Europa-List Digest Archive

Fri 08/05/05


Total Messages Posted: 12



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 05:51 AM - Re: engines (Fred Fillinger)
     2. 06:51 AM - Re: engines (Alexander Kaarsberg)
     3. 08:54 AM - Re: engines (Andy Silvester)
     4. 01:25 PM - Re: engines (Fred Fillinger)
     5. 02:32 PM - Re: engines (Andy Silvester)
     6. 02:42 PM - Re: I.O.M. Festival of Aviation (Bryan Allsop)
     7. 03:49 PM - Re: engines and props...Now without prejudice... (R.C.Harrison)
     8. 03:53 PM - Re: I.O.M. Festival of Aviation (R.C.Harrison)
     9. 04:51 PM - engine roughness update (Jerry Rehn)
    10. 05:52 PM - Re: engines (Fred Fillinger)
    11. 08:44 PM - Re: engine roughness update (Cliff Shaw)
    12. 09:06 PM - Look at "Europa 04" web page (Cliff Shaw)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 05:51:09 AM PST US
    From: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: engines
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net> > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester" > > Pulsar, Rand KR-2, Sonex, Esqual, Dragonfly and others > of similar design and performance. Speeds between 45 kts > and 160 kts (cruise). Most of these planes are lighter than a Europa. Pulsar says the 914 will go faster than the Jabiru 3300, by 18 mph. Esqual does not claim 160k cruise. In fact, their web site says that for the new FAA rules on light sport aircraft re 120k, well that's cruise speed exactly. The LSA rules say top speed, so they don't understand simple rules. Sonex doesn't claim 160k cruise. Sales brochure speeds are always overstated anyway. I think there's a kitplane exception in our mail and wire fraud statutes. :-) Reg, Fred F.


    Message 2


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    Time: 06:51:20 AM PST US
    Received-SPF: pass (ibadan.terra.com.br: domain of terra.com.br designates 200.176.10.7 as permitted sender) client-ip=200.176.10.7; envelope-from=kaarsber@terra.com.br; helo=terra.com.br; (authenticated user kaarsber)
    Subject: engines
    From: "Alexander Kaarsberg" <kaarsber@terra.com.br>
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alexander Kaarsberg" <kaarsber@terra.com.br> Gents, One factor worth remembering is that water is, if I remember right, the one substance that has the highest capacity to take up heat energy and that first of all that, together with the fact that it has a low viscosity makes it a perfect coolant, second that it explains why a water cooled engine on average takes longer to reach operating temps. There is more mass to heat up and if the thermostat also leaves water cycling to the radiator, you'll never get warm. The beetle's way of channelling the lukewarm air through the structure of the car is sure to loose a lot of calories too.... Without knowing the Jabiru myself I do believe that just like Lycossaurae it should be perfectly possible to cool it just right with the right amount of attention to detail, to achieve the highest possible efficiency attainable for the particular engine design/aircraft combination. That bring me to what I am curious about, numbers and numbers. What are the data such as fuel use, performance figures and cost/time of installation, prop combinations for the current installations, Europa or otherwise? Alex, kit 529 > Rob - maybe you've been unlucky, but my own experience of heaters in > air-cooled cars has been only positive. My Citroen GS and GSA both > had outstanding heater performance, and gave out hot air within a few > hundred yards of a cold (down to 0C) start. It was often as quick to > melt windscreen ice with the heater than to scrape it off. Perhaps > the higher temperatures attained by the exhaust pipes compensates for > the lower efficiency of transfer, or maybe you're talking about much > lower ambient temperatures than we experience in UK. > > regards > > Rowland > --


