---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 09/18/05: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:15 AM - Re: ENGINES! (BEBERRY@aol.com) 2. 01:42 AM - Re: Question about wing tie-downs (Mod 69) (josok) 3. 02:42 AM - VFR Airspace upper limits, oxygen, Was Re: ENGINES!; (josok) 4. 06:16 AM - Re: ENGINES! (Paul McAllister) 5. 07:59 AM - Re: ENGINES! (Kevin And Ann Klinefelter) 6. 08:50 AM - Re: ENGINES! (Fred Klein) 7. 09:25 AM - re 912s vs 914 TBO (irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu) 8. 09:44 AM - Re: ENGINES! (Andy Silvester) 9. 10:01 AM - Re: ENGINES! (Jerry Rehn) 10. 10:01 AM - Re: ENGINES! (Duncan McFadyean) 11. 10:06 AM - Re: ENGINES! (Andy Silvester) 12. 10:22 AM - 914 Filter & Oshkosh (Duncan McFadyean) 13. 11:29 AM - Re: re 912s vs 914 TBO (BEBERRY@AOL.COM) 14. 11:37 AM - Re: Re: Landing Light (Duncan McFadyean) 15. 11:48 AM - Re: ENGINES! (Paul McAllister) 16. 12:09 PM - Re: ENGINES! (jimpuglise@comcast.net) 17. 12:21 PM - Re: Re: Landing Light (Cliff Shaw) 18. 12:30 PM - Re: ENGINES! (Cliff Shaw) 19. 01:06 PM - Rotax engines 912s vs 914 (Ronald J. Parigoris) 20. 01:33 PM - Newbies on the List (irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu) 21. 03:28 PM - Re: ENGINES! (Steve Hagar) 22. 03:41 PM - 914 Stuck Wastegate (Garry) 23. 05:17 PM - Re: 914 Stuck Wastegate (Jerry Rehn) 24. 10:35 PM - Re: 914 Stuck Wastegate (Gert Dalgaard) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:15:07 AM PST US From: BEBERRY@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: ENGINES! --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com I am interested in the various comments about the 914 and I appreciate the advantage of flying up there in the stratosphere. Here in the u.k. and in Europe generally it is seldom necessary to fligh so high and you would probably be unable (legally) to do so because of Airway conflict. There ain't no Rocky Mountains over here! I would be interested to know how (if you do) cope with the oxygen (lackof ) at the sort of levels you mention, e.g. 13,500 ft? Patrick ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:42:20 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: RE: Question about wing tie-downs (Mod 69) From: "josok" 1.41 REPLY_TO_EMPTY Reply-To: is empty --> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" Nothing special, i just use the plastic cover that was on top of the metal tuna-fish can lid. From your question i understand that you don't have that.? Send me your address (off-list) and I'll mail you the cover of my spare can. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:42:35 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: VFR Airspace upper limits, oxygen, Was RE: ENGINES!; From: "josok" 1.41 REPLY_TO_EMPTY Reply-To: is empty --> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" Here in Finland (part of Europe) It's class G up to FL95, above that class C until FL285. VFR traffic will be cleared to that class C. My (unconfirmed) understanding is that Sweden and Norway have similar rules. Can we have some information from other countries please? And yes, it would be nice to know what solutions people have found for oxygen. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:16:49 AM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Re: Europa-List: ENGINES! --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Steve, Congratulations on your first engine start, it won't be long now. As far as the 914 goes, you don't know what a game changer you have got until you own one. I have just returned from a 1200 nm trip out to the Canadian Rockies and it just gave me a great "comfort margin" Paul do not archive. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:59:41 AM PST US From: Kevin And Ann Klinefelter Subject: Re: Europa-List: ENGINES! --> Europa-List message posted by: Kevin And Ann Klinefelter Here in the US you can fly VFR to 18,000 feet. Supplemental oxygen is required if you are above 12,500 for 30 minutes, and above 14,000 period. I have allot of time in gliders (hang gliders, sailplanes, and paragliders) in the Owens Valley. 14,000+ ft mountains on both sides of the valley and great soaring conditions. Cloudbase in the summer can be over 20,000. Back in the 1980's I used to soar hang gliders as high as the conditions allowed without O2. Been to over 20,000. Then we got hold of lightweight, simple O2 rigs. High altitude flying got to be much more enjoyable. Now I prefer to turn on the O2 at 12,000. A small aluminum cylinder with a tiny regulator and flow meter can be had for $500. An Oxymiser cannula delivers the O2 quite efficiently, 2 liters per min at 18,000 is sufficient. Refill your own cylinders with Welders O2 economically. Caution using medical O2 as they may add moisture which could freeze up your regulator. Kevin Want to get really High? In 1952 Larry Edgar and Harold Klieforth towed up out of Bishop airport and set a sailplane altitude record of 44,255 feet. That two place glider record remains unbroken. In 1986 Robert Harris soared solo in the Sierra Wave to 49,009 BEBERRY@aol.com wrote: >--> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com > > > >I am interested in the various comments about the 914 and I appreciate the >advantage of flying up there in the stratosphere. Here in the u.k. and in >Europe generally it is seldom necessary to fligh so high and you would probably >be unable (legally) to do so because of Airway conflict. There ain't no >Rocky Mountains over here! > >I would be interested to know how (if you do) cope with the oxygen (lackof ) >at the sort of levels you mention, e.g. 13,500 ft? > >Patrick > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:50:35 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: ENGINES! From: Fred Klein --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein Steve, Paul, and Kevin, Thanks for the thoughtful and informative postings re: the 914 and high altitude possibilities...you're making a believer out of a Rotax-skeptic. Fred DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:25:54 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: re 912s vs 914 TBO From: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu 09/18/2005 12:25:11 PM, Serialize complete at 09/18/2005 12:25:11 PM --> Europa-List message posted by: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu Patrick engages in complete and uninformed speculation: The question that has not been answered is the reliability of the 912S against the 914. Remember that the 914 is a turbo charged 912 whilst the 912 S is a 912 with a much enhanced compession ratio, leading, all things being equal to much greater stress on all engine components. The 914 has not been in operation long enough to give proper comparisons but I suspect that the 914, properly maintained and operated with proper care will prove the much longer lasting engine. The actual data is completely the opposite. Just pay attention to any of the long discussion on this group for years now on reliability problems with the turbo and overheating and many other problems. Meanwhile the TBO on the 912S has been increased. While cheapskates look to buy the 3rd party piston set to convert a 912 into a 912S, the factory mods include many engineering change to support as you say "a much enhanced compression ratio" of 20%. Patrick, if you have a question ask it. If you are clueless, don't decrease the SNR in this group Ira N224XS 912S 160hrs ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:44:27 AM PST US From: "Andy Silvester" Subject: RE: Europa-List: ENGINES! --> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester" Thanks Garry and other who have commented. For my part, I'm happy to 'lurk' here and respond both to questions about Jabiru engines or the installation in general, and very occasionally to jump-in and try to address a statement or claim about our products which is just-plain-wrong. If listers have questions I'm here to help. I'll resist spamming the list with unsolicited info; I get enough of that myself and I know how much of a turn-off it is. Andy Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. www.suncoastjabiru.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Garry Subject: Re: Europa-List: ENGINES! --> Europa-List message posted by: "Garry" I totally disagree with Sam N77EU. As an owner and builder I am constantly looking for information on products and accessories related to the Europa. I encourage vendors of Europa products to contribute to this forum, and thus keep us informed on what's available and how it performs. In particular, Andy Sylvester of Jabiru has done a marvelous job of educating us all on the merits, performance, costs, etc. of the Jabiru engine. Thanks Andy! For those of you who want to keep your heads buried in the sand, there is something on your keyboard called a delete key. Garry Stout ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Europa-List: ENGINES! > --> Europa-List message posted by: SPurpura@aol.com > > THIS FORUM IS MEANT FOR EUROPA BUILDERS & OWNERS. > IF YOU ARE SELLING AN ENGINE YOU SHUOULD PAY MATRONICS > FOR YOUR ADVERTIZING OR PLACE AN ADD > IN THE MAGAZINES AND LEAVE US TO OUR AIRCRAFT. > SAM N77EU > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:01:00 AM PST US From: "Jerry Rehn" Subject: Re: Europa-List: ENGINES! --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jerry Rehn" As some of you know, Cliff and I flew to OSH and back in our own planes. Cliff has the tri with 912S and mine a mono 914. I must say Cliffs plane is a real performer and at low altitudes there was not a great difference. However at altitudes the differences became clear. We cruised together for some 25hrs+ so it was a good comparison at many diff. conditions and variables. Above 4 to 5,000 feet the differences grew. At 10,000 they were more obvious. At 10+ Cliff was at 100% power and I was close to 75% to stay together. The fuel consumption for mine was also much less. The turbo really comes into play at altitude.Considering Cliff was "slightly" over gross (Cliff can only tell us) his plane had remarkable climb for non turbo and high density alt. Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Re: Europa-List: ENGINES! > . > > As far as the 914 goes, you don't know what a game changer you have got > until you own one. I> > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:26 AM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: ENGINES! --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" .<<...> BMW.....torsional vibration proved to be a too difficult > problem to overcome after exhaustive development work....>> Nigel, Please note that when running the BMW did NOT suffer from torsional vibration problems. Rather, it had the same starting difficulty that the 912S sometimes has (only more extreme) which, by consensus of this forum, is not torsional vibration (although I don't agree with that). Rgds., Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "nigel charles" Subject: RE: Europa-List: ENGINES! > --> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" > > >>Thats easy! >>> Get the 140 hp Dual Port Fuel Injected EA81 with redundant injection >>>here:< > > Very easy if you want to substitute baggage capability for engine > weight. The extra weight also means the battery has to be in the tail to > keep the C of G within limits. This increases the pitch inertia which > degrades the handling characteristics slightly. > > For those who are new to the forum and are trying to make an engine > choice the following might be a useful summary: > > Subaru - too heavy, NSI (the company producing the engine/gearbox > package) have a poor customer relations record. > > BMW - nice engine but torsional vibration proved to be a too difficult > problem to overcome after exhaustive development work. > > Mid West Rotary - very smooth and light but excessive fuel consumption > and very difficult to set up to run smoothly at all rpm's. > > Wilksch Diesel - lovely engine with many original design patents. It is > very fuel efficient and cheap to run due to much cheaper jet fuel. This > is an engine to watch in the future for the replacement of > Lyco/Continentals but it is just too heavy for the Europa. The radiator > adds significantly to the frontal area which may increase drag. > > Lyco/Continental - too heavy and high fuel consumption. > > Jabiru - the only workable alternative to the Rotax for the Europa. True > it is simpler. If you want a simple aircraft you would probably not have > chosen the Europa in the first place. Although it has a higher power > output it is at 3300rpm which is too high for the prop to use > efficiently so the performance advantage is negated. Being aircooled the > fuel efficiency is slightly down on the Rotax. Some cooling issues were > apparent from the cowling mods seen on early aircraft. It definitely has > a price advantage which is the one area which lets the Rotax down. If I > was cost limited I would sooner spend it on the engine rather than > expensive avionics. > > Rotax - still the most suitable engine for the aircraft if rather > expensive. As Ivan Shaw said in the early days of the Europa 'there is > more work in developing the engine for the airframe than designing the > airframe in the first place'. The P51 argument would be relevant if > there was an engine that was significantly more suited to the airframe > but so far this is not the case. > > Choice of versions of the Rotax > > 912 - very fuel efficient but a little underpowered for the Europa > especially at max weight with high density altitudes. Using a VP prop > helps to extract maximum power at take-off without affecting cruise > performance. > > 912S - the extra 20hp make all the difference. Probably the first choice > for most Rotax users. Make sure the higher power starter is installed to > help prevent kickbacks on start due to the higher compression ratio. > > 914 Turbo - yet more performance but at a price and increased > complexity. Probably the best engine for those who regularly operate at > high density altitudes. However the 912S with a VP prop will give > adequate performance up to density altitudes of at least 10,000ft and > will comfortably exceed Vno at low altitudes. > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:49 AM PST US From: "Andy Silvester" Subject: RE: Europa-List: ENGINES! --> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester" Kevin, Thanks for the comments. Yes, the Jabiru 3300 produces it's max power at 3300 rpm. It was someone else (not me) who said that "3300 rpm is too fast for a propeller". We know of Sonex, Pulsar and KR-2 owners who regularly run 58" props at 3200 cruise and they report good performance. Inevitably, the best cruise speed on a Europa with the right 'cruise' prop (say a Sensenich 58/62) would be at over 3000 rpm. However, you might be at 6 gph at that speed. Other successful Europa installs have longer props ( up to 64" dia) and they benefit from better climb and more economical cruise. Horses for Courses, I guess, and I often find that to achieve that "extra 5-10 knots" has a disproportionate cost in either fuel or the price tag of the installation. Andy Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. www.suncoastjabiru.