---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 08/04/05: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:25 AM - Re: engines (Kingsley Hurst) 2. 11:13 AM - Re: engines (Andy Silvester) 3. 11:32 AM - I.O.M. Festival of Aviation (Alan Burrows) 4. 12:32 PM - Re: I.O.M. Festival of Aviation (Duncan McFadyean) 5. 01:08 PM - Re: I.O.M. Festival of Aviation (Richard Iddon) 6. 01:46 PM - Re: engines (Rowland Carson) 7. 03:21 PM - Re: engines (Andy Silvester) 8. 03:28 PM - Re: engines (Kingsley Hurst) 9. 04:08 PM - Re: engines (Rob Housman) 10. 04:10 PM - Re: engines (Rob Housman) 11. 05:19 PM - engines and props (Graham Singleton) 12. 06:45 PM - Re: engines and props (Andy Silvester) 13. 07:12 PM - Engine Mount Washers (Tony Renshaw) 14. 09:59 PM - Re: I.O.M. Festival of Aviation (William Mills) 15. 10:02 PM - Re: engines and props (JEFF ROBERTS) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:25:08 AM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: Re: Europa-List: engines --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" > At (even) a > cruise speed of 160kts a 58" propeller turning 3000 rpm is working very > well. We sell Jabiru engines to airplanes much faster than the Europa > (i.e. > with a wider speed range) with no adverse feedback on high-end > performance. Hello Andy, Could you please advise what aircraft types you are referring to above with respect to their 'wider speed range'. I'd also be interested to know what actual speeds you are referring to as well please. Regards Kingsley in Oz. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 11:13:44 AM PST US From: "Andy Silvester" Subject: RE: Europa-List: engines --> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester" Kingsley, Pulsar, Rand KR-2, Sonex, Esqual, Dragonfly and others of similar design and performance. Speeds between 45 kts and 160 kts (cruise). Typical prop size on the faster ones is 54" Dia x 64" pitch. The Europa / Jabiru 3300 goes well on a 58" x 62". Andy Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. www.suncoastjabiru.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kingsley Hurst Subject: Re: Europa-List: engines --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" > At (even) a > cruise speed of 160kts a 58" propeller turning 3000 rpm is working very > well. We sell Jabiru engines to airplanes much faster than the Europa > (i.e. > with a wider speed range) with no adverse feedback on high-end > performance. Hello Andy, Could you please advise what aircraft types you are referring to above with respect to their 'wider speed range'. I'd also be interested to know what actual speeds you are referring to as well please. Regards Kingsley in Oz. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:32:21 AM PST US From: "Alan Burrows" Subject: Europa-List: I.O.M. Festival of Aviation --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows" Hello All I just got the weather forecast for this weekend from met and they tell me it should be nice both Saturday and Sunday (now that's the kiss of death). Anyway in an effort to tempt fate I thought I would organise one of those great British rain making ceremonies known as "the barbeque" for Sunday. So please let me know if you can make it over either for one or both days. It's a great festival honestly. Cheers Alan PS don't forget WE have control over the radio so all Europa's have priority over the RAF and all other aircraft :-) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:32:24 PM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: I.O.M. Festival of Aviation --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" Count me in for Sunday, if the better of the two current Met Office interpretations holds true. Arriving approx. 10.30 local. Duncan McF do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Burrows" Subject: Europa-List: I.O.M. Festival of Aviation > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows" > > > Hello All > > I just got the weather forecast for this weekend from met and they tell > me it should be nice both Saturday and Sunday (now that's the kiss of > death). Anyway in an effort to tempt fate I thought I would organise one > of those great British rain making ceremonies known as "the barbeque" > for Sunday. So please let me know if you can make it over either for one > or both days. > It's a great festival honestly. > > Cheers > > Alan > PS don't forget WE have control over the radio so all Europa's have > priority over the RAF and all other aircraft :-) > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:08:16 PM PST US From: "Richard Iddon" Subject: RE: Europa-List: I.O.M. Festival of Aviation --> Europa-List message posted by: "Richard Iddon" I am planning to be there Sunday also, around the same time. Richard Iddon G-RIXS Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Duncan McFadyean Subject: Re: Europa-List: I.O.M. Festival of Aviation --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" Count me in for Sunday, if the better of the two current Met Office interpretations holds true. Arriving approx. 