---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 05/26/05: 31 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:45 AM - Re: PFA Feedback (R.C.Harrison) 2. 01:27 AM - Re: PFA Feedback (Alan Burrows) 3. 01:36 AM - Re: PFA Feedback (Jeremy Davey) 4. 01:40 AM - PFA feedback (paul atkinson) 5. 02:17 AM - europa club subscriptions running out (Rowland Carson) 6. 03:31 AM - Re: PFA feedback () 7. 04:13 AM - FW: PFA Feedback (Alan Burrows) 8. 05:05 AM - Re: FW: PFA Feedback () 9. 05:25 AM - Increasing Max T/O weight in Holland to 1450 lbs/ 657 kgs (Tim Weert) 10. 06:23 AM - Re: Re: FW: PFA Feedback () 11. 06:41 AM - Re: Increasing Max T/O weight in Holland to 1450 lbs/ 657 kgs (Fergus Kyle) 12. 06:58 AM - off topic - PFA (Fergus Kyle) 13. 07:26 AM - Mod 70 Weights touching the guide strips (EuropaXSA276@aol.com) 14. 07:32 AM - Re: europa club subscriptions running out (Paul Boulet) 15. 07:41 AM - Re: europa club subscriptions running out (Paul Boulet) 16. 08:18 AM - Re: europa club subscriptions running out (owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com) 17. 08:41 AM - Re: europa club subscriptions running out (David Glauser) 18. 09:09 AM - Re: europa club subscriptions running out (Cory Emberson) 19. 09:20 AM - The price of Bacon Butties (Bryan Allsop) 20. 10:59 AM - WAS Re: PFA Feedback NOW :- Voluntary Services. For British consumption only. (R.C.Harrison) 21. 11:44 AM - Re: WAS Re: PFA Feedback NOW :- Voluntary Services. For British ... (DuaneFamly@aol.com) 22. 12:49 PM - Re: Re: FW: PFA Feedback (Garry) 23. 01:29 PM - Re: europa club subscriptions running out (Rowland Carson) 24. 01:29 PM - europa club newsletter [was: europa club subscriptions running (Rowland Carson) 25. 01:29 PM - europa club membership secretary retirement (Rowland Carson) 26. 01:33 PM - Re: europa club subscriptions running out (Paul Boulet) 27. 01:45 PM - Re: europa club subscriptions running out (Cory Emberson) 28. 03:48 PM - Re: WAS Re: PFA Feedback NOW :- Voluntary Services. (N55XS) 29. 03:53 PM - Re: europa club subscriptions running out (Paul Boulet) 30. 04:13 PM - Re: europa club subscriptions running out (Cory Emberson) 31. 08:22 PM - Re: The price of Bacon Butties (Fergus Kyle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:45:51 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: PFA Feedback --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! All At the expense of continuing this debacle I have to agree with Mark and Neville, also everyone else has valuable contributions in stating their opinions but in addition it has to be remembered that all this business about an "association representing it's members" is somewhat a sham. The PFA is in my understanding a regulatory branch of the CAA where membership is compulsory and therefore in effect supposedly a friendly licensing authority for "Flying for fun". For my humble opinion there isn't a lot of friendliness about at present on this issue and "others currently going through the system." The PFA are missing an opportunity to put out a more human face on this blessed issue. It is preferring to put it's head "you know where" and continue to allow the "subject jerk" page space and so called "CREDITS" which ultimately gives him promotional status which is the kind of "payment" he enjoys, along with the fact that as a result of the "associated allegations" there is a huge sum of money been taken out of the aspirations of many would be builders pockets and the industry that would have swelled the PFA "membership base" the most important goal needed. I would call for some sanity to now be engaged and request the PFA to be considerably and more promptly engaged with the "brotherhood and spirit" of the diverse talents amongst homebuilders and so be more prepared to understand the kind of expense and frustrations we have to bear by lots of the actions it takes. In other systems of regulation our activity is classed as "experimental" which carries a degree of awe but not necessarily the level of engineering respect the industry should have. The PFA should be looking to embrace a position somewhere between that and which currently prevails even at the expense of loosing a few pictures! Sincerely Bob Harrison (Not loosing my head like all around me YET! But there'll be a couple of AGM's of interesting content!) -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of NevEyre@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: PFA Feedback --> Europa-List message posted by: NevEyre@aol.com Hi Roger / Gerry / Jeremy / Alan / William / Bob / et all........ I have been just as pissed off that KW is getting photo's ANYWHERE, not just in PF [ I would bet real money he IS getting money from the PFA] , and there are DOZENS of you out there , who I have spoken with recently, who feel the same. HOW ABOUT ANOTHER FORM OF ATTACK ? Whether he is getting money for the photo's, it is a comercial venture he is operating, do we know anyone in the C.A.A. who can look into the legality of useing PFA Permit aircraft, and C.A.A. non public transport cat' aircraft for aerial work ? I know of many ''sorties'' carried out in the Europa demonstrators, if he ever recieved ANY money for ANY of those photo's, can we ''get the ba**ard'' ? You can also be sure, he will be at Kemble this year, and the PFA will take his photo's, unless we can get enough members to make enough noise ? At the AGM, can someone propose that KW's work is vetoed, and get enough members there to force that through ? Let's pull together on this ? Cheers, Nev. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:27:38 AM PST US From: "Alan Burrows" Subject: RE: Europa-List: PFA Feedback --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows" Bob I fully agree with your comments, but shouldn't we be addressing these to Graham Newby not just our own group? I have passed on my feelings in the strongest possible manner. I have told him that these "free" photo's he has been receiving were in fact paid for by Europa and in turn us. even the very expensive digital camera he managed to walk away with was bought by Europa! Its only by directing our deep felt concerns directly to him that things may change, IMHO So come on guys lets stand up and be counted on this one. Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of R.C.Harrison Subject: RE: Europa-List: PFA Feedback --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" --> Hi! All At the expense of continuing this debacle I have to agree with Mark and Neville, also everyone else has valuable contributions in stating their opinions but in addition it has to be remembered that all this business about an "association representing it's members" is somewhat a sham. The PFA is in my understanding a regulatory branch of the CAA where membership is compulsory and therefore in effect supposedly a friendly licensing authority for "Flying for fun". For my humble opinion there isn't a lot of friendliness about at present on this issue and "others currently going through the system." The PFA are missing an opportunity to put out a more human face on this blessed issue. It is preferring to put it's head "you know where" and continue to allow the "subject jerk" page space and so called "CREDITS" which ultimately gives him promotional status which is the kind of "payment" he enjoys, along with the fact that as a result of the "associated allegations" there is a huge sum of money been taken out of the aspirations of many would be builders pockets and the industry that would have swelled the PFA "membership base" the most important goal needed. I would call for some sanity to now be engaged and request the PFA to be considerably and more promptly engaged with the "brotherhood and spirit" of the diverse talents amongst homebuilders and so be more prepared to understand the kind of expense and frustrations we have to bear by lots of the actions it takes. In other systems of regulation our activity is classed as "experimental" which carries a degree of awe but not necessarily the level of engineering respect the industry should have. The PFA should be looking to embrace a position somewhere between that and which currently prevails even at the expense of loosing a few pictures! Sincerely Bob Harrison (Not loosing my head like all around me YET! But there'll be a couple of AGM's of interesting content!) -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of NevEyre@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: PFA Feedback --> Europa-List message posted by: NevEyre@aol.com Hi Roger / Gerry / Jeremy / Alan / William / Bob / et all........ I have been just as pissed off that KW is getting photo's ANYWHERE, not just in PF [ I would bet real money he IS getting money from the PFA] , and there are DOZENS of you out there , who I have spoken with recently, who feel the same. HOW ABOUT ANOTHER FORM OF ATTACK ? Whether he is getting money for the photo's, it is a comercial venture he is operating, do we know anyone in the C.A.A. who can look into the legality of useing PFA Permit aircraft, and C.A.A. non public transport cat' aircraft for aerial work ? I know of many ''sorties'' carried out in the Europa demonstrators, if he ever recieved ANY money for ANY of those photo's, can we ''get the ba**ard'' ? You can also be sure, he will be at Kemble this year, and the PFA will take his photo's, unless we can get enough members to make enough noise ? At the AGM, can someone propose that KW's work is vetoed, and get enough members there to force that through ? Let's pull together on this ? Cheers, Nev. