Europa-List Digest Archive

Mon 09/19/05


Total Messages Posted: 26



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 12:59 AM - Re: Newbies on the List (BEBERRY@aol.com)
     2. 05:24 AM - Insurance (Curtis Jaussi)
     3. 08:08 AM - Re: Insurance (Paul McAllister)
     4. 08:45 AM - autopilot no use, was Re: Newbies on the List, (josok)
     5. 09:21 AM - Sticking wastegate - No wastegate? (Steve Hagar)
     6. 09:51 AM - Re: 914 Stuck Wastegate (Garry)
     7. 10:23 AM - Let talk about Fuselage Gaps!   (EuropaXSA276@aol.com)
     8. 10:30 AM - Re: Fwf Prices (terrys@cisco.com)
     9. 10:32 AM - Re: Insurance (Steve Crimm)
    10. 11:10 AM - Re: Fwf Prices (Paul Boulet)
    11. 11:25 AM - Re: Let talk about Fuselage Gaps!   (DuaneFamly@AOL.COM)
    12. 11:28 AM - Re: re 912s vs 914 TBO (DuaneFamly@aol.com)
    13. 11:38 AM - Re: Let talk about Fuselage Gaps!   (Steve Hagar)
    14. 11:47 AM - Re: ENGINES! (nigelcharles@tiscali.co.uk)
    15. 11:51 AM - Re: Fwf Prices (terrys@cisco.com)
    16. 02:47 PM - Re: Insurance (Dean Seitz)
    17. 03:03 PM - Re: Fwf Prices (Bryan Allsop)
    18. 03:56 PM - Re: Let talk about Fuselage Gaps!  (N55XS)
    19. 04:39 PM - Re: Fwf Prices (terrys@cisco.com)
    20. 04:50 PM - Re: Let talk about Fuselage Gaps!  (josok)
    21. 04:56 PM - Re: Insurance (Jim Brown)
    22. 06:24 PM - Tri-gear Conversion Kit (Cliff Shaw)
    23. 09:05 PM - Re: 914 Stuck Wastegate (Matthew Carpenter)
    24. 09:10 PM - Re: Insurance (Matthew Carpenter)
    25. 10:19 PM - Re: Europa-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 09/18/05 (c w)
    26. 10:59 PM - Re: Fwf Prices (William Mills)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 12:59:29 AM PST US
    From: BEBERRY@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Newbies on the List
    --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com Ira, I appreciate your comments. I am, however, not overly pleased to be described as a 'Newby'. which may be true as far as this list is concerned, but after some 50 years + of aviation, including carrier ops (over 1000 deck landings in jets) , I am not amused at your condescending attitude. My experience in aviation is quite as relevant as your boast of 1000 mile trips. I will continue on this forum to offer opinions in the hope of receiving advice and comment, which I accept may well differ from my own perceptions. So far I have gained a lot of information from many submissions, which have been made in a helpful and friendly manner. You are the one exception and I would be grateful if we could resume without acrimony and without being treated as the new boy whose opinions are rubbished. The forum is of great value to all Europa flyers and I hope to see much more of the excellent advice and information which I have gleaned in a relatively short time. The latest comments on wategate operation and faults is interesting. Has anyone a complete solution to sticking wastegates, lubrication of whatever? Patrick.


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:24:40 AM PST US
    From: "Curtis Jaussi" <jaussi@ubtanet.com>
    Subject: Insurance
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Curtis Jaussi" <jaussi@ubtanet.com> I have just been told by Falcon Insurance that hull insurance is not available anywhere in the US for the Europa because of the demise of the original Europa Factory..something to do with fear of spare parts not being available. Has anyone else run into this and what solutions may be out there? Curtis Jaussi N6125A trigear 11-hours


    Message 3


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    Time: 08:08:09 AM PST US
    From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
    Subject: Re: Insurance
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net> Curtis, Try my broker at http://www.wenkinsurance.com/. I believe that there are 2 underwriters that still offer it. Its not cheap though, around 1250 for hull not in motion and for me around $2500 for full coverage on a hull value of $70,000 Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curtis Jaussi" <jaussi@ubtanet.com> Subject: Europa-List: Insurance > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Curtis Jaussi" <jaussi@ubtanet.com> > > I have just been told by Falcon Insurance that hull insurance is not > available anywhere in the US for the Europa because of the demise of the > original Europa Factory..something to do with fear of spare parts not > being available. Has anyone else run into this and what solutions may > be out there? > > > Curtis Jaussi > N6125A trigear > 11-hours > > >


    Message 4


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    Time: 08:45:36 AM PST US
    Subject: autopilot no use, was RE: Newbies on the List,
    From: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
    1.41 REPLY_TO_EMPTY Reply-To: is empty --> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi> Modesty is probably the key word. We all are experts in some area, and stupid in others. Some of the best technicians here are not necessarily the best writers. Some of the best writers: well you get the picture :-). I've more experience in emailing, and it's predecessors than most, and still hit the reply button too quick sometimes, resulting in flames or worse. Especially after having watched the fox news channel for some time. But hey, mistakes are human, and as long you are not flying, you usually come away with them. Makes me very modest about my 200 hrs flying... On the positive side, this Europa flyer's and builders group is one of the best, both in signal to noise as well as a general "nice and friendly" atmosphere. Let's try to keep it that way? Oh, to prevent remarks of being of topic: Would you install an autopilot again if you had a second choice Ira? ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/