10.30 local. Duncan McF do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:46:57 PM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: RE: Europa-List: engines --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson At 2005-08-03 12:16 -0700 Rob Housman wrote: >The inefficiency of metal to air >heat transfer is apparent to anyone who ever tried to get warm during winter >in an automobile or airplane with an air cooled engine and an exhaust muff >style heater. Brrrr. Rob - maybe you've been unlucky, but my own experience of heaters in air-cooled cars has been only positive. My Citroen GS and GSA both had outstanding heater performance, and gave out hot air within a few hundred yards of a cold (down to 0C) start. It was often as quick to melt windscreen ice with the heater than to scrape it off. Perhaps the higher temperatures attained by the exhaust pipes compensates for the lower efficiency of transfer, or maybe you're talking about much lower ambient temperatures than we experience in UK. regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson PFA #16532 | 750 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:21:19 PM PST US From: "Andy Silvester" Subject: RE: Europa-List: engines --> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester" Rowland - I bet Rob's thinking of the VW (Beetle etc) heater; you'd almost certainly be at your destination by the time it was up to temperature :-) Andy Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. www.suncoastjabiru.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rowland Carson Subject: RE: Europa-List: engines --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson At 2005-08-03 12:16 -0700 Rob Housman wrote: >The inefficiency of metal to air >heat transfer is apparent to anyone who ever tried to get warm during winter >in an automobile or airplane with an air cooled engine and an exhaust muff >style heater. Brrrr. Rob - maybe you've been unlucky, but my own experience of heaters in air-cooled cars has been only positive. My Citroen GS and GSA both had outstanding heater performance, and gave out hot air within a few hundred yards of a cold (down to 0C) start. It was often as quick to melt windscreen ice with the heater than to scrape it off. Perhaps the higher temperatures attained by the exhaust pipes compensates for the lower efficiency of transfer, or maybe you're talking about much lower ambient temperatures than we experience in UK. regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson PFA #16532 | 750 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:28:23 PM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: RE: Europa-List: engines --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" > Kingsley, > Pulsar, Rand KR-2, Sonex, Esqual, Dragonfly . . . . . Thank you Andy, Cheers Kingsley Do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:08:19 PM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: engines --> Europa-List message posted by: "Rob Housman" Rowland, you are being a perfect "straight man" to set this up and I just can't resist... On this side of the pond our experience with the cars that were at one time imported from UK (such as MG, Austin Healy, Jaguar, and my personal favorite, Lotus) was that even these water cooled engines had inadequate heaters and defrosters that did neither in climates not unlike UK. So, you're thinking of the French heaters as effective is to be expected :) . Seriously, my experience with exhaust muff heaters is limited to when I lived in northern New York (45 deg N, 75 deg W) where winter daytime highs would often be around minus 15 C for days at a time (and don't even ask about the overnight lows), and in particular with 1960s vintage VW bugs. Porsches of the era were not any better. To describe these heaters as inadequate is to make them sound much better than they were. Here in SoCal we need only an effective air conditioner (with a bit of re-heat for comfort) to clear the fog from the inside of the windshield during our rainy season. Your point about the Citroens' (not seen in the US for decades) EGT providing more heat may be off a bit, but you are on the right track (it is simply a better design). Higher EGT certainly would help, but most likely there is little difference in EGT among air cooled auto engines. Citroen apparently has a truly effective heat exchanger, meaning that there is probably much more surface area in the muff available for getting exhaust heat from the pipes to the interior of the car. DO NOT ARCHIVE Best regards, Rob Housman Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete Irvine, CA -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rowland Carson Subject: RE: Europa-List: engines --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson At 2005-08-03 12:16 -0700 Rob Housman wrote: >The inefficiency of metal to air >heat transfer is apparent to anyone who ever tried to get warm during winter >in an automobile or airplane with an air cooled engine and an exhaust muff >style heater. Brrrr. Rob - maybe you've been unlucky, but my own experience of heaters in air-cooled cars has been only positive. My Citroen GS and GSA both had outstanding heater performance, and gave out hot air within a few hundred yards of a cold (down to 0C) start. It was often as quick to melt windscreen ice with the heater than to scrape it off. Perhaps the higher temperatures attained by the exhaust pipes compensates for the lower efficiency of transfer, or maybe you're talking about much lower ambient temperatures than we experience in UK. regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson PFA #16532 | 750 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:10:40 PM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: engines --> Europa-List message posted by: "Rob Housman" Right on! except for the "up to temperature" part, unless it was a long drive in a southerly direction,. DO NOT ARCHIVE Best regards, Rob Housman Europa XS Tri-Gear A070 Airframe complete Irvine, CA -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Andy Silvester Subject: RE: Europa-List: engines --> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester" Rowland - I bet Rob's thinking of the VW (Beetle etc) heater; you'd almost certainly be at your destination by the time it was up to temperature :-) Andy Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. www.suncoastjabiru.