    Message 3


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    Time: 08:54:59 AM PST US
    From: "Andy Silvester" <andy@suncoastjabiru.com>
    Subject: engines
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester" <andy@suncoastjabiru.com> Hi Fred, Yeah, we're in the murky world of manufacturer's figures and the difference between them and real life. Perhaps surprisingly, many owners' often aircraft exceed manufacturers airframe figures because they shoe-horn bigger engines into them! I think the Sonex was originally designed for the VW and actually flies very well on the Jabiru 85hp engine. Notwithstanding, many 'rev-heads' (!) use the 120 hp engine and of course it goes faster. The USA Light Sport Aircraft rule requires a maximum 120kts 'at the manufacturer's stated maximum continuous rpm' and, since the Jabiru 3300 has a max continuous PUBLISHED rpm of 2750 it's easy to see how the aircraft will go faster at higher rpm. I know of Sonex owners who prefer to cruise at 3000 - 3100 rpm and we work with them to get mixture settings optimized for this speed. In case of continued debate about the '2750' figure from Jabiru, it was published when the 3300 came out and never revised in print. Since then, we are told by Jabiru that a figure 'more like 3100' rpm should be used for max continuous operation (they have run 50-hours non-stop at 3300 rpm on the dyno. for certification without issue), but they chose to leave the 2750 figure in print as it helps some manufacturers (like Esqual) obtain their 120kts at 2750 within the LSA market. I recall the original posting (more or less) said the Jabiru can't supply enough power at higher cruise speeds with its prop size, and I maintain that, on experience, I'm not aware of people turning away from the Jabiru on slick - aircraft types because they are unhappy with high-speed performance. Far from it. Ultimately, it's all about the propeller design and efficiency and, while I accept that a bigger prop turning slower does have a theoretical advantage, we don't see it as a limitation for the Jabiru engine at all. It's also a fact that some aircraft manufacturers suppress the Jabiru's capabilities in favor of Rotax because they make more money selling a Rotax than a Jabiru. It's a cruel world.... OK, we agree to differ, but thanks for giving me the chance to comment. Andy Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. www.suncoastjabiru.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Fillinger Subject: Re: Europa-List: engines --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net> > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester" > > Pulsar, Rand KR-2, Sonex, Esqual, Dragonfly and others > of similar design and performance. Speeds between 45 kts > and 160 kts (cruise). Most of these planes are lighter than a Europa. Pulsar says the 914 will go faster than the Jabiru 3300, by 18 mph. Esqual does not claim 160k cruise. In fact, their web site says that for the new FAA rules on light sport aircraft re 120k, well that's cruise speed exactly. The LSA rules say top speed, so they don't understand simple rules. Sonex doesn't claim 160k cruise. Sales brochure speeds are always overstated anyway. I think there's a kitplane exception in our mail and wire fraud statutes. :-) Reg, Fred F.


    Message 4


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    Time: 01:25:02 PM PST US
    From: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: engines
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net> > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester" <andy@suncoastjabiru.com> > > It's also a fact that some aircraft manufacturers suppress > the Jabiru's capabilities in favor of Rotax because they > make more money selling a Rotax than a Jabiru. It's a > cruel world.... > Could you post exact numbers regarding relative margins? Especially on the Rotax 914 -- not MSRP, but how much must they have to accept or they're not selling very many. I don't know enough about the 3300 to oppose it for any reason. Just tryin' to urge conclusions be taken a couple steps back to actual data, should this help a builder choose. Obviously if in buying a Rotax, much of our cost is reseller profit, the 3300 may have more intrinsic value. That's why big SUV's are relatively bad buys. Fred F.


    Message 5


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    Time: 02:32:51 PM PST US
    From: "Andy Silvester" <andy@suncoastjabiru.com>
    Subject: engines
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester" <andy@suncoastjabiru.com> Hi Fred, Perhaps unsurprisingly, it wouldn't be very professional of me to discuss specific dealer margins here. I didn't want to open a debate about it, just wanted to point out that sometimes products are promoted (or otherwise) based not necessarily on the product's performance or value, but for other business reasons. If you sold Rotax engines at (for example) a net margin of 16% where you could only get (say) 7%-8% for a Jabiru, would it affect your promotion of the Jabiru? I'm not bitching about it, just pointing out that across manufacturers, there isn't always a level playing field. Cheers Andy Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. www.suncoastjabiru.com > > It's also a fact that some aircraft manufacturers suppress > the Jabiru's capabilities in favor of Rotax because they > make more money selling a Rotax than a Jabiru. It's a > cruel world.... > Could you post exact numbers regarding relative margins? Especially on the Rotax 914 -- not MSRP, but how much must they have to accept or they're not selling very many. I don't know enough about the 3300 to oppose it for any reason. Just tryin' to urge conclusions be taken a couple steps back to actual data, should this help a builder choose. Obviously if in buying a Rotax, much of our cost is reseller profit, the 3300 may have more intrinsic value. That's why big SUV's are relatively bad buys. Fred F.


