Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:08 AM - without prejudice (Graham Singleton)
2. 04:33 AM - Re: (Without Prejudice) (skyrider2)
3. 05:57 AM - Re: Re: (Without Prejudice) (Fred Fillinger)
4. 06:09 AM - Re: mounting base for finger brake cylinder (William Daniell)
5. 06:30 AM - Re: Re: (Without Prejudice) (David Hillam)
6. 06:42 AM - Re: without prejudice ()
7. 07:22 AM - Re: Re: (Without Prejudice) (Alan Burrows)
8. 08:03 AM - November Kit Planes article (Paul Boulet)
9. 08:12 AM - Re: Re: (Without Prejudice) (lmorgan822@aol.com)
10. 08:22 AM - Re: Re: (Without Prejudice) (lmorgan822@aol.com)
11. 08:39 AM - New us Distributor (Al Stills)
12. 08:42 AM - Re: November Kit Planes article (Al Stills)
13. 08:43 AM - Custom built Panel (Cliff Shaw)
14. 11:41 AM - Throttle Cables (Fergus Kyle)
15. 12:11 PM - Re: Throttle Cables (BEBERRY@aol.com)
16. 12:27 PM - Re: Throttle Cables (Gerry Holland)
17. 01:02 PM - keith wilson (Rowland Carson)
18. 01:13 PM - (Bill and Sue)
19. 01:34 PM - Re: Re: (Without Prejudice) (R.C.Harrison)
20. 02:09 PM - Re: Re: (Without Prejudice) (Paul Bunting)
21. 02:24 PM - Re: Throttle Cables (Fergus Kyle)
22. 02:52 PM - Re: (Duncan McFadyean)
23. 02:53 PM - Re: keith wilson (Duncan McFadyean)
24. 03:53 PM - Re: keith wilson (lmorgan822@AOL.COM)
Message 1
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Subject: | without prejudice |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
Carl Pattinson wrote:
When a company gets into financial trouble there is a fine dividing line
between going on when the company is losing money and pulling the plug
before it is too late. The demise of the Rover group is a prime example. If
managers/ directors pulled the plug at the first sign of financial
difficulty there wouldnt be many companies left in business.
Carl
Keith was told by his own financial director, in writing, that they were
trading illegally 18 months before the final crinch. She then resigned
from the company.
A year after this KW telephoned Niels Koch in Denmark to send the money
for kit number 1002, it was ready for despatch, it was never sent and
indeed could not have been, most suppliers had refused to continue until
they were paid, Slingsby among them. Keith knew this. He continued to
defraud customers for another 6 months.
The administrators were equally dishonest imho. Customers' cheques were
cashed AFTER the winding up in the full knowledge that nothing would be
supplied. It might well be legal but it certainly isn't just or honest.
They were very quick to destroy all evidence of fraud apparently on the
grounds that no one was going to pay them to investigate.
Yet another example of the imorality of the English legal system.
Graham
Message 2
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Subject: | RE: (Without Prejudice) |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "skyrider2" <skyrider2@earthlink.net>
I have to call BS on this Carl. Where has it been written or stated that
Keith Wilson has offered to compensate anyone for their loss? Actions speak
louder than words. He's had almost a year and a half, so list all of the
folks that he's paid back for funds paid to him for parts and planes, in
good faith, that were never received. I certainly haven't received a refund
check or my windscreens. And no, my address and other contact information
has not changed. So Keith, if you're reading this, when can I expect my
refund? Or my windshield and door glass?
As for personal vendettas, each of the items KW cheated all of us out of,
represent a portion of our lives. We had to work for the money that we paid
Keith, and that work took time. Something we can never get back. And
something that KW will owe us for for the rest of his life. Or at least
until he pays us. You say we don't have a "right" to carry out a vendetta
against KW. Well, I'll tell you this, I've got over 46,000 reasons
"invested" in my right to call Keith on the carpet. He deceived us from the
very beginning and he attempts to continue to this day.
This "time" or "episode" in Europa's history (or at least Keith's history)
will remain open indefinately. I, unlike you, don't have a short memory.
And he most certainly should not be "earning" any money in the aviation
field. Buyers Beware !!!!
I too, would like a shot at him in a US court. So Keith, the gauntlet's
been thrown down, wanna pick it up?
Ya'll fly safely and think of us ground bound libelers from time to time,
Doug Lawton
A245
NE Georgia
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice)
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson"
<carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Why are you disgusted that Keith Wilson and the PFA have put their side of
the story.
There is a premise in this country, that a person is innocent until proven
guilty. Despite all the bad feeling and the fact that people have lost a lot
of money there is no proof that it is Keiths fault. Is there any evidence
that he funded a lavish lifestyle at the companys/ customers expense? The
worst you can accuse him is of bad management and even that would be
difficult to prove. Its a sad fact of life but aircraft manufacturers seem
to get into financial trouble all the time. The list of companies that have
gone out of business is endless.