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rowland Carson Subject: RE: Europa-List: engines --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson At 2005-08-03 12:16 -0700 Rob Housman wrote: >The inefficiency of metal to air >heat transfer is apparent to anyone who ever tried to get warm during winter >in an automobile or airplane with an air cooled engine and an exhaust muff >style heater. Brrrr. Rob - maybe you've been unlucky, but my own experience of heaters in air-cooled cars has been only positive. My Citroen GS and GSA both had outstanding heater performance, and gave out hot air within a few hundred yards of a cold (down to 0C) start. It was often as quick to melt windscreen ice with the heater than to scrape it off. Perhaps the higher temperatures attained by the exhaust pipes compensates for the lower efficiency of transfer, or maybe you're talking about much lower ambient temperatures than we experience in UK. regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson PFA #16532 | 750 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:17 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Europa-List: engines and props --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester" > >Graham, > >Perhaps other air-cooled aero engine owners will back me up here, but I'm >not sure what you mean by "...that it is not possible to optimise the >performance of any air cooled engine, >bearing in mind that most of the world's reciprocating aero engines are >direct drive, air cooled I think your statement needs clarification. > > Hi Andy most of the worlds pistom aero engines were designed a long time ago and in spite of advances in materials , have not really advanced much in efficiency. The highest performance engines were all liquid cooled. (Rolls Royce Merlin, Napier Sabre, Junkers Jumo, et al) In wartime the compromise may not be aimed at performance. There is always a compromise. >Also, the Europa is NOT an aircraft which needs to have a large propeller >turning less than 2000 rpm for optimum high speed operation. At (even) a >cruise speed of 160kts a 58" propeller turning 3000 rpm is working very >well. > "There is no substitute for span!" props or wings! Also at 3000rpm &160kts what is the tip speed? 0'7Mach? ( confess I'm too lazy to work it out) but with a fat wooden prop section compressibility will certainl;y be costing energy. Agree wood is the original composite but it has it's limitations. A mixture of S glass and carbon is the best so far. (solid carbon is too stiff) (imho) which is why the Arplast is more comfortable to fly behind than the Airmaster/Warp drive. For some reason Alain declined to make blades for our NZ friends. Pity, they would have a good combination of engineering and aerodynamic artistry... > the VP propeller performance has more to do with the Rotax's >relatively peaky power and torque curves rather than the wider speed range >of the aircraft. > Andy, it's not the engine that's the problem, it's the prop! At early take off the prop is largely stalled because of the high angle of attack. The finer the pitch the quicker it unstalls and starts to work. With a fixed pitch prop if it works well at start it will over rev in the cruise. I like the idea and principle of the Jab but it can never win because of the basic laws of physics. Here in the UK we hear of warped heads and other problems but that may well be poor installation design. There is always a compromise and I am inclined to think that the complication of liquid cooling is a better alternative. Bear in mind that Rotax 9xx engines havwe been shown to survive good hour ove the sea even when only aircooled. Graham ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:38 PM PST US From: "Andy Silvester" Subject: RE: Europa-List: engines and props --> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester" Hi Graham, I'm not disagreeing with you regarding the physics and theory (!) but thanks for the info - interesting. Here on the "Rotax/Europa" (hehe) list I fully expect to be challenged regarding the capabilities of the Jabiru engine, particularly in reference to its track-record in UK-based Europas. However, much has happened over the last 4 or 5 years in terms of the engine's development but (more importantly) the improved knowledge and experience of installation methods - including cooling performance. Of course, it's easy to look back and remember those who struggled in the early days (steady, now, Bob!) and draw conclusions which perhaps don't reflect the reality of the present situation. My focus with the Europa/Jabiru 3300 installation is clearly in USA where the engine is gaining very quickly in popularity in a wide range of aircraft. I feel fortunate to have sampled the markets and Customers on both sides of the pond (I moved here from UK to sell these things over 4 years ago) and it's true that the massive installed-base of the ubiquitous Lycoming / Continental makes it easier for us to promote and sell a direct - drive air-cooled engine with the Jabiru's size, weight, TBO and performance (It's nice and shiny too). The Rotax is a great engine and you won't hear me rubbishing it. Heck, if Jabiru can sell HALF the number that Rotax has to date we'll be doing very well (here's hoping). I should leave it to Jabiru owners here on the list to explain their reasons for purchase but I'll bet the list will include "simpler", "cheaper and easier to maintain", "better sounding", "nicer looking", etc. It's great that people are free to choose from a range of suitable engines. I had to laugh at Oshkosh last week where I heard a guy who was peering into our Jabiru engine installation (top cowling off) and saying that 'by comparison the Rotax is like looking into a nuclear power plant.....'). Yes, of course there were probably