    Message 6


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    Time: 02:42:27 PM PST US
    From: "Bryan Allsop" <bryan@blackballclub.com>
    Subject: Re: I.O.M. Festival of Aviation
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bryan Allsop" <bryan@blackballclub.com> Me too. Twas good last year. Anyone fancy a ride with me? Bryan ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Mills" <combined.merchants@virgin.net> Subject: Re: Europa-List: I.O.M. Festival of Aviation > --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills" > <combined.merchants@virgin.net> > > Hi Alan, > Paul Sweeting and I are planning on Sunday. Tell Kate to clear the skys > for > about 10.30 local. > Best wishes, > William > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alan Burrows" <alan@kestrel-insurance.com> > To: <europa-list@matronics.com> > Subject: Europa-List: I.O.M. Festival of Aviation > > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows" >> <alan@kestrel-insurance.com> >> >> Hello All >> >> I just got the weather forecast for this weekend from met and they tell >> me it should be nice both Saturday and Sunday (now that's the kiss of >> death). Anyway in an effort to tempt fate I thought I would organise one >> of those great British rain making ceremonies known as "the barbeque" >> for Sunday. So please let me know if you can make it over either for one >> or both days. >> It's a great festival honestly. >> >> Cheers >> >> Alan >> PS don't forget WE have control over the radio so all Europa's have >> priority over the RAF and all other aircraft :-) >> >> >> > > >


    Message 7


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    Time: 03:49:02 PM PST US
    From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: engines and props...Now without prejudice...
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> Hi! Andy You may relax.....I'm not rising to the bait ....not coming out to play today! However I must make two or three statements:- a) If you are aware of "conclusions" to getting a uniform and overall engine temperature control "that reflect the reality of present day situations" it's time they were spelt out in the manual in specific detail. b) If the MD insists on speculating my loss over the Alps with a broken crank shaft there are lots of communications respected and lodged world wide about my "early day struggles" right up to present for reference to the inquest. c) If he hasn't even the courtesy to speak and tell me it to my face when he had the chance he should at least get his arse into gear and send me the replacement header pipes he owes me. d) You Guys in the USA do a great job supporting your product, you have to. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300 -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andy Silvester Subject: RE: Europa-List: engines and props --> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester" <andy@suncoastjabiru.com> Hi Graham, I'm not disagreeing with you regarding the physics and theory (!) but thanks for the info - interesting. Here on the "Rotax/Europa" (hehe) list I fully expect to be challenged regarding the capabilities of the Jabiru engine, particularly in reference to its track-record in UK-based Europas. However, much has happened over the last 4 or 5 years in terms of the engine's development but (more importantly) the improved knowledge and experience of installation methods - including cooling performance. Of course, it's easy to look back and remember those who struggled in the early days (steady, now, Bob!) and draw conclusions which perhaps don't reflect the reality of the present situation. My focus with the Europa/Jabiru 3300 installation is clearly in USA where the engine is gaining very quickly in popularity in a wide range of aircraft. I feel fortunate to have sampled the markets and Customers on both sides of the pond (I moved here from UK to sell these things over 4 years ago) and it's true that the massive installed-base of the ubiquitous Lycoming / Continental makes it easier for us to promote and sell a direct - drive air-cooled engine with the Jabiru's size, weight, TBO and performance (It's nice and shiny too). The Rotax is a great engine and you won't hear me rubbishing it. Heck, if Jabiru can sell HALF the number that Rotax has to date we'll be doing very well (here's hoping). I should leave it to Jabiru owners here on the list to explain their reasons for purchase but I'll bet the list will include "simpler", "cheaper and easier to maintain", "better sounding", "nicer looking", etc. It's great that people are free to choose from a range of suitable engines. I had to laugh at Oshkosh last week where I heard a guy who was peering into our Jabiru engine installation (top cowling off) and saying that 'by comparison the Rotax is like looking into a nuclear power plant.....'). Yes, of course there were probably a different set of people on Rotax's booth discussing the finer points of propeller efficiency or engine thermodynamics but hey, that's fine with me, and people make their choices on a wide range of requirements. Everyone knows that Ford trucks have better air conditioners than GM, but GM still sells lots of trucks..... In short, I think there's room for all of us here. Cheers, Andy Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. www.suncoastjabiru.com


    Message 8


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    Time: 03:53:37 PM PST US
    From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: I.O.M. Festival of Aviation
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk> Hi! Bryan Find myself surprised that you can leave the clubs or will they be with you? I may be there to check you out! At least I have all the damn paperwork in place! Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300 -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Allsop Subject: Re: Europa-List: I.O.M. Festival of Aviation --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bryan Allsop" <bryan@blackballclub.com> Me too. Twas good last year. Anyone fancy a ride with me? Bryan