Companies go to the wall every day and people lose large sums as a result of
it. Quite often the directors involved lose large sums too and sometimes
their homes. I know this because I nearly lost my home and 300,000 in
exactly the same way. At the end of the day I still lost a large sum of
money and I am still repaying the debt, 5 years after the event. Keith
Wilson has personally lost similar sums of money. The idea that he has
walked away scott free is total rubbish.
When a company gets into financial trouble there is a fine dividing line
between going on when the company is losing money and pulling the plug
before it is too late. The demise of the Rover group is a prime example. If
managers/ directors pulled the plug at the first sign of financial
difficulty there wouldnt be many companies left in business.
Whatever Keith is alleged to have done, he is entitled to defend himself and
to earn a living for himself and his family.
I understand that people have had their dreams shattered and lost
considerable amounts of money but all these things can be rebuilt with time.
What has happened does not give anyone the right to conduct a personal
vendetta against Keith or to insist that the PFA dosen't use his work. The
fact that he is offered to make the recompense should be applauded and it is
time this episode in the Europa's history was brought to a close and Keith
was allowed to get on with his life.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
PS: Just in case people want to accuse me of being biased I will tell you of
my connection with Keith. Before he took the reins at EML I did business
with him in his capacity of Aviation Photographer and I never had reason to
question his personal integrity. I have had no dealings with him since the
closure of EML nor is there any prospect of doing so as my company has
closed. I have spoken to him once since that time to hear his side of the
story, which in my opinion is only fair. I have also spoken to Graham Newby
of the PFA.
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: RE: (Without Prejudice) |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "skyrider2"
<skyrider2@earthlink.net>
>
> I too, would like a shot at him in a US court. So Keith,
> the gauntlet's been thrown down, wanna pick it up?
>
A quick google suggests that "insolvent trading" as a crime
is a British thing, popping up also in Australia and NZ, but
not in the U.S. However, legal articles outside the U.S.
cite that it's typically very difficult to prove insolvency
in a small company as being known beyond a reasonable doubt
to the defendant, and further that his actions were done
with criminal intent. As a civil matter in the U.S., on a
failed UK company, the case is a loser alone on the issue of
enforceability of a judgment, and there may be no "U.S.
nexus" for our courts' jurisdiction anyway.
Reg,
Fred F.
Message 4
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Subject: | mounting base for finger brake cylinder |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "William Daniell" <wdaniell@etb.net.co>
Cliff,
Looking through your pics I see the instrument panel looks like its make of
ply? Also a nifty (that means clever in American) bow shape to the lower
rim of the panel - more room I suppose.
How did you do this?
Will
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cliff Shaw
Subject: Re: Europa-List: mounting base for finger brake cylinder
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" <flyinggpa@comcast.net>
Karl
You have built a very interesting "Tunnel" I remember looking at it and
thinking "why did I not think of doing that " I wish I had.
The dream I have now is to make doors on the belly of my trygear that open
up like a bomb-bay. It would be fun to see the "security people" look at my
plane then.
Cliff Shaw
1041 Euclid ave.
Edmonds, WA 98020
425 776 5555
http://www.europaowners.org/WileE
----- Original Message -----
From: KARL HEINDL
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 3:13 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting base for finger brake cylinder
--> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" <kheindl@msn.com>
Will,
No, I beg to dffer from Cliff. I do all interior tunnel maintenance from
the
top ( why does everybody like to crawl underneath the fuselage ?). The
brake
cylinder assembly is mounted on a removable plate, and I have a removable
lid over the rest of the tunnel, so I can use it also for storage, and in
my
case aerial photography through a window in the bottom of the fuselage.
Karl
>From: "William Daniell" <wdaniell@etb.net.co>
>Reply-To: europa-list@matronics.com
>To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting base for finger brake cylinder
>Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:48:35 -0500
>
>--> Europa-List message posted by: "William Daniell"
<wdaniell@etb.net.co>
>
>Ah so the secret is longer levers?
>
>I am thinking is that you mount everything within the tunnel with two
slits
>for the levers and no other openings on the top of the tunnel - all
>maintenance done from the belly.
>
>Is this right?
>
>Will
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KARL HEINDL
>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting base for finger brake cylinder
>
>--> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" <kheindl@msn.com>
>
>
>Will,
>
>Yes, I did originally, but with limited success, mainly because I used
the
>original levers with short extensions. Whatever cylinders you use, you
need
>long and strong handles. The original gokart cylinders were certainly
less
>troublesome otherwise. Myself and other builders had to fiddle around
quite
>a bit with the Jamar dual cylinder before it worked properly.
>
>Karl
>
>
> >From: "William Daniell" <wdaniell@etb.net.co>
> >Reply-To: europa-list@matronics.com
> >To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting base for finger brake cylinder
> >Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:31:57 -0500
> >
> >--> Europa-List message posted by: "William Daniell"
><wdaniell@etb.net.co>
> >
> >Has anyone mounted the foot brake cylinders as finger brakes?
