Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:48 AM - Electric Buss Pix (DuaneFamly@AOL.COM)
2. 01:01 AM - Re: Fwf Prices (Kingsley Hurst)
3. 01:53 AM - Re: ENGINES! (Jan de Jong)
4. 04:47 AM - Re: Fwf Prices (R.C.Harrison)
5. 05:09 AM - Skyforce III GPS (Brian Davies)
6. 07:18 AM - Re: Skyforce III GPS (R.C.Harrison)
7. 07:43 AM - Re: Skyforce III GPS (ivor.phillips)
8. 11:17 AM - Re: Laddingford Fly-In (Dari Sagar)
9. 11:32 AM - Re: Skyforce III GPS (Duncan McFadyean)
10. 12:20 PM - Re: Laddingford Fly-In (ivor.phillips)
11. 01:17 PM - Re: Laddingford Fly-In (Peter Rees)
12. 01:34 PM - Re: Electric Buss Pix (Rowland Carson)
13. 01:34 PM - Re: Copperstate (N914RB)
14. 01:56 PM - Re: Copperstate (Thomas Scherer)
15. 02:14 PM - Re: Laddingford Fly-In (Richard Iddon)
16. 05:49 PM - Re: Electric Buss Pix (SPurpura@AOL.COM)
17. 06:35 PM - Re: Copperstate (grroberts3@juno.com)
Message 1
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Subject: | Electric Buss Pix |
--> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com
Good day all,
Does anyone have pix of their electric buss? Build sites would be good. I'd
like to see what others have done so I can get an idea of the orientation of
all items.
Also, I seem to remember that someone made a reference guide that allowed
you to look up a part number and find where in the manual it was called out. Is
that still available?
Mike Duane A207A
Redding, California
XS Conventional Gear
Do Not Archive
Message 2
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
Hello Nigel,
Thank you for going to the trouble of explaining the Bing carburettor.
I am certainly not a fully bottle on its finer workings I can assure
you.
Since most people seem to want this thread to cease, I don't want to
bore everybody by carrying it on but before signing it off, I just want
to make the following comments.
Firstly, my reply to William was not meant to infer I disbelieved the
Bing carburettor has altitude leaning qualities. I know it does simply
by the fact that any carburettor on an 80 Hp engine that can get the
aircraft at near gross weight to 14,000 ft (ref Europa News in 1996
article - Kim Prout / Ivan Shaw) is certainly not running at full rich.
In relation to Williams suggestion, I felt and still do feel that the
reduced fuel consumption he spoke of is related more to the reduced
manifold pressure than the leaning effects of the carburettor. This is
why I suggested he try flying near sea level at around 13" MAP to
compare the fuel flow.
I have always found this argument about the Bing interesting because :-
1 I can refer to an article in another Europa News where the Europa's
creator Ivan Shaw categorically said that the Bing was NOT an altitude
compensating carburettor.
2 I am sure I also remember seeing somewhere that Rotax can offer an
altitude compensating carburettor.
It is probably splitting hairs but without further knowledge of these
carbs, I am wondering if the apparent altitude compensation is an
outcome of the Bing design rather than the design purpose if you can
understand what I am trying to say. IOW, although it does lean out with
Alt, does it lean the correct amount ???
Over and out !!
Kingsley
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nigel
Graham
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fwf Prices
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Nigel Graham"
<nigel_graham@btclick.com>
Hi William and Kingsley
The Rotax engines are fitted with Bing constant vacuum carburettors.
On these, the throttle slide and fuel control needle are not connected
to
the throttle cable (like the majority of motorcycle carbs except BMWs),
but
suspended under a rubber diaphragm - which is fed from a small venturi
into
the choke mouth.
The position of the throttle slide is therefore controlled by the volume
and
speed of the air passing over the venturi.
The throttle cable only operates a butterfly valve in behind the
throttle
slide. Open the butterfly, more air is allowed to pass and the throttle
slide rises, lifting the tapered fuel control needle and allowing more
fuel
in proportion to the volume of air passing through the carb.
The benefit for aviation applications is that as the density of air
drops
(when you go up) so the volume of air passing over the venturi will
begin to
drop and the slide will drop - automatically lowering the fuel control
needle. It doesn't "lean" the mixture as such - but attempts to keep the
correct stoiometric fuel/air ratio.