    Message 5


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    Time: 09:21:21 AM PST US
    From: "Steve Hagar" <hagargs@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Sticking wastegate - No wastegate?
    2.05 DATE_IN_FUTURE_24_48 Date: is 24 to 48 hours after Received: date --> Europa-List message posted by: "Steve Hagar" <hagargs@earthlink.net> It seems to me that the rubber hose downstream of turbo and upstream of the airbox is just begging to be removed and be replaced by some sort of adjustable pressure relief valve. Something that could be set to open up at 40 inches or so and stay open until the waste gate is fixed. Or better yet use an adjustable setting on a unit that doesn't stay open. To perhaps regulate maximum pressure to 34 inches or so to "turbo normalize" the engine and dispense with electronic control of the waste gate. Has anyone seen anything like that? Steve Hagar A143 Mesa AZ N40SH Steve Hagar hagargs@earthlink.net


    Message 6


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    Time: 09:51:37 AM PST US
    From: "Garry" <garrys@tampabay.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: 914 Stuck Wastegate
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Garry" <garrys@tampabay.rr.com> Gert, I understand your cable issue but no, I had the shaft which operates the butterfly valve in the wastegate, stuck. Garry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gert Dalgaard" <lgds@post6.tele.dk> Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Stuck Wastegate > --> Europa-List message posted by: Gert Dalgaard <lgds@post6.tele.dk> > > Hi Gerry > I had the same problem at bout 300 hours and traced it back to the > bowden-cable what had a very small heat-damage due to routing it to > close to the exhaust pipe..... > Changed the cable and everything worked out properly again. > Regards Gert > OY-GDS / Mono / 914 > > > Den 19/09/2005 kl. 0.42 skrev Garry: > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Garry" <garrys@tampabay.rr.com> >> >> Yesterday I went out for my $100 hamburger flight. At about 400 ft >> after takeoff I scanned my gauges and found to my horror that my >> manifold pressure was reading 52 inches! My EGT was rapidly >> climbing through 1650 degrees (F) > > >


    Message 7


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    Time: 10:23:17 AM PST US
    From: EuropaXSA276@aol.com
    Subject: Let talk about Fuselage Gaps! <Flame Extinguisher>
    --> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com Lets take a deep breath and get back to building. I have a question about the way my top is fitting at the vertical seam in the tail area. I have an 8 to10 mm gap at the vertical line joggles on the tail section. The flange on the bottom half of the fuselage will be only 13 mm wide where the top bonds in this area. < Probably should have cut the bottom flange wider at this point but did not as it was many chapters before this issue came up> The top is properly seated at the firewall making sure there are no bumps or mold marks to keep it too far forward. I originally used ratchet straps to close this gap. It helps but the bottom half of the fuselage tends to bow a bit. I have noted this same problem on one or two other airframes. Is this normal? What is the fix? Should I fill the gap and do a lay-up on the outside of this area for strength? If so how many plies and size? Brian Skelly Texas Europa # A276 TriGear See My build photos at: http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS


    Message 8


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    Time: 10:30:45 AM PST US
    From: terrys@cisco.com
    Subject: Fwf Prices
    --> Europa-List message posted by: terrys@cisco.com Hi All, I have been watching this engine thread now for a while, and finally feel the need to make a few comments. 1) It has been suggested that people each believe THEIR engine is the best, not true. After 4 years and 400+ hours flying behind a Rotax 912S, I would almost certainly not buy that engine again, for a variety of reasons. 2) It has been suggested that the Rotax is a good choice because it is the standard package from Europa. We found the XS cowl design to be VERY poor, with serious heating problems, in the air and on the ground, that took many months of careful work to improve (I cannot to say FIXED), and drag issues that have yet to be resolved. 3) It has been suggested that the 912S gets better gas mileage than X. Without the ability to adjust the mixture, the 912S is unable to take advantage of altitude for more efficient cruise. Here is the Western US we are often forced to 9,000+ feet by the terrain, and I would prefer getting my money worth from the engine at this altitude. 4) We have had serious reliability problems with our 912S, mostly due to the horrible starting issues. This has only been solved recently with upgraded starter and slipper clutch installation, both of which were not available when we bought our kit. Others have reported problems with sprag clutches, etc. 5) Our 912S leaks coolant most of the time. We tighten all the hose clamps, maybe is stops for a little while, then you look down and there is coolant on the floor again. I have heard newer engines have better hose clamps, I hope so. Items 4) and 5) may have been fixed in the years since we bought out engine, items 2) and 3) are still issues today, in my opinion. Regards, Terry Seaver A135 / N135TD -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KARL HEINDL Subject: Europa-List: Fwf Prices --> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" <kheindl@msn.com> Nigel, Very good engine summary. I was always glad I chose the obvious: a 912S, and a trigear. A quick comparison on prices for fwf kits: according to Andy the Jabiru kit is $ 18,100; I assume that includes every nut and bolt, and assuming a current exchange rate of 1.8 for the Rotax kits I see that the 912S kit is an additional $ 2,500, not the end of the world. But then you look at the 914, and it is an extra 50%, a whopping $ 9000. It is ideal for high alltitude cruising and obviously aimed at this specialized market. For a long time the 914 was the only alternative to the 912, but when the 912S version came out, it in my opinion made the 914 largely obsolete. I get the impression that many builders are in a very high income bracket, and spending an extra ten or even twenty grand means nothing to them (i.e. airline pilots, whether current or retired). p.s. the Rotax kit prices on the Europa website may not include the Warp Drive propeller, as none are listed. I remember, when I bought my kit, the prop was included, and every nut and bolt and rivet. Karl