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:36:53 AM PST US From: "Jeremy Davey" Subject: RE: Europa-List: PFA Feedback --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jeremy Davey" Bob, Some stuff there I agree with, and some that I'm afraid I violently disagree with! The PFA isn't a subsidiary of the PFA, nor is it a monopoly. The system is that you can build a plane and fly it on a CAA Permit to Fly. The costs charged by the CAA for allowing you to do this are very high, so amateur builders have clubbed together and formed the PFA to reduce this cost. If you don't like the PFA system, you are very welcome to: 1) go direct to the CAA, or 2) try to change the PFA system I'm trying to do 2), hence I stood for the EC. However, I'm constantly staggered by the number of folks who are happy to lay into the PFA but run a mile as soon as the suggestion is raised that they lift a finger to help fix the problem! If this issue is to be won with the PFA, it will require effective lobbying. Someone needs to organise that, and I don't have the time to do anything more than advise (plane-building, getting married, already helping run the Europa Club, already trying to sort other things out at the PFA, moving house, nowhere near retired, etc.). In short, are you volunteering? Regards, Jeremy Jeremy Davey Europa Monowheel 537M G-EZZA Europa Club Vice-Chairman, Webmaster, PFA NC Representative PFA EC Member "If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, then it is possible you haven't grasped the severity of the situation." Tail done Standard XS wings with mods underway CM installed in fuse (with airbrakes fittings) 1400 build hours to date Intended fit: Rotax 914 turbo, Airmaster CS fully-feathering prop Lots of lights, buttons, switches, gizmos, and alarms -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of R.C.Harrison Subject: RE: Europa-List: PFA Feedback --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! All At the expense of continuing this debacle I have to agree with Mark and Neville, also everyone else has valuable contributions in stating their opinions but in addition it has to be remembered that all this business about an "association representing it's members" is somewhat a sham. The PFA is in my understanding a regulatory branch of the CAA where membership is compulsory and therefore in effect supposedly a friendly licensing authority for "Flying for fun". For my humble opinion there isn't a lot of friendliness about at present on this issue and "others currently going through the system." The PFA are missing an opportunity to put out a more human face on this blessed issue. It is preferring to put it's head "you know where" and continue to allow the "subject jerk" page space and so called "CREDITS" which ultimately gives him promotional status which is the kind of "payment" he enjoys, along with the fact that as a result of the "associated allegations" there is a huge sum of money been taken out of the aspirations of many would be builders pockets and the industry that would have swelled the PFA "membership base" the most important goal needed. I would call for some sanity to now be engaged and request the PFA to be considerably and more promptly engaged with the "brotherhood and spirit" of the diverse talents amongst homebuilders and so be more prepared to understand the kind of expense and frustrations we have to bear by lots of the actions it takes. In other systems of regulation our activity is classed as "experimental" which carries a degree of awe but not necessarily the level of engineering respect the industry should have. The PFA should be looking to embrace a position somewhere between that and which currently prevails even at the expense of loosing a few pictures! Sincerely Bob Harrison (Not loosing my head like all around me YET! But there'll be a couple of AGM's of interesting content!) -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of NevEyre@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: PFA Feedback --> Europa-List message posted by: NevEyre@aol.com Hi Roger / Gerry / Jeremy / Alan / William / Bob / et all........ I have been just as pissed off that KW is getting photo's ANYWHERE, not just in PF [ I would bet real money he IS getting money from the PFA] , and there are DOZENS of you out there , who I have spoken with recently, who feel the same. HOW ABOUT ANOTHER FORM OF ATTACK ? Whether he is getting money for the photo's, it is a comercial venture he is operating, do we know anyone in the C.A.A. who can look into the legality of useing PFA Permit aircraft, and C.A.A. non public transport cat' aircraft for aerial work ? I know of many ''sorties'' carried out in the Europa demonstrators, if he ever recieved ANY money for ANY of those photo's, can we ''get the ba**ard'' ? You can also be sure, he will be at Kemble this year, and the PFA will take his photo's, unless we can get enough members to make enough noise ? At the AGM, can someone propose that KW's work is vetoed, and get enough members there to force that through ? Let's pull together on this ? Cheers, Nev. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:40:31 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: PFA feedback From: "paul atkinson" --> Europa-List message posted by: "paul atkinson" Peter Here is my effort. Regards Paul Dear Graham, I would like to increase your list by one. I find that your response below is unsatifactory, if not insulting. The PFA is about its members, and their opinions matter. The magazine is incidental to the argument. There are no doubt many good photographers out there who could, and do, contribute to it. I do not believe anyone would miss Wilson's contribution (if that's what it is)nor do I believe the magazine would suffer without it. This industry is populated almost entirely by honest and trustworthy people, and I for one would like to keep it that way. The PFA as our representative body should be taking a lead in this and doing everything in its power to exclude the likes of Wilson from it. Please take note. Regards Paul Atkinson Roger Firstly may I say that the " list " is 2 people. I must commiserate with anybody who lost money or goods through the collapse of Europa, and may I say that apart from the not inconsiderable time we, the PFA, spent discussing the airworthiness issues with the CAA and the processes we put in place before Europa was rejuvinated, we also lost some $B!r(B1000 in advertising revenue that was unpaid. Having said all this, the collapse of Europa was a commercial business issue. Keith Wilson has for many years supplied excellent photographs for the magazine, and all at no cost to the Association. In fact Popular Flying would have been a much worse publication over the years without Keiths input. I hope this satisfies your request. Best regards Graham Newby Chief Executive Popular Flying Association 01280 846786 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:17:18 AM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: Europa-List: europa club subscriptions running out --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson A good number of people have already renewed their Europa Club subscriptions, but some have not yet (see list below). Remember that if subs are not paid by 1st June, membership will lapse. For members in UK, or with sterling bank accounts, it reduces the Membership Secretary's workload (and your own) significantly if you set up a Standing Order. (Some of the poeple listed below said they were doing that, but no payment has yet been received.) Please contact me via if you'd like to help me by setting up a SO. If your name appears in the following alphabetical list, please take action soon or your membership will lapse! Karim Bachu David Bligh Paul Boulet Joseph Brannen Tony Burbidge Carl Busuttil-Reynaud Tim Butterworth Jag Chaggar Terry Clark Mike Costin Roger Cullum Alan Day Dave DeFord Klaus Dietrich Scott Dingman Mike Dolphin Patrick Farrell Chris Garner Dennis Gerow Dave Glowa Nigel Graham Phil Hall John Hanna Keith Hartley Eddie Hatcher Paul Hawkins Robert Henderson Malcolm Hendra Nigel Henry Malcolm Hexley Norbert Hoffmann Rupert Holdsworth Gerry Holland Steven Janicki Andrew Jarvis Paul Johnson Paul Kuntz Ferg Kyle John Lambert Richard Lamprey Doug Lawton John Lindsay Roger Lloyd Stef Loup Bruce Ludeman Robert Marston Miles McCallum Mike Midderigh Dave Moore John Moore Rick Morris Tony Moth Franz Muggli Chris Napier Simon Nash Colin Noakes Padhraic O'Conghaile Sean O'Reilly John Phillingham Tam Pho Ben Price Jim Punter Robert Reese James Riley Roly Robinson Brian Robshaw Peter Robson Gert Rohrer Michael Scherf Ursula Schliessler Rick Sementilli Tom Sinclair Bill Sisley Henry Smolarek Doug Steven Martin Stevens John Tattersdill Barry Tennant Mike Toft Tony Wakefield Thomas Walt Francis Warlomont Chris Washington Rob Waters Peter Waugh Richard Winkler Martyn Wiseman Mike Wiseman Peter Wood Brian Wratten Craig Wright Rob Zeelenberg regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary - email for info! | Europa 435 G-ROWI (750 hours building) PFA #16532 | e-mail website ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:31:35 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Europa-List: PFA feedback --> Europa-List message posted by: Mr Newby seens to be telling everyone that the list is only two names long! (and as I thought, just sending a stock reply - the words are almost exactly the same as I received). One way to prove to him (and maybe used as a fact at the AGM) would be to generate an 'E-petition' on the club site We each log in, and simply leave our name, PFA membership number and a few words simply stating that we don't wish a magazine that is supposed to be published for the enjoyment of its members to use KWs pictures in the future. I've no idea how to set this E-petition up but I'm sure that one or some of the computer whizzos who operate the club site could do so quite quickly Peter > > From: "paul atkinson" > Date: 2005/05/26 Thu AM 08:40:08 GMT > To: "europa-list@matronics.com" > Subject: Europa-List: PFA feedback > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "paul atkinson" > > > Peter > > Here is my effort. > > Regards > > Paul > > > Dear Graham, > > I would like to increase your list by one. > I find that your response below is unsatifactory, if not insulting. The > PFA is about its members, and their opinions matter. The magazine is > incidental to the argument. There are no doubt many good photographers out > there who could, and do, contribute to it. I do not believe anyone would > miss Wilson's contribution (if that's what it is)nor do I believe the > magazine would suffer without it. > This industry is populated almost entirely by