> >
> >Will
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> >[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of G-IANI
> >To: europa-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting base for finger brake cylinder
> >
> >--> Europa-List message posted by: "G-IANI" <g-iani@ntlworld.com>
> >
> >Bruce
> >
> >You are right the Europa brake cylinder is the Jamar US2002X
> >
> >I will send you direct a photo of my installation bracket. Have a look
>and
> >I can send you more details if needed.
> >
> >On the levers I would buy the Europa parts. They carry quite a load so
> >strength and hardness are important as well as size.
> >
> >
> >Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
> >Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
> >e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
> > or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
> >
> >
>
>
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: RE: (Without Prejudice) |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Hillam" <sqwk7000@cotswoldwireless.co.uk>
Hi All,
We have heard a lot of evidence over the last few days that seems to be
pretty unequivical. Has this evidence been presented to the police in the
UK? I would assume that as the alleged offence took place in Yorkshire, it
is the Yorkshire Constabulary that should receive it.
If this has already been done, what was their response?
David
G-SHSH
> A quick google suggests that "insolvent trading" as a crime
> is a British thing, popping up also in Australia and NZ, but
> not in the U.S. However, legal articles outside the U.S.
> cite that it's typically very difficult to prove insolvency
> in a small company as being known beyond a reasonable doubt
> to the defendant, and further that his actions were done
> with criminal intent. As a civil matter in the U.S., on a
> failed UK company, the case is a loser alone on the issue of
> enforceability of a judgment, and there may be no "U.S.
> nexus" for our courts' jurisdiction anyway.
>
> Reg,
> Fred F.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: without prejudice |
--> Europa-List message posted by: <peter.rees05@ntlworld.com>
I contacted the PFA magazine (Brian Hope) and Graham Newby directly to express
my opionion in the matter - please see the responses below - as I said in earlier
postings, action will only come from a collective action, preferably via the
Europa club. Please not the bit from Brian Hope where he says he is willing
to publish an official response from the Europa Club to Keiths letter
Peter
Peter
Whilst I appreciate and sympathise with your feelings may I make a couple of points:-
1) When this issue was last discussed I agreed that I would raise it at both EC
level and with the Europa Club. This I did and both agreed that we should carry
on using Keiths photos where needed in the interests of producing the magazine.
See the Europa Flyer June 2005.
2) Peter Kember, the Europa Club President, suggested to Keith that he write the
letter in PF and set up the trust. Since the rally Peter and Keith have been
passing drafts backwards and forwards and Peter agreed the final wording as published.
To say that Brian has overstepped his remit therefore is, in my view, unfair.
Please do ring me here at Turweston if you would like to discuss the matter further.
Best regards
Graham
Hello Peter, this debate has been batted around on at least two previous occasions.
The last such occasion was when the Executive Committee agreed, I'm pretty
sure unanimously, that KW could continue providing his services to Popular Flying.
That decision was relayed to senior members of the Europa Club, who accepted
it, and it was reported in the Europa Club magazine.
I see no reason to go over that ground again.
as far as the Trust Fund is concerned, Peter Kember has been in discussion with
KW about it since the PFA Rally and was fully aware, and approving of the content
of the letter.
I am quite prepared to publish an official Europa Club response to the letter
and its proposals (provided it does not open the PFA to any form of legal challenge),
but I see no benefit to opening up the argument on the
rights and wrongs of KW's involvement with Popular Flying.
Regards, Brian Hope.
>
> From: Graham Singleton <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
> Date: 2005/10/26 Wed AM 10:07:44 BST
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: without prejudice
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
>
> Carl Pattinson wrote:
>
> When a company gets into financial trouble there is a fine dividing line
> between going on when the company is losing money and pulling the plug
> before it is too late. The demise of the Rover group is a prime example. If
> managers/ directors pulled the plug at the first sign of financial
> difficulty there wouldnt be many companies left in business.
>
> Carl
> Keith was told by his own financial director, in writing, that they were
> trading illegally 18 months before the final crinch. She then resigned
> from the company.
> A year after this KW telephoned Niels Koch in Denmark to send the money
> for kit number 1002, it was ready for despatch, it was never sent and
> indeed could not have been, most suppliers had refused to continue until
> they were paid, Slingsby among them. Keith knew this. He continued to
> defraud customers for another 6 months.
> The administrators were equally dishonest imho. Customers' cheques were
> cashed AFTER the winding up in the full knowledge that nothing would be
> supplied. It might well be legal but it certainly isn't just or honest.
> They were very quick to destroy all evidence of fraud apparently on the
> grounds that no one was going to pay them to investigate.
> Yet another example of the imorality of the English legal system.
> Graham
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
-----------------------------------------
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Message 7
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Subject: | RE: (Without Prejudice) |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows" <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
Are we just simply moaning amongst ourselves here or are we passing
these comments to Graham Newby, because if not, then the PFA will simply
think we have gone away. I for one have no problem with him taking
pictures and giving them to the PFA for free. My very real problem would
be if he ever managed to get himself back into a position of authority
within a company, because if we allow him to walk back into favour with
the PFA as though nothing has happened, then that's the next step for
him. He is probably one of the most incompetent managers I have ever
come across, and believe me in 25yrs of running companies and working as
a business advisor for the DTI, I have come across plenty in my time.