By operation, this is altitude compensating, but will also compensate
for
anything else that might reduce the air density - like hot or moist air.
Those trained to "lean off" as you fly through cloud really need do no
more
than "sit back, relax and enjoy the flight" as we are so often invited
to
do!
Apologies for the diversion, I'll let you all get back to squabbling
over
engine choice now while I slip back into "lurk" mode ;-)
Nigel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fwf Prices
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst"
<hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills" >
> At 13,000 ft with full throttle, my 912S fuel flow is 14 litres per
hour,
> whereas on take-off at full throttle it burns 28 litres per hour. I
> assume
> that proves there is an automatic leaning of the carbs.
Hello William,
With much respect I am wondering if it really does ? At 13,000 ft your
MAP
at full throttle is considerably less than at sea level with full
throttle.
I suspect if you fly at sea level with the same MAP as you are achieving
at
13,000 ft, your fuel flow will still be in the order of 14 LPH or most
likely even less.
If in fact you do have a MAP gauge, I would interested to hear the
result of
such a test.
Regards
Kingsley in Oz.
Message 3
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Jan de Jong <jan.de.jong@xs4all.nl>
Thanks for your insights. I will not go there...
Jan de Jong
>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
>
>True, but oil cooling of valves is less efficient than water (912!) and with
>no airflow over the oil cooler there is no cooling at all. In fact the
>workshop manual for the R1100 prohibits idling of the engine in the workshop
>for more than 5 minutes without forced cooling.
>
>Weight is much closer to (or exceeds) 90 kg when an engine mount and
>exhaust is added. Then there's the bigger or second battery, additional (and
>less efficient) cowl ducting, two fuel pumps etc.
>
>A promising engine for some applications, but not the Europa and I have to
>say reluctantly (having been there) that the 912 does it better than the
>BMW.
>
>Duncan McF.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jan de Jong" <jan.de.jong@xs4all.nl>
>Subject: Re: Europa-List: ENGINES!
>
>
>
>>> --> Europa-List message posted by: Jan de Jong <jan.de.jong@xs4all.nl>
>>>
>>> They claim very efficient cooling at the exhaust valves using a
>>> thermostatically controlled second oil circuit. Total weight is up at 80
>>> kg though.
>>>
>>> Jan de Jong
>>>
>>
>>
>>>>>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean"
>>>>><ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
>>>>>
>>>>>Which solves the starting problem and introduces a cooling problem i.e.no
>>>>>cooling airflow below c.1700rpm when the clutch disengages. Useful for
>>>>>float/boat planes though.
>>>>>
>>>>>Duncan McF.
>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: "Jan de Jong" <jan.de.jong@xs4all.nl>
>>>>>Subject: Re: Europa-List: ENGINES!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>> --> Europa-List message posted by: Jan de Jong <jan.de.jong@xs4all.nl>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> BMW developments are apparently still happening; using a centrifugal
>>>>>>>>> clutch integrated with the gearbox.
>>>>>>>>> http://www.spang-air.de/willkommen/BMW_Engine/bmw_engine.html
>>>>>>>>> http://www.takeoff-ul.de/Motoren/motoren.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jan de Jong
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________
>
Message 4
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Hi! Kingsley
Then even if the subject carries on it should have a final conclusion
and tell us some facts because what you say is a very valid point and it
would be of benefit for us all to know? If only to make performance
better at 13,500 ft to escape any rotor downdraught effects. The Dane in
his beautiful "Cosey" (?) who recently "pranged" after the Swiss Rally
would probably been able to escape his demise of the downdraft at the
end of his blind valley if his engine had a better high altitude power
output.
Isn't there a "Bing Specialist" lurking anywhere?
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300 SINGLE BING!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kingsley
Hurst
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fwf Prices
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst"
<hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
Hello Nigel,
Thank you for going to the trouble of explaining the Bing carburettor.
I am certainly not a fully bottle on its finer workings I can assure
you.
Since most people seem to want this thread to cease, I don't want to
bore everybody by carrying it on but before signing it off, I just want
to make the following comments.
Firstly, my reply to William was not meant to infer I disbelieved the
Bing carburettor has altitude leaning qualities. I know it does simply
by the fact that any carburettor on an 80 Hp engine that can get the
aircraft at near gross weight to 14,000 ft (ref Europa News in 1996
article - Kim Prout / Ivan Shaw) is certainly not running at full rich.
