---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/11/05: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:40 AM - Re: Rough Running (BEBERRY@aol.com) 2. 12:52 AM - Re: Re: Rough Running (BEBERRY@aol.com) 3. 12:57 AM - Re: Rough Running (BEBERRY@aol.com) 4. 01:13 AM - Angle of attack (paul atkinson) 5. 08:17 AM - Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations (Bruce) 6. 09:02 AM - Rough running 914 (Erich Trombley) 7. 09:14 AM - Re: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations (SteveD) 8. 09:56 AM - Re: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations (fred leinberger) 9. 09:58 AM - Re: Angle of Attack (josok) 10. 10:09 AM - Re: Rough running 914 (BEBERRY@aol.com) 11. 10:29 AM - Re: protecting the glass (Paul Stewart) 12. 11:19 AM - Re: Expanding Foam (rtstone22) 13. 11:43 AM - Re: Angle of attack (R.C.Harrison) 14. 01:32 PM - Re: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations (Bruce) 15. 02:23 PM - xs wings - boding root fairings. (steve v.) 16. 02:39 PM - Re: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations (Bruce) 17. 03:03 PM - Re: Expanding Foam (steve v.) 18. 11:46 PM - Re: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations (David Joyce) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:40:59 AM PST US From: BEBERRY@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rough Running --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com Cliff- Thanks very much for the tip on carb synch. I will try to do as you suggest. I will let you know what happens. Patrick ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:52:11 AM PST US From: BEBERRY@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: Rough Running --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com Hello Patric You said that you recent did a full refurbishment of your 914. Was a major overhaul done to it? First off was it running OK before you did refurbishment? Check that the carb cables are rotating freely at the carb, and as Cliff mentioned check with a set of gages. you need to disconnect the cross balance tube, a good place to connect gages......etc..... Dear Ron, Many thanks for your comprehemsive and very helpful list of suggestions. Most of the things which you list have been done but there are some which I need to look at again in the light of your comments. I will let you know if and when the problem is solved and what had to be done. Thanks again. Patrick ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:57:29 AM PST US From: BEBERRY@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rough Running --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com Thanks Bob, I am not engineering qualified although competent enough at 'nuts and bolts'. I will try to look at the slipper clutch and see if any fault can be found. Thanks again. Patrick ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:13:52 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Angle of attack From: "paul atkinson" --> Europa-List message posted by: "paul atkinson" Time: 07:05:52 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Europa-List: Angle of Attack --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Hi all, After flying my mono wheel for 340 hours with various C of G's and weights I an still surprised at how differently the aircraft behaves on landing. I find that the amount of power needed in the flair can be from very little to quite a lot if I want to bring it over the numbers at 55 knots with not too much sink, and although I am getting good at judging the various situations, occasionally I still get it wrong and I am rewarded with a bounce on landing. I was wondering if anyone on the forum has an AoA fitted to their Europa, and are they finding the lift reserve a good indicator to help get that "perfect 10" on every touch down ? If anyone has some experience I would be interested in hearing from them. Thanks, Paul - N378PJ Paul I have no experience with the Europa but have some with Aoa. In my case it made no difference at all to the quality of my landings in the vertical sense :-(. Where it really helped though was to give the confidence to fly at lower speeds near the ground. You will find that with a lighter airplane your approach speed will be lower, giving you a consistent margin above the stall which will I hope mean that the airplane will behave more consistently from the flare to touchdown. Your touch down point will be more predictable, and if you touchdown with little or no lift reserve you reduce the chances of bouncing. That was my experience flying an old Fokker, and I hope it will apply to my Europa. Regards Paul Atkinson ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:13 AM PST US From: "Bruce" Subject: Europa-List: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bruce" Greetings All, I have accumulated the pieces necessary to install fuel drains and a gascolator. The gascolator is an Andair 375 which was obtained some years ago when they only had that one size. The tank components for the fuel drains are from Bob Berube at Flight Crafters in Florida. The two tank drain valves as well as the gascolator drain valve are Saf-Air CAV-110s. I should mention that I am using Bob's conventional gear, but the location of the main gear wheels provides for an aircraft-attitude on the ground that is near-identical to the monowheel. Over the past few years, I've seen numerous e-mails relating from other builders regarding the mounting location they decided upon for the drains and gascolator and now I'd like to get some feed back -- especially from those builders who have used their drains and have had to maintain their gascolators. Here are some of the scenarios that I've seen or read about. 