For this reason its important that we make our feelings plain to the PFA
and continue to do so, because if not he will re-appear somewhere else
in the next couple of years blaming everyone but himself and then we
could all be sorry, so PLEASE guys be prepared to stand up and be
counted. How would you feel if he popped up again running an aircraft
magazine that you wanted to sell your aircraft in, or worst still a
parts company when you really needed that part.. Would you really be
happy to give him your credit card details..!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David
Hillam
Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice)
--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Hillam"
--> <sqwk7000@cotswoldwireless.co.uk>
Hi All,
We have heard a lot of evidence over the last few days that seems to be
pretty unequivical. Has this evidence been presented to the police in
the UK? I would assume that as the alleged offence took place in
Yorkshire, it is the Yorkshire Constabulary that should receive it.
If this has already been done, what was their response?
David
G-SHSH
> A quick google suggests that "insolvent trading" as a crime is a
> British thing, popping up also in Australia and NZ, but not in the
> U.S. However, legal articles outside the U.S. cite that it's
> typically very difficult to prove insolvency in a small company as
> being known beyond a reasonable doubt to the defendant, and further
> that his actions were done with criminal intent. As a civil matter in
> the U.S., on a failed UK company, the case is a loser alone on the
> issue of enforceability of a judgment, and there may be no "U.S.
> nexus" for our courts' jurisdiction anyway.
>
> Reg,
> Fred F.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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Subject: | November Kit Planes article |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Boulet <possibletodo@yahoo.com>
Hi All;
has anyone seen the November letters to the editor
from KitPlanes magazine? There's a letter stating
Europa is alive and well and that Kim Prout will soon
be handling USA distribution- this is the first I've
heard of it- Kim has been pretty silent on this board
for a long time
Paul Boulet, N914PB
"converting mono to tri- have 10 hours flown off so
far"
Malibu, CA
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: RE: (Without Prejudice) |
--> Europa-List message posted by: lmorgan822@aol.com
I haven't been contacted either on any compensation. None of my information has
changed. Doug, all of your points are well stated. KW needs to be completely
out of the aviation business, and wherever he pops up, he needs to be exposed.
He is the British equivalent of Jim Bede.
-----Original Message-----
From: skyrider2 <skyrider2@earthlink.net>
Subject: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice)
--> Europa-List message posted by: "skyrider2" <skyrider2@earthlink.net>
I have to call BS on this Carl. Where has it been written or stated that
Keith Wilson has offered to compensate anyone for their loss? Actions speak
louder than words. He's had almost a year and a half, so list all of the
folks that he's paid back for funds paid to him for parts and planes, in
good faith, that were never received. I certainly haven't received a refund
check or my windscreens. And no, my address and other contact information
has not changed. So Keith, if you're reading this, when can I expect my
refund? Or my windshield and door glass?
As for personal vendettas, each of the items KW cheated all of us out of,
represent a portion of our lives. We had to work for the money that we paid
Keith, and that work took time. Something we can never get back. And
something that KW will owe us for for the rest of his life. Or at least
until he pays us. You say we don't have a "right" to carry out a vendetta
against KW. Well, I'll tell you this, I've got over 46,000 reasons
"invested" in my right to call Keith on the carpet. He deceived us from the
very beginning and he attempts to continue to this day.
This "time" or "episode" in Europa's history (or at least Keith's history)
will remain open indefinately. I, unlike you, don't have a short memory.
And he most certainly should not be "earning" any money in the aviation
field. Buyers Beware !!!!
I too, would like a shot at him in a US court. So Keith, the gauntlet's
been thrown down, wanna pick it up?
Ya'll fly safely and think of us ground bound libelers from time to time,
Doug Lawton
A245
NE Georgia
From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice)
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson"
<carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
Why are you disgusted that Keith Wilson and the PFA have put their side of
the story.
There is a premise in this country, that a person is innocent until proven
guilty. Despite all the bad feeling and the fact that people have lost a lot
of money there is no proof that it is Keiths fault. Is there any evidence
that he funded a lavish lifestyle at the companys/ customers expense? The
worst you can accuse him is of bad management and even that would be
difficult to prove. Its a sad fact of life but aircraft manufacturers seem
to get into financial trouble all the time. The list of companies that have
gone out of business is endless.
Companies go to the wall every day and people lose large sums as a result of
it. Quite often the directors involved lose large sums too and sometimes
their homes. I know this because I nearly lost my home and 300,000 in
exactly the same way. At the end of the day I still lost a large sum of
money and I am still repaying the debt, 5 years after the event. Keith
Wilson has personally lost similar sums of money. The idea that he has
walked away scott free is total rubbish.
When a company gets into financial trouble there is a fine dividing line
between going on when the company is losing money and pulling the plug
before it is too late. The demise of the Rover group is a prime example. If
managers/ directors pulled the plug at the first sign of financial
difficulty there wouldnt be many companies left in business.
