Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:26 AM - Angle of Attack (Graham Singleton)
2. 03:01 AM - Re: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations (William Mills)
3. 05:40 AM - Re: Angle of Attack (Fergus Kyle)
4. 08:07 AM - rear nav light (danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk)
5. 09:16 AM - Re: Expanding Foam (Dan Bish)
6. 10:13 AM - Re: Angle of attack (Richard Iddon)
7. 11:56 AM - Re: Angle of Attack (josok)
8. 11:56 AM - Re: Re: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations (Bruce)
9. 12:36 PM - Radiator position (Brian Hutchinson)
10. 01:47 PM - Re: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations (Duncan McFadyean)
11. 02:10 PM - Re: Re: Re: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations (SteveD)
12. 04:19 PM - Re: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations (Kingsley Hurst)
13. 04:22 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations (Paul McAllister)
14. 04:25 PM - Re: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations (Paul McAllister)
15. 08:08 PM - Re: Re: Angle of Attack (Fergus Kyle)
16. 08:26 PM - Re: Angle of Attack (Steve Crimm)
17. 09:43 PM - Re: Angle of Attack (David DeFord)
Message 1
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
From: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
--> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
Since i am a very green pilot, and do only dream about flying my Europa, please
do not take this attempt too serious. I am flying the club's Supercub, and especially
on skies it asks for a fixed, 60 miles final, and because of the white-out,
you only set the descent rate at about 100 ft/min. The variable in this
quotation is the settle down point of course. But since there are no numbers
on these very long and very white runways, it does not matter. In my dreams i
land the Europa the same way. Nail the speed on final, and set the descent rate
at an agreeable speed. Why would this work or not work?
Jos
In the flare, or rather when very close to the ground,last foot, the tailplane
loses the effect of the downwash from the wing. This is ground effect of course.
The result is that unless you do something about it, the nose will drop and
you will bounce. As soon as you feel this nose drop pull the stick back quickly
to prevent it.
Simplest way is to feel for the ground with the tailwheel and as soon as it touches
stick hard back. The plane can't pitch up so it just quits flying.
Graham
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills" <william@wrmills.plus.com>
Hi David,
The fuel is drawn off at a point above the bottom of the tank, so you could
accumulate half a litre or so of water before it is able to enter the fuel
pipe system and then to your gascolator. Also with tail draggers and monos
the tank bottoms are sloping away from the outlets so that will increase the
amount of water capable of being in the tank when on the ground. If you
have fuel drains, the pipes go to the back lowest corner of the tanks, so
you can draw off almost all the water that has accumulated in the tank.
Hope that helps.
Best wishes,
William
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce"
> <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
>
> Bruce, I may be missing something but I can't see the logic of having
> fuel
> drains and a Gascolator with fuel drain in the bottom of it if you fit the
> Gascolator at the low point. I have a single mini gascolator with drain
> plug fitted behind the wing of my mono, with access flap like a cowling
> flap - works well for me. Alternative access (to make removing bowl easy)
> to gascolator (& fuel pumps & lo fuel pressure sensor) is under baggage
> bay
> panel.
> Regards, David, G-XSDJ
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bruce" <bruce@justbruce.com>
>>
>> I have accumulated the pieces necessary to install fuel drains and a
>> gascolator.
>
>
> --
> 12/10/2005
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Angle of Attack |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Singleton" <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
Subject: Europa-List: Angle of Attack
| --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton
<graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
|
| From: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
|
| --> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
|
| Since i am a very green pilot, and do only dream about flying my Europa,
please
| do not take this attempt too serious. I am flying the club's Supercub, and
especially
| on skies it asks for a fixed, 60 miles final, and because of the
white-out,
| you only set the descent rate at about 100 ft/min. The variable in this
| quotation is the settle down point of course. But since there are no
numbers
| on these very long and very white runways, it does not matter. In my
dreams i
| land the Europa the same way. Nail the speed on final, and set the descent
rate
| at an agreeable speed. Why would this work or not work?
|
| Jos
| In the flare, or rather when very close to the ground,last foot, the
tailplane loses the effect of the downwash from the wing. This is ground
effect of course. The result is that unless you do something about it, the
nose will drop and you will bounce. As soon as you feel this nose drop pull
the stick back quickly to prevent it.
