---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 09/22/05: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:48 AM - Electric Buss Pix (DuaneFamly@AOL.COM) 2. 01:01 AM - Re: Fwf Prices (Kingsley Hurst) 3. 01:53 AM - Re: ENGINES! (Jan de Jong) 4. 04:47 AM - Re: Fwf Prices (R.C.Harrison) 5. 05:09 AM - Skyforce III GPS (Brian Davies) 6. 07:18 AM - Re: Skyforce III GPS (R.C.Harrison) 7. 07:43 AM - Re: Skyforce III GPS (ivor.phillips) 8. 11:17 AM - Re: Laddingford Fly-In (Dari Sagar) 9. 11:32 AM - Re: Skyforce III GPS (Duncan McFadyean) 10. 12:20 PM - Re: Laddingford Fly-In (ivor.phillips) 11. 01:17 PM - Re: Laddingford Fly-In (Peter Rees) 12. 01:34 PM - Re: Electric Buss Pix (Rowland Carson) 13. 01:34 PM - Re: Copperstate (N914RB) 14. 01:56 PM - Re: Copperstate (Thomas Scherer) 15. 02:14 PM - Re: Laddingford Fly-In (Richard Iddon) 16. 05:49 PM - Re: Electric Buss Pix (SPurpura@AOL.COM) 17. 06:35 PM - Re: Copperstate (grroberts3@juno.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:48:20 AM PST US From: DuaneFamly@AOL.COM Subject: Europa-List: Electric Buss Pix --> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com Good day all, Does anyone have pix of their electric buss? Build sites would be good. I'd like to see what others have done so I can get an idea of the orientation of all items. Also, I seem to remember that someone made a reference guide that allowed you to look up a part number and find where in the manual it was called out. Is that still available? Mike Duane A207A Redding, California XS Conventional Gear Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:01:44 AM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fwf Prices --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" Hello Nigel, Thank you for going to the trouble of explaining the Bing carburettor. I am certainly not a fully bottle on its finer workings I can assure you. Since most people seem to want this thread to cease, I don't want to bore everybody by carrying it on but before signing it off, I just want to make the following comments. Firstly, my reply to William was not meant to infer I disbelieved the Bing carburettor has altitude leaning qualities. I know it does simply by the fact that any carburettor on an 80 Hp engine that can get the aircraft at near gross weight to 14,000 ft (ref Europa News in 1996 article - Kim Prout / Ivan Shaw) is certainly not running at full rich. In relation to Williams suggestion, I felt and still do feel that the reduced fuel consumption he spoke of is related more to the reduced manifold pressure than the leaning effects of the carburettor. This is why I suggested he try flying near sea level at around 13" MAP to compare the fuel flow. I have always found this argument about the Bing interesting because :- 1 I can refer to an article in another Europa News where the Europa's creator Ivan Shaw categorically said that the Bing was NOT an altitude compensating carburettor. 2 I am sure I also remember seeing somewhere that Rotax can offer an altitude compensating carburettor. It is probably splitting hairs but without further knowledge of these carbs, I am wondering if the apparent altitude compensation is an outcome of the Bing design rather than the design purpose if you can understand what I am trying to say. IOW, although it does lean out with Alt, does it lean the correct amount ??? Over and out !! Kingsley Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nigel Graham Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fwf Prices --> Europa-List message posted by: "Nigel Graham" Hi William and Kingsley The Rotax engines are fitted with Bing constant vacuum carburettors. On these, the throttle slide and fuel control needle are not connected to the throttle cable (like the majority of motorcycle carbs except BMWs), but suspended under a rubber diaphragm - which is fed from a small venturi into the choke mouth. The position of the throttle slide is therefore controlled by the volume and speed of the air passing over the venturi. The throttle cable only operates a butterfly valve in behind the throttle slide. Open the butterfly, more air is allowed to pass and the throttle slide rises, lifting the tapered fuel control needle and allowing more fuel in proportion to the volume of air passing through the carb. The benefit for aviation applications is that as the density of air drops (when you go up) so the volume of air passing over the venturi will begin to drop and the slide will drop - automatically lowering the fuel control needle. It doesn't "lean" the mixture as such - but attempts to keep the correct stoiometric fuel/air ratio. By operation, this is altitude compensating, but will also compensate for anything else that might reduce the air density - like hot or moist air. Those trained to "lean off" as you fly through cloud really need do no more than "sit back, relax and enjoy the flight" as we are so often invited to do! Apologies