Whatever Keith is alleged to have done, he is entitled to defend himself and
to earn a living for himself and his family.
I understand that people have had their dreams shattered and lost
considerable amounts of money but all these things can be rebuilt with time.
What has happened does not give anyone the right to conduct a personal
vendetta against Keith or to insist that the PFA dosen't use his work. The
fact that he is offered to make the recompense should be applauded and it is
time this episode in the Europa's history was brought to a close and Keith
was allowed to get on with his life.
Carl Pattinson
G-LABS
PS: Just in case people want to accuse me of being biased I will tell you of
my connection with Keith. Before he took the reins at EML I did business
with him in his capacity of Aviation Photographer and I never had reason to
question his personal integrity. I have had no dealings with him since the
closure of EML nor is there any prospect of doing so as my company has
closed. I have spoken to him once since that time to hear his side of the
story, which in my opinion is only fair. I have also spoken to Graham Newby
of the PFA.
Message 10
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|
Subject: | Re: RE: (Without Prejudice) |
--> Europa-List message posted by: lmorgan822@aol.com
I will do anything I can to keep him out of the industry. We don't need him.
I would suggest an 1 month boycot of the magazine. That would get their attention
if they didn't sell anything for a month or two. There are plenty of other
pubs to get your information from. Sounds like the magazine is trying to,
if not cover up for him, shield him.
-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Burrows <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice)
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows" <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
Are we just simply moaning amongst ourselves here or are we passing
these comments to Graham Newby, because if not, then the PFA will simply
think we have gone away. I for one have no problem with him taking
pictures and giving them to the PFA for free. My very real problem would
be if he ever managed to get himself back into a position of authority
within a company, because if we allow him to walk back into favour with
the PFA as though nothing has happened, then that's the next step for
him. He is probably one of the most incompetent managers I have ever
come across, and believe me in 25yrs of running companies and working as
a business advisor for the DTI, I have come across plenty in my time.
For this reason its important that we make our feelings plain to the PFA
and continue to do so, because if not he will re-appear somewhere else
in the next couple of years blaming everyone but himself and then we
could all be sorry, so PLEASE guys be prepared to stand up and be
counted. How would you feel if he popped up again running an aircraft
magazine that you wanted to sell your aircraft in, or worst still a
parts company when you really needed that part.. Would you really be
happy to give him your credit card details..!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David
Hillam
Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice)
--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Hillam"
--> <sqwk7000@cotswoldwireless.co.uk>
Hi All,
We have heard a lot of evidence over the last few days that seems to be
pretty unequivical. Has this evidence been presented to the police in
the UK? I would assume that as the alleged offence took place in
Yorkshire, it is the Yorkshire Constabulary that should receive it.
If this has already been done, what was their response?
David
G-SHSH
> A quick google suggests that "insolvent trading" as a crime is a
> British thing, popping up also in Australia and NZ, but not in the
> U.S. However, legal articles outside the U.S. cite that it's
> typically very difficult to prove insolvency in a small company as
> being known beyond a reasonable doubt to the defendant, and further
> that his actions were done with criminal intent. As a civil matter in
> the U.S., on a failed UK company, the case is a loser alone on the
> issue of enforceability of a judgment, and there may be no "U.S.
> nexus" for our courts' jurisdiction anyway.
>
> Reg,
> Fred F.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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|
Subject: | New us Distributor |
0.12 X_PRIORITY_HIGH Sent with 'X-Priority' set to high
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Al Stills" <astills@senecawholesale.com>
Hi all,
I read a letter from I believe Andy (if memory serves me right) to one of the US
magazines (A rebuttal in the letters to the Editor) and then in this months
Kitplanes showing Ken Prout in California as the US Distrubutor. Does anyone know
if Ken is "now back in the fold".
Al Stills
N625AZ
Message 12
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|
Subject: | November Kit Planes article |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Al Stills" <astills@senecawholesale.com>
Paul
You and I must be on the same wavelength. I just posted the same question. I read
a letter to the editor a month or so ago to one of the magazines that said
Ken and the company were talking about it. Let's hoe its true.
Al Stills
N625AZ
Message 13
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|
Subject: | Custom built Panel |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" <flyinggpa@comcast.net>
Will
Thanks for asking.
The panel in "Wile E. Coyote" , N229WC, was made using the "lost foam" lay-up method.
The curved lower edge is necessary because the panel is 12" deep ( closer
to my eyes). The wood grain is countertop Formica bonded to .090" alum.
There is a lip around the edge of the fiberglass that has anchor nuts bonded in
for mounding the removable panels. All the wiring is through Circler AMP connectors.
I can remove the Port panel in about 10 minutes. ( been done several time
because of upgrades I have made)
The other feature of the panel is that the cockpit air system is built into it
. The ducts and vents are made of fiberglass and part of the panel.