| Simplest way is to feel for the ground with the tailwheel and as soon as
it touches stick hard back. The plane can't pitch up so it just quits
flying.
| Graham
Jos,
Graham has it! Another aspect is that you may have different
weights on approach - passenger, luggage, full tank - and the difference
between that and solo, no baggage and tanks toward empty - can be a
significant percentage of the total weight. Like most aircraft the Europa
exhibits very different drag characterisitics at extreme weights. You want
to know what approach speed will give you Graham's 'feel-for-the-ground'
values at round-out. That comes with care and research. But the approach
speed does not stay fixed as with a Supercub on skis. Because the Europa is
slick and smooth it floats when too fast. The reverse is even
worse..........
Good luck, and use a long runway to practice.
Ferg
Message 4
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk" <danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk>
Thanks for the replies re- rear nav light. As this is where most
builders are fitting theirs, I will be doing the same.
Cheers Danny
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Expanding Foam |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Dan Bish" <DanBish@norwalktucson.com>
Hi Bob,
How much are they asking for the Europa package?
Thanks,
Dan Bish
Kit A144 - Tucson, AZ
Message 6
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Richard Iddon" <riddon@sent.com>
Paul,
On a slight tangent but still relevant, Mark Burton (Tri-gear G-NEAT) is
developing a 'talking air speed indicator' which relays your airspeed
via your headset leaving you free to concentrate on your approach with
your head out of the cockpit. Sounds like a great idea to me and a good
aid to getting the approach right.
His company is Smart Avionics and the gadget is to be known as an Air
Speed Speaker (ASS) hence a 'smartass'
Don't know how near he is to putting the gadget on sale but details can
be found on http://www.smartavionics.com/
Richard Iddon
G-RIXS
Subject: Europa-List: Angle of attack
--> Europa-List message posted by: "paul atkinson"
<paul@theatkinsons.demon.co.uk>
Hi all,
After flying my mono wheel for 340 hours with various C of G's and
weights
I an
still surprised at how differently the aircraft behaves on landing.
I find that the amount of power needed in the flair can be from very
little to
quite a lot if I want to bring it over the numbers at 55 knots with not
too much
sink, and although I am getting good at judging the various situations,
occasionally
I still get it wrong and I am rewarded with a bounce on landing.
I was wondering if anyone on the forum has an AoA fitted to their
Europa,
and are
they finding the lift reserve a good indicator to help get that "perfect
10"
on every touch down ? If anyone has some experience I would be
interested
in
hearing from them.
Thanks,
Paul - N378PJ
Message 7
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| Subject: | RE: Angle of Attack |
0.64 REPLY_TO_EMPTY Reply-To: is empty
--> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
Hi Ferg and all,
Sorry for my slow comprehension, please try to be patient with me. I see the point
in Graham's message. In ground effect, the effect of the tailplane being washed
out, and a quick pull to get the tail wheel on the ground. That should be
no problem, if the plane is in the right nose-up attitude eh? That right attitude,
or angle of attack, is depending on air-speed only, and the sink rate is
governed by weight and power applied, as far as i understood so far. Would
it help to do slow flight at altitude to get an idea of the power needed at 55
knots?
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
----------------
Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/
Message 8
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| Subject: | RE: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Bruce" <bruce@justbruce.com>
Steve,
Thanks for sending me the link to your photos on the EuropaOwners site.
Your solution appears worthy of being imitated by others. I like how you
made the drains accessible, nearly flush with the skin, and yet the adjacent
gascolator is still accessible through a hatch.
Q: What material did you use to pot the fuel drains into the pvc pipe? It
looks like you might have used white silicon caulking.
Q: What is the device with the red-top just a bit forward of the fuel pump?
In picture 15 I see wires running into it, and the fuel hose is laying on
it, but perhaps not connected to it.
Q: Are you still using the two under-seat fuel filters as well as the
gascolator?
Thanks again for answering my question.