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin And Ann Klinefelter Subject: Re: Europa-List: ENGINES! --> Europa-List message posted by: Kevin And Ann Klinefelter I agree. Its good to hear the pros and cons of the engine choices, even though I already bought a 914 and am completing the install now. My home airport is at 4120 feet and summer temps reach 110 F. Lets see, thats uh, pretty high desity altitude. And I look forward to being able to cruise up to 18000 and take advantage of higher true airspeeds. Plus I just like cruising way up there. With the Jabiru 3300 producing 127 hp at 3300 rpm (correct?) and 3300 rpm being too fast for a given prop (correct?), what is the max rpm and HP for a 3300 and best prop combo, on a Europa mono-wheel? Just curious... Kevin N211KA, still workin on it... ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:06 AM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Europa-List: 914 Filter & Oshkosh --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <> You don't need to do that. Rather, the inlet coeff. of the nostrils can be improved by reprofiling the edge of the hole. My oil cooler is mounted behind one of the XS nostrils (with a shroud between the nostril and the cooler). In this situation the oil overcools, so the 3" hole was throttled back with an insert that provides a generously rolled edge and a 2" diameter venturi immediately behind the aperture. Result was absolutely no difference, despite the area of the inlet now being about half. A Mk 2 version was then made with a 1.5" diameter, which did then reduce airflow and allow reasonable oil temps in winter. Duncan Mcf. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Hagar" Subject: *** SPAM *** Europa-List: 914 Filter & Oshkosh > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Steve Hagar" > > While I had my lower cowling off to give it bigger nostrils up front for > better cooling I took note how nice it would be to have a feature inside > to register against the end of the air filter. I haven't started the > motor yet but have noticed that the filter attachment could be > problematic. I have had it loosen up after sitting for months in the > garage. No doubt some sort of creep or flow going on with the material. > Now if the lower cowling had a flat surfaced feature to butt against the > end of the air filter the clamp would only have to suffice for a seal and > not as an attachment device for a cantilever. Has anyone done this yet? > If you have found an elegant way to get the right dimension give me a > heads up. If I don't hear from anyone I'll have to go to my old standby > for figuring it out. I do my best thinnking on this type of issue by > wandering up and down the aisles of Home Depot. Looking at all the stuff > on the shelves and racks eventually sets the lighbulb off > on how to custom fab something. I have made some very passable outrigger / > landing light fairing molds out of adhesive backed foam and electrical > tape gathered on my wanderings. > > The trip out to Oshkosh and back in E. Trombley's Europa reconfirmed that > I made a good decision to go with the Europa and also to go for the 914. > The seating was more comfortable than my car (I'm 6 ft, 200#) my back > gets stiff in the car, I was not stiff after 4 hr legs in the plane. My > seats were modeled after Erich's after he sent me some photos. With the > wing leveler turned on we could have slept most of the way home. Weather > was bad on the way there had to fly real low and had to watch out for > nasty stuff like real tall TV towers rising terrain etc. The engine > hummed like a sewing machine all trip. We probably could have done it in > a day if the weather was good and got a real early start. > > The turbo adds a startling amount of versatility, on the the trip back > home we were at 6500 ft. indicating 120 kts airspeed and 80 kts gps ground > speed. We elevatored up to 14500 ft. looking for more favorable winds > and eventually found a spot where we got about 130 kts groundspeed. Going > over the Rockies was just a short jump. All this on about a 5 gal/hr > burn rate, with a fixed pitch prop and with the outriggers down. > (electrically actuated that fold completely inboard into the wing but > left down because of burned out motor). > > The trip was just what I needed to get kicked in gear to finish N40SH. > Perhaps it will be ready to fly to Sun n Fun in primer? > > Steve Hagar > Mesa, AZ > > > Steve Hagar > hagargs@earthlink.net > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:29:03 AM PST US From: BEBERRY@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Europa-List: re 912s vs 914 TBO --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com re; 914 v. 912S engines. Patrick engages in complete and uninformed speculation: Patrick, if you have a question ask it. If you are clueless, don't decrease the SNR in this group Ira N224XS 912S 160hrs Ira? I thought that the forum existed , amongst other things, to enable people to express opinions, which may or may not be correct. Those who disagree can do so in a reasonable and polite manner. It is certainly not the object of this forum to be abusive or condemnatory. Patrick (914 260 hours) ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:55 AM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Landing Light --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" More detail please! Is the light being used for night time taxiing of for general circuit etc conspicuity? (which is my interest). Opinions on the optimum beam pattern for the latter use would be useful. Duncan Mcf. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Butcher" Subject: Europa-List: Re: Landing Light > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Butcher" > > 0.10 HEAD_ILLEGAL_CHARS Header contains too many raw illegal > characters > > We mounted a XeVision HID light in the cowl on the stbd side. The light > is > rectangular and we mounted in vertically to accomidate the change in > attitude from level to landing configurations (monowheel). Presently in > the > midst of taxi testing so can't report results except to say it really is > bright!! If anyone is interested, we can provide some photos (not great > detail). > > Jim & Heather Butcher > N241BW > XS monowheel 914 taxi testing > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:29 AM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Re: Europa-List: ENGINES! --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Andy, For my part, feel free to contribute to the list any time. Your comments help everyone to become aware of new developments and make informed decisions. Paul do not archive. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Silvester" Subject: RE: Europa-List: ENGINES! > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester" > > > Thanks Garry and other who have commented. For my part, I'm happy to > 'lurk' > here and respond both to questions about Jabiru engines or the > installation ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:09:30 PM PST US From: jimpuglise@comcast.net Subject: Re: Europa-List: ENGINES! --> Europa-List message posted by: jimpuglise@comcast.net I have been following this thread with a great deal of interest. After thinking about it for the last year, I am going with the Jab. For those who have not had the chance to do so, Jos and I visited Flight Crafters last year and were able to look at Jab and Rotax installations right next to each other. It was striking to note the extreme simplicity of the Jab installation when comparing the two. I am an amateur builder, and also not a high-time pilot so simplicity and reliability are very high on my list. My wife also flies and she is interested in the same things. On the down side, we will lose some fuel efficiency and will need to deal with a different set of coolin problems. The combination of the Jab and the currently available electronic instrumentation will give us a very simple and reliable installation. I really can't knock the Rotax. A lot of owners can't be wrong, and I'm sure it is a wonderful engine, but a fluid cooling system and a gearbox are two more t hings that I can't screw up and that can't fail in flight. Jim Puglise, A283, Punta Gorda, FL -------------- Original message -------------- > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" > > Andy, > > For my part, feel free to contribute to the list any time. Your comments > help everyone to become aware of new developments and make informed > decisions. > > Paul > > do not archive. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andy Silvester" > > Subject: RE: Europa-List: ENGINES! > > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester" > > > > > > Thanks Garry and other who have commented. For my part, I'm happy to > > 'lurk' > > here and respond both to questions about Jabiru engines or the > > installation > > > > > > I have been following this thread with a great deal of interest. After thinking about it for the last year, I am going with the Jab. For those who have not had the chance to do so, Jos and I visited Flight Crafters last year and were able to look at Jab and Rotax installations right next to each other. It was striking to note the extreme simplicity of the Jab installation when comparing the two. I am an amateur builder, and also not a high-time pilot so simplicity and reliability are very high on my list. My wife also flies and she is interested in the same things. On the down side, we will lose some fuel efficiency and will need to deal with a different set of coolin problems. The combination of the Jab and the currently available electronic instrumentation will give us a very simple and reliable installation. I really can't knock the Rotax.Alot of owners can't be wrong, and I'm sure it is a wonderful eng ine, but afluid cooling system and a gearbox are two more things that I can't screw up and that can't fail in flight. Jim Puglise, A283, Punta Gorda, FL -------------- Original message -------------- -- Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Andy, For my part, feel free to contribute to the list any time. Your comments help everyone to become aware of new developments and make informed decisions. Paul do not archive. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Silvester" Subject: RE: Europa-List: ENGINES! -- Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester" Thanks Garry and other who have commented. For my part, I'm happy to 'lurk' here and respond both to questions about Jabiru engines or the installation ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:21:27 PM PST US From: "Cliff Shaw" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Landing Light --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" Duncan I built landing/taxi light into the front of my flap outboard hinge fairing. (used to say outrigger fairing) They are halogen 50 watt focused to a very narrow beam. I bought them at an automotive store. For taxi light they work very well. I have used them now and am very happy. Using them for flight awareness (see and be avoided) I am not so sure they are much good. Twice I have had the tower say they can not see me as I used them while approaching 3 miles out. I now use the wingtip strobes to be seen. They work well. (Jerry can even see them.) Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE ----- Original Message ----- From: Duncan McFadyean To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 11:37 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Landing Light --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" More detail please! Is the light being used for night time taxiing of for general circuit etc conspicuity? (which is my interest). Opinions on the optimum beam pattern for the latter use would be useful. Duncan Mcf. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Butcher" To: Subject: Europa-List: Re: Landing Light > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Butcher" > > 0.10 HEAD_ILLEGAL_CHARS Header contains too many raw illegal > characters > > We mounted a XeVision HID light in the cowl on the stbd side. The light > is > rectangular and we mounted in vertically to accomidate the change in > attitude from level to landing configurations (monowheel). Presently in > the > midst of taxi testing so can't report results except to say it really is > bright!! If anyone is interested, we can provide some photos (not great > detail). > > Jim & Heather Butcher > N241BW > XS monowheel 914 taxi testing > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:30:26 PM PST US From: "Cliff Shaw" Subject: Re: Europa-List: ENGINES! --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" Steve I have looked and looked through my papers for the notes I got from Rocky Mountain about the Rotax Tach wiring. My wiring book showed that I wired the Bu/Y to ground and the W/Y to uM #C. I remember that on Bob's installation we had no RPM on engine first start. It seems that all I did was reverse the two tach wires. Hope that helps. Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE ----- Original Message ----- From: Cliff Shaw To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 8:57 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: ENGINES! --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" Steve Congratulations. It sounds like you love it like the rest of us do. Welcome aboard !!! Your Rocky Mountain has a special hook-up for the tach. I will look it up and see what it was I did on Bob's and my planes. Get back to you later. congratulations !!! Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE The engine runs smooth like an electric motor. ------I The neighbors didn't even take notice, ----- ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:06:18 PM PST US From: "Ronald J. Parigoris" Subject: Europa-List: Rotax engines 912s vs 914 --> Europa-List message posted by: "Ronald J. Parigoris" Just overview My Opinions, Pros / Cons 912S vs 914 912S Pros: * Less expensive * Less complicated: no computer, wastegate, turbo, coking of oil * Lighter 912S Cons: * Thus far the exhaust systems I have seen for Europa 912S are far inferior to the new style 914 exhaust. I do not like leaks and cracking very much in my aircraft exhaust. Type 308 stainless the new 914 exhaust is made of allows wrapping exhaust without damaging system * 912S is not only higher compression, but larger displacement, upon start up and shut down 912S shakes more, also kickbacks more prevalent, possible causing Sprague damage even with HD starter. I.E. trying to start in the cold and there is a bit of carb snot in carbs, using 100LL and battery is not putting out what it does in the hot. 914 Pros: * Turbo absorbs energy, thus a bit quieter * High density altitude benefit * Emergency War Power for up to 5 minutes * Altitude compensation works better on Turbo / Bing 64s than with Normal aspiration * You can always run a 914 like a 912, but not vise versa, this will keep temperatures down. * 914 allows for easy modification of mixture by varying float bowl pressure. I know many say this is not needed, but 914s tend to run a bit rich at altitude and leaning is not a bad thing to do. I have 2 EGTs and a O2 sensor with mixture monitor display on my 914 installation. Also have a switch to run a bit richer if needed. Many will say who wants to run a 914 richer? Probably anybody who has flown a 914 with dirty carbs and 1 side is running lean because of it, or any number of places a intake leak occurred. If notice lean mixture, reduce power, run rich land as soon as possible. Run lean, ignore and over temp things at high power setting, you will probably get to where you are going, costly bliss though. 