honest and trustworthy > people, and I for one would like to keep it that way. The PFA as our > representative body should be taking a lead in this and doing everything > in its power to exclude the likes of Wilson from it. > Please take note. > > Regards > > Paul Atkinson > > > Roger > Firstly may I say that the " list " is 2 people. > > I must commiserate with anybody who lost money or goods through the > collapse > of Europa, and may I say that apart from the not inconsiderable time we, > the > PFA, spent discussing the airworthiness issues with the CAA and the > processes we put in place before Europa was rejuvinated, we also lost some > $B!r(B1000 in advertising revenue that was unpaid. > > Having said all this, the collapse of Europa was a commercial business > issue. Keith Wilson has for many years supplied excellent photographs for > the magazine, and all at no cost to the Association. In fact Popular Flying > would have been a much worse publication over the years without Keiths > input. > > I hope this satisfies your request. > > Best regards > > Graham Newby > Chief Executive > Popular Flying Association > > 01280 846786 > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------- Email sent from www.ntlworld.com virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:13:49 AM PST US From: "Alan Burrows" Subject: FW: Europa-List: PFA Feedback --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows" Dear Mr Newby I have just received this copy of your response to Roger Sheridan, which I must say surprises me greatly. I am amazed at your complete lack of understanding of the strength of feeling amongst the Europa family! May I firstly correct some of the points you made in your letter. Those "free" photo's you have been receiving over the years were in fact paid for by Europa, even the camera he used was purchased by Europa! At the time of a lot of the photo shoots he was being paid a substantial salary by Europa, even the developing of the photo's was paid for by Europa! This man ran the company into the ground, despite offers of help and warnings from many well qualified people, including myself, but he knew better and ignored all. The free work you speak of has been paid for by us the Europa owners and now you feel it acceptable to rub salt in our wounds by continuing to use his work for our association. I wonder who is paying for the present photo's..! Would you please inform me of the PFA's attitude to aerial photography Work taking place in permit aircraft, as this was how most of his photographs were produced. I heard at the last PFA rally from members, that he was still taking deposits from people right up to the end, knowing he could not possibly deliver the goods. I'm sure others will come forward with more proof of this if it is needed. How clever would the PFA feel if Europa owners decided to make a real issue of this at the next agm which I am sure they will if this continues. It is not simply a "commercial matter" as you so naively put it, but a matter of integrity. surely you have a duty to act in the best interests of your members? It also has to be in the associations best interests to use people with high moral standards and not simply "good photographers". This is our association and we expect it to be run for our benefit in a proper manner and that does not include winding up the largest single group of owners within the PFA. I would respectfully suggest you take a look at the whole picture and not simply adopt an "its free so I'll take it" stance. Overall the PFA produces an excellent publication, please don't spoil it by alienating your largest group of readers. As for the list containing only two names please add me to it making three! Alan Burrows ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:05:55 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: FW: Europa-List: PFA Feedback --> Europa-List message posted by: Mr Newby Following your reply to me yesterday on the matter, please put me as Number 4 on your list of people objecting to the use of Mr Wilsons photographs - as Alan says, just becasue they are free, you shouldn't insult your largest group of members by using them. Peter Rees > > From: "Alan Burrows" > Date: 2005/05/26 Thu AM 11:23:55 GMT > To: > Subject: FW: Europa-List: PFA Feedback > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows" > > > Dear Mr Newby > > I have just received this copy of your response to Roger Sheridan, which > I must say surprises me greatly. I am amazed at your complete lack of > understanding of the strength of feeling amongst the Europa family! May > I firstly correct some of the points you made in your letter. Those > "free" photo's you have been receiving over the years were in fact paid > for by Europa, even the camera he used was purchased by Europa! At the > time of a lot of the photo shoots he was being paid a substantial salary > by Europa, even the developing of the photo's was paid for by Europa! > This man ran the company into the ground, despite offers of help and > warnings from many well qualified people, including myself, but he knew > better and ignored all. The free work you speak of has been paid for by > us the Europa owners and now you feel it acceptable to rub salt in our > wounds by continuing to use his work for our association. I wonder who > is paying for the present photo's..! Would you please inform me of the > PFA's attitude to aerial photography Work taking place in permit > aircraft, as this was how most of his photographs were produced. I heard > at the last PFA rally from members, that he was still taking deposits > from people right up to the end, knowing he could not possibly deliver > the goods. I'm sure others will come forward with more proof of this if > it is needed. How clever would the PFA feel if Europa owners decided to > make a real issue of this at the next agm which I am sure they will if > this continues. It is not simply a "commercial matter" as you so naively > put it, but a matter of integrity. surely you have a duty to act in the > best interests of your members? It also has to be in the associations > best interests to use people with high moral standards and not simply > "good photographers". This is our association and we expect it to be run > for our benefit in a proper manner and that does not include winding up > the largest single group of owners within the PFA. I would respectfully > suggest you take a look at the whole picture and not simply adopt an > "its free so I'll take it" stance. Overall the PFA produces an excellent > publication, please don't spoil it by alienating your largest group of > readers. As for the list containing only two names please add me to it > making three! > > Alan Burrows > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------- Email sent from www.ntlworld.com virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:25:38 AM PST US From: "Tim Weert" Subject: Europa-List: Increasing Max T/O weight in Holland to 1450 lbs/ 657 kgs --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tim Weert" I spoke Andy Draper about weight and balance calculations. He told me that the 1370 lbs max T/O weight of the Europa is based on structural tests to 8,55 G loading with 1370 lbs of weight. This figure is decreased by a normal safety factor of 1,5 for composite structures (which gives a G limit of 5,7 G ) and an other 1,5 "PFA superfactor" which is not a CAA requirement but a PFA requirement. That PFA based extra "Superfactor" gives the limit of 3,8 G in our books. The "Super factor" is not used for normal certified VLA aircraft, only for Experimentals in the UK because of this PFA rule. In the USA and Canada there is no Superfactor of 1,5 times required for experimentals. Andy told me that due to this there are Europa's flying in the USA and Canada with a max T/O Weight of 1450 lbs (or 657 kgs). I would like to try to increase the Max. T/O weight of my Dutch registrated Europa also to 1450 lbs in my Permit to Fly, but to get it in my Permit to Fly the Dutch CAA is requiring a copy of a Permit to Fly from an Europa in the USA and/or Canada with the 1450 lbs figure on it. Is there someone with this type of Permit to Fly who can sent me a copy (scan via email) to be able to increase the Max T/O Weight for Europa's in The Netherlands to 1450 lbs as well? Thanks! Regards, Tim Weert Heerhugowaard, The Netherlands, #460 PH-JAI TG 914 AP332 Email: tim.weert@hccnet.nl ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:23:15 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Re: FW: Europa-List: PFA Feedback --> Europa-List message posted by: One of the co-owners of Hotel india has just sent the following to Graham Newby so, he is number 5 on the list of 2 - any more for any more? Dear Mr Newby, I would like to add my name to the list of people showing concern at the complete lack of respect for the Europa community. The argument that Mr Wilson is not paid for the pictures does not hold any water. Are you saying you don't care of the origin of any pictures you use, as long as they are free ? Are you saying you are happy to rub salt into the wounds of the Europa community, because you've acquired some decent photos without cost ? The PFA is there for it's members, and should be supporting it members, not deploying this 'tough luck, they're free so we're going to use them' attitude, which quite frankly, stinks. Regards, Michael Bullen M > From: > Date: 2005/05/26 Thu PM 12:04:02 GMT > To: europa-list@matronics.com, graham.newby@pfa.org.uk > Subject: Re: FW: Europa-List: PFA Feedback > > --> Europa-List message posted by: > > Mr Newby > > Following your reply to me yesterday on the matter, please put me as Number 4 on your list of people objecting to the use of Mr Wilsons photographs - as Alan says, just becasue they are free, you shouldn't insult your largest group of members by using them. > > Peter Rees > > > > > > From: "Alan Burrows" > > Date: 2005/05/26 Thu AM 11:23:55 GMT > > To: > > Subject: FW: Europa-List: PFA Feedback > > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows" > > > > > > Dear Mr Newby > > > > I have just received this copy of