    Message 9


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    Time: 10:32:38 AM PST US
    From: "Steve Crimm" <steve.crimm@stephenscott.com>
    Subject: Insurance
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Steve Crimm" <steve.crimm@stephenscott.com> Falcon is pulling your chain. I just renewed in the first part of September thru my broker (USAA) who had it written with AIG for a little over $2200 and a $70,000 hull. Also I found this out to late but the Soaring Society of America has a deal with Costello Insurance. My Europa is registered as a glider and I am going to check with them because they have a special with the SSA thru AIG. Any deal is better than $2200.00 in my book. http://gliderinsurance.com/GI_HOME.html?layout=GI_MAIN Steve Crimm A058 N15JN -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Curtis Jaussi Subject: Europa-List: Insurance --> Europa-List message posted by: "Curtis Jaussi" <jaussi@ubtanet.com> I have just been told by Falcon Insurance that hull insurance is not available anywhere in the US for the Europa because of the demise of the original Europa Factory..something to do with fear of spare parts not being available. Has anyone else run into this and what solutions may be out there? Curtis Jaussi N6125A trigear 11-hours


    Message 10


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    Time: 11:10:38 AM PST US
    From: Paul Boulet <possibletodo@YAHOO.COM>
    Subject: Fwf Prices
    --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Boulet <possibletodo@yahoo.com> Hi Terrry; thanks for your thoughts. I took the Rotax owners class and it was demonstrated to me that the carbs are altitude compensating which means they lean automatically. Did I totally misunderstand something? Thanks Paul Boulet, N914PB, Malibu, CA "10 hours on plane, changing from mono to a tri gear" terrys@cisco.com wrote: --> Europa-List message posted by: terrys@cisco.com Hi All, I have been watching this engine thread now for a while, and finally feel the need to make a few comments. 1) It has been suggested that people each believe THEIR engine is the best, not true. After 4 years and 400+ hours flying behind a Rotax 912S, I would almost certainly not buy that engine again, for a variety of reasons. 2) It has been suggested that the Rotax is a good choice because it is the standard package from Europa. We found the XS cowl design to be VERY poor, with serious heating problems, in the air and on the ground, that took many months of careful work to improve (I cannot to say FIXED), and drag issues that have yet to be resolved. 3) It has been suggested that the 912S gets better gas mileage than X. Without the ability to adjust the mixture, the 912S is unable to take advantage of altitude for more efficient cruise. Here is the Western US we are often forced to 9,000+ feet by the terrain, and I would prefer getting my money worth from the engine at this altitude. 4) We have had serious reliability problems with our 912S, mostly due to the horrible starting issues. This has only been solved recently with upgraded starter and slipper clutch installation, both of which were not available when we bought our kit. Others have reported problems with sprag clutches, etc. 5) Our 912S leaks coolant most of the time. We tighten all the hose clamps, maybe is stops for a little while, then you look down and there is coolant on the floor again. I have heard newer engines have better hose clamps, I hope so. Items 4) and 5) may have been fixed in the years since we bought out engine, items 2) and 3) are still issues today, in my opinion. Regards, Terry Seaver A135 / N135TD -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KARL HEINDL Subject: Europa-List: Fwf Prices --> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" Nigel, Very good engine summary. I was always glad I chose the obvious: a 912S, and a trigear. A quick comparison on prices for fwf kits: according to Andy the Jabiru kit is $ 18,100; I assume that includes every nut and bolt, and assuming a current exchange rate of 1.8 for the Rotax kits I see that the 912S kit is an additional $ 2,500, not the end of the world. But then you look at the 914, and it is an extra 50%, a whopping $ 9000. It is ideal for high alltitude cruising and obviously aimed at this specialized market. For a long time the 914 was the only alternative to the 912, but when the 912S version came out, it in my opinion made the 914 largely obsolete. I get the impression that many builders are in a very high income bracket, and spending an extra ten or even twenty grand means nothing to them (i.e. airline pilots, whether current or retired). p.s. the Rotax kit prices on the Europa website may not include the Warp Drive propeller, as none are listed. I remember, when I bought my kit, the prop was included, and every nut and bolt and rivet. Karl


