---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 05/22/05: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:48 AM - Re: Funny fuel gauge (Lance Sandford) 2. 06:44 AM - Re: Funny fuel gauge Another question (EuropaXSA276@AOL.COM) 3. 08:09 AM - Correct inner tube (Paul McAllister) 4. 09:48 AM - MOD 70 Question About the Spacer (EuropaXSA276@aol.com) 5. 10:22 AM - Re: Funny fuel gauge Another question (Matthew Carpenter) 6. 10:22 AM - Re: Funny fuel gauge Another question (Matthew Carpenter) 7. 10:52 AM - Re: Correct inner tube (Jim Brown) 8. 11:12 AM - Re: Funny fuel gauge Another question (Jim Brown) 9. 01:14 PM - Hat Dropping for Wednesday (Bryan Allsop) 10. 01:25 PM - Re: Funny fuel gauge Another question (Bryan Allsop) 11. 01:31 PM - Re: Fw: G CCUL Temps and Fuel (Tony Bale) 12. 01:52 PM - Re: Funny fuel gauge (John & Paddy Wigney) 13. 02:21 PM - External Power (Troy Maynor) 14. 02:42 PM - Ez trim - Update (Peter Rees) 15. 04:16 PM - Re: Ez trim - Update () 16. 05:57 PM - Pimp my Glide (SteveD) 17. 06:20 PM - Re: Pimp my Glide (Chris Beck) 18. 07:07 PM - 914 Cooling Air Baffle, any flying with one? (Ronald J. Parigoris) 19. 10:04 PM - Re: Pimp my Glide (flyinggpa@comcast.net (Cliff Shaw)) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:48:11 AM PST US From: "Lance Sandford" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Funny fuel gauge --> Europa-List message posted by: "Lance Sandford" By installing Curtis drain valves in your drain lines you can connect the Curtis Quick drain hose to a drain valve and hold the clear plastic drain hose against the side of the fuselage to 'see' the fuel level in the tank. Paint 'calibtation' marks on the side of the fuselage. I also have dual capacitance units and a flow meter. Lance Sandford Builder 471 in OZ > "A valuable back-up gauge we don't have, but many birds do, is > the ability > to peer into the top of the tank to see what's there." > > Required or not, IMHO it is prudent to have a sight gauge to > verify you are full. I > have a Monowheel with fuel drains aft of the tank. I will have my > sight gauge plumbed > off the right drain up the right to the top ending at filler. > Easy for left seat to > see. > > Ron Parigoris > A-265 > N4211W > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:44:41 AM PST US From: EuropaXSA276@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Funny fuel gauge Another question --> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com I have been following this thread closely and noted that many of you have installed DUAL capacitance probes on your birds. Honestly I felt that only one installed in the pilot side along with the factory sight gauge would be sufficient. I would like to hear opinion on why the dual probe set up. Thanks! Brian Skelly Texas Europa # A276 TriGear See My build photos at: http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:09:17 AM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Europa-List: Correct inner tube --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Hi all, I need a new inner tube to fit my 7.00 x 600 MCreary Airtrack tire. I have read in previous postings that the MCreary 700/800 inner tube won't fit the Europa rim properly. Can anyone confirm that this is correct and if so, suggest a source for the inner tube other than sending over to Europa in the UK for it. thanks, Paul ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:48:06 AM PST US From: EuropaXSA276@aol.com Subject: Europa-List: MOD 70 Question About the Spacer --> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com Builders and Riders. I have received my mod 70 kit and am back to construction in chapter 20. The Mod 70 instructions are clearly written for replacing the existing arm on enclosed fuselages. Not an easy task to bounce from build manual to mod instruction sheet for us new builders. Hopefully E04 will have a revised chapter 20 out soon. My question is about the spacer collar used in place of the old 001 worm gear clamp. I like the idea of the clamp over the spacer because it affords some adjustment of the weights positioning and balance. Is there a reason that E04 chose to replace the clamp? Was this part the cause < or part of the cause> for the system failure? I'm really not clear what happened and what parts had failed and cause the issuance of the mandatory AD / Mod. Thanks in advance! Brian Skelly Texas Europa # A276 TriGear See My build photos at: http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:22:12 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Funny fuel gauge Another question From: Matthew Carpenter --> Europa-List message posted by: Matthew Carpenter It is normal for the site gage to go down in flight? Let me re-word that... When setting on the ground the site gage works, but in flight you see no fuel in the site gage. Also, when we fill up the tank, we have to "burp" the tank.. The site gage will be full, and if we raise the co-pilot side wing up, then air rushes out. The side gage will go down, and we can add another ~1 US gallon of fuel. Anybody else have this kind of problem? Matt Carpenter N138WJ A138 EuropaXSA276@aol.com wrote: >--> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com > >I have been following this thread closely and noted that many of you have >installed DUAL capacitance probes on your birds. > Honestly I felt that only one