for the diversion, I'll let you all get back to squabbling over engine choice now while I slip back into "lurk" mode ;-) Nigel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fwf Prices --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" > --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills" > > At 13,000 ft with full throttle, my 912S fuel flow is 14 litres per hour, > whereas on take-off at full throttle it burns 28 litres per hour. I > assume > that proves there is an automatic leaning of the carbs. Hello William, With much respect I am wondering if it really does ? At 13,000 ft your MAP at full throttle is considerably less than at sea level with full throttle. I suspect if you fly at sea level with the same MAP as you are achieving at 13,000 ft, your fuel flow will still be in the order of 14 LPH or most likely even less. If in fact you do have a MAP gauge, I would interested to hear the result of such a test. Regards Kingsley in Oz. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:53:55 AM PST US From: Jan de Jong Subject: Re: Europa-List: ENGINES! --> Europa-List message posted by: Jan de Jong Thanks for your insights. I will not go there... Jan de Jong >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" > >True, but oil cooling of valves is less efficient than water (912!) and with >no airflow over the oil cooler there is no cooling at all. In fact the >workshop manual for the R1100 prohibits idling of the engine in the workshop >for more than 5 minutes without forced cooling. > >Weight is much closer to (or exceeds) 90 kg when an engine mount and >exhaust is added. Then there's the bigger or second battery, additional (and >less efficient) cowl ducting, two fuel pumps etc. > >A promising engine for some applications, but not the Europa and I have to >say reluctantly (having been there) that the 912 does it better than the >BMW. > >Duncan McF. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jan de Jong" >Subject: Re: Europa-List: ENGINES! > > > >>> --> Europa-List message posted by: Jan de Jong >>> >>> They claim very efficient cooling at the exhaust valves using a >>> thermostatically controlled second oil circuit. Total weight is up at 80 >>> kg though. >>> >>> Jan de Jong >>> >> >> >>>>>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Which solves the starting problem and introduces a cooling problem i.e.no >>>>>cooling airflow below c.1700rpm when the clutch disengages. Useful for >>>>>float/boat planes though. >>>>> >>>>>Duncan McF. >>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>From: "Jan de Jong" >>>>>Subject: Re: Europa-List: ENGINES! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>> --> Europa-List message posted by: Jan de Jong >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> BMW developments are apparently still happening; using a centrifugal >>>>>>>>> clutch integrated with the gearbox. >>>>>>>>> http://www.spang-air.de/willkommen/BMW_Engine/bmw_engine.html >>>>>>>>> http://www.takeoff-ul.de/Motoren/motoren.html >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jan de Jong >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > > >________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:47:30 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fwf Prices --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! Kingsley Then even if the subject carries on it should have a final conclusion and tell us some facts because what you say is a very valid point and it would be of benefit for us all to know? If only to make performance better at 13,500 ft to escape any rotor downdraught effects. The Dane in his beautiful "Cosey" (?) who recently "pranged" after the Swiss Rally would probably been able to escape his demise of the downdraft at the end of his blind valley if his engine had a better high altitude power output. Isn't there a "Bing Specialist" lurking anywhere? Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300 SINGLE BING! -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kingsley Hurst Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fwf Prices --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" Hello Nigel, Thank you for going to the trouble of explaining the Bing carburettor. I am certainly not a fully bottle on its finer workings I can assure you. Since most people seem to want this thread to cease, I don't want to bore everybody by carrying it on but before signing it off, I just want to make the following comments. Firstly, my reply to William was not meant to infer I disbelieved the Bing carburettor has altitude leaning qualities. I know it does simply by the fact that any carburettor on an 80 Hp engine that can get the aircraft at near gross weight to 14,000 ft (ref Europa News in 1996 article - Kim Prout / Ivan Shaw) is certainly not running at full rich. In relation to Williams suggestion, I felt and still do feel that the reduced fuel consumption he spoke of is related more to the reduced manifold pressure than the leaning effects of the carburettor. This is why I suggested he try flying near sea level at around 13" MAP to compare the fuel flow. I have always found this argument about the Bing interesting because :- 1 I can refer to an article in another Europa News where the Europa's creator Ivan Shaw categorically said that the Bing was NOT an altitude compensating carburettor. 