    Message 9


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    Time: 04:51:46 PM PST US
    From: "Jerry Rehn" <rehn@rockisland.com>
    Subject: engine roughness update
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jerry Rehn" <rehn@rockisland.com> Cliff, I ordered new rubber carb sockets and replaced both sides. My suspicion was the port side leak of fuel between intake manifold and carb, remember the green gas stain ? There is a rubber o-ring in there to provide a seal. Anyway the problem is fixed and the leak is gone. I think I could have fixed it by tighting up the carb socket to manifold bolts as the old carb sockets did not show signs of any cracking . the new carb sockets are of a new design and seem much better. Saturday is Orcas fly in at Eastsound airport I am going over in the morning for little while. You should go. Regards Jerry 914 mono


    Message 10


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    Time: 05:52:38 PM PST US
    From: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: engines
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net> > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester": > > Hi Fred, > > If you sold Rotax engines at (for example) a net > margin of 16% where you could only get (say) 7%-8% > for a Jabiru, would it affect your promotion of the Jabiru? Andy, why of course! I think your point valid, though, where like there's a Europa kit dealer who offers a choice of engines. We don't have that here in the U.S., so it's a builder choice from disparate resellers. But if say that dealer's price to us were roughly the same, which is the better choice? Oooh...wait...was that the original question? :-) Maybe there is some food for thought here. An 8% profit differential is not a lot of money, against the profit in selling kits. And even that margin means squat unless you have sufficient unit sales volume. I'm thinking also of Bob Berube of erstwhile Europa here who I judged to be a really honest guy (not that you aren't either!). So he says to me, to be perfectly frank, I can make more money selling you a Rotax, but I'm confident the 3300 which I can also sell you will make your airplane go significantly faster. If his confidence (he really should know) is borne out by subsequent word of mouth, he sells more kits of really pleasingly fast airplanes. No? Despite Europa in UK's straight-laced protestations that the Europa is a Rotax airplane. :-) For an irrelevant opinion of the 3300, well yes a 6-cyl should be noticeably smoother. But especially a 914 turns a lot slower prop, and that translates to aural effect in the cockpit, my strong personal preference. The 3300 looks like an actual aircraft engine, and a 6-cyl has sex appeal. I won't have to explain to "lookie-lous" how the apparent technical, Rube Goldberg contraption of a Rotax is an actual aircraft engine. But implantations of same in modern autos border on the miraculous, as in the unbelievable quiet and smoothness of my new Toyota Solara for a mere $25K. None of this really matters, and I don't mean to confront. Nobody here plonks down the money and time commitment, and when it comes to an engine choice it's like the choice of a $$ big-screen TV, LCD or plasma. I recently paid for much more for LCD and am really glad I did on pure technical grounds as implemented by Sony, which does translate to discernable picture quality. It may not even be meaningfully true that a bad choice can even kill you. Or how important is another 10 knots on a basically fast airplane should it be provable in advance? It's just that this list can be a discerning crowd at this stage of the game, though well it should be, and our desired airplane is not anybody else's airplane. Reg, Fred F.


    Message 11


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    Time: 08:44:25 PM PST US
    From: "Cliff Shaw" <flyinggpa@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: engine roughness update
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" <flyinggpa@comcast.net> Jerry At the Pilots meeting tonight, they said there was a fly-in at Diamond Point tomorrow. There too?? Too many paces to go ! Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Rehn To: Cliff Shaw Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 4:50 PM Subject: Europa-List: engine roughness update --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jerry Rehn" <rehn@rockisland.com> Cliff, I ordered new rubber carb sockets and replaced both sides. My suspicion was the port side leak of fuel between intake manifold and carb, remember the green gas stain ? There is a rubber o-ring in there to provide a seal. Anyway the problem is fixed and the leak is gone. I think I could have fixed it by tighting up the carb socket to manifold bolts as the old carb sockets did not show signs of any cracking . the new carb sockets are of a new design and seem much better. Saturday is Orcas fly in at Eastsound airport I am going over in the morning for little while. You should go. Regards Jerry 914 mono


    Message 12


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    Time: 09:06:13 PM PST US
    From: "Cliff Shaw" <flyinggpa@comcast.net>
    Subject: Look at "Europa 04" web page
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" <flyinggpa@comcast.net> All I just spotted the NEWS page on "Europa 04" web page for August http://www.europa-aircraft.co.uk/ see the note about a container shipping to the USA and "glider wings". Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE




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