---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 06/30/05: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:57 AM - Re: Tri-gear adjustment, fireproof resin, carbon fiber strips (R.C.Harrison) 2. 12:58 AM - FW: Tri-gear adjustment, fireproof resin, carbon fiber strips (R.C.Harrison) 3. 10:50 AM - Re: Rotax 912S Starting Problems (Richard Holder) 4. 10:52 AM - Re: Mylar Gap Seals (Pete Lawless) 5. 01:31 PM - Re: Rotax 912S Starting Problems (Duncan McFadyean) 6. 01:32 PM - Re: Mylar Gap Seals (Duncan McFadyean) 7. 01:43 PM - Re: Rotax 912S Starting Problems (Terry Seaver (terrys)) 8. 07:00 PM - Re: Rotax 912S Starting Problems (David DeFord) 9. 11:09 PM - Re: Rotax 912S Starting Problems (Duncan McFadyean) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:57:12 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tri-gear adjustment, fireproof resin, carbon fiber strips --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! Steve. I have raised this question a number of times but any "fix" is likely to be a costly exercise in design and consequent cost let alone official approval. IMHO since the original Europa Concept was a Monowheel with retract facility the trike became an add on quick fix since it wasn't expected to be so popular. I even built G-PTAG as a "convertible" intending to revert to Mono when I had completed flight training. In my case I don't think it will ever become a priority for me to convert to the Mono configuration. Again IMHO the toe in of the stub axles in the build alignment method doesn't make any allowances for the loads of the wings, un-useable fuel, and pilot since in the process none of these items are present and so reacting on the gear legs. It would be however a complete disaster should you finish up with toe out whilst trying to make allowances. It needs some experimentation undertaking to find an optimum location for castor and toe and parallel settings to be discovered. I have encouraged a friend to try to achieve the best possible position and I know he has made an effort but there will have had to be a compromise since should the cured alignment be unsatisfactory it would be an extensive rip out to start over. My experience has not been good with at least 3 sets of tyres in say 650 hours. (But I have changed my tyres last with a harder compound and to date they seem to be holding out better.) Concerning a fix for future adjustment my thoughts have centred around a "U" bolt clamping arrangement by application of "U " bolts through the 3/4" ply fillets, and a method of an adjustable cap on top of the legs. This cap would be available as a range of caps with the drillings for the legs made rotationally in 1 degree spacings over say a 3 degree range or perhaps with research even less since 1/2 degree would translate into a massive change to the toe in settings. Alternatively the location holes in the top of the gear legs could be radially slotted enabling a range of inserts to be engaged with differing radial alignments of the location bolt. However the available metal in the top of the gear legs is very limited for this concept. IMHO this matter is of considerable importance when reviewed in the light of an excessive toe in producing additional drag in the take off run as well as unreasonable tyre wear. However the question of bending the legs is a complete "NO NO" IMHO. They are made of spring steel and considerable research would need applying with regards to heat treatment prior to bending and after bending. They are immensely strong since as a bystander I saw my a/c bounce to a height of some 12 ft when loaded "two POB" on an alleged wind shear situation on test. They bent, without permanent yield, so far as to split the fibre glass fairings wide open in two locations over their lengths. Of course tire wear is not an item of concern if you always fly from grass! I also recommend that you closely examine the suitability of the tube supplied with the nose wheel, lightly inflate the tube in the tyre without the wheel hub and ensure there is no creases since I have suffered two failures clearly showing crease marks due to the tube being 3.5" cross section diameter when a 3" CROSS SECTION IS NEEDED. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300 -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of SteveD Subject: Europa-List: Tri-gear adjustment, fireproof resin, carbon fiber strips --> Europa-List message posted by: "SteveD" 1. I am building a motor-glider tri-gear and have been concerned about adjustments to the tri-gear main gear arms. Once the sockets are molded in (even assuming I get them at the correct angle) the only way to adjust them if not correct initially or if perchance I made a rough landing (very small probability) is to bend the arms - this seems less than optimal. I have designed a way to adjust the main gear arms using a larger diameter tube bonded to the the X-bracing and then adjust the socket within this - it would be some work but would give me the ability to adjust toe-in and toe-out and distance between the wheels. My questions is - is alignment a real problem - in talking with Clift Shaw (who I met in a castle in Ireland) - it appears he had a problem wearing out tires in the first hundred and some hours - so is it worth the effort to be able to align the main gear arms, given that the load is always different - any help from those that are flying trigears? 2. I am building the plane with the Hi-Top mod- but don't have the Hi-Top bottom canoe - so I need to build up the sides (I am making this piece as per the factory instructions) - and need to build up the firewall also. Any sources for fireproof resin? 