In relation to Williams suggestion, I felt and still do feel that the
reduced fuel consumption he spoke of is related more to the reduced
manifold pressure than the leaning effects of the carburettor. This is
why I suggested he try flying near sea level at around 13" MAP to
compare the fuel flow.
I have always found this argument about the Bing interesting because :-
1 I can refer to an article in another Europa News where the Europa's
creator Ivan Shaw categorically said that the Bing was NOT an altitude
compensating carburettor.
2 I am sure I also remember seeing somewhere that Rotax can offer an
altitude compensating carburettor.
It is probably splitting hairs but without further knowledge of these
carbs, I am wondering if the apparent altitude compensation is an
outcome of the Bing design rather than the design purpose if you can
understand what I am trying to say. IOW, although it does lean out with
Alt, does it lean the correct amount ???
Over and out !!
Kingsley
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nigel
Graham
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fwf Prices
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Nigel Graham"
<nigel_graham@btclick.com>
Hi William and Kingsley
The Rotax engines are fitted with Bing constant vacuum carburettors.
On these, the throttle slide and fuel control needle are not connected
to
the throttle cable (like the majority of motorcycle carbs except BMWs),
but
suspended under a rubber diaphragm - which is fed from a small venturi
into
the choke mouth.
The position of the throttle slide is therefore controlled by the volume
and
speed of the air passing over the venturi.
The throttle cable only operates a butterfly valve in behind the
throttle
slide. Open the butterfly, more air is allowed to pass and the throttle
slide rises, lifting the tapered fuel control needle and allowing more
fuel
in proportion to the volume of air passing through the carb.
The benefit for aviation applications is that as the density of air
drops
(when you go up) so the volume of air passing over the venturi will
begin to
drop and the slide will drop - automatically lowering the fuel control
needle. It doesn't "lean" the mixture as such - but attempts to keep the
correct stoiometric fuel/air ratio.
By operation, this is altitude compensating, but will also compensate
for
anything else that might reduce the air density - like hot or moist air.
Those trained to "lean off" as you fly through cloud really need do no
more
than "sit back, relax and enjoy the flight" as we are so often invited
to
do!
Apologies for the diversion, I'll let you all get back to squabbling
over
engine choice now while I slip back into "lurk" mode ;-)
Nigel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fwf Prices
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst"
<hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills" >
> At 13,000 ft with full throttle, my 912S fuel flow is 14 litres per
hour,
> whereas on take-off at full throttle it burns 28 litres per hour. I
> assume
> that proves there is an automatic leaning of the carbs.
Hello William,
With much respect I am wondering if it really does ? At 13,000 ft your
MAP
at full throttle is considerably less than at sea level with full
throttle.
I suspect if you fly at sea level with the same MAP as you are achieving
at
13,000 ft, your fuel flow will still be in the order of 14 LPH or most
likely even less.
If in fact you do have a MAP gauge, I would interested to hear the
result of
such a test.
Regards
Kingsley in Oz.
Message 5
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|
Subject: | Skyforce III GPS |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Brian Davies" <bdavies@dircon.co.uk>
I have used a Skyforce GPS for many years and have been very happy with it so I
have designed one into my panel- but I have delayed purchasing one until now.
Does anybody have any industry knowledge regarding plans to upgrade this unit?
It has been around for a number of years and I notice suppliers have started
discounting them for the first time. This could be a sign that a new model is
on its way.
Brian Davies, kit 454, first flight getting close!
Message 6
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Subject: | Skyforce III GPS |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Hi! Brian
Tracker IIIC units are updated at great expense by Bendix King Ltd. You
need to return the card and they will turn it round very promptly like
within 3 days.(and so they ought bearing the charge they make!)
'Phone No:- 01243 783763
regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian
Davies
Subject: Europa-List: Skyforce III GPS
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Brian Davies" <bdavies@dircon.co.uk>
I have used a Skyforce GPS for many years and have been very happy with
it so I have designed one into my panel- but I have delayed purchasing
one until now.
Does anybody have any industry knowledge regarding plans to upgrade this
unit? It has been around for a number of years and I notice suppliers
have started discounting them for the first time. This could be a sign
that a new model is on its way.