Cliff Shaw
1041 Euclid ave.
Edmonds, WA 98020
425 776 5555
http://www.europaowners.org/WileE
----- Original Message -----
From: William Daniell
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 6:09 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting base for finger brake cylinder
--> Europa-List message posted by: "William Daniell" <wdaniell@etb.net.co>
Cliff,
Looking through your pics I see the instrument panel looks like its make of
ply? Also a nifty (that means clever in American) bow shape to the lower
rim of the panel - more room I suppose.
How did you do this?
Will
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cliff Shaw
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: mounting base for finger brake cylinder
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" <flyinggpa@comcast.net>
Karl
You have built a very interesting "Tunnel" I remember looking at it and
thinking "why did I not think of doing that " I wish I had.
The dream I have now is to make doors on the belly of my trygear that open
up like a bomb-bay. It would be fun to see the "security people" look at my
plane then.
Cliff Shaw
1041 Euclid ave.
Edmonds, WA 98020
425 776 5555
http://www.europaowners.org/WileE
----- Original Message -----
From: KARL HEINDL
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 3:13 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting base for finger brake cylinder
--> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" <kheindl@msn.com>
Will,
No, I beg to dffer from Cliff. I do all interior tunnel maintenance from
the
top ( why does everybody like to crawl underneath the fuselage ?). The
brake
cylinder assembly is mounted on a removable plate, and I have a removable
lid over the rest of the tunnel, so I can use it also for storage, and in
my
case aerial photography through a window in the bottom of the fuselage.
Karl
>From: "William Daniell" <wdaniell@etb.net.co>
>Reply-To: europa-list@matronics.com
>To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting base for finger brake cylinder
>Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:48:35 -0500
>
>--> Europa-List message posted by: "William Daniell"
<wdaniell@etb.net.co>
>
>Ah so the secret is longer levers?
>
>I am thinking is that you mount everything within the tunnel with two
slits
>for the levers and no other openings on the top of the tunnel - all
>maintenance done from the belly.
>
>Is this right?
>
>Will
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KARL HEINDL
>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting base for finger brake cylinder
>
>--> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" <kheindl@msn.com>
>
>
>Will,
>
>Yes, I did originally, but with limited success, mainly because I used
the
>original levers with short extensions. Whatever cylinders you use, you
need
>long and strong handles. The original gokart cylinders were certainly
less
>troublesome otherwise. Myself and other builders had to fiddle around
quite
>a bit with the Jamar dual cylinder before it worked properly.
>
>Karl
>
>
> >From: "William Daniell" <wdaniell@etb.net.co>
> >Reply-To: europa-list@matronics.com
> >To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting base for finger brake cylinder
> >Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:31:57 -0500
> >
> >--> Europa-List message posted by: "William Daniell"
><wdaniell@etb.net.co>
> >
> >Has anyone mounted the foot brake cylinders as finger brakes?
> >
> >Will
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> >[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of G-IANI
> >To: europa-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting base for finger brake cylinder
> >
> >--> Europa-List message posted by: "G-IANI" <g-iani@ntlworld.com>
> >
> >Bruce
> >
> >You are right the Europa brake cylinder is the Jamar US2002X
> >
> >I will send you direct a photo of my installation bracket. Have a look
>and
> >I can send you more details if needed.
> >
> >On the levers I would buy the Europa parts. They carry quite a load so
> >strength and hardness are important as well as size.
> >
> >
> >Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
> >Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
> >e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
> > or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
> >
> >
>
>
Message 14
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|
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
I read with interest Erich's suggestion to replace the kit cable
internal lines with AS parts, which (I forget who) said were not a good fit.
We sometimes speak in generalities, and while I agree that this fills most
needs, actual measurements mean a lot more, to me at least. Remember, I'm in
an innumerate society, where large become monstrous, extralarge or even
professionally big, but the numbers are gone.
So I brang out my micorsizer and the diameter of the unsatisfactory
innards is 0.060 inches or 1.52mm. I can get "piano wire" at that diameter.
Do you think that would work? I understand that the technical standards are
missing, but it seems to have the hard characteristics that the throttle
'push' needs to avoid kinking.
Also some poor fish deleted the message before I could research the
technical name for the 'lubricant' down the cables. I think it was me. Might
as well do the choke lines too.
Flames?
Ferg
A064
I am on my third lower firewall sheet.
Message 15
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|
Subject: | Re: Throttle Cables |
--> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com
Hi Ferg,
Here in u.k. there are several lubricants recommended for inner cables -
mainly in the motorcycle world, Putoline and Sylkolene are two of the propiatory
names. Both have silcone incorporated.
No doubt there are several other makes which will do the job - ask at your
local m/c shop.
Best wishes.
Patrick
Message 16
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|
Subject: | Re: Throttle Cables |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Gerry Holland <gholland@gemini-resourcing.com>
Ferg Hi!
The Lubricant I used on the Throttle cables and Choke was Putoline Cable
Aerosol.
Gerry
Message 17
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|
--> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson <rowil@clara.net>
I have not suffered any financial loss as a result of the collaps of
EMIL, but I've been trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who
has, and wondering which situation I'd prefer:
(A) Keith Wilson is in prison, and there is no prospect of any of my
money being returned.