a different set of people on Rotax's booth discussing the finer points of propeller efficiency or engine thermodynamics but hey, that's fine with me, and people make their choices on a wide range of requirements. Everyone knows that Ford trucks have better air conditioners than GM, but GM still sells lots of trucks..... In short, I think there's room for all of us here. Cheers, Andy Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. www.suncoastjabiru.com ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:32 PM PST US From: Tony Renshaw Subject: Europa-List: Engine Mount Washers --> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw Gidday, I have a second hand engine mount for a Rotax with the old rubbers and washers. On closer inspection 7 of the 8 silver "rubber mount" washers are of a thin gauge, and one is quite thick, possibly twice as thick at about 3-4mm. It is also about twice the weight. This mount was exposed to significant force and has had to be rebuilt, and recertified, however it stood up well, however the poor washers didn't. I want to get some new ones and am wondering if anyone might know why the 2 separate grades of thickness, and whether the thinner gauge ones were never the correct ones, or vica versa? Thanks in anticipation. Reg Tony Renshaw ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:52 PM PST US From: "William Mills" Subject: Re: Europa-List: I.O.M. Festival of Aviation --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills" Hi Alan, Paul Sweeting and I are planning on Sunday. Tell Kate to clear the skys for about 10.30 local. Best wishes, William ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Burrows" Subject: Europa-List: I.O.M. Festival of Aviation > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows" > > > Hello All > > I just got the weather forecast for this weekend from met and they tell > me it should be nice both Saturday and Sunday (now that's the kiss of > death). Anyway in an effort to tempt fate I thought I would organise one > of those great British rain making ceremonies known as "the barbeque" > for Sunday. So please let me know if you can make it over either for one > or both days. > It's a great festival honestly. > > Cheers > > Alan > PS don't forget WE have control over the radio so all Europa's have > priority over the RAF and all other aircraft :-) > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:32 PM PST US From: JEFF ROBERTS Subject: Re: Europa-List: engines and props --> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS Easy Andy! My new Chevy Silverado work truck freezes me out of the cab in about a mile and a half. And it's been 96 degrees in Tennessee lately. Of course I sold and preferred Fords for years. Hmm your right! There is room for everyone, and to each his own. Hope I didn't start a GM Ford battle on the forum. Just finished painting on some stripes... This is starting to look good! Looks like it's just about time to fire this thing up as soon as I get some foam to sit on. Anyone here in the states know someone thats no doing nice Europa interiors? Jeff A258 Do not archive. On Aug 4, 2005, at 8:44 PM, Andy Silvester wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester" > > > Hi Graham, > > I'm not disagreeing with you regarding the physics and theory (!) but > thanks > for the info - interesting. > > Here on the "Rotax/Europa" (hehe) list I fully expect to be challenged > regarding the capabilities of the Jabiru engine, particularly in > reference > to its track-record in UK-based Europas. However, much has happened > over the > last 4 or 5 years in terms of the engine's development but (more > importantly) the improved knowledge and experience of installation > methods > - including cooling performance. Of course, it's easy to look back and > remember those who struggled in the early days (steady, now, Bob!) and > draw > conclusions which perhaps don't reflect the reality of the present > situation. > > My focus with the Europa/Jabiru 3300 installation is clearly in USA > where > the engine is gaining very quickly in popularity in a wide range of > aircraft. I feel fortunate to have sampled the markets and Customers > on both > sides of the pond (I moved here from UK to sell these things over 4 > years > ago) and it's true that the massive installed-base of the ubiquitous > Lycoming / Continental makes it easier for us to promote and sell a > direct - > drive air-cooled engine with the Jabiru's size, weight, TBO and > performance > (It's nice and shiny too). > > The Rotax is a great engine and you won't hear me rubbishing it. Heck, > if > Jabiru can sell HALF the number that Rotax has to date we'll be doing > very > well (here's hoping). I should leave it to Jabiru owners here on the > list to > explain their reasons for purchase but I'll bet the list will include > "simpler", "cheaper and easier to maintain", "better sounding", "nicer > looking", etc. It's great that people are free to choose from a range > of > suitable engines. I had to laugh at Oshkosh last week where I heard a > guy > who was peering into our Jabiru engine installation (top cowling off) > and > saying that 'by comparison the Rotax is like looking into a nuclear > power > plant.....'). Yes, of course there were probably a different set of > people > on Rotax's booth discussing the finer points of propeller efficiency or > engine thermodynamics but hey, that's fine with me, and people make > their > choices on a wide range of requirements. Everyone knows that Ford > trucks > have better air conditioners than GM, but GM still sells lots of > trucks..... > > In short, I think there's room for all of us here. > > Cheers, Andy > > > Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. > www.suncoastjabiru.com > >