Brian Davies, kit 454, first flight getting close!
Message 7
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|
Subject: | Re: Skyforce III GPS |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "ivor.phillips" <ivor.phillips@ntlworld.com>
Brian
I purchased one at Flying for fun in july, The latest versions will now
track 12 satelites instead of 8 and have a larger database card, Not sure
about a replacement being in the wings
Ivor Phillips
XS486 London UK
CM Installed, rudder cables complete,
undercarriage fitted brakes working
flap tube fitted
wing lift pins fitted,tiebar fitted instrument
panel being finalised,
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Davies" <bdavies@dircon.co.uk>
Subject: Europa-List: Skyforce III GPS
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Brian Davies" <bdavies@dircon.co.uk>
>
> I have used a Skyforce GPS for many years and have been very happy with it
> so I have designed one into my panel- but I have delayed purchasing one
> until now.
>
> Does anybody have any industry knowledge regarding plans to upgrade this
> unit? It has been around for a number of years and I notice suppliers
> have started discounting them for the first time. This could be a sign
> that a new model is on its way.
>
> Brian Davies, kit 454, first flight getting close!
>
Message 8
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|
Subject: | Laddingford Fly-In |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Dari Sagar" <dari_sagar@hotmail.com>
David,
We are hoping to fly in to your strip on Sat. Could you send me the Lat and
Long co-ordinates to the strip? Thanks.
Regards,
Dari
>From: "David Watts" <dg.watts@virgin.net>
>Reply-To: europa-list@matronics.com
>To: "Europa Forum" <europa-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-In
>Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 20:01:28 +0100
>
>--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Watts" <dg.watts@virgin.net>
>
>Just a reminder that the Laddingford Fly-In East of Tonbridge in Kent is on
>for this coming Saturday the 24th. This is to celebrate(?!?!) Peter
>Kember's 60th birthday which is actually tomorrow the 22nd.
>
>There will be a barbeque going from around midday.
>
>Dave Watts
>G-BXDY
>
>
Message 9
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|
Subject: | Re: Skyforce III GPS |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
I think it's just because the competition are catching up at a fraction of
the price (eg Lowrance with 5" colour screen is c. 550UKP).
The cost of the database updates is a bit of a killer with the Skyforce;
Garmin updates are a small fraction of the price and can be done over the
Web.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Davies" <bdavies@dircon.co.uk>
Subject: Europa-List: Skyforce III GPS
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Brian Davies" <bdavies@dircon.co.uk>
>
> I have used a Skyforce GPS for many years and have been very happy with it
> so I have designed one into my panel- but I have delayed purchasing one
> until now.
>
> Does anybody have any industry knowledge regarding plans to upgrade this
> unit? It has been around for a number of years and I notice suppliers
> have started discounting them for the first time. This could be a sign
> that a new model is on its way.
>
> Brian Davies, kit 454, first flight getting close!
>
>
>
Message 10
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|
Subject: | Re: Laddingford Fly-In |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "ivor.phillips" <ivor.phillips@ntlworld.com>
Laddingford is 51` 11.48 north 000`24.90 east
Ivor Phillips
XS486 London UK
CM Installed, rudder cables complete,
undercarriage fitted brakes working
flap tube fitted
wing lift pins fitted,tiebar fitted instrument
panel being finalised,
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dari Sagar" <dari_sagar@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-In
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Dari Sagar" <dari_sagar@hotmail.com>
>
> David,
> We are hoping to fly in to your strip on Sat. Could you send me the Lat
> and
> Long co-ordinates to the strip? Thanks.
> Regards,
> Dari
>
>
>>From: "David Watts" <dg.watts@virgin.net>
>>Reply-To: europa-list@matronics.com
>>To: "Europa Forum" <europa-list@matronics.com>
>>Subject: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-In
>>Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 20:01:28 +0100
>>
>>--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Watts" <dg.watts@virgin.net>
>>
>>Just a reminder that the Laddingford Fly-In East of Tonbridge in Kent is
>>on
>>for this coming Saturday the 24th. This is to celebrate(?!?!) Peter
>>Kember's 60th birthday which is actually tomorrow the 22nd.
>>
>>There will be a barbeque going from around midday.