your response to Roger Sheridan, which > > I must say surprises me greatly. I am amazed at your complete lack of > > understanding of the strength of feeling amongst the Europa family! May > > I firstly correct some of the points you made in your letter. Those > > "free" photo's you have been receiving over the years were in fact paid > > for by Europa, even the camera he used was purchased by Europa! At the > > time of a lot of the photo shoots he was being paid a substantial salary > > by Europa, even the developing of the photo's was paid for by Europa! > > This man ran the company into the ground, despite offers of help and > > warnings from many well qualified people, including myself, but he knew > > better and ignored all. The free work you speak of has been paid for by > > us the Europa owners and now you feel it acceptable to rub salt in our > > wounds by continuing to use his work for our association. I wonder who > > is paying for the present photo's..! Would you please inform me of the > > PFA's attitude to aerial photography Work taking place in permit > > aircraft, as this was how most of his photographs were produced. I heard > > at the last PFA rally from members, that he was still taking deposits > > from people right up to the end, knowing he could not possibly deliver > > the goods. I'm sure others will come forward with more proof of this if > > it is needed. How clever would the PFA feel if Europa owners decided to > > make a real issue of this at the next agm which I am sure they will if > > this continues. It is not simply a "commercial matter" as you so naively > > put it, but a matter of integrity. surely you have a duty to act in the > > best interests of your members? It also has to be in the associations > > best interests to use people with high moral standards and not simply > > "good photographers". This is our association and we expect it to be run > > for our benefit in a proper manner and that does not include winding up > > the largest single group of owners within the PFA. I would respectfully > > suggest you take a look at the whole picture and not simply adopt an > > "its free so I'll take it" stance. Overall the PFA produces an excellent > > publication, please don't spoil it by alienating your largest group of > > readers. As for the list containing only two names please add me to it > > making three! > > > > Alan Burrows > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------- > Email sent from www.ntlworld.com > virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software > visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------- Email sent from www.ntlworld.com virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:41:32 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Increasing Max T/O weight in Holland to 1450 lbs/ 657 kgs --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" Tim, I may be well off-base for this but, there was a Canadian-built Europa which was created in Calgary, Alberta and registered with a Max T/O weight of 1500lb. This I'm told is the result of the rule which bases the MTO on the wing area, thus permitting a higher weight than PFA-regulated machines. Consider this move at an airfield 3500 ft ABL and reaching summertime temps of over 35deg C. The builder gave me this info at OSH when we met at the Eur tent. He said they took off at max weight at 35deg many times and had no trouble with that (he was not a tyro) so it appears that greater latitude prevails here. Naturalluy one can register at a greater weight, but use it only for planning for a smooth-air trip for endurance/range, and still qualify for aeros at a lesser weight. What overshadows things here is that the ever-voracious givvermint taxes aircraft annually on its weight. Thus lesser registered weight results in a lesser financial burden (for the life of the 'plane). Just as a pound weight saved lasts for the life of the machine, a dollar saved does also. We now pay taxes on taxes on taxes, so you can imagine the calcs. Good luck, Ferg flamers accepted ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Weert" Subject: Europa-List: Increasing Max T/O weight in Holland to 1450 lbs/ 657 kgs | --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tim Weert" | | I spoke Andy Draper about weight and balance calculations. He told me that | the 1370 lbs max T/O weight of the Europa is based on structural tests to | 8,55 G loading with 1370 lbs of weight. This figure is decreased by a normal | safety factor of 1,5 for composite structures (which gives a G limit of 5,7 | G ) and an other 1,5 "PFA superfactor" which is not a CAA requirement but a | PFA requirement. That PFA based extra "Superfactor" gives the limit of 3,8 G | in our books. The "Super factor" is not used for normal certified VLA | aircraft, only for Experimentals in the UK because of this PFA rule. | | In the USA and Canada there is no Superfactor of 1,5 times required for | experimentals. Andy told me that due to this there are Europa's flying in | the USA and Canada with a max T/O Weight of 1450 lbs (or 657 kgs). I would | like to try to increase the Max. T/O weight of my Dutch registrated Europa | also to 1450 lbs in my Permit to Fly, but to get it in my Permit to Fly the | Dutch CAA is requiring a copy of a Permit to Fly from an Europa in the USA | and/or Canada with the 1450 lbs figure on it. | | Is there someone with this type of Permit to Fly who can sent me a copy | (scan via email) to be able to increase the Max T/O Weight for Europa's in | The Netherlands to 1450 lbs as well? | Thanks! | | Regards, | | Tim Weert | Heerhugowaard, | The Netherlands, | #460 PH-JAI TG 914 AP332 | Email: tim.weert@hccnet.nl | | | | | | ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:58:55 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Europa-List: off topic - PFA --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" Folks - Those of you involved in the UK in the firm's writhings are undoubtedly sincere in the intensity of your attitudes. One can sense that readily. However for those of us (touched or not by Nameless' indiscretions) who abide on the outer fringes - NA, SA, AFR, ASIA and AUS - the results are variously distant, comic, distressing or in one or two cases, infuriating. Perhaps you can see the attitudes of several hundred fellow builders being affected by an essentially local event - as is photgraphy for a national publication. This is countered here by following the DOTH series for the pleasure of seeing good friends enjoying their hundred-pound butties........ which distance may stifle here. Nevertheless, please consider making your campaign on another URL, or at least on a lesser address list. This will serve to prevent polarising a fairly cohesive group - to the detriment of us all. E&OE Cheers, Ferg PS: It appears that PFA is an association which has legal and procedural powers which transcend the term. It is interesting to see the different impressions various members reveal of the establishment. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:54 AM PST US From: EuropaXSA276@aol.com Subject: Europa-List: Mod 70 Weights touching the guide strips --> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com Friends: Question. How much luck have you all had about centering the balance weight between the 2 guide strips so they will not touch per the instructions? I worked on the positioning of the containment bracket < thankfully my top is not on> for a few hours last night. I could not get bracket positioned to the point the weight would not at very least brush oh so lightly against the guides with full range of movement. There is only about a 2 mm clearance on each side. The weight will certainly ride against the guides most of the time unless the aircraft be parked and securely tied down! In addition it appears that the guide strip could be a bit long than what was supplied. I will probably have to round off the top of the guide to prevent any hang ups. I'm thinking of rounding the aft edge as well to prevent a hang up if the two weight were ever to separate and cause a gap. < I'm thinking this is why there is a spacer now provided over the old 00M hose clamp> Anyone else with this problem with guide spacing? Brian Skelly Texas Europa # A276 TriGear See My build photos at: http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:20 AM PST US From: Paul Boulet Subject: Re: Europa-List: europa club subscriptions running out --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Boulet Hi Rowland; Please renew my membership. I'll send you my Mastercard in two separate emails. The first numbers are 54994409017 and the card expires 9/05. Also, can you put my Europa up for sale in the magazine? It is at www.barnstormers.com and I've also attached a copy of the text to this email. Thanks Paul Boulet --- Rowland Carson wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson > > > A good number of people have already renewed their > Europa Club > subscriptions, but some have not yet (see list > below). Remember that > if subs are not paid by 1st June, membership will > lapse. For members > in UK, or with sterling bank accounts, it reduces > the Membership > Secretary's workload (and your own) significantly if > you set up a > Standing Order. (Some of the poeple listed below > said they were doing > that, but no payment has yet been received.) Please > contact me via > if you'd like to help me > by setting up a > SO. If your name appears in the following > alphabetical list, please > take action soon or your membership will lapse! > > Karim Bachu > David Bligh > Paul Boulet > Joseph Brannen > Tony Burbidge > Carl Busuttil-Reynaud > Tim Butterworth > Jag Chaggar > Terry Clark > Mike Costin > Roger Cullum > Alan Day > Dave DeFord > Klaus Dietrich > Scott Dingman > Mike Dolphin > Patrick Farrell > Chris Garner > Dennis Gerow > Dave Glowa > Nigel Graham > Phil Hall > John Hanna > Keith Hartley > Eddie Hatcher > Paul Hawkins > Robert Henderson > Malcolm Hendra > Nigel Henry > Malcolm Hexley > Norbert Hoffmann > Rupert Holdsworth > Gerry Holland > Steven Janicki > Andrew Jarvis > Paul Johnson > Paul Kuntz > Ferg Kyle > John Lambert > Richard Lamprey > Doug Lawton > John Lindsay > Roger Lloyd > Stef Loup > Bruce Ludeman > Robert Marston > Miles McCallum > Mike Midderigh > Dave Moore > John Moore > Rick Morris > Tony Moth > Franz Muggli > Chris Napier > Simon Nash > Colin Noakes > Padhraic O'Conghaile > Sean O'Reilly > John Phillingham > Tam Pho > Ben Price > Jim Punter > Robert Reese > James Riley > Roly Robinson > Brian Robshaw > Peter Robson > Gert Rohrer > Michael Scherf > Ursula Schliessler > Rick Sementilli > Tom Sinclair > Bill Sisley > Henry Smolarek > Doug Steven > Martin Stevens > John Tattersdill > Barry Tennant > Mike Toft > Tony Wakefield > Thomas Walt > Francis Warlomont > Chris Washington > Rob Waters > Peter Waugh > Richard Winkler > Martyn Wiseman > Mike Wiseman > Peter Wood > Brian Wratten > Craig Wright > Rob Zeelenberg > > regards > > Rowland > -- > - email for info! > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:06 AM PST US From: Paul Boulet Subject: Re: Europa-List: europa club subscriptions running out --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Boulet oops...forgot to attach the text doc to sell my plane... it's included on this one. Also the remaining numbers on my cc are 38919. Let me know if questions. Thanks Paul Boulet --- Rowland Carson wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson > > > A good number of people have already renewed their > Europa Club > subscriptions, but some have not yet (see list > below). Remember that > if subs are not paid by 1st June, membership will > lapse. For members > in UK, or with sterling bank accounts, it reduces > the Membership > Secretary's workload (and your own) significantly if > you set up a > Standing Order. (Some of the poeple listed below > said they were doing > that, but no payment has yet been received.) Please > contact me via > if you'd like to help me > by setting up a > SO. If your name appears in the following > alphabetical list, please > take action soon or your membership will lapse! > > Karim Bachu > David Bligh > Paul Boulet > Joseph Brannen > Tony Burbidge > Carl Busuttil-Reynaud > Tim Butterworth > Jag Chaggar > Terry Clark > Mike Costin > Roger Cullum > Alan Day > Dave DeFord > Klaus Dietrich > Scott Dingman > Mike Dolphin > Patrick Farrell > Chris Garner > Dennis Gerow > Dave Glowa > Nigel Graham > Phil Hall > John Hanna > Keith Hartley > Eddie Hatcher > Paul Hawkins > Robert Henderson > Malcolm Hendra > Nigel Henry > Malcolm Hexley > Norbert Hoffmann > Rupert Holdsworth > Gerry Holland > Steven Janicki > Andrew Jarvis > Paul Johnson > Paul Kuntz > Ferg Kyle > John Lambert > Richard Lamprey > Doug Lawton > John Lindsay > Roger Lloyd > Stef Loup > Bruce Ludeman > Robert Marston > Miles McCallum > Mike Midderigh > Dave Moore > John Moore > Rick Morris > Tony Moth > Franz Muggli > Chris Napier > Simon Nash > Colin Noakes > Padhraic O'Conghaile > Sean O'Reilly > John Phillingham > Tam Pho > Ben Price > Jim Punter > Robert Reese > James Riley > Roly Robinson > Brian Robshaw > Peter Robson > Gert Rohrer > Michael Scherf > Ursula Schliessler > Rick Sementilli > Tom Sinclair > Bill Sisley > Henry Smolarek > Doug Steven > Martin Stevens > John Tattersdill > Barry Tennant > Mike Toft > Tony Wakefield > Thomas Walt > Francis Warlomont > Chris Washington > Rob Waters > Peter Waugh > Richard Winkler > Martyn Wiseman > Mike Wiseman > Peter Wood > Brian Wratten > Craig Wright > Rob Zeelenberg > > regards > > Rowland > -- > - email for info! > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:58 AM PST US From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: europa club subscriptions running out --> Europa-List message posted by: You just let that mail go to all on the list, Poul.......... uuuuuuups.... Happy landings Regards Gert Gert Dalgaard Soerensen Stabelvej 9, Haarby DK 8660 Skanderborg Denmark Europa builder No. 151 Europa Classic / Rotax 914 AC reg.: OY-GDS Phone.: +45 8695 0595 E mail: lgds@post6.tele.dk http://home19.inet.tele.dk/dalgaard/oygds.jpeg http://www.oy-reg.dk/billeder/l613.jpg Den 26/05/2005 kl. 16.40 skrev Paul Boulet: > --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Boulet > > > oops...forgot to attach the text doc to sell my > plane... it's included on this one. Also the > remaining numbers on my cc are 38919. > > Let me know if questions. Thanks > Paul Boulet > --- Rowland Carson wrote: > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson >> >> >> A good number of people have already renewed their >> Europa Club >> subscriptions, but some have not yet (see list >> below). Remember that >> if subs are not paid by 1st June, membership will >> lapse. For members >> in UK, or with sterling bank accounts, it reduces >> the Membership >> Secretary's workload (and your own) significantly if >> you set up a >> Standing Order. (Some of the poeple listed below >> said they were doing >> that, but no payment has yet been received.) Please >> contact me via >> if you'd like to help me >> by setting up a >> SO. If your name appears in the following >> alphabetical list, please >> take action soon or your membership will lapse! >> >> Karim Bachu >> David Bligh >> Paul Boulet >> Joseph Brannen >> Tony Burbidge >> Carl Busuttil-Reynaud >> Tim Butterworth >> Jag Chaggar >> Terry Clark >> Mike Costin >> Roger Cullum >> Alan Day >> Dave DeFord >> Klaus Dietrich >> Scott Dingman >> Mike Dolphin >> Patrick Farrell >> Chris Garner >> Dennis Gerow >> Dave Glowa >> Nigel Graham >> Phil Hall >> John Hanna >> Keith Hartley >> Eddie Hatcher >> Paul Hawkins >> Robert Henderson >> Malcolm Hendra >> Nigel Henry >> Malcolm Hexley >> Norbert Hoffmann >> Rupert Holdsworth >> Gerry Holland >> Steven Janicki >> Andrew Jarvis >> Paul Johnson >> Paul Kuntz >> Ferg Kyle >> John Lambert >> Richard Lamprey >> Doug Lawton >> John Lindsay >> Roger Lloyd >> Stef Loup >> Bruce Ludeman >> Robert Marston >> Miles McCallum >> Mike Midderigh >> Dave Moore >> John Moore >> Rick Morris >> Tony Moth >> Franz Muggli >> Chris Napier >> Simon Nash >> Colin Noakes >> Padhraic O'Conghaile >> Sean O'Reilly >> John Phillingham >> Tam Pho >> Ben Price >> Jim Punter >> Robert Reese >> James Riley >> Roly Robinson >> Brian Robshaw >> Peter Robson >> Gert Rohrer >> Michael Scherf >> Ursula Schliessler >> Rick Sementilli >> Tom Sinclair >> Bill Sisley >> Henry Smolarek >> Doug Steven >> Martin Stevens >> John Tattersdill >> Barry Tennant >> Mike Toft >> Tony Wakefield >> Thomas Walt >> Francis Warlomont >> Chris Washington >> Rob Waters >> Peter Waugh >> Richard Winkler >> Martyn Wiseman >> Mike Wiseman >> Peter Wood >> Brian Wratten >> Craig Wright >> Rob Zeelenberg >> >> regards >> >> Rowland >> -- >> | Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary >> - email for info! >> | Europa 435 G-ROWI (750 hours building) PFA #16532 >> | e-mail website >> >> >> >> >> browse >> Subscriptions page, >> FAQ, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:41:21 AM PST US From: David Glauser Subject: Re: Europa-List: europa club subscriptions running out --> Europa-List message posted by: David Glauser Everyone, quick - go grab your Aircraft Spruce catalogs! Its order time ! David On 5/26/05, owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: > > You just let that mail go to all on the list, Poul.......... > uuuuuuups.... > Happy landings > Regards Gert > > Gert Dalgaard Soerensen > Stabelvej 9, Haarby > DK 8660 Skanderborg > Denmark > > Europa builder No. 151 > Europa Classic / Rotax 914 > AC reg.: OY-GDS > > Phone.: +45 8695 0595 > E mail: lgds@post6.tele.dk > http://home19.inet.tele.dk/dalgaard/oygds.jpeg > http://www.oy-reg.dk/billeder/l613.jpg > > > Den 26/05/2005 kl. 16.40 skrev Paul Boulet: > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Boulet > > > > > > oops...forgot to attach the text doc to sell my > > plane... it's included on this one. Also the > > remaining numbers on my cc are 38919. > > > > Let me know if questions. Thanks > > Paul Boulet > > --- Rowland Carson wrote: > > > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson > >> > >> > >> A good number of people have already renewed their > >> Europa Club > >> subscriptions, but some have not yet (see list > >> below). Remember that > >> if subs are not paid by 1st June, membership will > >> lapse. For members > >> in UK, or with sterling bank accounts, it reduces > >> the Membership > >> Secretary's workload (and your own) significantly if > >> you set up a > >> Standing Order. (Some of the poeple listed below > >> said they were doing > >> that, but no payment has yet been received.) Please > >> contact me via > >> if you'd like to help me > >> by setting up a > >> SO. If your name appears in the following > >> alphabetical list, please > >> take action soon or your membership will lapse! > >> > >> Karim Bachu > >> David Bligh > >> Paul Boulet > >> Joseph Brannen > >> Tony Burbidge > >> Carl Busuttil-Reynaud > >> Tim Butterworth > >> Jag Chaggar > >> Terry Clark > >> Mike Costin > >> Roger Cullum > >> Alan Day > >> Dave DeFord > >> Klaus Dietrich > >> Scott Dingman > >> Mike Dolphin > >> Patrick Farrell > >> Chris Garner > >> Dennis Gerow > >> Dave Glowa > >> Nigel Graham > >> Phil Hall > >> John Hanna > >> Keith Hartley > >> Eddie Hatcher > >> Paul Hawkins > >> Robert Henderson > >> Malcolm Hendra > >> Nigel Henry > >> Malcolm Hexley > >> Norbert Hoffmann > >> Rupert Holdsworth > >> Gerry Holland > >> Steven Janicki > >> Andrew Jarvis > >> Paul Johnson > >> Paul Kuntz > >> Ferg Kyle > >> John Lambert > >> Richard Lamprey > >> Doug Lawton > >> John Lindsay > >> Roger Lloyd > >> Stef Loup > >> Bruce Ludeman > >> Robert Marston > >> Miles McCallum > >> Mike Midderigh > >> Dave Moore > >> John Moore > >> Rick Morris > >> Tony Moth > >> Franz Muggli > >> Chris Napier > >> Simon Nash > >> Colin Noakes > >> Padhraic O'Conghaile > >> Sean O'Reilly > >> John Phillingham > >> Tam Pho > >> Ben Price > >> Jim Punter > >> Robert Reese > >> James Riley > >> Roly Robinson > >> Brian Robshaw > >> Peter Robson > >> Gert Rohrer > >> Michael Scherf > >> Ursula Schliessler > >> Rick Sementilli > >> Tom Sinclair > >> Bill Sisley > >> Henry Smolarek > >> Doug Steven > >> Martin Stevens > >> John Tattersdill > >> Barry Tennant > >> Mike Toft > >> Tony Wakefield > >> Thomas Walt > >> Francis Warlomont > >> Chris Washington > >> Rob Waters > >> Peter Waugh > >> Richard Winkler > >> Martyn Wiseman > >> Mike Wiseman > >> Peter Wood > >> Brian Wratten > >> Craig Wright > >> Rob Zeelenberg > >> > >> regards > >> > >> Rowland > >> -- > >> | Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary > >> - email for info! > >> | Europa 435 G-ROWI (750 hours building) PFA #16532 > >> | e-mail website > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> browse > >> Subscriptions page, > >> FAQ, > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:10 AM PST US From: "Cory Emberson" Subject: RE: Europa-List: europa club subscriptions running out --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cory Emberson" ROFL! (Oregon Aero for me - I've always wanted an ejection seat!) :-) Do Not Archive --> Europa-List message posted by: David Glauser Everyone, quick - go grab your Aircraft Spruce catalogs! Its order time ! David On 5/26/05, owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: > > You just let that mail go to all on the list, Poul.......... > uuuuuuups.... > Happy landings > Regards Gert > > Gert Dalgaard Soerensen > Stabelvej 9, Haarby > DK 8660 Skanderborg > Denmark > > Europa builder No. 151 > Europa Classic / Rotax 914 > AC reg.: OY-GDS > > Phone.: +45 8695 0595 > E mail: lgds@post6.tele.dk > http://home19.inet.tele.dk/dalgaard/oygds.jpeg > http://www.oy-reg.dk/billeder/l613.jpg > > > Den 26/05/2005 kl. 16.40 skrev Paul Boulet: > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Boulet > > > > > > oops...forgot to attach the text doc to sell my > > plane... it's included on this one. Also the > > remaining numbers on my cc are 38919. > > > > Let me know if questions. Thanks > > Paul Boulet > > --- Rowland Carson wrote: > > > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson > >> > >> > >> A good number of people have already renewed their > >> Europa Club > >> subscriptions, but some have not yet (see list > >> below). Remember that > >> if subs are not paid by 1st June, membership will > >> lapse. For members > >> in UK, or with sterling bank accounts, it reduces > >> the Membership > >> Secretary's workload (and your own) significantly if > >> you set up a > >> Standing Order. (Some of the poeple listed below > >> said they were doing > >> that, but no payment has yet been received.) Please > >> contact me via > >> if you'd like to help me > >> by setting up a > >> SO. If your name appears in the following > >> alphabetical list, please > >> take action soon or your membership will lapse! > >> > >> Karim Bachu > >> David Bligh > >> Paul Boulet > >> Joseph Brannen > >> Tony Burbidge > >> Carl Busuttil-Reynaud > >> Tim Butterworth > >> Jag Chaggar > >> Terry Clark > >> Mike Costin > >> Roger Cullum > >> Alan Day > >> Dave DeFord > >> Klaus Dietrich > >> Scott Dingman > >> Mike Dolphin > >> Patrick Farrell > >> Chris Garner > >> Dennis Gerow > >> Dave Glowa > >> Nigel Graham > >> Phil Hall > >> John Hanna > >> Keith Hartley > >> Eddie Hatcher > >> Paul Hawkins > >> Robert Henderson > >> Malcolm Hendra > >> Nigel Henry > >> Malcolm Hexley > >> Norbert Hoffmann > >> Rupert Holdsworth > >> Gerry Holland > >> Steven Janicki > >> Andrew Jarvis > >> Paul Johnson > >> Paul Kuntz > >> Ferg Kyle > >> John Lambert > >> Richard Lamprey > >> Doug Lawton > >> John Lindsay > >> Roger Lloyd > >> Stef Loup > >> Bruce Ludeman > >> Robert Marston > >> Miles McCallum > >> Mike Midderigh > >> Dave Moore > >> John Moore > >> Rick Morris > >> Tony Moth > >> Franz Muggli > >> Chris Napier > >> Simon Nash > >> Colin Noakes > >> Padhraic O'Conghaile > >> Sean O'Reilly > >> John Phillingham > >> Tam Pho > >> Ben Price > >> Jim Punter > >> Robert Reese > >> James Riley > >> Roly Robinson > >> Brian Robshaw > >> Peter Robson > >> Gert Rohrer > >> Michael Scherf > >> Ursula Schliessler > >> Rick Sementilli > >> Tom Sinclair > >> Bill Sisley > >> Henry Smolarek > >> Doug Steven > >> Martin Stevens > >> John Tattersdill > >> Barry Tennant > >> Mike Toft > >> Tony Wakefield > >> Thomas Walt > >> Francis Warlomont > >> Chris Washington > >> Rob Waters > >> Peter Waugh > >> Richard Winkler > >> Martyn Wiseman > >> Mike Wiseman > >> Peter Wood > >> Brian Wratten > >> Craig Wright > >> Rob Zeelenberg > >> > >> regards > >> > >> Rowland > >> -- > >> | Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary > >> - email for info! > >> | Europa 435 G-ROWI (750 hours building) PFA #16532 > >> | e-mail website > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> browse > >> Subscriptions page, > >> FAQ, > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:20:19 AM PST US From: "Bryan Allsop" Subject: Europa-List: The price of Bacon Butties --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bryan Allsop" Sorry Fergus! The exchange rate may not be good, but my bacon butty and coffee cost less than two pounds on Wednesday. Cheers, Dother Bryan. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Europa-List: off topic - PFA > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" > > Folks - > Those of you involved in the UK in the firm's writhings are > undoubtedly sincere in the intensity of your attitudes. One can sense that > readily. > However for those of us (touched or not by Nameless' > indiscretions) who abide on the outer fringes - NA, SA, AFR, ASIA and > AUS - > the results are variously distant, comic, distressing or in one or two > cases, infuriating. Perhaps you can see the attitudes of several hundred > fellow builders being affected by an essentially local event - as is > photgraphy for a national publication. > This is countered here by following the DOTH series for the > pleasure of seeing good friends enjoying their hundred-pound > butties........ > which distance may stifle here. > Nevertheless, please consider making your campaign on another > URL, or at least on a lesser address list. This will serve to prevent > polarising a fairly cohesive group - to the detriment of us all. > E&OE > Cheers, Ferg > PS: It appears that PFA is an association which has legal and procedural > powers which transcend the term. It is interesting to see the different > impressions various members reveal of the establishment. > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:59:53 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: WAS RE: Europa-List: PFA Feedback NOW :- Voluntary Services. For British consumption only. --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" I registered my disappointment of the association of the PFA Mag with Wilson about two months ago it is still valid and will be for ever, Mr. Newby please listen up..... Sorry, you American guys but we are sympathising for a lot of your buddys, just turn it off if you don't like it. Now to Jeremy Davey.... "In short, are you volunteering?......." I just may have, up to about 3 weeks ago but I have no wish to be part of the management of any organisation that has dished up what has prevailed over me behind the scenes from this group in this period. If my perception or even suggestions are wrong or incorrect then why hasn't my communications from 23rd April, 28th April and accompanying letter which was sent with my application for a cable retention "variant option" to Mod. 70 dated 12th May received the courtesy of either a reply, acknowledgement or a 'phone call even now? Except when I called I was arrogantly told to "make a written application send 45 and get in the queue." As I see it you picked up the challenge of being on the EC and you'll be judged on whether the PFA are ultimately listening or not. From where I stand I can't see a flutter of a move towards inclusiveness, or signs of a user caring organisation other than an authoritarian regulator which you and Rickard have even tried to extend through the Europa Club. (Excepting the representation and lobbying on our behalf at the International Organisations who are frustrating our sport of which we get limited information) If the "membership base" is to flourish tinkering at the edges changing titles like "flying for fun" or inviting members to go the CAA way isn't going to improve it, just hard work to enable and encourage greater numbers of home builders to indulge is what's needed. This means less time taken to make simple engineering decisions and just a little bit of communication about the subject matter of a builders view point, problem or suggestion. We "the membership" have to be able to relate to newcomers truthfully as to how we see the PFA, in good light or bad and my experiences have only been good when I've managed to get one to one direct verbal communication with the Chief Engineer. IMHO the rest of the team need to take a leaf out of his book. Bob Harrison. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:55 AM PST US From: DuaneFamly@aol.com Subject: Re: WAS RE: Europa-List: PFA Feedback NOW :- Voluntary Services. For British ... --> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com Bob, et al, Since I am in the USA, I have no weight with the PFA. There are many people throughout the world that have been screwed by this man that are also not members. However, I do feel that, as a group, we should show solidarity when "morally reprehensible" acts are undertaken against citizen of our flying community. I don't see how the PFA, or any group, cannot see the disdain for this man held by our group due to his actions and feel that shunning him would help prevent his ability to re-enter any flying business again. While he did not get jail time because a legal law was not broken, he broke a moral law and his shunning would be a moral penalty that could serve a purpose. Mike Duane A207 Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Top On! Now going forward by working in the aft portion of the fuselage. I am so glad I built that shelf behind the BB bulkhead. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:49:23 PM PST US From: "Garry" Subject: Re: Re: FW: Europa-List: PFA Feedback --> Europa-List message posted by: "Garry" Dear Mr. Newby, Please add my name to the list of people (Europa Owners) who oppose any association of the PFA with Keith Wilson. There's an old saying, that "we are known by the company we keep". Mr. Wilson is a snake of the lowest order, and if the PFA associates with him, then.................... Garry Stout ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Re: FW: Europa-List: PFA Feedback > --> Europa-List message posted by: > > One of the co-owners of Hotel india has just sent the following to Graham > Newby so, he is number 5 on the list of 2 - any more for any more? > > > Dear Mr Newby, > > I would like to add my name to the list of people showing concern at the > complete lack of respect for the Europa community. > > The argument that Mr Wilson is not paid for the pictures does not hold any > water. Are you saying you don't care of the origin > of any pictures you use, as long as they are free ? Are you saying you > are > happy to rub salt into the wounds of the > Europa community, because you've acquired some decent photos without cost > ? > > The PFA is there for it's members, and should be supporting it members, > not > deploying this 'tough luck, they're free > so we're going to use them' attitude, which quite frankly, stinks. > > Regards, > > Michael Bullen > M > >> >> From: >> Date: 2005/05/26 Thu PM 12:04:02 GMT >> To: europa-list@matronics.com, graham.newby@pfa.org.uk >> Subject: Re: FW: Europa-List: PFA Feedback >> >> --> Europa-List message posted by: >> >> Mr Newby >> >> Following your reply to me yesterday on the matter, please put me as >> Number 4 on your list of people objecting to the use of Mr Wilsons >> photographs - as Alan says, just becasue they are free, you shouldn't >> insult your largest group of members by using them. >> >> Peter Rees >> >> >> > >> > From: "Alan Burrows" >> > Date: 2005/05/26 Thu AM 11:23:55 GMT >> > To: >> > Subject: FW: Europa-List: PFA Feedback >> > >> > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows" >> > >> > >> > >> > Dear Mr Newby >> > >> > I have just received this copy of your response to Roger Sheridan, >> > which >> > I must say surprises me greatly. I am amazed at your complete lack of >> > understanding of the strength of feeling amongst the Europa family! May >> > I firstly correct some of the points you made in your letter. Those >> > "free" photo's you have been receiving over the years were in fact paid >> > for by Europa, even the camera he used was purchased by Europa! At the >> > time of a lot of the photo shoots he was being paid a substantial >> > salary >> > by Europa, even the developing of the photo's was paid for by Europa! >> > This man ran the company into the ground, despite offers of help and >> > warnings from many well qualified people, including myself, but he knew >> > better and ignored all. The free work you speak of has been paid for by >> > us the Europa owners and now you feel it acceptable to rub salt in our >> > wounds by continuing to use his work for our association. I wonder who >> > is paying for the present photo's..! Would you please inform me of the >> > PFA's attitude to aerial photography Work taking place in permit >> > aircraft, as this was how most of his photographs were produced. I >> > heard >> > at the last PFA rally from members, that he was still taking deposits >> > from people right up to the end, knowing he could not possibly deliver >> > the goods. I'm sure others will come forward with more proof of this if >> > it is needed. How clever would the PFA feel if Europa owners decided to >> > make a real issue of this at the next agm which I am sure they will if >> > this continues. It is not simply a "commercial matter" as you so >> > naively >> > put it, but a matter of integrity. surely you have a duty to act in the >> > best interests of your members? It also has to be in the associations >> > best interests to use people with high moral standards and not simply >> > "good photographers". This is our association and we expect it to be >> > run >> > for our benefit in a proper manner and that does not include winding up >> > the largest single group of owners within the PFA. I would >> > respectfully >> > suggest you take a look at the whole picture and not simply adopt an >> > "its free so I'll take it" stance. Overall the PFA produces an >> > excellent >> > publication, please don't spoil it by alienating your largest group of >> > readers. As for the list containing only two names please add me to it >> > making three! >> > >> > Alan Burrows >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> ----------------------------------------- >> Email sent from www.ntlworld.com >> virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software >> visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ----------------------------------------- > Email sent from www.ntlworld.com > virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software > visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:29 PM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: Re: Europa-List: europa club subscriptions running out --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson At 2005-05-26 07:31 -0700 Paul Boulet wrote: >Please renew my membership. I'll send you my >Mastercard Paul - thanks for the renewal. Apologies to everyone on the Matronics list for replying here, but I think there are things that everyone needs to be aware of. First, I counsel against sending card numbers (or bank details) in e-mail messages unless you use PGP or encryption of equivalent strength. Yes, people have previously sent me their card numbers in plain-text e-mail, some using a similar splitting tactic, and (as far as I know) none have suffered ill as a result. However, there is a first time for everything! Second, this illustrates the care needed when replying to messages on e-mail lists. Please think before hitting that "reply" button. You may have to copy and paste the address you really need if the reply should go to an individaul instead of the whole list. (But we all know that - we read Matt Dralle's usage guidelines every month, don't we?) Third, your card number is now available on (I believe) 3 archives open to public access. I suggest that you ask Matt Dralle, Andrew Sarangan, and (possibly) Steve Dunsmuir to excise these 2 messages from their archives as soon as possible. I'd ask that everyone else who received them from the list please delete them from their own machines too, please, as a courtesy to Paul. regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary - email for info! | Europa 435 G-ROWI (750 hours building) PFA #16532 | e-mail website ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:29 PM PST US From: Rowland Carson out] Subject: Europa-List: europa club newsletter [was: europa club subscriptions running out] --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson out] At 2005-05-26 07:31 -0700 Paul Boulet wrote: >can you put my Europa up for sale in the >magazine? It is at www.barnstormers.com and I've also >attached a copy of the text to this email Paul - please contact the editor of The Europa Flyer direct at with all submissions, editorial or advertising. Your attachment was stripped off by the list server; you'll need to re-send it direct to the editor, please. regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary - email for info! | Europa 435 G-ROWI (750 hours building) PFA #16532 | e-mail website ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:29 PM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: Europa-List: europa club membership secretary retirement --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson Most Europa Club members should by now have received EF44 and seen my piece announcing my retirement as Membership Secretary. Unfortunately it got a bit truncated, so I am posting it here in its entirety, to help anyone who might be considering volunteering as my successor. MEMBERSHIP SECRETARY JOB With the intention of devoting my time more single-mindedly to getting my Europa finished and flying, I have decided that it is time for me to retire as Membership Secretary. I have been in the job since Autumn 1995, when I took over from founder members Ron & Kath Swinden. I was still in full-time work, although anticipating retirement the following year. The biggest and most tedious part of the job then was stuffing the newsletters into envelopes, addressing and posting them. Now, that is all delegated to a professional printing house. The job has become much more varied, with time spent on keeping track of Europa-related matters and people worldwide, as well as banking and posting stuff. My database for maintaining all the information has grown from the 3 tables that Ron sent to me (not as an e-mail attachment - direct modem-to-modem using XMODEM!) to a complex system of over 30 tables inter-related in many complex ways. I have set myself the task, by the 2005 AGM, of improving the human interface so that it can be run by anyone, without any special database programming knowledge. As an earnest of my faith in its robustness, I will undertake to carry out any future maintenance needed on the database. The Membership Secretary needs to be a signatory to the Club bank account, and so will need to be a UK resident. I believe that a minimal level of computer and internet competency is also a pre-requisite. From my own experience, it might be easier for a retired person who is already flying their Europa to do this work - but we won't turn away a young firebrand in full-time work looking for a challenge! As with most people in the Committee, the job has become what I have made of it, and I have taken on or created some aspects that may not need to be done, or at least may not need to be done by the same person. To help members consider whether they should think about volunteering for the job, here are the aspects I consider to be central to the Membership Secretary job: Maintain the register of paid-up members, ensuring that address and other details are kept up-to-date, and that memberships are lapsed when subscriptions are not paid on time. Maintain records of payments