914 Cons: * Need to deal with hotter exhaust components so as not damage things. * Need to understand how turbo works, and more important what to do if there is a failure. If wastegate sticks closed the motor will over boost, besides hurting the motor, you will probably run out of fuel where the fuel pressure regulator can't keep up. Of course this is at 300 feet! reduce throttle and MP RIGHT NOW. If you have other than a momentary switch for the wastegate/computer, if left off chances are the wastegate is in the closed position, this will cause over boost with full throttle. * Lead can cause wastegate to stick, lubing with mouse milk or such is a good idea whenever you can * High temperatures in turbo can cause coking of oil. Synthetic oil best, but need to deal with more frequent changes and lead deposits ( 25 hour changes and clean oil tank screen) if using a lot of 100LL * Need to deal with more complicated fuel system. You need to understand on the 914 if you have less fuel pressure in the float bowl, than in the airbox, you will run out of gas! Duh!! That said airbox pressure is measured in absolute terms, in other words 34 inches at sea level is the same as 34 inches at 18,000 feet. You want approx. 2 to 5 PSI over this. The problem is if you are just measuring fuel pressure, that reading is over ambient pressure. Thus 7 PSI at sea level is less than 7 PSI at 18,000 feet. Best have a differential gauge. With a excel spread sheet and MP and fuel pressure, could perhaps squeak by, but you are not going to be able to follow trends. You can see that you need more fuel PSI at altitude, if you have a slight clogged fuel filter, or slight low fuel pump or restriction it can work fine down low and show up high. Vapor lock more likely up high, best make sure you have adequate return fuel flowing. * Need to keep motor cool at altitude when you are making some BTUs where there are not as many air molecules around for this purpose. Normal aspirated just can't make many BTUs at altitude so this is not as much a problem. Also not only less air molecules, but things boil at a lower temperature when there is a lower outside pressure. Mogas will boil before avgas. * Turbo will stop boosting if you get airbox air too hot. Turbo needs to pressurize more at altitude. I chose the 914. I will attempt to overcool. Installing a cooling air baffle, and can heat up by closing cowl flap. Will drop and direct a good amount of air to oil cooler, but install a Mocal 190 degree oil thermostat to get heat up. Water radiator will get a good amount of airflow, and cowl flap can reduce drag a bit and get temps up. Have Differential fuel pressure gauge, HD starter and intercooler. Closed cowl flap and oil thermostat should help get temps up on in-flight restarts after soaring. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:33:34 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Newbies on the List From: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu 09/18/2005 04:32:11 PM, Serialize complete at 09/18/2005 04:32:11 PM --> Europa-List message posted by: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu Patrick, Very sorry. Nothing Personal. However, look at the point of view of the hundred of other on this list. You asserted an opinion about engines, then said you didn't really know much. Opinions are certainly your privilege, but please don't share them unless you actually have some reason to think others on the list would find them pertinent. On the other hand, reviewing what has already been said in the past years on the list by searching Andrew's archive site or the Matronics site will inform recent joiners with out clutter for everyone else. The list works best when we all keep everyone in mind. Asking a question is never out of bounds here, that's the raison d etre. Ask what is pertinent, don't quote the whole past digest, and please keep the SUBJECT LINE accurate. Ira N224XS Three 1000 mile cross country trips and 160 hours 912S Blue Mountain EFIS/One, Two Axis AP (which I don't bother to use because the plane is too much fun to hand fly ;-) ) ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:30 PM PST US From: "Steve Hagar" Subject: Re: Europa-List: ENGINES! --> Europa-List message posted by: "Steve Hagar" Thanks Cliff: I'll check on it in the morning. Steve Steve Hagar hagargs@earthlink.net > [Original Message] > From: Cliff Shaw > To: > Date: 9/18/2005 12:30:01 PM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: ENGINES! > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" > > Steve > > I have looked and looked through my papers for the notes I got from Rocky Mountain about the Rotax Tach wiring. My wiring book showed that I wired the Bu/Y to ground and the W/Y to uM #C. > > I remember that on Bob's installation we had no RPM on engine first start. It seems that all I did was reverse the two tach wires. > > Hope that helps. > > > Cliff Shaw > 1041 Euclid ave. > Edmonds, WA 