installed in the pilot side along with the >factory sight gauge would be sufficient. >I would like to hear opinion on why the dual probe set up. > >Thanks! > >Brian Skelly >Texas >Europa # A276 TriGear >See My build photos at: >http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:22:12 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Funny fuel gauge Another question From: Matthew Carpenter --> Europa-List message posted by: Matthew Carpenter It is normal for the site gage to go down in flight? Let me re-word that... When setting on the ground the site gage works, but in flight you see no fuel in the site gage. Also, when we fill up the tank, we have to "burp" the tank.. The site gage will be full, and if we raise the co-pilot side wing up, then air rushes out. The side gage will go down, and we can add another ~1 US gallon of fuel. Anybody else have this kind of problem? Matt Carpenter N138WJ A138 EuropaXSA276@aol.com wrote: >--> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com > >I have been following this thread closely and noted that many of you have >installed DUAL capacitance probes on your birds. > Honestly I felt that only one installed in the pilot side along with the >factory sight gauge would be sufficient. >I would like to hear opinion on why the dual probe set up. > >Thanks! > >Brian Skelly >Texas >Europa # A276 TriGear >See My build photos at: >http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:52:20 AM PST US From: Jim Brown Subject: Re: Europa-List: Correct inner tube --> Europa-List message posted by: Jim Brown Paul, Get a copy of trade a plane. There are several tire companies that advertise in it. Dresser Tire co comes to mind. Call the 800 # and they will tell you what you need, and will be happy to ship!!!!!!! Jim Brown N398JB Paul McAllister wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" > > Hi all, > > I need a new inner tube to fit my 7.00 x 600 MCreary Airtrack tire. I have read in previous postings that the MCreary 700/800 inner tube won't fit the Europa rim properly. Can anyone confirm that this is correct and if so, suggest a source for the inner tube other than sending over to Europa in the UK for it. > > thanks, Paul > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:12:08 AM PST US From: Jim Brown Subject: Re: Europa-List: Funny fuel gauge Another question --> Europa-List message posted by: Jim Brown Matt, I have the stock sight installed in our mono wheel. In flight it shows the correct amount of fuel in the tank and as we fly the fuel level goes down as the fuel is burned. The sight gage is plumbed into the bottom tank outlet as per plans, from there it goes to the top of the fuselage vent located on top of the fuselage. It would appear that your sight gage is being pressurized by ram air as you are flying, which is forcing the fuel in the sight gage back into the tank. On the ground there is no ram air pressure hence the gage works. Also since you have to "burp" when filling the tank I thank you have a loop in the tubing some where, or fuel is getting trapped somewhere in the line, maybe the line has a"kink" in it and is restricting the line. Jim Brown N398JB Matthew Carpenter wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: Matthew Carpenter > > It is normal for the site gage to go down in flight? > Let me re-word that... > When setting on the ground the site gage works, but in flight you see no > fuel in the site gage. > Also, when we fill up the tank, we have to "burp" the tank.. The site > gage will be full, and if we raise the co-pilot side wing up, > then air rushes out. The side gage will go down, and we can add another > ~1 US gallon of fuel. > Anybody else have this kind of problem? > > Matt Carpenter > N138WJ > A138 > > EuropaXSA276@aol.com wrote: > > >--> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com > > > >I have been following this thread closely and noted that many of you have > >installed DUAL capacitance probes on your birds. > > Honestly I felt that only one installed in the pilot side along with the > >factory sight gauge would be sufficient. > >I would like to hear opinion on why the dual probe set up. > > > >Thanks! > > > >Brian Skelly > >Texas > >Europa # A276 TriGear > >See My build photos at: > >http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:14:12 PM PST US From: "Bryan Allsop" Subject: Europa-List: Hat Dropping for Wednesday --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bryan Allsop" To Hat Droppers, It looks like Wednesday's weather for most of England should be OK for a fly-in. Though those in the West will have to be home by supper time. Having mislaid this month's Pilot mag, I am not sure where to propose, but somewhere South Eastish should give the best weather. Any suggestions will be appreciated, otherwise - watch this space. Regards to all. Bryan Allsop ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:25:26 PM PST US From: "Bryan Allsop" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Funny fuel gauge Another question --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bryan Allsop" Matt, Yes my fuel gauge is the standard sight gauge per the build plans. It works absolutely fine in flight, and on the ground. It shows accurate readings in both conditions. The only exception being when I refuel. I need to blow it back from the top air vent using a plastic tube to