2 I am sure I also remember seeing somewhere that Rotax can offer an altitude compensating carburettor. It is probably splitting hairs but without further knowledge of these carbs, I am wondering if the apparent altitude compensation is an outcome of the Bing design rather than the design purpose if you can understand what I am trying to say. IOW, although it does lean out with Alt, does it lean the correct amount ??? Over and out !! Kingsley Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nigel Graham Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fwf Prices --> Europa-List message posted by: "Nigel Graham" Hi William and Kingsley The Rotax engines are fitted with Bing constant vacuum carburettors. On these, the throttle slide and fuel control needle are not connected to the throttle cable (like the majority of motorcycle carbs except BMWs), but suspended under a rubber diaphragm - which is fed from a small venturi into the choke mouth. The position of the throttle slide is therefore controlled by the volume and speed of the air passing over the venturi. The throttle cable only operates a butterfly valve in behind the throttle slide. Open the butterfly, more air is allowed to pass and the throttle slide rises, lifting the tapered fuel control needle and allowing more fuel in proportion to the volume of air passing through the carb. The benefit for aviation applications is that as the density of air drops (when you go up) so the volume of air passing over the venturi will begin to drop and the slide will drop - automatically lowering the fuel control needle. It doesn't "lean" the mixture as such - but attempts to keep the correct stoiometric fuel/air ratio. By operation, this is altitude compensating, but will also compensate for anything else that might reduce the air density - like hot or moist air. Those trained to "lean off" as you fly through cloud really need do no more than "sit back, relax and enjoy the flight" as we are so often invited to do! Apologies for the diversion, I'll let you all get back to squabbling over engine choice now while I slip back into "lurk" mode ;-) Nigel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fwf Prices --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" > --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills" > > At 13,000 ft with full throttle, my 912S fuel flow is 14 litres per hour, > whereas on take-off at full throttle it burns 28 litres per hour. I > assume > that proves there is an automatic leaning of the carbs. Hello William, With much respect I am wondering if it really does ? At 13,000 ft your MAP at full throttle is considerably less than at sea level with full throttle. I suspect if you fly at sea level with the same MAP as you are achieving at 13,000 ft, your fuel flow will still be in the order of 14 LPH or most likely even less. If in fact you do have a MAP gauge, I would interested to hear the result of such a test. Regards Kingsley in Oz. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:09:03 AM PST US From: "Brian Davies" Subject: Europa-List: Skyforce III GPS --> Europa-List message posted by: "Brian Davies" I have used a Skyforce GPS for many years and have been very happy with it so I have designed one into my panel- but I have delayed purchasing one until now. Does anybody have any industry knowledge regarding plans to upgrade this unit? It has been around for a number of years and I notice suppliers have started discounting them for the first time. This could be a sign that a new model is on its way. Brian Davies, kit 454, first flight getting close! ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:18:36 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Skyforce III GPS --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! Brian Tracker IIIC units are updated at great expense by Bendix King Ltd. You need to return the card and they will turn it round very promptly like within 3 days.(and so they ought bearing the charge they make!) 'Phone No:- 01243 783763 regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300 -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Davies Subject: Europa-List: Skyforce III GPS --> Europa-List message posted by: "Brian Davies" I have used a Skyforce GPS for many years and have been very happy with it so I have designed one into my panel- but I have delayed purchasing one until now. Does anybody have any industry knowledge regarding plans to upgrade this unit? It has been around for a number of years and I notice suppliers have started discounting them for the first time. This could be a sign that a new model is on its way. Brian Davies, kit 454, first flight getting close! ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:43:16 AM PST US From: "ivor.phillips" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Skyforce III GPS --> Europa-List message posted by: "ivor.phillips" Brian I purchased one at Flying for fun in july, The latest versions will now track 12 satelites instead of 8 and have a larger database card, Not sure about a replacement being in the wings Ivor Phillips XS486 London UK CM Installed, rudder cables complete, undercarriage fitted brakes working flap tube fitted wing lift pins fitted,tiebar fitted instrument panel being finalised, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Davies" Subject: Europa-List: Skyforce III GPS > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Brian Davies" > > I have used a Skyforce GPS for many years and have been very happy with it > so I have designed one into my panel- but I have delayed purchasing one > until now. > > Does anybody have any industry knowledge regarding plans to upgrade this > unit? It has been around for a number of years and I notice suppliers > have started discounting them for the first time. This could be a sign > that a new model is on its way. > > Brian Davies, kit 454, first flight getting close! > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:17:23 AM PST US From: "Dari Sagar" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-In --> Europa-List message posted by: "Dari Sagar" David, We are hoping to fly in to your strip on Sat. Could you send me the Lat and Long co-ordinates to the strip? Thanks. Regards, Dari >From: "David Watts" >Reply-To: europa-list@matronics.com >To: "Europa Forum" >Subject: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-In >Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 20:01:28 +0100 > >--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Watts" > >Just a reminder that the Laddingford Fly-In East of Tonbridge in Kent is on >for this coming Saturday the 24th. This is to celebrate(?!?!) Peter >Kember's 60th birthday which is actually tomorrow the 22nd. > >There will be a barbeque going from around midday. > >Dave Watts >G-BXDY > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:32:14 AM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Skyforce III GPS --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" I think it's just because the competition are catching up at a fraction of the price (eg Lowrance with 5" colour screen is c. 550UKP). The cost of the database updates is a bit of a killer with the Skyforce; Garmin updates are a small fraction of the price and can be done over the Web. Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Davies" Subject: Europa-List: Skyforce III GPS > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Brian Davies" > > I have used a Skyforce GPS for many years and have been very happy with it > so I have designed one into my panel- but I have delayed purchasing one > until now. > > Does anybody have any industry knowledge regarding plans to upgrade this > unit? It has been around for a number of years and I notice suppliers > have started discounting them for the first time. This could be a sign > that a new model is on its way. > > Brian Davies, kit 454, first flight getting close! > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:20:51 PM PST US From: "ivor.phillips" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-In --> Europa-List message posted by: "ivor.phillips" Laddingford is 51` 11.48 north 000`24.90 east Ivor Phillips XS486 London UK CM Installed, rudder cables complete, undercarriage fitted brakes working flap tube fitted wing lift pins fitted,tiebar fitted instrument panel being finalised, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dari Sagar" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-In > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Dari Sagar" > > David, > We are hoping to fly in to your strip on Sat. Could you send me the Lat > and > Long co-ordinates to the strip? Thanks. > Regards, > Dari > > >>From: "David Watts" >>Reply-To: europa-list@matronics.com >>To: "Europa Forum" >>Subject: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-In >>Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 20:01:28 +0100 >> >>--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Watts" >> >>Just a reminder that the Laddingford Fly-In East of Tonbridge in Kent is >>on >>for this coming Saturday the 24th. This is to celebrate(?!?!) Peter >>Kember's 60th birthday which is actually tomorrow the 22nd. >> >>There will be a barbeque going from around midday. >> >>Dave Watts >>G-BXDY >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:17:23 PM PST US From: "Peter Rees" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-In --> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees" Do