98020 > 425 776 5555 > http://www.europaowners.org/WileE > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Cliff Shaw > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 8:57 PM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: ENGINES! > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" > > Steve > > Congratulations. It sounds like you love it like the rest of us do. Welcome aboard !!! > > Your Rocky Mountain has a special hook-up for the tach. I will look it up and see what it was I did on Bob's and my planes. Get back to you later. > > congratulations !!! > > Cliff Shaw > 1041 Euclid ave. > Edmonds, WA 98020 > 425 776 5555 > http://www.europaowners.org/WileE > > The engine runs smooth like an electric motor. ------I The neighbors didn't even take notice, ----- > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:57 PM PST US From: "Garry" Subject: Europa-List: 914 Stuck Wastegate --> Europa-List message posted by: "Garry" Yesterday I went out for my $100 hamburger flight. At about 400 ft after takeoff I scanned my gauges and found to my horror that my manifold pressure was reading 52 inches! My EGT was rapidly climbing through 1650 degrees (F) and my CHT and Oil Temps were climbing at about 240 degrees (F). Since I was low and slow I immediately pulled back the throttle to 29 inches to maintain some climb performance to pattern altitude, but temps continued to climb. At pattern altitude I pulled back to about 22 inches which stopped the rise in temps....but still way too high, and immediately landed . I knew immediately that I had a stuck turbo wastegate. Upon landing I pulled off the cowlings and sprayed the wastegate with "Blaster" (a product in the US for unsticking stuck things). Thought I had it fixed, so went up for another go at it. Same result. Back down, cowlings off and more spraying, but this time I tried to wiggle the wastegate lever with a long screwdriver.......but it was really "stuck". Finally I whacked it with a big hammer and "pop" it came unstuck. Took it up for a flight and all seems well. My questions for the forum are: 1. did I do any damage to the engine running it at 52" MAP for maybe 30 seconds? If possible, what should I look for and what tests or diagnostics should I be doing to determine if I have any damage? 2. Does anyone have any bright ideas on how to determine if their wastegate is stuck BEFORE they commence takeoff? My normal preflight runup consists of taking the engine up to 4,000 RPM, checking left and right ignition drops, then cycling the prop several times. Then, I put the prop (Whirlwind hydraulic) into max pitch and take the MAP up to 30", which is about the highest power setting I can hold back with the brakes. None of these tests are going to show me if I have a stuck wastegate. Ideas and comments appreciated. P.S. I used 100 LL avgas for the first 300 hours but have used 93 mogas for the past 100 hours. Garry Stout 914 Trigear. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:17:31 PM PST US From: "Jerry Rehn" Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Stuck Wastegate --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jerry Rehn" Gary When you switch on the power to the turbo the red and yellow lights should illuminate momentarily if all is well. Did your lights do this? Also did your red over boost light come on when your pressure exceeded normal pressure? Just wondering if the lights are working properly. I know when I power up my turbo it cycles the waste gate as part of the test.So maybe we ought to add "whack the turbo" to our regular maintenance checks:) Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garry" Subject: Europa-List: 914 Stuck Wastegate > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Garry" > > Yesterday I went out for my $100 hamburger flight. At about 400 ft after > takeoff I scanned my gauges and found to my horror that my manifold > pressure was reading 52 inches! several times. Then, I put the prop > (Whirlwind hydraulic) into max pitch and take the MAP up to 30", which is > about the highest power setting I can hold back with the brakes. None of > these tests are going to show me if I have a stuck wastegate. > > Ideas and comments appreciated. P.S. I used 100 LL avgas for the first > 300 hours but have used 93 mogas for the past 100 hours. > > Garry Stout > 914 Trigear. > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:07 PM PST US From: Gert Dalgaard Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Stuck Wastegate --> Europa-List message posted by: Gert Dalgaard Hi Gerry I had the same problem at bout 300 hours and traced it back to the bowden-cable what had a very small heat-damage due to routing it to close to the exhaust pipe..... Changed the cable and everything worked out properly again. Regards Gert OY-GDS / Mono / 914 Den 19/09/2005 kl. 0.42 skrev Garry: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Garry" > > Yesterday I went out for my $100 hamburger flight. At about 400 ft > after takeoff I scanned my gauges and found to my horror that my > manifold pressure was reading 52 inches! My EGT was rapidly > climbing through 1650 degrees (F)