(B) Keith Wilson is free to carry out gainful employment, and has
agreed that a proportion of his earnings be diverted to a fund
(administered by an independent 3rd party) devoted to repaying money
to those who paid EMIL for stuff and didnt get it.
Seems to me that (B) would be favourite; preferring (A) seems to be
cutting off my nose to spite my face. However, I recognise that
without direct experience of the situation, I may be wrong in my
perception.
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson PFA #16532 <http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/>
| 750 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail <rowil@clara.net>
Message 18
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|
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Bill and Sue" <billandsue@billbell.co.uk>
Carl has a good point- Like so many others I lost out from the demise of
EMIL not nearly so badly as some, perhaps if I had I would be more angry
and like most people. I simply don't know any of the detail of what
happened, but I'm pretty sure it could have been worse if Europa had simply
disappeared leaving us without parts or even design information.
If EMIL had pulled the plugs earlier I imagine there would have been dismay
and accusations of premature action from builders left stranded as a result.
Again, if you were to warn potential customers that the company is in
trouble it would inevitably become a self-fulfilling prophesy. There seems
no way for any company to fail without there being innocent victims.
When I took the plunge and started building it was the way the kit flew that
attracted me, but I was aware that so many aircraft manufacturers (not just
kit producers) with excellent products have gone under leaving their
customers stranded. It seemed to me then, and still does, that the number of
kits in circulation was a protection in itself -there are enough builders to
make it attractive for someone to pick up the pieces -look how many people
were offering to supply parts when EMIL went under, even before E2004 was
formed.
Judging by the number of aircraft companies that have floundered financially
in the past, being an aircraft manufacturer is no way to get rich. (And
judging from the rates they charge, being an administrator sounds more
profitable!)
If the administrators have done their job properly -which must surely be the
case as this sounds a pretty straightforward insolvency as these things go-
the time for any form of legal action has long passed. The moneys gone.
I don't know how much culpability Keith had in peoples losses, but it seemed
to me that supplying free photos was a rather appropriate form of community
service. A trust fund certainly isn't going to solve everything, but every
little helps.
We should all take some comfort from the fact that the success of the
design has meant that at least we are not all nursing unfinished and
unfinishable kits due to a lack of parts or information -something that has
happened in the past.
Whether we are flying or still building, the continuing success of E2004 is
very much in our interests.
Cheers
Bill
Message 19
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|
Subject: | RE: (Without Prejudice) |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Hi! ? MORGAN?
The problem there, is that the magazine in included in our compulsory
subscription/Membership of the PFA. Our aircraft fly under a "Permit to
Fly" the authority which is derived from the CAA to our Association so
they have captive sales and a captive audience. Now ,.....the Europa
Club isn't compulsory but once again their Mag. is included in the
membership fee.
In the case of the PFA the Europa content is but a miniscule factor and
the mag. therefore covers many other aircraft types and groups.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
lmorgan822@aol.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice)
--> Europa-List message posted by: lmorgan822@aol.com
I will do anything I can to keep him out of the industry. We don't need
him. I would suggest an 1 month boycot of the magazine. That would get
their attention if they didn't sell anything for a month or two. There
are plenty of other pubs to get your information from. Sounds like the
magazine is trying to, if not cover up for him, shield him.
-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Burrows <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice)
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows"
<alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
Are we just simply moaning amongst ourselves here or are we passing
these comments to Graham Newby, because if not, then the PFA will simply
think we have gone away. I for one have no problem with him taking
pictures and giving them to the PFA for free. My very real problem would
be if he ever managed to get himself back into a position of authority
within a company, because if we allow him to walk back into favour with
the PFA as though nothing has happened, then that's the next step for
him. He is probably one of the most incompetent managers I have ever
come across, and believe me in 25yrs of running companies and working as
a business advisor for the DTI, I have come across plenty in my time.
For this reason its important that we make our feelings plain to the PFA
and continue to do so, because if not he will re-appear somewhere else
in the next couple of years blaming everyone but himself and then we
could all be sorry, so PLEASE guys be prepared to stand up and be
counted. How would you feel if he popped up again running an aircraft
magazine that you wanted to sell your aircraft in, or worst still a
parts company when you really needed that part.. Would you really be
happy to give him your credit card details..!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David
Hillam
Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice)
--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Hillam"
--> <sqwk7000@cotswoldwireless.co.uk>
Hi All,
We have heard a lot of evidence over the last few days that seems to be
pretty unequivical. Has this evidence been presented to the police in
the UK? I would assume that as the alleged offence took place in
Yorkshire, it is the Yorkshire Constabulary that should receive it.
If this has already been done, what was their response?