we need to register to come to this fly-in? Is there a dedicated frequency for Laddingford or is it just an overhead join? We're woring on HI in the morning but it would be great to pop in and put some names to faces. Peter ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:20 PM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: Re: Europa-List: Electric Buss Pix --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson At 2005-09-21 22:52 -0400 DuaneFamly@aol.com wrote: >Also, I seem to remember that someone made a reference guide that allowed >you to look up a part number and find where in the manual it was >called out. Is >that still available? Mike - yes, I made it, and it's on the Europa Club CD-ROM. Looking at the record, you joined before that was being issued to all new members, back in the days of paper. The cross-reference was created in FileMaker Pro, but is distributed also in SYLK, Excel and DBF formats. As I've recenlty moved up to the "Developer" version of FileMaker (partly to help me get the membership database cleaned up to pass on to the new Membership Secretary) I now have the capability of making a run-time version of the database that doesn't need the user to have FIleMaker installed to use it. However, that capability is entirely theoretical until I have done some serious reading of the manual, so don't hold your breath for that option! I'll send you a copy of the present version of the CD-ROM as soon as I can; I'm off on holiday for a week soon so will try to get it out before that. regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson (retiring) Europa Club Membership Secretary - email for info! | Europa 435 G-ROWI (750 hours building) PFA #16532 | e-mail website ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:23 PM PST US From: "N914RB" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Copperstate --> Europa-List message posted by: "N914RB" I'll be there probably Friday and Saturday. We need a way for all of the Europa-philes to get together. List of cell #s might work so if you want to list yours here, go ahead and once it's complete you can print and take along. Dan Bish =============================== Copperstate Europa Builders/Flyers Dan Bish 520.360.9747 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:23 PM PST US From: "Thomas Scherer" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Copperstate --> Europa-List message posted by: "Thomas Scherer" Good idea. I can be reached at (323) 404 4044. ----- Original Message ----- From: "N914RB" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Copperstate > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "N914RB" > > I'll be there probably Friday and Saturday. We need a way for all of the > Europa-philes to get together. List of cell #s might work so if you want to > list yours here, go ahead and once it's complete you can print and take > along. > > Dan Bish > > =============================== > Copperstate Europa Builders/Flyers > > Dan Bish 520.360.9747 > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:14:16 PM PST US From: "Richard Iddon" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Laddingford Fly-In --> Europa-List message posted by: "Richard Iddon" Is there any fuel at Laddingford? Richard Iddon G-RIXS >> >>--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Watts" >> >>Just a reminder that the Laddingford Fly-In East of Tonbridge in Kent is >>on >>for this coming Saturday the 24th. This is to celebrate(?!?!) Peter >>Kember's 60th birthday which is actually tomorrow the 22nd. >> >>There will be a barbeque going from around midday. >> >>Dave Watts >>G-BXDY >> ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:49:05 PM PST US From: SPurpura@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Electric Buss Pix --> Europa-List message posted by: SPurpura@aol.com TRY ACS,THEY HAVE A GOOD ON IN THEIR CATALOG. SAM N77EU ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:45 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Copperstate From: grroberts3@juno.com --> Europa-List message posted by: grroberts3@juno.com I'll be at Copperstate the entire time manning a display. If those attending think it useful, I can keep a Europa owner's sign-in and phone number log. Look for the large dark helicopter and accompanying Arizona Army National Guard shade tent on the tarmac, show center. Gary R. Roberts Kit A187 Tucson, AZ On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:33:46 -0700 "N914RB" writes: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "N914RB" > > I'll be there probably Friday and Saturday. We need a way for all of > the > Europa-philes to get together. List of cell #s might work so if you > want to > list yours here, go ahead and once it's complete you can print and > take > along. > > Dan Bish > > =============================== > Copperstate Europa Builders/Flyers > > Dan Bish 520.360.9747 > > > > > > > >