received by cheque, credit card or standing order, keeping them associated correctly with the paying member. Pay into the Club's bank account, or pass to the treasurer, all payments received. Send a welcome pack (including Hints & Tips, list of Members, newsletter index, latest newsletter(s), membership badge and form confirming all details) to each new member upon joining. Provide addressing information or labels as required to the printer of the newsletter, and to other Committee members wishing to communicate with the Club membership. Create membership renewal reminders to go out with the March newsletter each year. Maintain the Members-only access mechanism on the Club website. Keep the stock of newsletter back issues and sell to members as required. Respond to requests about joining the Club by sending an information pack (including a brief description of the Club and its Officers, a copy of the current Constitution, an application form and a Rescue Service form) by e-mail or on paper as appropriate. Distribute the list of Rescue Service volunteers to all Committee members at least 4 times a year. Report to, and attend, the 4 Committee meetings required to be held each year. Report to the Club AGM. Keep records of expenses incurred in connection with Committee duties and submit claims to the Treasurer. Many of the above tasks are handled completely, or at least supported, by automated aspects of the membership database system. I am hoping soon to incorporate online clearing of credit-card payments, thus reducing the need for physical visits to the bank. If you think that you could tackle the work listed above, then please get in touch with me (or any Committee member) to discuss it in more detail without obligation. I intend to prepare fuller descriptions of the tasks to help potential candidates assess the scope of their commitment. Prior to the AGM, the Committee will be discussing the list of other things that I presently do, to see which might be done by other people, or which might be discarded altogether without detriment to the operation of the Europa Club. I have enjoyed being your Membership Secretary. I volunteered for not entirely altruistic reasons, thinking that being in this position would ensure that I had good access to information that would help me avoid mistakes on my own project. That has certainly proved true, but I have tried to be unselfish, and to ensure that no member is at a disadvantage because of lack of information. There have been some "exciting" times, and I have had the chance to meet and talk with some very significant people in the worlds of aviation and engineering. The Committee has always supported me and kept me on the rails when I was in danger of going off at right-angles to everything. I hope the new incumbent will find that it's interesting, it's fun (well some of the time at least), and that they will make as many friends as I have in the doing of it. regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson Europa Club Membership Secretary - email for info! | Europa 435 G-ROWI (750 hours building) PFA #16532 | e-mail website ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:33:18 PM PST US From: Paul Boulet Subject: Re: Europa-List: europa club subscriptions running out --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Boulet my apologies to all...guess I got the dummie award today Paul Boulet do not archive ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:45:22 PM PST US From: "Cory Emberson" Subject: RE: Europa-List: europa club subscriptions running out --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cory Emberson" I just hope you don't have any fallout with your CC#! I promise I won't call the Psychic Hotline with it. :-) do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Paul Boulet Subject: Re: Europa-List: europa club subscriptions running out --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Boulet my apologies to all...guess I got the dummie award today Paul Boulet do not archive ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:48:54 PM PST US From: N55XS Subject: Re: WAS RE: Europa-List: PFA Feedback NOW :- Voluntary Services. For British consumption only. --> Europa-List message posted by: N55XS R.C.Harrison wrote: >--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" > > I registered my disappointment of the association of the PFA Mag with >Wilson about two months ago it is still valid and will be for ever, Mr. >Newby please listen up..... >Sorry, you American guys but we are sympathising for a lot of your >buddys, just turn it off if you don't like it. > >Now to Jeremy Davey.... > >"In short, are you volunteering?......." > >I just may have, up to about 3 weeks ago but I have no wish to be part >of the management of any organisation that has dished up what has >prevailed over me behind the scenes from this group in this period. >If my perception or even suggestions are wrong or incorrect then why >hasn't my communications from 23rd April, 28th April and accompanying >letter which was sent with my application for a cable retention "variant >option" to Mod. 70 dated 12th May received the courtesy of either a >reply, acknowledgement or a 'phone call even now? Except when I called I >was arrogantly told to "make a written application send 45 and get in >the queue." >As I see it you picked up the challenge of being on the EC and you'll be >judged on whether the PFA are ultimately listening or not. From where I >stand I can't see a flutter of a move towards inclusiveness, or signs of >a user caring organisation other than an authoritarian regulator which >you and Rickard have even tried to extend through the Europa Club. > (Excepting the representation and lobbying on our behalf at the >International Organisations who are frustrating our sport of which we >get limited information) >If the "membership base" is to flourish tinkering at the edges changing >titles like "flying for fun" or inviting members to go the CAA way isn't >going to improve it, just hard work to enable and encourage greater >numbers of home builders to indulge is what's needed. This means less >time taken to make simple engineering decisions and just a little bit of >communication about the subject matter of a builders view point, problem >or suggestion. We "the membership" have to be able to relate to >newcomers truthfully as to how we see the PFA, in good light or bad and >my experiences have only been good when I've managed to get one to one >direct verbal communication with the Chief Engineer. IMHO the rest of >the team need to take a leaf out of his book. > >Bob Harrison. > > > > Bob, Feel free to speek for this American when roughing up the PFA because of Wilson. Better yet, why don't one or two of you British chaps bring ol' Wilson to the US and be sure to visit my place, when you do. ;) do not archive -- Jeff - A055 Waiting for a prop... -- ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:53:50 PM PST US From: Paul Boulet Subject: RE: Europa-List: europa club subscriptions running out --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Boulet To all concerned... I cancelled my credit card...no fraudulent charges were on it either. Hard to believe the FAA allows guys like me to fly instrument rated, eh? Paul Boulet, Europa for sale (what a great way to advertise it for sale!) N914PB... see it at www.barnstormers.com Cory Emberson wrote: --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cory Emberson" I just hope you don't have any fallout with your CC#! I promise I won't call the Psychic Hotline with it. :-) do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Paul Boulet Subject: Re: Europa-List: europa club subscriptions running out --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Boulet my apologies to all...guess I got the dummie award today Paul Boulet do not archive ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 04:13:00 PM PST US From: "Cory Emberson" Subject: RE: Europa-List: europa club subscriptions running out --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cory Emberson" >>To all concerned... I cancelled my credit card...no fraudulent charges were on it either.<< Good to hear that no one in cyberspace took advantage. >>Hard to believe the FAA allows guys like me to fly instrument rated, eh?<< Reminds me of a radio talk show host who was talking about the errant Cessna 150 last week, and whether he (the host) would ever consider flying: "Sometimes I stand in front of my refrigerator door for five minutes, trying to remember what I went there for. I should not be allowed to fly!" Yours in the human race, Cory do not archive, fer gosh sakes :-) Paul Boulet, Europa for sale (what a great way to advertise it for sale!) N914PB... see it at www.barnstormers.com Cory Emberson wrote: --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cory Emberson" I just hope you don't have any fallout with your CC#! I promise I won't call the Psychic Hotline with it. :-) do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Paul Boulet Subject: Re: Europa-List: europa club subscriptions running out --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Boulet my apologies to all...guess I got the dummie award today Paul Boulet do not archive ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:36 PM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Re: Europa-List: The price of Bacon Butties --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" | Sorry Fergus! The exchange rate may not be good, but my bacon butty and | coffee cost less than two pounds on Wednesday. | | Cheers, Dother Bryan. Bryan, The only way I can think that you paid but two quid is if you walked to it mon ami. If however you flew, there's gas, oil, insurance, PFA fees, wear and tear and perhaps EU fees yet to be levied. Don't forget the magazine with the landing fee pass. That's how the hundred dollar hamburger began.............. Cheers, Ferg If I took another coffee, I'd have to add the medical fees (parking, gas, oil, w&t, etc) then there's that great favourite, the income tax you gave the givvermint for the amount you spent....... it's all gone.