---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 05/13/05:11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:41 AM - Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB (Michael Grass) 2. 06:59 AM - Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB (Ken Stribling) 3. 12:49 PM - Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB (Peter Rees) 4. 12:49 PM - Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB (Peter Rees) 5. 12:56 PM - Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB (Peter Rees) 6. 03:03 PM - Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB (Jos Okhuijsen) 7. 04:13 PM - Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB (Duncan McFadyean) 8. 04:25 PM - Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB (Paul McAllister) 9. 04:58 PM - Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold (JR (Bob) Gowing) 10. 06:10 PM - Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold (Paul McAllister) 11. 10:10 PM - Re: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB (Ken Stribling) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:41:19 AM PST US From: "Michael Grass" Subject: Re: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB --> Europa-List message posted by: "Michael Grass" Peter, I am defiantly interested in the PCB. Count me in as being interested. Michael Grass A266 Trigear ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Rees" Subject: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees" > > > If enough people are interested in the EZ-Trim (and if I'm not treading on > anyones toes), I would be happy to approach some of the board suppliers I > use at work to get some boards made (the ones you can make at home really > aren't of a standard you should use on an aircraft. > > I might at a push even assemble a couple of units for those who are > 'electronically challenged' > > If anyone is interested, drop me an E-mail - I guess we would need to > order > a minimum of 6 boards but the more we can order, the cheaper they'll be. > > Peter > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:21 AM PST US From: "Ken Stribling" Subject: RE: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB --> Europa-List message posted by: "Ken Stribling" Hi Pete: I would also like to be included But if you could buy the components and put it in kit form that would be even better, You may even get a better break say buying 10 at a time, I may be interested in 3 kits myself. Ken -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Rees Subject: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB --> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees" If enough people are interested in the EZ-Trim (and if I'm not treading on anyones toes), I would be happy to approach some of the board suppliers I use at work to get some boards made (the ones you can make at home really aren't of a standard you should use on an aircraft. I might at a push even assemble a couple of units for those who are 'electronically challenged' If anyone is interested, drop me an E-mail - I guess we would need to order a minimum of 6 boards but the more we can order, the cheaper they'll be. Peter ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:49:25 PM PST US From: "Peter Rees" Subject: Re: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB --> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees" Hi Michael I've had a quick look at the pcb file and downloaded the design software. The board looks pretty amateurish (and doesn't include the relays to switch the trim motor) - I may re-lay the board myslef (using the software I use at work) to give a much better quality of board - the current one doesn't have a solder mask or ident - very necessary for those with little soldering experience. I'll get a price for the 'as is' board and tell people this and the revised version (including the relays). We seem to be there with the quantity so, I'll give my manufacturer a call. Would you be after a bare board, kit or assembled unit? Regards Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Grass" Subject: Re: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Michael Grass" > > Peter, > > I am defiantly interested in the PCB. Count me in as being interested. > > Michael Grass > A266 Trigear > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter Rees" > To: > Subject: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB > > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees" >> >> >> If enough people are interested in the EZ-Trim (and if I'm not treading >> on >> anyones toes), I would be happy to approach some of the board suppliers I >> use at work to get some boards made (the ones you can make at home really >> aren't of a standard you should use on an aircraft. >> >> I might at a push even assemble a couple of units for those who are >> 'electronically challenged' >> >> If anyone is interested, drop me an E-mail - I guess we would need to >> order >> a minimum of 6 boards but the more we can order, the cheaper they'll be. >> >> Peter >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:49:25 PM PST US From: "Peter Rees" Subject: Re: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB --> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees" Hi Bob Still waiting to find out how many boards are going to be required and what stage of build people would want them - bare board, kit or tested. When I know, I'll be able to get a price from a low volume manufacturer - off the top of my head, the bare board will be about 20 - though thats a total (but reasonably educated guess) - main problem is that you need to recover the tooling costs - photoplots. The board from the original designer looks very crude (it has no solder mask or ident) and doesn't accomondate the relays (which the europa needs to switch the trim motor) - I may re-design the board and include the relays - would you be intersted in this? Would you rather a built and tested unit? Regards Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "JR (Bob) Gowing" Subject: Re: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB > --> Europa-List message posted by: "JR (Bob) Gowing" > > Dear Peter > > I have only just picked up on this possibility and the idea seems > fantastic. > After flying gliders I am going to find it tedious to hold altitudes in > power flying and, like the EIS's available we ought to be able to automate > holding altitude. > > I am certainly interested in the idea but have not done electronic work > myself. > > Approximately how much are boards likely to cost? > > J R (Bob) Gowing, UK Kit 327 in Australia and want to fit MOd 70 before > bonding top on > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter Rees" > To: > Subject: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB > > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees" > >> >> If enough people are interested in the EZ-Trim (and if I'm not treading >> on >> anyones toes), I would be happy to approach some of the board suppliers I >> use at work to get some boards made (the ones you can make at home really >> aren't of a standard you should use on an aircraft. >> >> I might at a push even assemble a couple of units for those who are >> 'electronically challenged' >> >> If anyone is interested, drop me an E-mail - I guess we would need to > order >> a minimum of 6 boards but the more we can order, the cheaper they'll be. >> >> Peter >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:56:20 PM PST US From: "Peter Rees" Subject: Re: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB --> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees" Hi Ken I've had a quick look at the pcb file and downloaded the design software. The board looks pretty amateurish (and doesn't include the relays to switch the trim motor) - I may re-lay the board myslef (using the software I use at work) to give a much better quality of board - the current one doesn't have a solder mask or ident - very necessary for those with little soldering experience. I'll get a price for the 'as is' board and tell people this and the revised version (including the relays). We seem to be there with the quantity so, I'll give my manufacturer a call. Would you be after a bare board, kit or assembled unit? Regards Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Stribling" Subject: RE: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Ken Stribling" > > > Hi Pete: I would also like to be included But if you could buy the > components and put it in kit form that would be even better, You may > even get a better break say buying 10 at a time, I may be interested in > 3 kits myself. > > Ken > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Rees > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees" > > > If enough people are interested in the EZ-Trim (and if I'm not treading > on > anyones toes), I would be happy to approach some of the board suppliers > I > use at work to get some boards made (the ones you can make at home > really > aren't of a standard you should use on an aircraft. > > I might at a push even assemble a couple of units for those who are > 'electronically challenged' > > If anyone is interested, drop me an E-mail - I guess we would need to > order > a minimum of 6 boards but the more we can order, the cheaper they'll be. > > Peter > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:03:12 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB From: "Jos Okhuijsen" --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jos Okhuijsen" Hi all, Just to change the key of the song song and get some relativation. Hate to do that, but i also feel kind of responsable if i did not say what i think needs to be said. Apart from not liking the idea of "soldering iron handicapped" fellow builders to work on flying controls with complications they do not grasp, there are some facts to be considered. On sun and fun i have been talking to almost every autopilot producer for experimentals. Both digitrack and trio do a simple attitude hold. Both use an extra servo. Both told me things i had not considered before. Both sell for a price which is a multiple of the thing we are talking about here. Why? Does the competition not work or? Imho, 1: The ray allen trim motor is probably just good enough for trim. I wonder if it has the reserves to fly the plane. 2: EZ-trim has had problems in the software, it is very difficult to get the software working without hunting or undershooting. Once there is a more or less stable situation, changes in the flying characteristics will not readjust the adjusting cycles. That was the main reason the Dutch abandoned the idea. 3: There is no insane command override other then the pilot. If, say because somebody opens a vent, hence pressure increase, hence correction, the plane ends up in a nose high attitude with 40 knots airspeed, it will still try to pith up. 4: There is no cut out on turbulence, insane commands might follow. Ok, let me have it Jos Okhuijsen ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:13:19 PM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <> You asked for it. But I agree. In particular, the trim motor in the Europa works hard against the high friction load in the anti servo tab drive system; I doubt that the trim motor would have sufficient continuous-rating to keep up with that. Try maintaining altitude by keeping throttle position fixed and "jabbing" manually at the trim in proportion to the magnitude of indication on the VSI; wouldn't work on mine (due mainly to delays introduced by loose tolerances in the trim tab system). Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jos Okhuijsen" Subject: Re: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jos Okhuijsen" > > Hi all, > Just to change the key of the song song and get some relativation. Hate to > do that, but i also feel kind of responsable if i did not say what i think > needs to be said. Apart from not liking the idea of "soldering iron > handicapped" fellow builders to work on flying controls with complications > they do not grasp, there are some facts to be considered. > > On sun and fun i have been talking to almost every autopilot producer for > experimentals. Both digitrack and trio do a simple attitude hold. Both use > an extra servo. Both told me things i had not considered before. Both sell > for a price which is a multiple of the thing we are talking about here. > Why? Does the competition not work or? > Imho, > 1: The ray allen trim motor is probably just good enough for trim. I > wonder if it has the reserves to fly the plane. > 2: EZ-trim has had problems in the software, it is very difficult to get > the software working without hunting or undershooting. Once there is a > more or less stable situation, changes in the flying characteristics will > not readjust the adjusting cycles. That was the main reason the Dutch > abandoned the idea. > 3: There is no insane command override other then the pilot. If, say > because somebody opens a vent, hence pressure increase, hence correction, > the plane ends up in a nose high attitude with 40 knots airspeed, it will > still try to pith up. > 4: There is no cut out on turbulence, insane commands might follow. > > Ok, let me have it > > Jos Okhuijsen > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:25:02 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Re: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Jos & all, A have a friend who built the EZ Trim for his RV6. After many months of trying to get it stabilized he gave up. He ultimately scraped all of the code, reworked the PID algorithm and added a solid state gyro in as an outer control loop. It took him nearly a year of tuning the PID factors in the altitude sensor and gyro to get it to work properly. It now works really well and I am fooling around with the code at the moment. Quite frankly I am expecting 6 months of experimenting / tuning to make it work in my Europa. I am more than willing to share once I have it figured out, but it is not easily transportable because it is based on a PIC 16F876 (not a STAMP) and you need the ability to be able to burn your own microprocessors. Paul ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:58:59 PM PST US From: "JR (Bob) Gowing" Subject: Re: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold --> Europa-List message posted by: "JR (Bob) Gowing" Steved Exciting stuff, but I have not seen mentioned yet that part of the system . the message about altitude changing must come from; is it the altimeter (nothing electric there), the transponder encoder ? Is this an easy connection? J R (Bob) Gowing, UK Kit 327 Australia, top itching to get into place. ----- Original Message ----- From: "EuropaForum" Subject: Re: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold > --> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaForum > > The Links to the two Ez-Trim sites are on the EuropaOwners Links page: > http://www.europaowners.org/links.php > under vendors. I've add links that I found of interest over the years. > If you have any links you would like to add, just click add link and > fill in the boxes. > The link will appear after I approve it, for reasons of spam control. > > Ordering the boards was easy. The lower the number the more they cost > each. > I think I ordered 20 and sold on the list at cost, They all were sold > in an hour > so if anyone is thinking of making an order they go fast. > > I looked at the design at http://www.cas-cozy.nl/efis/EZTrim.html I > didn't like it and thought it was to expensive also. > Someone on the list said they were no longer available, so It's a > mute point anyway. > > I've add the Ez-trim Zip download file to EuropaOwners. > http://www.europaowners.org/viewtopic.php?p=6023#6023 > it is also available on the Ez-trim page > http://hometown.aol.com/ccady/eztrim.htm > > Having the files on the Owners page is just incase the Ez-trim home > page goes away. > > Chat later, > Steved > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:10:53 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Re: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Bob, The system uses an MPX4115 pressure transducer which should be connected to the static system. ----- Original Message ----- From: "JR (Bob) Gowing" > Steved > > Exciting stuff, but I have not seen mentioned yet that part of the system > . > the message about altitude changing must come from; is it the altimeter > (nothing electric there), the transponder encoder ? Is this an easy > connection? > > J R (Bob) Gowing, UK Kit 327 Australia, top itching to get into place. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:10:57 PM PST US From: "Ken Stribling" Subject: RE: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB --> Europa-List message posted by: "Ken Stribling" >>> -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Rees Subject: Re: Europa-List: EZ-TRIM Altitude Hold PCB --> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees" [-] >>> Hi Ken I've had a quick look at the pcb file and downloaded the design software. The board looks pretty amateurish (and doesn't include the relays to switch the trim motor) - I may re-lay the board myslef (using the software I use at work) to give a much better quality of board - the current one doesn't have a solder mask or ident - very necessary for those with little soldering experience. I'll get a price for the 'as is' board and tell people this and the revised version (including the relays). We seem to be there with the quantity so, I'll give my manufacturer a call. Would you be after a bare board, kit or assembled unit? Regards Peter [-] 3 kits please