Regards,
Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of SteveD
Subject: Europa-List: RE: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations
--> Europa-List message posted by: "SteveD" <Post2Forum@comcast.net>
http://www.europaowners.org/FuelDrains
http://www.europaowners.org/album44
Picture worth a thousand words.... Note the extensions on the fuel drain
lines in the tank to get to the tail dragger water..
Later,
Steved.
----------------
Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/
Message 9
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| Subject: | Radiator position |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Brian Hutchinson" <hutch@hangarbout.fsnet.co.uk>
Hi all,
I'm making a bit of a meal of trying to position the radiators and cooling duct
metalwork. I've found the cooling duct pieces supplied not to be an acceptable
fit so I'm trying to establish the optimum position of the radiators, with
the intention of fabricating my own aluminium duct. The governing factor seems
to be the front coolant radiator left hose (C04), feeding down adjacent to,
and rear of the rotax engine frame. With it in the ideal location there is 1
1/4 inches between the middle of the exhaust and the front of the hose. Can anyone
please provide me with a bit of confidence that this measurement is typical.
I'm just a little concerned that the rubber hose is a bit close to the hot
bit! This is a 912S XS, with the 'pear' shaped exhaust.
Thanks
Brian Hutchinson
Getting keen again... after one of my numerous quiet periods, still with 90% to
go!!!
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
I find that the Saf-Air CAV-110s are a pain. They like to leak after use.
I have replaced the O-ring with one made of Viton, which has helped, but am
put off using them for fear that one day (especially when on a trip) they
will prove impossible to reseat.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce" <bruce@justbruce.com>
Subject: Europa-List: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bruce" <bruce@justbruce.com>
>
> Greetings All,
>
> I have accumulated the pieces necessary to install fuel drains and a
> gascolator. The gascolator is an Andair 375 which was obtained some years
> ago when they only had that one size. The tank components for the fuel
> drains are from Bob Berube at Flight Crafters in Florida. The two tank
> drain
> valves as well as the gascolator drain valve are Saf-Air CAV-110s. I
> should
> mention that I am using Bob's conventional gear, but the location of the
> main gear wheels provides for an aircraft-attitude on the ground that is
> near-identical to the monowheel.
>
> Over the past few years, I've seen numerous e-mails relating from other
> builders regarding the mounting location they decided upon for the drains
> and gascolator and now I'd like to get some feed back -- especially from
> those builders who have used their drains and have had to maintain their
> gascolators.
>
> Here are some of the scenarios that I've seen or read about.
>
> 1. The drains were located directly on the tank outlets with a large
> access
> hatch that is shared with the gascolator? The advantage of this
> configuration is that it is probably the easiest to install and the large
> hatch also allows you to easy access to maintain the hose clamps on the
> tank
> outlets. However, when the wings are attached, this location will be
> under
> the wings and perhaps difficult to get to. I also would think that
> reaching
> into that hatch and removing the gascolator bowel for inspection would be
> difficult and would subject the user to getting fuel in their eyes, or in
> their ears as one writer reported. I've also experienced leaking
> (occasional drips) fuel drains in the past and wondered if having these
> drains located behind a hatch is problematic. Also, this location of the
> drains appears to place them higher than the bottom of the fuel tank
> (perhaps not an issue on a trike).
>
> 2. The drains are located behind the wings? This mounts them even lower
> to
> the ground, but you don't have to crawl under the wing to access them.
> This
> location requires a bit of additional tubing and some additional fittings
> (which I already have). Someone suggested mounting them on the 'fuel
> filler' side of the fuselage for easier access. That seems like a good
> idea
> but where did they mount the gascolator.
>
> 3. Gascolator mounted under the cowling? Traditional location for most
> airplanes that I've flown. But I'm also planning on utilizing a fuel-flow
> sensor which I understand is ideally located after the gascolator. I
> would
> have to configure the cowling to somehow support easy access to the
> gascolator bowl which perhaps requires another hatch, or special
> consideration to the way the cowling is mounted and attached so that it is
> easily removable.
>
> 4. Gascolator mounted in the tunnel? Since I don't have that big
> mono-wheel, there is plenty of room. And since I have electric flaps, the
> manual flap drive mechanism is absent from the tunnel. Also this would
> make
> it easy to locate the fuel-flow sensor after the gascolator. Access to
> the
> gascolator would have to be provided from the top of the tunnel but this
> is
> not a problem since I have the cut-down tunnel which is approved for
> non-monowheel Europas.