>>
>>Dave Watts
>>G-BXDY
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 11
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|
Subject: | Re: Laddingford Fly-In |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees" <peter.rees05@ntlworld.com>
Do we need to register to come to this fly-in? Is there a dedicated
frequency for Laddingford or is it just an overhead join?
We're woring on HI in the morning but it would be great to pop in and put
some names to faces.
Peter
Message 12
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|
Subject: | Re: Electric Buss Pix |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson <rowil@clara.net>
At 2005-09-21 22:52 -0400 DuaneFamly@aol.com wrote:
>Also, I seem to remember that someone made a reference guide that allowed
>you to look up a part number and find where in the manual it was
>called out. Is
>that still available?
Mike - yes, I made it, and it's on the Europa Club CD-ROM. Looking at
the record, you joined before that was being issued to all new
members, back in the days of paper.
The cross-reference was created in FileMaker Pro, but is distributed
also in SYLK, Excel and DBF formats. As I've recenlty moved up to the
"Developer" version of FileMaker (partly to help me get the
membership database cleaned up to pass on to the new Membership
Secretary) I now have the capability of making a run-time version of
the database that doesn't need the user to have FIleMaker installed
to use it. However, that capability is entirely theoretical until I
have done some serious reading of the manual, so don't hold your
breath for that option!
I'll send you a copy of the present version of the CD-ROM as soon as
I can; I'm off on holiday for a week soon so will try to get it out
before that.
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson (retiring) Europa Club Membership Secretary - email for info!
| Europa 435 G-ROWI (750 hours building) PFA #16532
| e-mail <memsec@europaclub.org.uk> website <www.europaclub.org.uk>
Message 13
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "N914RB" <n914rb@earthlink.net>
I'll be there probably Friday and Saturday. We need a way for all of the
Europa-philes to get together. List of cell #s might work so if you want to
list yours here, go ahead and once it's complete you can print and take
along.
Dan Bish
===============================
Copperstate Europa Builders/Flyers
Dan Bish 520.360.9747
Message 14
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Thomas Scherer" <thomas@scherer.com>
Good idea. I can be reached at (323) 404 4044.
<Thomas, N81EU>
----- Original Message -----
From: "N914RB" <n914rb@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Copperstate
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "N914RB" <n914rb@earthlink.net>
>
> I'll be there probably Friday and Saturday. We need a way for all of the
> Europa-philes to get together. List of cell #s might work so if you want to
> list yours here, go ahead and once it's complete you can print and take
> along.
>
> Dan Bish
>
> ===============================
> Copperstate Europa Builders/Flyers
>
> Dan Bish 520.360.9747
>
>
Message 15
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|
Subject: | Laddingford Fly-In |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Richard Iddon" <riddon@sent.com>
Is there any fuel at Laddingford?
Richard Iddon G-RIXS
>>
>>--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Watts" <dg.watts@virgin.net>
>>
>>Just a reminder that the Laddingford Fly-In East of Tonbridge in Kent
is
>>on
>>for this coming Saturday the 24th. This is to celebrate(?!?!) Peter
>>Kember's 60th birthday which is actually tomorrow the 22nd.
>>
>>There will be a barbeque going from around midday.
>>
>>Dave Watts
>>G-BXDY
>>
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: Electric Buss Pix |
--> Europa-List message posted by: SPurpura@aol.com
TRY ACS,THEY HAVE A GOOD ON IN THEIR CATALOG.
SAM N77EU
Message 17
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--> Europa-List message posted by: grroberts3@juno.com
I'll be at Copperstate the entire time manning a display. If those
attending think it useful, I can keep a Europa owner's sign-in and phone
number log. Look for the large dark helicopter and accompanying Arizona
Army National Guard shade tent on the tarmac, show center.
Gary R. Roberts
Kit A187
Tucson, AZ
On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:33:46 -0700 "N914RB" <n914rb@earthlink.net>
writes:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "N914RB" <n914rb@earthlink.net>
>
> I'll be there probably Friday and Saturday. We need a way for all of
> the
> Europa-philes to get together. List of cell #s might work so if you
> want to
> list yours here, go ahead and once it's complete you can print and
> take
> along.
>
> Dan Bish
>
> ===============================
> Copperstate Europa Builders/Flyers
>
> Dan Bish 520.360.9747
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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