3. I wanted to reinforce some areas using 2" or so strips of carbon fiber - any sources for finished carbon fiber - I would rather not have to learn how to work with carbon fiber cloth. Thanks Gary Leinberger Lancaster, Pa. A237 P.S. This Email has my address because I was upgrading the forum, and I stepped on Gary's post. ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:58:17 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: FW: Europa-List: Tri-gear adjustment, fireproof resin, carbon fiber strips --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: R.C.Harrison [mailto:ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk] Subject: RE: Europa-List: Tri-gear adjustment, fireproof resin, carbon fiber strips Hi! Steve. I have raised this question a number of times but any "fix" is likely to be a costly exercise in design and consequent cost let alone official approval. IMHO since the original Europa Concept was a Monowheel with retract facility the trike became an add on quick fix since it wasn't expected to be so popular. I even built G-PTAG as a "convertible" intending to revert to Mono when I had completed flight training. In my case I don't think it will ever become a priority for me to convert to the Mono configuration. Again IMHO the toe in of the stub axles in the build alignment method doesn't make any allowances for the loads of the wings, un-useable fuel, and pilot since in the process none of these items are present and so reacting on the gear legs. It would be however a complete disaster should you finish up with toe out whilst trying to make allowances. It needs some experimentation undertaking to find an optimum location for castor and toe and parallel settings to be discovered. I have encouraged a friend to try to achieve the best possible position and I know he has made an effort but there will have had to be a compromise since should the cured alignment be unsatisfactory it would be an extensive rip out to start over. My experience has not been good with at least 3 sets of tyres in say 650 hours. (But I have changed my tyres last with a harder compound and to date they seem to be holding out better.) Concerning a fix for future adjustment my thoughts have centred around a "U" bolt clamping arrangement by application of "U " bolts through the 3/4" ply fillets, and a method of an adjustable cap on top of the legs. This cap would be available as a range of caps with the drillings for the legs made rotationally in 1 degree spacings over say a 3 degree range or perhaps with research even less since 1/2 degree would translate into a massive change to the toe in settings. Alternatively the location holes in the top of the gear legs could be radially slotted enabling a range of inserts to be engaged with differing radial alignments of the location bolt. However the available metal in the top of the gear legs is very limited for this concept. IMHO this matter is of considerable importance when reviewed in the light of an excessive toe in producing additional drag in the take off run as well as unreasonable tyre wear. However the question of bending the legs is a complete "NO NO" IMHO. They are made of spring steel and considerable research would need applying with regards to heat treatment prior to bending and after bending. They are immensely strong since as a bystander I saw my a/c bounce to a height of some 12 ft when loaded "two POB" on an alleged wind shear situation on test. They bent, without permanent yield, so far as to split the fibre glass fairings wide open in two locations over their lengths. Of course tire wear is not an item of concern if you always fly from grass! I also recommend that you closely examine the suitability of the tube supplied with the nose wheel, lightly inflate the tube in the tyre without the wheel hub and ensure there is no creases since I have suffered two failures clearly showing crease marks due to the tube being 3.5" cross section diameter when a 3" CROSS SECTION IS NEEDED. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300 -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of SteveD Subject: Europa-List: Tri-gear adjustment, fireproof resin, carbon fiber strips --> Europa-List message posted by: "SteveD" 1. I am building a motor-glider tri-gear and have been concerned about adjustments to the tri-gear main gear arms. Once the sockets are molded in (even assuming I get them at the correct angle) the only way to adjust them if not correct initially or if perchance I made a rough landing (very small probability) is to bend the arms - this seems less than optimal. I have designed a way to adjust the main gear arms using a larger diameter tube bonded to the the X-bracing and then adjust the socket within this - it would be some work but would give me the ability to adjust toe-in and toe-out and distance between the wheels. My questions is - is alignment a real problem - in talking with Clift Shaw (who I met in a castle in Ireland) - it appears he had a problem wearing out tires in the first hundred and some hours - so is it worth the effort to be able to align the main gear arms, given that the load is always different - any help from those that are flying trigears? 2. I am building the plane with the Hi-Top mod- but don't have the Hi-Top bottom canoe - so I need to build up the sides (I am making this piece as per the factory instructions) - and need to build up the firewall also. Any sources for fireproof resin? 3. I wanted to reinforce some areas using 2" or so strips of carbon fiber - any sources for finished carbon fiber - I would rather not have to learn how to work with carbon fiber cloth. Thanks Gary Leinberger Lancaster, Pa. A237 P.S. This Email has my address because I was upgrading the forum, and I stepped on Gary's post. ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:50:15 AM PST US From: Richard Holder Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 912S Starting Problems --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder Terry Seaver (terrys) wrote: > The next day we called Lockwood again, and was given > advice on starting without kickback. This weekend we > flew the plane four times with both cold and hot starts > using the recommended technique, and all were good > starts (no kickback). We FINALLY have a usable plane > again. THANKS Lockwood Aviation. > > So, for anyone with a 912S that has no slipper clutch, > get one if you have starting problems. Hell, even if > you don't have starting problems (yet), get it anyway, > you also get a smoother idle out of the deal. > > regards, Terry Seaver A135 / N135TD > > BTW: The recommended technique that got rid of the > dreaded kickback; cold start- 1) crack the throttle > about 3/16" 2) start cranking the engine with ignition > enabled and choke off (in) 3) after starter gets up to > speed, pull the choke out. > > warm start- 1) crack the throttle about 3/16" 2) > disable ignition 3) start cranking the engine 4) when > starter is up to speed, enable ignition. Interesting. After 50 hours my 912S with Airmaster and slipper clutch was not starting well. It would churn and churn and sometimes kick back. However it always started eventually (maybe after 10 minutes of effort). Then at 100 hours and the second winter it got worse and eventually wouldn't start at all. The starter just whirred and the prop didn't go round at all. So it was onto the trailer to get someone recommended (Adrian Lloyd at Shobdon - 4 1/2 hours away) to do it. He changed the sprag clutch in-situ (I have a classic with XS firewall forward) and changed to the HD starter motor. It cost me 1000 plus. But what a difference ! It now starts on the button instantly every single time. When cold with no throttle and full choke, when hot with a crack of throttle and no choke. I have no need for the crank-and-switch-on-mags routine. I do turn the fuel pump on for 6 seconds (and then off) when the engine is cold, and for 3 seconds when the engine is warm. if the engine is very warm because it is a hot day I use the electric pump for 8 - 10 seconds to purge as much vapor as possible. So mine is completely different to yours. I get no kickback whatsoever with mine now. The HD starter just powers past the TDC position and the engine fires without a kickback. I wonder whether you have an ignition timing problem. I assume that you can detect a huge increase in the speed that the starter turns over the engine - I would estimate it turns almost twice as quick. And did you have to hack off a piece of the back cover plate ? I ask to be sure that you definitely have the HD starter :-) I have recently received a Lockwood catalog. The prices are just amazing compared with Rotax prices here in England. I notice it specifically says that the 912S is supplied now with the HD starter. The last time I asked it was an extra here. I felt that if the 912S is now supplied with an HD starter Rotax was admitting that the engine NEEDED an HD starter and so were liable for problems caused by the original design with a standard starter. I felt that at the very least the HD starter should have been provided at a sensible rate, and really Rotax were liable for the cost of my sprag clutch as it was their error in not using the HD starter from the word go. Needless to say when asked Rotax Austria put me straight back to Rotax UK and there was no-way they were going to do ANYTHING :-( I felt completely ripped off by the Rotax system. However I am so grateful that the problem is fixed that I have just put it down to experience, but I am telling everyone to get the HD starter ! Richard Richard F.W. Holder 01279 842804 (POTS) Bell House, Bell Lane, 01279 842942 (fax) Widford, Ware, Herts, 07860 367423 (mobile) SG12 8SH email : richard.holder@avnet.co.uk Europa Classic Tri-gear : G-OWWW, High Cross PA-28-181 : Piper Archer : G-JANA, EGSG (Stapleford) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:52:45 AM PST US From: "Pete Lawless" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mylar Gap Seals --> Europa-List message posted by: "Pete Lawless" Hi All I have gap stips installed on ailerons, rudder and stabilator trim tabs. Can't comment on changes in performance as they were fitted before the aeroplane flew, but they certainly do not cause any problems. One assumes they can only be beneficial. Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Duncan McFadyean Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mylar Gap Seals --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" --> I've seen them fitted to the ailerons of a UK-registered Europa, but have no idea how well they performed. Would be interested to find out; perhaps if you have any useful responses to your message you could forward them on. Duncan McF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Crimm" Subject: Europa-List: Mylar Gap Seals > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Steve Crimm" > > > Flight, > > I have read several posts concerning Mylar gap seals. But my question > is, has anyone installed them yet recently? If you have please > contact me off list. -- -- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:31:59 PM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 912S Starting Problems --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <> It was offered at half price last year. By Lockwood! I raised this with the UK agent at the time, who's response was that they must have found a cheap automotive equivalent to be able to do this. Duncan Mcf do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Holder" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 912S Starting Problems ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:32:20 