1. The drains were located directly on the tank outlets with a large access hatch that is shared with the gascolator? The advantage of this configuration is that it is probably the easiest to install and the large hatch also allows you to easy access to maintain the hose clamps on the tank outlets. However, when the wings are attached, this location will be under the wings and perhaps difficult to get to. I also would think that reaching into that hatch and removing the gascolator bowel for inspection would be difficult and would subject the user to getting fuel in their eyes, or in their ears as one writer reported. I've also experienced leaking (occasional drips) fuel drains in the past and wondered if having these drains located behind a hatch is problematic. Also, this location of the drains appears to place them higher than the bottom of the fuel tank (perhaps not an issue on a trike). 2. The drains are located behind the wings? This mounts them even lower to the ground, but you don't have to crawl under the wing to access them. This location requires a bit of additional tubing and some additional fittings (which I already have). Someone suggested mounting them on the 'fuel filler' side of the fuselage for easier access. That seems like a good idea but where did they mount the gascolator. 3. Gascolator mounted under the cowling? Traditional location for most airplanes that I've flown. But I'm also planning on utilizing a fuel-flow sensor which I understand is ideally located after the gascolator. I would have to configure the cowling to somehow support easy access to the gascolator bowl which perhaps requires another hatch, or special consideration to the way the cowling is mounted and attached so that it is easily removable. 4. Gascolator mounted in the tunnel? Since I don't have that big mono-wheel, there is plenty of room. And since I have electric flaps, the manual flap drive mechanism is absent from the tunnel. Also this would make it easy to locate the fuel-flow sensor after the gascolator. Access to the gascolator would have to be provided from the top of the tunnel but this is not a problem since I have the cut-down tunnel which is approved for non-monowheel Europas. Sorry for the length of this e-mail, but thanks in advance for your ideas. Regards, Bruce XS142 Tracy, California ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:02:09 AM PST US From: "Erich Trombley" Subject: Europa-List: Rough running 914 --> Europa-List message posted by: "Erich Trombley" Patrick, In addition to all the other suggestions you might want to check the magneto connections. I have found that the bullet connections on the mags get corroded/oxidized over time which leads to rough running at idle. At 4100 rpm the engine would be running sooth enough, however, when performing a mag check the engine would really start to run rough even though the rpm drop was within specs. This is an easy check and worth the time to make. Good luck. Erich Trombley N28ET Classic Mono 914 I seem to be having a run of problems lately. Having done a complete refurbishment of my 914 I have spent some time trying to get the engine to run smoothly, without success. After warm up it will run perfectly at above say 4000 rpm and at idling but in between it is VERY roungh, The whole airframe shakes and it is on 3 cylinders at best. I have got perfect running at high revs and have got the engine and prop running spot on at the recommended 5200 static. I have done lengthy runs at high revs (until CHT's start to complain), in the hope of clearing the problem, but no luck. Plugs have been changed for new, carbs thoroughly cleaned + jets etc., and fuel filters. I have now run out of ideas and would welcome any suggestions of where to go next. Patrick Patrick, In addition to all the other suggestions you might want to check the magneto connections. I have found that the bullet connections on the mags get corroded/oxidized over time which leads to rough running at idle. At 4100 rpm the engine would be running sooth enough, however, when performing a mag check the engine would really start to run rough even though the rpm drop was within specs. This is an easy check and worth the time to make. Good luck. Erich Trombley N28ET Classic Mono 914 I seem to be having a run of problems lately. Having done a complete refurbishment of my 914 I have spent some time trying to get the engine to run smoothly, without success. After warm up it will run perfectly at above say 4000 rpm and at idling but in between it is VERY roungh, The whole airframe shakes and it is on 3 cylinders at best. I have got perfect running at high revs and have got the engine and prop running spot on at the recommended 5200 static. I have done lengthy runs at high revs (until CHT's start to complain), in the hope of clearing the problem, but no luck. Plugs have been changed for new, carbs thoroughly cleaned + jets etc., and fuel filters. I have now run out of ideas and would welcome any suggestions of where to go next. Patrick ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:14:18 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: RE: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations From: "SteveD" --> Europa-List message posted by: "SteveD" http://www.europaowners.org/FuelDrains http://www.europaowners.org/album44 Picture worth a thousand words.... Note the extensions on the fuel drain lines in the tank to get to the tail dragger water.. Later, Steved. ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:56:00 AM PST US From: "fred leinberger" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations --> Europa-List message posted by: "fred leinberger" what is the cut down tunnel which is approved for non-monowheel Europas pete ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce" Subject: Europa-List: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bruce" > > Greetings All, > > I have accumulated the pieces necessary to install fuel drains and a > gascolator. The gascolator is an Andair 375 which was obtained some years > ago when they only had that one size. The tank components for the fuel > drains are from Bob Berube at Flight Crafters in Florida. The two tank > drain > valves as well as the gascolator drain valve are Saf-Air CAV-110s. I > should > mention that I am using Bob's conventional gear, but the location of the > main gear wheels provides for an aircraft-attitude on the ground that is > near-identical to the monowheel. > > Over the past few years, I've seen numerous e-mails relating from other > builders regarding the mounting location they decided