make sure that the filling reading is correct. I may try lifting the passenger wing next time to see if I can burp some more in. It could be usefull! Cheers Bryan Allsop G BYSA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Brown" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Funny fuel gauge Another question > --> Europa-List message posted by: Jim Brown > > Matt, > > I have the stock sight installed in our mono wheel. In flight it shows the > correct amount of fuel in the tank and as we fly the fuel level goes down > as > the fuel is burned. The sight gage is plumbed into the bottom tank outlet > as > per plans, from there it goes to the top of the fuselage vent located on > top > of the fuselage. > > It would appear that your sight gage is being pressurized by ram air as > you > are flying, which is forcing the fuel in the sight gage back into the > tank. > On the ground there is no ram air pressure hence the gage works. > > Also since you have to "burp" when filling the tank I thank you have a > loop > in the tubing some where, or fuel is getting trapped somewhere in the > line, > maybe the line has a"kink" in it and is restricting the line. > > Jim Brown > N398JB > > Matthew Carpenter wrote: > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: Matthew Carpenter >> >> It is normal for the site gage to go down in flight? >> Let me re-word that... >> When setting on the ground the site gage works, but in flight you see no >> fuel in the site gage. >> Also, when we fill up the tank, we have to "burp" the tank.. The site >> gage will be full, and if we raise the co-pilot side wing up, >> then air rushes out. The side gage will go down, and we can add another >> ~1 US gallon of fuel. >> Anybody else have this kind of problem? >> >> Matt Carpenter >> N138WJ >> A138 >> >> EuropaXSA276@aol.com wrote: >> >> >--> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com >> > >> >I have been following this thread closely and noted that many of you >> >have >> >installed DUAL capacitance probes on your birds. >> > Honestly I felt that only one installed in the pilot side along with >> > the >> >factory sight gauge would be sufficient. >> >I would like to hear opinion on why the dual probe set up. >> > >> >Thanks! >> > >> >Brian Skelly >> >Texas >> >Europa # A276 TriGear >> >See My build photos at: >> >http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:31:11 PM PST US From: "Tony Bale" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fw: G CCUL Temps and Fuel --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony Bale" Tim, Thanks for your comments, we have done a few more flights still with low temps after the 100 deg C warm up (which is why we think we don't have a guage problem) and 'branded'super unleaded type fuel. Anybody else with XS cowlings got any feedback on your running temps ? Tony. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Timothy.P.Ward" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fw: G CCUL Temps and Fuel > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Timothy.P.Ward" > > Tony, > You should run the oil temp between 90 -110 at 5000 rpm according to the book. You may have an indication problem? On my monowheel (classic cowls) in summer I have no problem in achieving this but in winter I have to put some aluminum tape over the oil cooler to obtain 90-110 temps. My oil cooler is situated under the spinner and not piggy backing behind the water radiator, due to having a Rotax 912S. > 50 - 60 oil temp is too low. > I run on 96 oct mogas from Mobil. > Cheers, > Tim > > > > > From: "Tony Bale" > > Date: 2005/05/14 Sat PM 10:37:26 GMT+12:00 > > To: > > Subject: Europa-List: Fw: G CCUL Temps and Fuel > > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony Bale" > > > > Fellow Europe types greetings, > > We have at long last received our permit and managed to get some flying in on UL, pretty impressed too !! Couple of points some of you might be able to shed some light on if you please. > > > > Firstly having thoroughly warmed the aircraft to 100 deg C both oil and water, within minutes of take off both are back around 50 - 60 at 5000 RPM, any lower revs and the guages hardly register, is this as others experience ? We are begining to consider plans to restrict the air outlets from the radiators. The ambient at ground level has been circa 11 - 13 deg C during these flights at between 2 - 3000 feet. > > > > Secondly, considering fuel. Currently we simply use the cheap unleaded from Tesco's, in my previous life racing cars we always mixed the unleaded with higher grades and octanes, what do you guys run and have you noticed any improvements in performance / economy / condition of oil following change / plugs etc ? > > > > Any thoughts / experiences greatly received > > > > Regards > > > > Tony. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:52:22 PM PST US From: John & Paddy Wigney Subject: Europa-List: Re: Funny fuel gauge --> Europa-List message posted by: John & Paddy Wigney Hi Matt, I have the 912S and I have one flow meter only. The flow meter is located near the firewall before the tee which supplies each carburettor. I located a tee with the restrictor and the fuel return line at the high point (to catch any vapour)in the fuel system between the mechanical fuel pump and the flow meter. For accuracy, it is good to avoid bends in the hose at the inlet and outlet of the flow meter. It is also important to fit a pressure pulse damper at the flow meter inlet or outlet (location is not important). If you do not have a damper, you will get erratic flow readout due to pulses from the fuel pump and irregular opening of the carburettor needle valves. Matronics has a very nice item at http://www.matronics.com/fuelchec/dampener.html for USD 47.00. However, I chose instead to use a tee with a u-loop of fuel hose with a blank end fitting to create a trapped air bubble to do the same job. It works fine. If you have a 914, perhaps you should talk to others who have been down this road regarding one or two flow meters. Cheers, John <<<<< Time: 10:24:35 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Funny fuel gauge From: Matthew Carpenter Did you have to put two fuel flow meters on your EIS?? I called them, and they said because it's a 914 and has return fuel that I needed two of them. Matt Carpenter >>>>> ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:21:12 PM PST US From: "Troy Maynor" Subject: Europa-List: External Power --> Europa-List message posted by: "Troy Maynor" Hi Gang, I think some of you have used the single pin Piper external power receptacle for your birds. I have a couple questions about the subject. Do I need to install a contactor or diodes or any such. The one on Aero Bobs site shows the Cessna style and I don't know what is best to do now that I already have a Piper style installed. I would be nice if I did not need another contactor but then again I don't need to see an arc in the cockpit where mine is installed. Maybe I just answered my own question. Also, what gauge wire, No.4? Troy Maynor N120EU Europa Monowheel Classic Left to finish: Paint,interior,engine install, wiring. Panel done! Weaverville, NC USA ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:42:44 PM PST US From: "Peter Rees" Subject: Europa-List: Ez trim - Update --> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees" Hi Guys Sorry about going quiet on the subject for a few days - been busy with some flying and fitting the spats (and boy does the aeroplane look fab!). I've had a price for the boards 'as is' from my PCB manufacturer but not the rough and ready ones that you see photos of - the price is for a board with solder resist layers on both sides and an Ident layer (white print to show you where the components go). If we can get 10 of this type of boards ordered, the price would be about 14.50 (which includes me sending it on to you if you're in the UK). I've drawn up the original circuit design and will post that onto the website in a day or two - at the moment, I'm trying to work out a way to 'lock out' the alt hold unit if the pilot presses the trim switch - or at least so that the switch and alt hold unit don't compete (and blow the trip!) - I'll get on with this in a few days (when the boss is out of the office!). If anyone is intersted in getting hold of the 'as is' alt hold board, let me know - I need to order at least 10 as the tooling cost (plotting) is split across the batch. Peter ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:16:03 PM PST US From: Subject: RE: Europa-List: Ez trim - Update --> Europa-List message posted by: Hi Peter Count me in for a board. Is anyone ordering the components as a package? If not, I can get them from Mouser or Digikey and send a package to those who want them. Please do the upgrade as you see fit. How about a simple switch that has ez trim one way with regular trim the other? I don't conceive of the need to have both operational at the same time. Tom Friedland A 079 N96V -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Rees Subject: Europa-List: Ez trim - Update --> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees" --> Hi Guys Sorry about going quiet on the subject for a few days - been busy with some flying and fitting the spats (and boy does the aeroplane look fab!). I've had a price for the boards 'as is' from my PCB manufacturer but not the rough and ready ones that you see photos of - the price is for a board with solder resist layers on both sides and an Ident layer (white print to show you where the components go). If we can get 10 of this type of boards ordered, the price would be about 14.50 (which includes me sending it on to you if you're in the UK). I've drawn up the original circuit design and will post that onto the website in a day or two - at the moment, I'm trying to work out a way to 'lock out' the alt hold unit if the pilot presses the trim switch - or at least so that the switch and alt hold unit don't compete (and blow the trip!) - I'll get on with this in a few days (when the boss is out of the office!). If anyone is intersted in getting hold of the 'as is' alt hold board, let me know - I need to order at least 10 as the tooling cost (plotting) is split across the batch. Peter -- -- ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:57:20 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Pimp my Glide From: "SteveD" --> Europa-List message posted by: "SteveD" Well my daughter is back from her first year at Embry-Riddle, and my son has been helping with the panel. After one to many nights watching MTVS Pimp my Ride, we went in the garage and made the iPlane. A mac mini will be built into the panel as the entertainment center. 