---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/29/05: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:39 AM - Re: Wednesday DOTH (Richard Iddon) 2. 02:25 AM - Fuel smell 912S XS front fire wall (ctsmallwood) 3. 03:08 AM - Re: Fuel smell 912S XS front fire wall (Tim Ward) 4. 03:08 AM - Re: Fuel smell 912S XS front fire wall (willie harrison) 5. 04:49 AM - Re: Wednesday DOTH (David Joyce) 6. 04:59 AM - Re: Rotax 914 question? (Jim Brown) 7. 12:22 PM - Re: Wednesday/Friday DOTH (Bryan Allsop) 8. 12:46 PM - Re: Wednesday DOTH (Duncan McFadyean) 9. 03:39 PM - Re: Wednesday DOTH (Richard Iddon) 10. 04:08 PM - Re: Rotax 914 question? (Duncan McFadyean) 11. 04:09 PM - Re: Wednesday DOTH (Duncan McFadyean) 12. 04:53 PM - Re: Gas Struts (SPurpura@aol.com) 13. 06:36 PM - Re: Rotax 914 question? (Thomas Scherer) 14. 09:35 PM - Re: Rotax 914 question? (Jim Thursby) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:39:50 AM PST US From: "Richard Iddon" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Wednesday DOTH --> Europa-List message posted by: "Richard Iddon" Yes Brian, where do you suggest? Richard Iddon G-RIXS Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Allsop Subject: Europa-List: Wednesday DOTH --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bryan Allsop" Is anyone up for a Doth this week? Bryan ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:25:52 AM PST US From: "ctsmallwood" Subject: Europa-List: Fuel smell 912S XS front fire wall --> Europa-List message posted by: "ctsmallwood" Hi All Occasional slight SMELL of fuel. ALL connections fully checked. On both sides of fire wall(with developer).Fire Wall sealed prior to engine fit, and again after engine/ flights.All Ally fittings aft. firewall Only place I believe it may be originating from is the Air Box. 2 small holes under each connection to the Carbs(in Airbox). and entering cockpit thro throttle and brake slots via tunnel Any help greatly appreciated Regards Colin Smallwood ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:08:47 AM PST US From: "Tim Ward" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel smell 912S XS front fire wall --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tim Ward" Colin, I have had the same problem. I believe it is the fuel hoses we got from Europa that permeates the smell.(By the time I used them they were already 6 years old) I replaced all my 'inside fuselage' hoses with better quality fuel injection hoses and that helped a lot. I now have a slight smell which I believe are the hoses from the electric fuel pump forward which I didn't replace but shall do shortly. Have a smell of the hoses in the engine compartment. These were the ones with steel braiding from the electric fuel pump forward to be replaced! Hope it is of help. Cheers, Tim Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street, Fendalton, Christchurch, 8005 New Zealand. Ph +64 3 3515166 Mobile 021 0640221 ward.t@xtra.co.nz ----- Original Message ----- From: "ctsmallwood" Subject: Europa-List: Fuel smell 912S XS front fire wall > --> Europa-List message posted by: "ctsmallwood" > > Hi All > Occasional slight SMELL of fuel. ALL connections fully checked. > On both sides of fire wall(with developer).Fire Wall sealed prior to > engine fit, > and again after engine/ flights.All Ally fittings aft. firewall > Only place I believe it may be originating from is the Air Box. > 2 small holes under each connection to the Carbs(in Airbox). > and entering cockpit thro throttle and brake slots via tunnel > Any help greatly appreciated > Regards > Colin Smallwood > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:08:47 AM PST US From: "willie harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel smell 912S XS front fire wall --> Europa-List message posted by: "willie harrison" Might be worth checking if fuel is slopping about in the tank and splashing up into the filler pipe or vent pipes and then perhaps into the cockpit via a poor joint. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:49:22 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wednesday DOTH --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" Bryan, I am up for a DOTH on Friday (Weds is golf!), and could deliver your Tour de France wine and Mark B's also if we can arrange a suitable destination. Regards, David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Allsop" Subject: Europa-List: Wednesday DOTH > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bryan Allsop" > > Is anyone up for a Doth this week? > > Bryan > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > How to respond to a major incident - essential training for all UK doctors > http://www.doctors.net.uk/bioterrorism > _______________________________________________________________________ > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:59:13 AM PST US From: Jim Brown Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 914 question? --> Europa-List message posted by: Jim Brown Hi Jim; I wonder if he will post having a bad miss in the engine when the plugs foul during "economy cruise"???? Jim Brown Jim Thursby wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Thursby" > > I won't argue with you. You run yours at "economy cruise" rpm's and see > what happens. I never did and never will. > > Jim T > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gilles Thesee > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 914 question? > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee > --> > > Hi Jim, > > Understand your speed point, though running at 80% instead of 75% gives you > only a 2% speed gain. That's hardly an extra 2 knots. > Now, if speed is the main goal and longevity not a problem, why reduce boost > in descent ? As for the carbon issue, no Rotax 9xx I know of have suffered > of significant deposits. > Now saving fuel is indeed an honourable goal ;-) > > Regards, > > Gilles Thesee > Grenoble, France > > >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Thursby" > >--> > > > >Speed. And the 912/914 series longevity is based on 5,000 plus cruise > >rpm's It does NOTHING but save a little fuel running them lower. And > >carbon them up quicker. > > > > > > > > >--> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee > >--> > > > > > >Those numbers correspond to rather high settings. While the engine may > >run at 100 % continuous, what is the point for a cruise above 75 % ? > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:22:14 PM PST US From: "Bryan Allsop" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wednesday/Friday DOTH --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bryan Allsop" Hi David, I totally understand your priorities in life. Golf comes first eh? Just glad you didn't suggest Thursday. I have discussed the problem with Richard, and he is up for doing one on Wednesday, and one on Friday. Seems like a good idea. The outcome is that we have elected to do Panshanger (pilot freebie) on Wednesday, and Caernarfon on Friday. Caernarfon is not a freebie, but it is a nice place, and the butties are excellent. Hope that suits all. Cheers. Bryan > Bryan, I am up for a DOTH on Friday (Weds is golf!), and could deliver > your > Tour de France wine and Mark B's also if we can arrange a suitable > destination. Regards, David ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:46:01 PM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wednesday DOTH --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" St Omer. Saturday! http://acsto.free.fr/ Duncan McF. do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Iddon" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Wednesday DOTH > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Richard Iddon" > > Yes Brian, where do you suggest? > > Richard Iddon G-RIXS > > Do not archive > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan > Allsop > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Wednesday DOTH > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bryan Allsop" > > > Is anyone up for a Doth this week? > > Bryan > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:39:28 PM PST US From: "Richard Iddon" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Wednesday DOTH --> Europa-List message posted by: "Richard Iddon" Duncan, Can one clear customs at St Omer? Richard Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Duncan McFadyean Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wednesday DOTH --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" St Omer. Saturday! http://acsto.free.fr/ Duncan McF. do not archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:08:25 PM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 914 question? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" OK, I'll bite! I cruise at about 4,000rpm. And have done for over 200 hours of use, excepting climb-out at 4,800 and the odd spurt to see how fast it will go. The plugs are squeaky-clean. The piston crowns are quite clean. There is no loss of compression or performance that suggests that the piston rings are coked. The engine uses virtually no oil between changes and the oil discolouration is mid brown colour at 100 hours. Our local Rotax dealer commented flippantly that at these speeds the engine would 'last forever'! Now for the science bit: Engine wear will be a function of loading (all other things being equal (for example adequate thermal control, proper lubrication and sliding velocities less than 20m/s)). The more load the more wear. Gas loads reach a maximum at 4800 rpm. Mechanical loads increase with the square of the crank rotational speed. So, these inertial loads will be 56% greater at 5,000 rpm than at 4,000 rpm. However, there is a point where gas loads will be at an optimum and will balance some of the inertial loads. That speed is said to be at around 3300 rpm on a Lycoming. I don't know where it is on a Rotax; someone care to work out the maths using a function of BMEP and piston/rod inertias? Or let me know what a Rotax piston and rod weighs, plus the length of a rod between centres, and I'll do it. Duncan Mcf. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Brown" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 914 question? > --> Europa-List message posted by: Jim Brown > > Hi Jim; > > I wonder if he will post having a bad miss in the engine when the plugs > foul > during "economy cruise"???? > > Jim Brown > > Jim Thursby wrote: > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Thursby" >> >> >> I won't argue with you. You run yours at "economy cruise" rpm's and see >> what happens. I never did and never will. >> >> Jim T >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gilles >> Thesee >> To: europa-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 914 question? >> >> --> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee >> --> >> >> Hi Jim, >> >> Understand your speed point, though running at 80% instead of 75% gives >> you >> only a 2% speed gain. That's hardly an extra 2 knots. >> Now, if speed is the main goal and longevity not a problem, why reduce >> boost >> in descent ? As for the carbon issue, no Rotax 9xx I know of have >> suffered >> of significant deposits. >> Now saving fuel is indeed an honourable goal ;-) >> >> Regards, >> >> Gilles Thesee >> Grenoble, France >> >> >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Thursby" >> >--> >> > >> >Speed. And the 912/914 series longevity is based on 5,000 plus cruise >> >rpm's It does NOTHING but save a little fuel running them lower. And >> >carbon them up quicker. >> > >> > >> > >> >> >--> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee >> >--> >> > >> > >> >Those numbers correspond to rather high settings. While the engine may >> >run at 100 % continuous, what is the point for a cruise above 75 % ? >> > >> > >> > >> > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:09:52 PM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wednesday DOTH --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" My understanding is that you can for this event. Will recheck the information provided. Rgds., Duncan. do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Iddon" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Wednesday DOTH > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Richard Iddon" > > Duncan, > > Can one clear customs at St Omer? > > Richard > > Do not archive > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Duncan > McFadyean > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wednesday DOTH > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" > > > St Omer. > Saturday! > http://acsto.free.fr/ > > Duncan McF. > do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:53:27 PM PST US From: SPurpura@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Gas Struts --> Europa-List message posted by: SPurpura@aol.com TRY MCMASTERCARR.COM SAM N77EU ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:36:51 PM PST US From: "Thomas Scherer" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 914 question? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Thomas Scherer" My engine ( a plain old 912) has 720 hrs on it now and at last check showed virtually no sign of use. I also run it at 4ooo rpm for economy cruise. I see less than 10 liters per hour of fuel flow (in cold air). I could not think of any reason why the engine would wear prematurely if run at such speeds (or does idle kill engines ?). Every millimeter the throttle can be pulled back will improve fuel flow. Only a tick more and she uses 14 liters with only a 2 knot gain in speed. I am looking forward to building those glider wings and partially wet them. With onboard fuel (and only a slight disregard of gross weight) the endurance could be pushed to over 30 hours. Where would you rather be than in the air ? happy skies, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 914 question? > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" > > > OK, I'll bite! > I cruise at about 4,000rpm. And have done for over 200 hours of use, > excepting climb-out at 4,800 and the odd spurt to see how fast it will go. > The plugs are squeaky-clean. The piston crowns are quite clean. There is no > loss of compression or performance that suggests that the piston rings are > coked. The engine uses virtually no oil between changes and the oil > discolouration is mid brown colour at 100 hours. > Our local Rotax dealer commented flippantly that at these speeds the engine > would 'last forever'! > > Now for the science bit: Engine wear will be a function of loading (all > other things being equal (for example adequate thermal control, proper > lubrication and sliding velocities less than 20m/s)). The more load the more > wear. Gas loads reach a maximum at 4800 rpm. Mechanical loads increase with > the square of the crank rotational speed. So, these inertial loads will be > 56% greater at 5,000 rpm than at 4,000 rpm. > > However, there is a point where gas loads will be at an optimum and will > balance some of the inertial loads. That speed is said to be at around 3300 > rpm on a Lycoming. I don't know where it is on a Rotax; someone care to work > out the maths using a function of BMEP and piston/rod inertias? Or let me > know what a Rotax piston and rod weighs, plus the length of a rod between > centres, and I'll do it. > > > Duncan Mcf. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Brown" > To: > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 914 question? > > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Jim Brown > > > > Hi Jim; > > > > I wonder if he will post having a bad miss in the engine when the plugs foul > > during "economy cruise"???? > > > > Jim Brown > > > > Jim Thursby wrote: > > > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Thursby" > >> > >> I won't argue with you. You run yours at "economy cruise" rpm's and see > >> what happens. I never did and never will. > >> > >> Jim T > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > >> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gilles Thesee > >> To: europa-list@matronics.com > >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 914 question? > >> > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee > >> --> > >> > >> Hi Jim, > >> > >> Understand your speed point, though running at 80% instead of 75% gives you > >> only a 2% speed gain. That's hardly an extra 2 knots. > >> Now, if speed is the main goal and longevity not a problem, why reduce boost > >> in descent ? As for the carbon issue, no Rotax 9xx I know of have suffered > >> of significant deposits. > >> Now saving fuel is indeed an honourable goal ;-) > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Gilles Thesee > >> Grenoble, France > >> > >> >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Thursby" > >> >--> > >> > > >> >Speed. And the 912/914 series longevity is based on 5,000 plus cruise > >> >rpm's It does NOTHING but save a little fuel running them lower. And > >> >carbon them up quicker. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> >--> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee > >> >--> > >> > > >> > > >> >Those numbers correspond to rather high settings. While the engine may > >> >run at 100 % continuous, what is the point for a cruise above 75 % ? > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:37 PM PST US From: "Jim Thursby" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Rotax 914 question? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Thursby" Don't know about your source but the person I trusted (as did many others including Rotax) to keep me informed about the Rotax engines always stated "the 912/914 series engine is happiest and will get the best longevity ABOVE 5,000 RPM in the cruise". He is now gone as of July of this year but his experience was trusted enough that Kodiak research and Rotax called him to assist in product development. Glen had forgotten more about Rotax engines than most of us could ever learn. He never steered me or anyone I know wrong, and I trusted his opinions and ideas about these engines with my life on more than one occasion. Oh, and you WILL foul plugs on 100 LL and reduced power settings eventually. Or put up with the auto gas smell. Or have to add TCP all the time. When you have 1,000 plus hours on a 912/914 come back and let us know how you're doing. Keep an eye on the gearbox too. Jim T. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Duncan McFadyean Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 914 question? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" --> OK, I'll bite! I cruise at about 4,000rpm. And have done for over 200 hours of use, excepting climb-out at 4,800 and the odd spurt to see how fast it will go. The plugs are squeaky-clean. The piston crowns are quite clean. There is no loss of compression or performance that suggests that the piston rings are coked. The engine uses virtually no oil between changes and the oil discolouration is mid brown colour at 100 hours. Our local Rotax dealer commented flippantly that at these speeds the engine would 'last forever'!