upon for the drains > and gascolator and now I'd like to get some feed back -- especially from > those builders who have used their drains and have had to maintain their > gascolators. > > Here are some of the scenarios that I've seen or read about. > > 1. The drains were located directly on the tank outlets with a large > access > hatch that is shared with the gascolator? The advantage of this > configuration is that it is probably the easiest to install and the large > hatch also allows you to easy access to maintain the hose clamps on the > tank > outlets. However, when the wings are attached, this location will be > under > the wings and perhaps difficult to get to. I also would think that > reaching > into that hatch and removing the gascolator bowel for inspection would be > difficult and would subject the user to getting fuel in their eyes, or in > their ears as one writer reported. I've also experienced leaking > (occasional drips) fuel drains in the past and wondered if having these > drains located behind a hatch is problematic. Also, this location of the > drains appears to place them higher than the bottom of the fuel tank > (perhaps not an issue on a trike). > > 2. The drains are located behind the wings? This mounts them even lower > to > the ground, but you don't have to crawl under the wing to access them. > This > location requires a bit of additional tubing and some additional fittings > (which I already have). Someone suggested mounting them on the 'fuel > filler' side of the fuselage for easier access. That seems like a good > idea > but where did they mount the gascolator. > > 3. Gascolator mounted under the cowling? Traditional location for most > airplanes that I've flown. But I'm also planning on utilizing a fuel-flow > sensor which I understand is ideally located after the gascolator. I > would > have to configure the cowling to somehow support easy access to the > gascolator bowl which perhaps requires another hatch, or special > consideration to the way the cowling is mounted and attached so that it is > easily removable. > > 4. Gascolator mounted in the tunnel? Since I don't have that big > mono-wheel, there is plenty of room. And since I have electric flaps, the > manual flap drive mechanism is absent from the tunnel. Also this would > make > it easy to locate the fuel-flow sensor after the gascolator. Access to > the > gascolator would have to be provided from the top of the tunnel but this > is > not a problem since I have the cut-down tunnel which is approved for > non-monowheel Europas. > > Sorry for the length of this e-mail, but thanks in advance for your ideas. > > Regards, > Bruce > XS142 > Tracy, California > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:58:49 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: RE: Angle of Attack From: "josok" 0.64 REPLY_TO_EMPTY Reply-To: is empty --> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" Since i am a very green pilot, and do only dream about flying my Europa, please do not take this attempt too serious. I am flying the club's Supercub, and especially on skies it asks for a fixed, 60 miles final, and because of the white-out, you only set the descent rate at about 100 ft/min. The variable in this quotation is the settle down point of course. But since there are no numbers on these very long and very white runways, it does not matter. In my dreams i land the Europa the same way. Nail the speed on final, and set the descent rate at an agreeable speed. Why would this work or not work? Regards, Jos Okhuijsen ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:39 AM PST US From: BEBERRY@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rough running 914 --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com I seem to be having a run of problems lately. Having done a complete refurbishment of my 914 I have spent some time trying to get the engine to run smoothly, without success............ Hi Erich and many thanks for your interesting tip. I will try that next time I am at the aeroplane. This afternoon I found a slight discrepancy between the throttle openings (left fully closed when right was very slightly open - about enough to put a finger nail in). Fixed that and then had to run the aircraft into shelter as it started to pour with rain - no cowlings on etc.so no chance for an engine run I do not know if this will make any difference but various people have said that Carb. balance is critical. Patrick ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:29:34 AM PST US From: Paul Stewart Subject: Re: Europa-List: protecting the glass --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Stewart Thanks for the responses Paul G-GIDY ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:19:22 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: RE: Expanding Foam From: "rtstone22" 0.64 REPLY_TO_EMPTY Reply-To: is empty --> Europa-List message posted by: "rtstone22" Oregon Spruce does indeed now have the patterns for Europa seats. I purchased them and had a local upholstery shop cover them for me. The results are terrific in my opinion. The cushioning ability of the foam is outstanding - it may save a spine some day. (I can do a dead drop from standing onto my knees on the seat bottom over concrete with no pain or shock felt.) The fit and comfort are great. Bob Stone 7854M - 50 hours Classic Monowheel ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:43:32 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Angle of attack --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! Paul I don't suppose Mono is any different to trike but what you are probably looking for is the same for all aircraft especially the slippery kind. Unless I'm mistaken you are probably landing in gusty wind conditions and unless you get completely reliable steady wind on the nose you will always get this phenomenon. IMHO you are looking for an impossible "wind ahead" indicator and lots of us would give a fortune for such an instrument! I have a bad habit in coming in low and regularly needing a blast from the prop to get a hold over the quick sink if the gust drops. You need to practice dead stick landings from a high aspect on long runways regulating your speed and therefore the lift and sink from the glide slope of the a/c. I say mine is a bad habit because if the "donkey" should decide to "jack in" with a low approach you have no "blast facility" at your command! I'm no specialist and at 600 hours on type still find myself very much the learner, but I'm sure you must keep the stick in mind as if it were a one way ratchet never relaxing the rearward pressure and in the event of a small bounce a quick rearward snatch can take the "pain" out of the next one. IMHO by the time you have adjusted because the AOA indicator has told you, you will have "cocked up". Also you must get the aircraft correctly trimmed on "base" with full flaps down, don't leave it 'till "final". I will now sit back and wait for the real specialists to possibly tell me I'm writing a load of rubbish ! Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300 trike. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of paul atkinson Subject: Europa-List: Angle of attack --> Europa-List message posted by: "paul atkinson" Time: 07:05:52 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Europa-List: Angle of Attack --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Hi all, After flying my mono wheel for 340 hours with various C of G's and weights I an still surprised at how differently the aircraft behaves on landing. I find that the amount of power needed in the flair can be from very little to quite a lot if I want to bring it over the numbers at 55 knots with not too much sink, and although I am getting good at judging the various situations, occasionally I still get it wrong and I am rewarded with a bounce on landing. I was wondering if anyone on the forum has an AoA fitted to their Europa, and are they finding the lift reserve a good indicator to help get that "perfect 10" on every touch down ? If anyone has some experience I would be interested in hearing from them. Thanks, Paul - N378PJ Paul I have no experience with the Europa but have some with Aoa. In my case it made no difference at all to the quality of my landings in the vertical sense :-(. Where it really helped though was to give the confidence to fly at lower speeds near the ground. You will find that with a lighter airplane your approach speed will be lower, giving you a consistent margin above the stall which will I hope mean that the airplane will behave more consistently from the flare to touchdown. Your touch down point will be more predictable, and if you touchdown with little or no lift reserve you reduce the chances of bouncing. That was my experience flying an old Fokker, and I hope it will apply to my Europa. Regards Paul Atkinson ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:32:55 PM PST US From: "Bruce" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bruce" Hi Fred, I have about a dozen pictures or more but am only sending one to you. This is not my Europa, but mine looks similar. One of these is an XS, the other appears to be a Classic. The ones I selected are from Flight Crafters, the Europa gurus in Florida. If you want more pictures, or cutting instructions, I'll try to dig them up. This is approved by Europa, but I don't think the PFA has approved it in the UK yet. Regards, Bruce -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fred leinberger Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations --> Europa-List message posted by: "fred leinberger" what is the cut down tunnel which is approved for non-monowheel Europas pete ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:23:13 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: xs wings - boding root fairings. From: "steve v." 0.64 REPLY_TO_EMPTY Reply-To: is empty --> Europa-List message posted by: "steve v." hi, i am shortly - in the next few days , to bond the wing root fairings to the wings , i will be "doing them" in place with the wings rigged, my qustion is, do i need to apply any upward preassure at the wing tips ?, if so, how much ? , thanks, steve #573 ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:08 PM PST US From: "Bruce" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bruce" All, Sorry about the previous message. I know better than to reply with photo attachments to the list. Bruce -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bruce" Hi Fred, I have about a dozen pictures or more but am only sending one to you. This is not my Europa, but mine looks similar. One of these is an XS, the other appears to be a Classic. The ones I selected are from Flight Crafters, the Europa gurus in Florida. If you want more pictures, or cutting instructions, I'll try to dig them up. This is approved by Europa, but I don't think the PFA has approved it in the UK yet. Regards, Bruce -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fred leinberger Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations --> Europa-List message posted by: "fred leinberger" what is the cut down tunnel which is approved for non-monowheel Europas pete ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:03:27 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: RE: Expanding Foam From: "steve v." 0.64 REPLY_TO_EMPTY Reply-To: is empty --> Europa-List message posted by: "steve v." hi , "Oregon Spruce does indeed now have the patterns for Europa seats", do you have any contact info for these people - or web address ? , thanks , steve #573. ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:09 PM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" Bruce, I may be missing something but I can't see the logic of having fuel drains and a Gascolator with fuel drain in the bottom of it if you fit the Gascolator at the low point. I have a single mini gascolator with drain plug fitted behind the wing of my mono, with access flap like a cowling flap - works well for me. Alternative access (to make removing bowl easy) to gascolator (& fuel pumps & lo fuel pressure sensor) is under baggage bay panel. Regards, David, G-XSDJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce" > > I have accumulated the pieces necessary to install fuel drains and a > gascolator.