60 gig of Itunes, and it plays DVDs if the Mrs gets bored. Data from the AF-2500 can be read and monitored in real time. Updates to the EFIS sport can be made right from the plane. Weather and flight data can be saved for review during flight. The computer is on my home wireless network so when the planes in the garage I can login to it. The interface is a 7 inch high bright touch screen, the unit is also taking voice commands in the garage quite well. We'll see about in flight, through the head set. http://www.europaowners.org/Panel Chat later, Steved I know.... it's a sickness..... ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:20:19 PM PST US From: Chris Beck Subject: Re: Europa-List: Pimp my Glide --> Europa-List message posted by: Chris Beck Hey, Steve, What campus and major is your daughter going to/taking? My wife, Susan and myself are both Aeronautical Engineering grads, class of '92 from the Prescott campus. Currently, we are (very slowly) building an XS Mono, A159. We've had a bit of a course diversion, that being our 2-1/2 year old son, but we're starting to get back on the proper radial and headed toward the end target. The good part of this delay is we've got Nathan (our son) properly 'geeked out' on airplanes already, so he is a future propeller-head. Best regards! Chris Beck SteveD wrote: >--> Europa-List message posted by: "SteveD" > >Well my daughter is back from her first year at Embry-Riddle, and my son has been helping with the panel. After one to many nights watching MTVS Pimp my Ride, we went in the garage and made the iPlane. >A mac mini will be built into the panel as the entertainment center. 60 gig of Itunes, and it plays DVDs if the Mrs gets bored. Data from the AF-2500 can be read and monitored in real time. Updates to the EFIS sport can be made right from the plane. Weather and flight data can be saved for review during flight. The computer is on my home wireless network so when the planes in the garage I can login to it. >The interface is a 7 inch high bright touch screen, the unit is also taking voice commands in the garage quite well. We'll see about in flight, through the head set. > >http://www.europaowners.org/Panel > >Chat later, >Steved >I know.... it's a sickness..... > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:20 PM PST US From: "Ronald J. Parigoris" Subject: Europa-List: 914 Cooling Air Baffle, any flying with one? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Ronald J. Parigoris" Is anyone flying with a Rotax Cooling Air baffle on a 914 XS Monowheel? What's your thoughts, how does it work? Does it fit in standard Europa cowl? Thx. Ron Parigoris A-265 N4211W ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:10 PM PST US From: flyinggpa@comcast.net (Cliff Shaw) Subject: Re: Europa-List: Pimp my Glide --> Europa-List message posted by: flyinggpa@comcast.net (Cliff Shaw) Steve Wow, I am impressed. You have really out done your self on making the "hottest" panel. I want to see it written up in Kit Planes when you have it flying. -- Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds WA 98020 425 776 5555 -------------- Original message -------------- > --> Europa-List message posted by: "SteveD" > > Well my daughter is back from her first year at Embry-Riddle, and my son has > been helping with the panel. After one to many nights watching MTVS Pimp my > Ride, we went in the garage and made the iPlane. > A mac mini will be built into the panel as the entertainment center. 60 gig of > Itunes, and it plays DVDs if the Mrs gets bored. Data from the AF-2500 can be > read and monitored in real time. Updates to the EFIS sport can be made right > from the plane. Weather and flight data can be saved for review during flight. > The computer is on my home wireless network so when the planes in the garage I > can login to it. > The interface is a 7 inch high bright touch screen, the unit is also taking > voice commands in the garage quite well. We'll see about in flight, through the > head set. > > http://www.europaowners.org/Panel > > Chat later, > Steved > I know.... it's a sickness..... > ---------------- > Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ > > > > > > Steve Wow, I am impressed. You have really out done your self on making the "hottest" panel. I want to see it written up in Kit Planes when you have it flying. -- Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds WA 98020 425 776 5555 -------------- Original message -------------- -- Europa-List message posted by: "SteveD" Well my daughter is back from her first year at Embry-Riddle, and my son has been helping with the panel. After one to many nights watching MTVS Pimp my Ride, we went in the garage and made the iPlane. A mac mini will be built into the panel as the entertainment center. 60 gig of Itunes, and it plays DVDs if the Mrs gets bored. Data from the AF-2500 can be read and monitored in real time. Updates to the EFIS sport can be made right from the plane. Weather and flight data can be saved for review during flight. The computer is on my home wireless network so when the planes in the garage I can login to it. The interface is a 7 inch high bright touch screen, the unit is also taking voice commands in the garage quite well. We'll see about in flight, through the head set. http://www.europaowners.org/Panel Chat later, Steved I know.... it's a sickness..... ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/