    Message 11


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    Time: 11:25:05 AM PST US
    From: DuaneFamly@AOL.COM
    Subject: Re: Let talk about Fuselage Gaps! <Flame Extinguisher>
    --> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com Hi Brian, I had that same problem. Mine seemed to have enough of a lip in the joggle area that the contact seemed to be sufficient. But it still left a gap on the outside that I will fill in later. However, I like to error on the safe side, so I added a single layer of 3 inch wide "S" Glass on the inside of the seam from right behind the seat backs, past the "D" window, and up to cover the joggle to the rear bulkhead. I made sure that when I did the top to bottom Redux bond, that I reached into the rear of the fuselage with a soft plastic putty knife attached to a long handle to smooth out the inside seam. Then after the Redux cured, I cut the "S" glass, wetted it out on a piece of plastic, mixed up some flox with a portion of the mixed epoxy, climbed into the rear on top of the shelf (see below) and painted the joint with epoxy, followed by the flox mix to fill any holes or voids, then had the glass passed to me and layed it up along the seam. I stippled the "S" glass in place and covered with peel ply. In order to work on the inside of the rear fuselage, just prior to the top going on, I mounted a cleat on both side on the inside of the fuselage just below the seam in order to be able to place a temporary shelf between the "D" window and mass balance tower for me to lay on when I had to do anything in the rear. This allowed me working room when if crawled through the "D" window. I also re-enforced the lower lip of the "D" window bulkhead. I hope this helps. Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear


    Message 12


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    Time: 11:28:19 AM PST US
    From: DuaneFamly@aol.com
    Subject: Re: re 912s vs 914 TBO
    --> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com Patrick, Well said. Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Do Not Archive


    Message 13


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    Time: 11:38:12 AM PST US
    From: "Steve Hagar" <hagargs@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Let talk about Fuselage Gaps! <Flame Extinguisher>
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Steve Hagar" <hagargs@earthlink.net> This is typical in this area, mine was like that also, as well as others. To make myself feel better about it I made some layups on the inside of the fuselage in this area. I believe it was 3 plys of bid. I was using heavier stuff than that originally supplied by Europa. My size for the layup was limited by what I could get in through the access hole in the back and still do a good job. One and a half to 2 inches on either side of the bond line should be good. Make sure the surface is sanded and abraided real well before laying up the mat. My "gap" was larger than that in places. Steve Steve Hagar hagargs@earthlink.net > [Original Message] > From: <EuropaXSA276@aol.com> > To: <europa-list@matronics.com> > Date: 9/19/2005 10:22:18 AM > Subject: Europa-List: Let talk about Fuselage Gaps! <Flame Extinguisher> > > --> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com > > Lets take a deep breath and get back to building. > > I have a question about the way my top is fitting at the vertical seam in the > tail area. > > I have an 8 to10 mm gap at the vertical line joggles on the tail section. > The flange on the bottom half of the fuselage will be only 13 mm wide where the > top bonds in this area. < Probably should have cut the bottom flange wider at > this point but did not as it was many chapters before this issue came up> > The top is properly seated at the firewall making sure there are no bumps or > mold marks to keep it too far forward. > > I originally used ratchet straps to close this gap. It helps but the bottom > half of the fuselage tends to bow a bit. > > I have noted this same problem on one or two other airframes. Is this normal? > > What is the fix? > > Should I fill the gap and do a lay-up on the outside of this area for > strength? If so how many plies and size? > > Brian Skelly > Texas > Europa # A276 TriGear > See My build photos at: > http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS > >


    Message 14


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    Time: 11:47:35 AM PST US
    From: nigelcharles@tiscali.co.uk
    Subject: Re: ENGINES!
    --> Europa-List message posted by: nigelcharles@tiscali.co.uk Hi Duncan Sorry I got it wrong. I don't believe anyone is now considering the BMW so it doesn't matter too much. I am sure if anyone could have made the BMW work satisfactorily it would have been you. Regards Nigel >-- Original Message -- >From: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> >To: <europa-list@matronics.com> >Subject: Re: Europa-List: ENGINES! >Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 18:00:51 +0100 >Reply-To: europa-list@matronics.com > > >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk> > > >.<<...> BMW.....torsional vibration proved to be a too difficult >> problem to overcome after exhaustive development work....>> > >Nigel, >Please note that when running the BMW did NOT suffer from torsional >vibration problems. Rather, it had the same starting difficulty that the > >912S sometimes has (only more extreme) which, by consensus of this forum, >is >not torsional vibration (although I don't agree with that). > >Rgds., >Duncan McF. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "nigel charles" <nigelcharles@tiscali.co.uk> >To: <europa-list@matronics.com> >Subject: RE: Europa-List: ENGINES! > > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" >> <nigelcharles@tiscali.co.uk> >> >>>Thats easy! >>>> Get the 140 hp Dual Port Fuel Injected EA81 with redundant injection >>>>here:< >> >> Very easy if you want to substitute baggage capability for engine >> weight. The extra weight also means the battery has to be in the tail to >> keep the C of G within limits. This increases the pitch inertia which >> degrades the handling characteristics slightly. >> >> For those who are new to the forum and are trying to make an engine >> choice the following might be a useful summary: >> >> Subaru - too heavy, NSI (the company producing the engine/gearbox >> package) have a poor customer relations record. >> >> BMW - nice engine but torsional vibration proved to be a too difficult >> problem to overcome after exhaustive development work. >> >> Mid West Rotary - very smooth and light but excessive fuel consumption >> and very difficult to set up to run smoothly at all rpm's. >> >> Wilksch Diesel - lovely engine with many original design patents. It is >> very fuel efficient and cheap to run due to much cheaper jet fuel. This >> is an engine to watch in the future for the replacement of >> Lyco/Continentals but it is just too heavy for the Europa. The radiator >> adds significantly to the frontal area which may increase drag. >> >> Lyco/Continental - too heavy and high fuel consumption. >> >> Jabiru - the only workable alternative to the Rotax for the Europa. True >> it is simpler. If you want a simple aircraft you would probably not have >> chosen the Europa in the first place. Although it has a higher power >> output it is at 3300rpm which is too high for the prop to use >> efficiently so the performance advantage is negated. Being aircooled the >> fuel efficiency is slightly down on the Rotax. Some cooling issues were >> apparent from the cowling mods seen on early aircraft. It definitely has >> a price advantage which is the one area which lets the Rotax down. If I >> was cost limited I would sooner spend it on the engine rather than >> expensive avionics. >> >> Rotax - still the most suitable engine for the aircraft if rather >> expensive. As Ivan Shaw said in the early days of the Europa 'there is >> more work in developing the engine for the airframe than designing the >> airframe in the first place'. The P51 argument would be relevant if >> there was an engine that was significantly more suited to the airframe >> but so far this is not the case. >> >> Choice of versions of the Rotax >> >> 912 - very fuel efficient but a little underpowered for the Europa >> especially at max weight with high density altitudes. Using a VP prop >> helps to extract maximum power at take-off without affecting cruise >> performance. >> >> 912S - the extra 20hp make all the difference. Probably the first choice >> for most Rotax users. Make sure the higher power starter is installed to >> help prevent kickbacks on start due to the higher compression ratio. >> >> 914 Turbo - yet more performance but at a price and increased >> complexity. Probably the best engine for those who regularly operate at >> high density altitudes. However the 912S with a VP prop will give >> adequate performance up to density altitudes of at least 10,000ft and >> will comfortably exceed Vno at low altitudes. >> >> >> > > Book yourself something to look forward to in 2005. Cheap flights - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/flights/ Bargain holidays - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/holidays/


    Message 15


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    Time: 11:51:48 AM PST US
    From: terrys@cisco.com
    Subject: Fwf Prices
    --> Europa-List message posted by: terrys@cisco.com HI Paul, I have also heard that the carbs on the 912/912S are altitude compensating. I have also heard from others that they are not. Our experience is that they do not fully compensate for altitude. As we climb we increase the throttle position to maintain 5.3 gph (75% power at sea level?), yet manifold pressure continues to decrease at these higher altitudes (this is all at constant RPM, of course). Given that we use the throttle to maintain 5.3 gph as we climb to higher altitudes, our cruise speed (TAS) holds fairly constant at about 139 knots (on a cooler day, less on hotter days). If the carbs were leaning correctly, we should see an increase in cruise speed (at constant FF), and we don't. I suppose a good test would be to use the throttle to maintain constant MP, lower and higher altitudes, and note the difference in fuel flow. Something to keep in mind, for the next flight with nothing else to do. Regards, Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Boulet Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fwf Prices --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Boulet <possibletodo@yahoo.com> Hi Terrry; thanks for your thoughts. I took the Rotax owners class and it was demonstrated to me that the carbs are altitude compensating which means they lean automatically. Did I totally misunderstand something? Thanks Paul Boulet, N914PB, Malibu, CA "10 hours on plane, changing from mono to a tri gear"


    Message 16


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    Time: 02:47:54 PM PST US
    From: "Dean Seitz" <daseitz@cfl.rr.com>
    Subject: Insurance
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Dean Seitz" <daseitz@cfl.rr.com> I have a policy through Falcon for mine and there's no problem except the price, $2200 for $65K and $180 for liability (1 Million and 100K medical).If I'm not mistaken the guy to talk to is Jim Nelson at Falcon. Dean Seitz N284A XS Tri gear High Top 914 -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Curtis Jaussi Subject: Europa-List: Insurance --> Europa-List message posted by: "Curtis Jaussi" <jaussi@ubtanet.com> I have just been told by Falcon Insurance that hull insurance is not available anywhere in the US for the Europa because of the demise of the original Europa Factory..something to do with fear of spare parts not being available. Has anyone else run into this and what solutions may be out there? Curtis Jaussi N6125A trigear 11-hours