PM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mylar Gap Seals --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" Pete, Can you quote a Mod No. for that please. Duncan mcF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Lawless" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Mylar Gap Seals > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Pete Lawless" > > Hi All > > I have gap stips installed on ailerons, rudder and stabilator trim tabs. > Can't comment on changes in performance as they were fitted before the > aeroplane flew, but they certainly do not cause any problems. One > assumes they can only be beneficial. > > Regards > > Pete > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Duncan > McFadyean > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mylar Gap Seals > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" > --> > > I've seen them fitted to the ailerons of a UK-registered Europa, but > have no > idea how well they performed. Would be interested to find out; perhaps > if > you have any useful responses to your message you could forward them on. > > Duncan McF > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Crimm" > To: > Subject: Europa-List: Mylar Gap Seals > > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Steve Crimm" >> >> >> Flight, >> >> I have read several posts concerning Mylar gap seals. But my question > >> is, has anyone installed them yet recently? If you have please >> contact me off list. > > > -- > > > -- > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:43:40 PM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Rotax 912S Starting Problems From: "Terry Seaver (terrys)" --> Europa-List message posted by: "Terry Seaver (terrys)" Hi Richard, Our prop also turns noticeably faster with the HD starter, and we do about the same with the boost pump, I just neglected to mention that part. Also, the ignition timing is driven by pickup coils fixed to the engine case, around the flywheel, so there is virtually no way I am aware of for it to get off. Ours used to start with the techniques you mentioned, for about the first 50-100 hours, then got progressively worse after that. It could be because the engine frees up after break-in, or perhaps the compression goes up due to lead/carbon deposits in the cylinder heads. It is also odd that we never got kickback until we had the slipper clutch installed. Regards, Terry Seaver Richard Holder wrote: ... It cost me 1000 plus. But what a difference ! It now starts on the button instantly every single time. When cold with no throttle and full choke, when hot with a crack of throttle and no choke. I have no need for the crank-and-switch-on-mags routine. I do turn the fuel pump on for 6 seconds (and then off) when the engine is cold, and for 3 seconds when the engine is warm. if the engine is very warm because it is a hot day I use the electric pump for 8 - 10 seconds to purge as much vapor as possible. So mine is completely different to yours. I get no kickback whatsoever with mine now. The HD starter just powers past the TDC position and the engine fires without a kickback. I wonder whether you have an ignition timing problem. I assume that you can detect a huge increase in the speed that the starter turns over the engine - I would estimate it turns almost twice as quick. And did you have to hack off a piece of the back cover plate ? I ask to be sure that you definitely have the HD starter :-) ... Richard Richard F.W. Holder 01279 842804 (POTS) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:00:32 PM PST US From: "David DeFord" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Rotax 912S Starting Problems --> Europa-List message posted by: "David DeFord" > < least the HD starter should have been provided at a > sensible rate,>> > > It was offered at half price last year. By Lockwood! > I raised this with the UK agent at the time, who's response > was that they > must have found a cheap automotive equivalent to be able to do this. > > Duncan Mcf We bought the HD starter from Lockwood a few weeks ago, and they gave us a credit of just over $100 for returning the old (non-HD) starter to them, for a net cost of $200. The unit they shipped is stamped with the Rotax part number and a serial number. I have never gotten anything but genuine Rotax parts from Lockwood, so I assume that this is the real thing also. Dave DeFord N135TD ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:09:28 PM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 912S Starting Problems --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" I never doubted that Lockwood would have been offering the genuine part; rather, it was just the excuse of the UK agent not to follow-suite. That said, the basic starter and gear reduction is an automotive part, with Rotax interface added. Now there's a thought! Duncan McF ----- Original Message ----- From: "David DeFord" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Rotax 912S Starting Problems > --> Europa-List message posted by: "David DeFord" > >> <> least the HD starter should have been provided at a >> sensible rate,>> >> >> It was offered at half price last year. By Lockwood! >> I raised this with the UK agent at the time, who's response >> was that they >> must have found a cheap automotive equivalent to be able to do this. >> >> Duncan Mcf > > We bought the HD starter from Lockwood a few weeks ago, and they gave us a > credit of just over $100 for returning the old (non-HD) starter to them, > for > a net cost of $200. The unit they shipped is stamped with the Rotax part > number and a serial number. I have never gotten anything but genuine > Rotax > parts from Lockwood, so I assume that this is the real thing also. > > Dave DeFord > N135TD