>
> Sorry for the length of this e-mail, but thanks in advance for your ideas.
>
> Regards,
> Bruce
> XS142
> Tracy, California
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: RE: RE: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "SteveD" <Post2Forum@comcast.net>
Q: What material did you use to pot the fuel drains into the pvc pipe?
Epoxo 88 5 minute epoxy from Wicks:
http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_cat.php/subid=5209/index.html
The smaller lines to the drains are based on Terry Seaver's comments and testing.
Q: What is the device with the red-top just a bit forward of the fuel pump?
Total fuse flow sensor from AF 2500 engine monitor.
http://www.advanced-control-systems.com/Monitors/monitors.htm
Q: Are you still using the two under-seat fuel filters as well as the
gascolator?
Yes, I am not comfortable using the gascolator as a filter. Will it filter fuel?
Yes. Was it design to? I'm not sure. I have not done this yet but I think that
the surface area of that small pleated filter is larger than the area of the
gascolator screen. Even if its not, I like being able to switch to a clean filter
if I ever sputter into silence.
While were on the subject of clean fuel, I removed my fuel level probe the other
day. I peeked into the small hole, into my "sealed clean tank" port side. Dust!
fine white fiberglass dust! on the port side. Checked my sealed, duct taped,
fuel inlet and vent holes, they still looked good. The dust is on the port
side, I can't imagine what is on the starboard. I intended to flush the system,
but now I will be very vigilant.
Chat Later,
Steved
----------------
Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/
Message 12
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| Subject: | Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
> I find that the Saf-Air CAV-110s are a pain. They like to leak after
use.
I have replaced the O-ring with one made of Viton, which has helped, but
am
put off using them for fear that one day (especially when on a trip)
they
will prove impossible to reseat.
Duncan,
When, in a previous life I flew almost every day, each time I checked
the fuel, I always pulled downwards on the fitting giving it a slight
turn as I did so. Doing this helps it seal and is the reason I have
left mine proud of the fuselage.
Regs
Kingsley
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
Bruce,
I have a few pictures under Jan 2001 at http://europa363.versadev.com/ that
you might want to look at.
Paul
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Drains and Gascolator Locations |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
Duncan,
I have to agree. I no longer use the drain on the bottom of my gascolator
for the same reason, I take the bowl off instead.
Paul
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Angle of Attack |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
----- Original Message -----
From: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
Subject: Europa-List: RE: Angle of Attack
| --> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
|
| Hi Ferg and all,
| Sorry for my slow comprehension, please try to be patient with me. I see the
point in Graham's message. In ground effect, the effect of the tailplane being
washed out, and a quick pull to get the tail wheel on the ground. That should
be no problem, if the plane is in the right nose-up attitude eh? That right attitude,
or angle of attack, is depending on air-speed only, and the sink rate
is governed by weight and power applied, as far as i understood so far. Would
it help to do slow flight at altitude to get an idea of the power needed at
55 knots? Regards, Jos Okhuijsen
Wrong, Jos:
Forgive me (I don't get to say it very often - she won't let me).
Actually the plane flies ONLY because it has the correct angle of attack. It stalls
at the same ANGLE when the weight is the same, whether it's in ten G pull
at 200 knots or at the top of the loop at 70knots - the angle is always the same
(at the same weight). Add weight and the angle changes.
Therefore we should not be memorising airspeeds for each maoeuvre near
the stall like we did for years, but watching an angle indicator in the windshield.
The airspeed will vary with various parameters BUT the angle will stay
the same. The US navy land on carriers ONLY with the AoA indicator. Each weight
and CofG position gives a different angle, but the airspeed might be the
same for other reasons.
You can use airspeed but you should be thinking Angle. For each angle
there is a 'feel' - she's wobbly, or mushing, or jiggling, or the elevator
gets light, or snatching at the controls or something which tells you by feel
that you are approaching the stall. You want to be at the stall at touchdown but
no earlier! The way to do that is by flying safely as close to the stall as
close to the ground as you can - but it must be approached warily, carefully,
gingerly and in small stages. In my humble opinion the easiest and safest way
is with an accurate A0A indicator
Cheers, Ferg
PS: There are two places to stall your treasure - either at 1 inch or
at 10,000 feet - so stall her high and often to get the 'feel'.