    Message 17


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    Time: 03:03:33 PM PST US
    From: "Bryan Allsop" <bryan@blackballclub.com>
    Subject: Re: Fwf Prices
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bryan Allsop" <bryan@blackballclub.com> Hello. Hello! Back here in Blighty I know several people who power their Europas with 912S's. None of them report the problems which have been experienced by you Terry. We don't fly so high, and generally we don't fly at 139kts (approx), but we do have short grass strips and a max weight requirement of 1370 pounds. This engine is ideal for the Europa in the UK. It weighs less than the 912, and far less than the 914, leaving plenty of spare payload for luggage. The common concern with XS/912S combination is that it runs too cool, so that blanking is often required. Since most of the engine problem correspondence has involved the more complex 914, I have always assumed that the silent majority were satisfied 912/912S types. Perhaps I was wrong. I have reluctantly join this thread of debate, and will now happily rejoin those silent ranks 'till the subject finally expires into the ether. Ta Ta. Bryan. ----- Original Message ----- From: <terrys@cisco.com> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fwf Prices > --> Europa-List message posted by: terrys@cisco.com > > Hi All, > > I have been watching this engine thread now for a while, and finally > feel the need to make a few comments. > > 1) It has been suggested that people each believe THEIR engine is the > best, not true. After 4 years and 400+ hours flying behind a Rotax > 912S, I would almost certainly not buy that engine again, for a variety > of reasons. > 2) It has been suggested that the Rotax is a good choice because it is > the standard package from Europa. We found the XS cowl design to be > VERY poor, with serious heating problems, in the air and on the ground, > that took many months of careful work to improve (I cannot to say > FIXED), and drag issues that have yet to be resolved. > 3) It has been suggested that the 912S gets better gas mileage than X. > Without the ability to adjust the mixture, the 912S is unable to take > advantage of altitude for more efficient cruise. Here is the Western US > we are often forced to 9,000+ feet by the terrain, and I would prefer > getting my money worth from the engine at this altitude. > 4) We have had serious reliability problems with our 912S, mostly due to > the horrible starting issues. This has only been solved recently with > upgraded starter and slipper clutch installation, both of which were not > available when we bought our kit. Others have reported problems with > sprag clutches, etc. > 5) Our 912S leaks coolant most of the time. We tighten all the hose > clamps, maybe is stops for a little while, then you look down and there > is coolant on the floor again. I have heard newer engines have better > hose clamps, I hope so. > > Items 4) and 5) may have been fixed in the years since we bought out > engine, items 2) and 3) are still issues today, in my opinion. > > Regards, > Terry Seaver > A135 / N135TD > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KARL HEINDL > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Fwf Prices > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" <kheindl@msn.com> > > > Nigel, > > Very good engine summary. I was always glad I chose the obvious: a 912S, > and a trigear. > > A quick comparison on prices for fwf kits: according to Andy the Jabiru > kit is $ 18,100; I assume that includes every nut and bolt, and assuming > a current exchange rate of 1.8 for the Rotax kits I see that the 912S > kit is an additional $ 2,500, not the end of the world. But then you > look at the 914, and it is an extra 50%, a whopping $ 9000. It is ideal > for high alltitude cruising and obviously aimed at this specialized > market. For a long time the 914 was the only alternative to the 912, but > when the 912S version came out, it in my opinion made the 914 largely > obsolete. > I get the impression that many builders are in a very high income > bracket, and spending an extra ten or even twenty grand means nothing to > them (i.e. > airline pilots, whether current or retired). > > p.s. the Rotax kit prices on the Europa website may not include the Warp > Drive propeller, as none are listed. I remember, when I bought my kit, > the prop was included, and every nut and bolt and rivet. > > Karl > > >


    Message 18


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    Time: 03:56:09 PM PST US
    From: N55XS <topglock@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Let talk about Fuselage Gaps! <Flame Extinguisher>
    --> Europa-List message posted by: N55XS <topglock@cox.net> Well said, Brian. Now, for your delima. I experienced a slight gap problem, too, however, after checking the proper distance between the lower fuse flanges, where they go from vertical to horizonal, I found them a little close to each other. What I did was to open it with a bit of wood, that I affixed with a bit of 5 minute epoxy. This went a long way toward closing the gap. The most important thing is to make sure that your tail fin is square and pulled down tight in the rear. Any small gaps will be covered with the 4 ply of Bid that you will be reinforcing the seam with. Once sanded and filled and sanded and filled and sanded and filled and sanded, you'll never know it was there. The joint will be plenty strong... Jeff - N55XS 64 hours... EuropaXSA276@aol.com wrote: >--> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com > >Lets take a deep breath and get back to building. > >I have a question about the way my top is fitting at the vertical seam in the >tail area. > > I have an 8 to10 mm gap at the vertical line joggles on the tail section. >The flange on the bottom half of the fuselage will be only 13 mm wide where the >top bonds in this area. < Probably should have cut the bottom flange wider at >this point but did not as it was many chapters before this issue came up> >The top is properly seated at the firewall making sure there are no bumps or >mold marks to keep it too far forward. > >I originally used ratchet straps to close this gap. It helps but the bottom >half of the fuselage tends to bow a bit. > >I have noted this same problem on one or two other airframes. Is this normal? > > What is the fix? > >Should I fill the gap and do a lay-up on the outside of this area for >strength? If so how many plies and size? > >Brian Skelly >Texas >Europa # A276 TriGear >See My build photos at: >http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS > > > >


    Message 19


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    Time: 04:39:08 PM PST US
    From: terrys@cisco.com
    Subject: Fwf Prices
    --> Europa-List message posted by: terrys@cisco.com I'm sure there are many who wish this subject would finally die out, so I will make this my last message on this thread as well. We had two different heat problems with our 912S installation, which by the way, was as stock as we could make it (i.e. no builder enhancements). 1) The lower cowl temps got as high as 450 deg F when leveling out from the climb, melting tie wraps and taking the temper out of muffler mounting springs, causing the muffler to fail after about 5 hours flight time. That caused CO in the cockpit to exceed 150 ppm, as measured next to the pilot's head. I have not heard others mention this problem, but then, we took the time to instrument in-cowl temps in five places, so, who knows. We do know that curing the in-cowl temp problem dropped our oil temps noticeably, and high oil temps in the climb have been the subject of more than one email on this list. 2) We saw high coolant temps on the ground on even moderate days (70 deg F), and managed to boil some coolant (50/50) out on more than one occasion. With many mods to the system we have something marginally acceptable. When I first mentioned this to the group (BTW, surprised no one else had seen this problem), I received many replies saying they had the same problem. One response was that if the tower could not clear the aircraft for immediate takeoff, the pilot told the tower he was shutting down his engine and requested they give him a green light when it was finally his turn to go! It is not my purpose here to rant about how bad Europa/Rotax are. I DO believe we are responsible to tell the bad (as well as good) on this list in the hopes of helping others that may find the same problems some day. I strongly believe the XS cowl has very poor cooling, at least in regards to a monowheel 912S installation. The Rotax is supposed to have air cooling for the cylinders, and the standard XS cowl does not do that properly, IMHO. At the least, the rear louvers in the upper cowl should be closed off and a baffle placed between the footwells, in order to get cooling air past the cylinders and exhaust system (the lower-rear ducting also needs to be trimmed forward to provide proper exit area). My last posting on this thread, I promise. Regards, Terry Seaver A135 / N135TD P.S. We were also concerned about running too cool until we realized the Rotax temp gauge is mounted in the coolest part of the system. Measurement taken at the hottest part (oil tank inlet) revealed it was higher by 50 deg F in climb and 40 deg F in cruise. --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bryan Allsop" --> <bryan@blackballclub.com> Hello. Hello! Back here in Blighty I know several people who power their Europas with 912S's. None of them report the problems which have been experienced by you Terry. We don't fly so high, and generally we don't fly at 139kts (approx), but we do have short grass strips and a max weight requirement of 1370 pounds. This engine is ideal for the Europa in the UK. It weighs less than the 912, and far less than the 914, leaving plenty of spare payload for luggage. The common concern with XS/912S combination is that it runs too cool, so that blanking is often required. Since most of the engine problem correspondence has involved the more complex 914, I have always assumed that the silent majority were satisfied 912/912S types. Perhaps I was wrong. I have reluctantly join this thread of debate, and will now happily rejoin those silent ranks 'till the subject finally expires into the ether. Ta Ta. Bryan.


    Message 20


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    Time: 04:50:33 PM PST US
    Subject: RE: Let talk about Fuselage Gaps! <Flame Extinguisher>
    From: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
    1.41 REPLY_TO_EMPTY Reply-To: is empty --> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi> And check that the ratcheting is not changing the geometry around the tail plane torque tube? It might get stiff without a spreader. Similar gap on kit #600, will do a layup all over the seam. Regards, Jos Okhuijsen ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/


    Message 21


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    Time: 04:56:42 PM PST US
    From: Jim Brown <acrojim@cfl.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Insurance
    --> Europa-List message posted by: Jim Brown <acrojim@cfl.rr.com> Try AOPA insurance. 800-622-2672 I have used them past 3 years, Just renewed in July for another year. I have XS Monowheel. Jim Brown N398JB Curtis Jaussi wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Curtis Jaussi" <jaussi@ubtanet.com> > > I have just been told by Falcon Insurance that hull insurance is not > available anywhere in the US for the Europa because of the demise of the > original Europa Factory..something to do with fear of spare parts not > being available. Has anyone else run into this and what solutions may > be out there? > > Curtis Jaussi > N6125A trigear > 11-hours >


    Message 22


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    Time: 06:24:41 PM PST US
    From: "Cliff Shaw" <flyinggpa@comcast.net>
    Subject: Tri-gear Conversion Kit
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" <flyinggpa@comcast.net> All I have been helping a friend get familiar with an Europa he is handling for an estate. It is a mono and he is thinking it would sell better here in the US as a tri-gear. Question: Is there a tri-gear conversion kit available in someone's garage of hanger? The UK Europa price is very scary! Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE


    Message 23


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    Time: 09:05:06 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: 914 Stuck Wastegate
    From: Matthew Carpenter <europaxs@gmail.com>
    --> Europa-List message posted by: Matthew Carpenter <europaxs@gmail.com> We had the same problem back a few months ago... Details of that would happen: On run up I noticed that my MP was higher at 25% then normal. At 110% the MP would climb over the recommended.. and the engine would begin to cut out from lack of fuel. What we found is that the shaft that connects the wastegate to the cable would stick. When we turned the engine computer on, the waste gate servo would cycle, but the cable just bowed out. We used some "Mouse Milk" and it would fix the problem for 3 - 4 hours, but would burn off. AvGas is the problem here and does build up over time. We use TCP now.. Finally after talking with Rotax, we took the muffler off and had access to the back of the waste gate. We then used a solvent that removed all the Lead, Mouse Milk, and anything else on there. Rotax recommends that it be dry on that shaft. So far we have flown 15+ hours with not a problem. BUT! When I do my walk around before each flight, I turn on the master switch and make sure that the lights do not come on, then I repower it on and quickly duck around the front and watch the waste gate lever actually move. That proves to me that its working! Matt Carpenter A138 N138WJ Amarillo TX Garry wrote: >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Garry" <garrys@tampabay.rr.com> > >Gert, I understand your cable issue but no, I had the shaft which operates >the butterfly valve in the wastegate, stuck. > >Garry > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Gert Dalgaard" <lgds@post6.tele.dk> >To: <europa-list@matronics.com> >Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Stuck Wastegate > > > > >>--> Europa-List message posted by: Gert Dalgaard <lgds@post6.tele.dk> >> >>Hi Gerry >>I had the same problem at bout 300 hours and traced it back to the >>bowden-cable what had a very small heat-damage due to routing it to >>close to the exhaust pipe..... >>Changed the cable and everything worked out properly again. >>Regards Gert >>OY-GDS / Mono / 914 >> >> >>Den 19/09/2005 kl. 0.42 skrev Garry: >> >> >> >>>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Garry" <garrys@tampabay.rr.com> >>> >>>Yesterday I went out for my $100 hamburger flight. At about 400 ft >>>after takeoff I scanned my gauges and found to my horror that my >>>manifold pressure was reading 52 inches! My EGT was rapidly >>>climbing through 1650 degrees (F) >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > >


    Message 24


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    Time: 09:10:12 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Insurance
    From: Matthew Carpenter <europaxs@gmail.com>
    --> Europa-List message posted by: Matthew Carpenter <europaxs@gmail.com> We use Leading Edge Insurance Agency 210-696-6688 800-896-5145 Good price! Matt Carpenter N138WJ Jim Brown wrote: >--> Europa-List message posted by: Jim Brown <acrojim@cfl.rr.com> > >Try AOPA insurance. 800-622-2672 I have used them past 3 years, Just >renewed in July for another year. I have XS Monowheel. > >Jim Brown >N398JB > >Curtis Jaussi wrote: > > > >>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Curtis Jaussi" <jaussi@ubtanet.com> >> >>I have just been told by Falcon Insurance that hull insurance is not >>available anywhere in the US for the Europa because of the demise of the >>original Europa Factory..something to do with fear of spare parts not >>being available. Has anyone else run into this and what solutions may >>be out there? >> >>Curtis Jaussi >>N6125A trigear >>11-hours >> >> >> > > > >


    Message 25


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    Time: 10:19:40 PM PST US
    From: c w <pilotcraig2001@YAHOO.COM>
    Subject: Re: Europa-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 09/18/05
    --> Europa-List message posted by: c w <pilotcraig2001@yahoo.com> Hi im a stemme owner and regular monitor this group because of the 914 info. I was wondering where Ron got the Differential fuel pressure gauge at or what type to use. The Stemme just has a idiot light that keeps going crazy even though when I check the preasure out all is well. Craig I chose the 914. I will attempt to overcool. Installing a cooling air baffle, and can heat up by closing cowl flap. Will drop and direct a good amount of air to oil cooler, but install a Mocal 190 degree oil thermostat to get heat up. Water radiator will get a good amount of airflow, and cowl flap can reduce drag a bit and get temps up. Have Differential fuel pressure gauge, HD starter and intercooler. Closed cowl flap and oil thermostat should help get temps up on in-flight restarts after soaring. Ron Parigoris __________________________________


    Message 26


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    Time: 10:59:33 PM PST US
    From: "William Mills" <william@wrmills.plus.com>
    Subject: Re: Fwf Prices
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills" <william@wrmills.plus.com> At 13,000 ft with full throttle, my 912S fuel flow is 14 litres per hour, whereas on take-off at full throttle it burns 28 litres per hour. I assume that proves there is an automatic leaning of the carbs. Regards, William Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: <terrys@cisco.com> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fwf Prices > --> Europa-List message posted by: terrys@cisco.com > > HI Paul, > > I have also heard that the carbs on the 912/912S are altitude > compensating. I have also heard from others that they are not. Our > experience is that they do not fully compensate for altitude. As we > climb we increase the throttle position to maintain 5.3 gph (75% power > at sea level?), yet manifold pressure continues to decrease at these > higher altitudes (this is all at constant RPM, of course). Given that > we use the throttle to maintain 5.3 gph as we climb to higher altitudes, > our cruise speed (TAS) holds fairly constant at about 139 knots (on a > cooler day, less on hotter days). If the carbs were leaning correctly, > we should see an increase in cruise speed (at constant FF), and we > don't. > > I suppose a good test would be to use the throttle to maintain constant > MP, lower and higher altitudes, and note the difference in fuel flow. > Something to keep in mind, for the next flight with nothing else to do. > > Regards, > Terry > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Boulet > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fwf Prices > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Boulet <possibletodo@yahoo.com> > > Hi Terrry; > thanks for your thoughts. I took the Rotax owners class and it was > demonstrated to me that the carbs are altitude compensating which means > they lean automatically. Did I totally misunderstand something? Thanks > Paul Boulet, N914PB, Malibu, CA "10 hours on plane, changing from mono > to a tri gear" > > >




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