PPS: Happy to discuss further if you want to...........
Message 16
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|
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Steve Crimm" <steve.crimm@stephenscott.com>
Flight,
Over the last couple of weeks I have been taking glider lessons for my
commercial FAA glider rating in a Blanik L-13. Training now
completed and just waiting for an examiner for a check ride. This aircraft
is a mono-wheel like the Europa. Flying this aircraft is very simple on the
mono-wheel in all take off and landing configurations. Learning how to soar
for any length of time, now that is a precise science all by itself.
Balancing on the single wheel until it has lost all lift and as they like,
keeping it off the tail wheel as long as possible is very simple. Am I way
off base or is the landing and take off characteristic in these aircraft
that much different, so far as the mono-wheel characteristics or very
similar. And the Blanik only has a 10kt crosswind limitation. Also keeping
in mind the engine vs. no engine differences.
And one really fun piece of this training is speed brakes. Having never
flown an aircraft with speed brakes, these are great, you can almost hang it
on final approach with a steep angle. Lots of fun. I believe this
experience will make me a much better Europa pilot so far as balancing on
this basketball/wheel and ground handling. Wish I had speed brakes.
Thanks,
Steve
N42AH
A058
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fergus Kyle
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Angle of Attack
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Singleton" <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
Subject: Europa-List: Angle of Attack
| --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton
<graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
|
| From: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
|
| --> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
|
| Since i am a very green pilot, and do only dream about flying my Europa,
please
| do not take this attempt too serious. I am flying the club's Supercub, and
especially
| on skies it asks for a fixed, 60 miles final, and because of the
white-out,
| you only set the descent rate at about 100 ft/min. The variable in this
| quotation is the settle down point of course. But since there are no
numbers
| on these very long and very white runways, it does not matter. In my
dreams i
| land the Europa the same way. Nail the speed on final, and set the descent
rate
| at an agreeable speed. Why would this work or not work?
|
| Jos
| In the flare, or rather when very close to the ground,last foot, the
tailplane loses the effect of the downwash from the wing. This is ground
effect of course. The result is that unless you do something about it, the
nose will drop and you will bounce. As soon as you feel this nose drop pull
the stick back quickly to prevent it.
| Simplest way is to feel for the ground with the tailwheel and as soon as
it touches stick hard back. The plane can't pitch up so it just quits
flying.
| Graham
Jos,
Graham has it! Another aspect is that you may have different
weights on approach - passenger, luggage, full tank - and the difference
between that and solo, no baggage and tanks toward empty - can be a
significant percentage of the total weight. Like most aircraft the Europa
exhibits very different drag characterisitics at extreme weights. You want
to know what approach speed will give you Graham's 'feel-for-the-ground'
values at round-out. That comes with care and research. But the approach
speed does not stay fixed as with a Supercub on skis. Because the Europa is
slick and smooth it floats when too fast. The reverse is even
worse..........
Good luck, and use a long runway to practice.
Ferg
Message 17
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "David DeFord" <davedeford@comcast.net>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton
> Simplest way is to feel for
> the ground with the tailwheel and as soon as it touches stick
> hard back. The plane can't pitch up so it just quits flying.
I have seen this advice from quite a few pilots, but I wonder if any of them
fly the XS, which sits at a shallower angle on the ground, and is more than
willing to keep flying at that attitude. In addition, the long tailwheel
spring is quite flexible, and can be easily bent downward (increasing the
angle of attack) with modest force on the tailplane. I tried the quick
"stick full back" method a few times back a couple of years ago, and was
typically rewarded with a re-launch. I find it better to wait a second or
two after touchdown before easing the stick back. There is still plenty of
rudder authority at that point, so you don't immediately need the strong
force on the tailwheel (but don't count on that as the airplane slows down
too much). While the airplane can be landed guaranteed bounce-free from a
very nose-high attitude, it feels better to me to keep the nose down enough
that I don't lose sight of the far end of the runway. What to other XS
pilots do?
Dave DeFord
N135TD
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