David
G-SHSH
> A quick google suggests that "insolvent trading" as a crime is a
> British thing, popping up also in Australia and NZ, but not in the
> U.S. However, legal articles outside the U.S. cite that it's
> typically very difficult to prove insolvency in a small company as
> being known beyond a reasonable doubt to the defendant, and further
> that his actions were done with criminal intent. As a civil matter in
> the U.S., on a failed UK company, the case is a loser alone on the
> issue of enforceability of a judgment, and there may be no "U.S.
> nexus" for our courts' jurisdiction anyway.
>
> Reg,
> Fred F.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 20
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|
Subject: | RE: (Without Prejudice) |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul Bunting" <paul.bunting@developtheweb.com>
Hi All,
I am normally just a reader not a poster, I personally was not at any
financial loss due to KW's actions or EM(I)L's demise, however I have been
financially hit by the miss dealings of another unscrupulous MD of a
different company.
Though there may be little the police can do in most cases, especially if
there is a lack of documented evidence or such like, there is action those
wronged could take provided they have some proof.
If the director of a company is at fault they can be disqualified from
holding that position in any other companies or from setting up a company...
It is generally up to the receiver to start proceedings against the Director
of a company: -
=================
When can disqualification occur?
When a company has failed, the OR (or IP in a creditors' voluntary
liquidation, an administrative receivership or an administration) has to
send the Secretary of State a report on the conduct of all directors who
were in office in the last 3 years of the company's trading. The Secretary
of State has to decide whether it is in the public interest to seek a
disqualification order. Any application is heard and decided by the court.
Examples of conduct which may lead to disqualification include:
. continuing to trade to the detriment of creditors at a time when the
company was insolvent
. failure to keep proper accounting records
. failure to prepare and file accounts or make returns to Companies House
. failure to submit tax returns or pay over to the Crown tax or other money
due
. failure to co-operate with the OR/IP.
=================
However if you have proof you can officially voice your concerns and seek
advice from The Disqualification Unit, The Insolvency Service, PO Box 203,
21 Bloomsbury, Street, LONDON, WC1B 3QW - Tel : 0207 291 6806
Likewise those who feel the Receiver acted out with their remit or
incorrectly they should report it to the appropriate government bodies.
You could also see: -
http://www.creditman.co.uk/insolven/director.html
http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/directordisqualificationandrestrictions/whatisd
isqualification.htm
http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/index.htm
Regards,
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Burrows
Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice)
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows"
--> <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
Are we just simply moaning amongst ourselves here or are we passing these
comments to Graham Newby, because if not, then the PFA will simply think we
have gone away. I for one have no problem with him taking pictures and
giving them to the PFA for free. My very real problem would be if he ever
managed to get himself back into a position of authority within a company,
because if we allow him to walk back into favour with the PFA as though
nothing has happened, then that's the next step for him. He is probably one
of the most incompetent managers I have ever come across, and believe me in
25yrs of running companies and working as a business advisor for the DTI, I
have come across plenty in my time.
For this reason its important that we make our feelings plain to the PFA and
continue to do so, because if not he will re-appear somewhere else in the
next couple of years blaming everyone but himself and then we could all be
sorry, so PLEASE guys be prepared to stand up and be counted. How would you
feel if he popped up again running an aircraft magazine that you wanted to
sell your aircraft in, or worst still a parts company when you really needed
that part.. Would you really be happy to give him your credit card
details..!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Hillam
Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice)
--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Hillam"
--> <sqwk7000@cotswoldwireless.co.uk>
Hi All,
We have heard a lot of evidence over the last few days that seems to be
pretty unequivical. Has this evidence been presented to the police in the
UK? I would assume that as the alleged offence took place in Yorkshire, it
is the Yorkshire Constabulary that should receive it.
If this has already been done, what was their response?
David
G-SHSH
> A quick google suggests that "insolvent trading" as a crime is a
> British thing, popping up also in Australia and NZ, but not in the
> U.S. However, legal articles outside the U.S. cite that it's
> typically very difficult to prove insolvency in a small company as
> being known beyond a reasonable doubt to the defendant, and further
> that his actions were done with criminal intent. As a civil matter in
> the U.S., on a failed UK company, the case is a loser alone on the
> issue of enforceability of a judgment, and there may be no "U.S.
> nexus" for our courts' jurisdiction anyway.
>
> Reg,
> Fred F.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 21
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|
Subject: | Re: Throttle Cables |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
To Patrick and Gerry, and any others who may reply,
Many thanks for the lubricant info. I'm beginning to think perhaps I
should go motorcycle, especially since they seem to have all the right
parts!
Much obliged.
Ferg
Message 22
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|
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
<< being an aircraft manufacturer is no way to get rich.>>
Unless you're Boeing or Airbus and can rely on big government 'subsidies'.
Oops, we'd better not go there!
Or a very small aircraft company that can survive on G'mnt. start-up
subsidies.
Duncan McF
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill and Sue" <billandsue@billbell.co.uk>
Subject: Europa-List:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bill and Sue"
> <billandsue@billbell.co.uk>
>
> Carl has a good point- Like so many others I lost out from the demise of
> EMIL not nearly so badly as some, perhaps if I had I would be more angry
> and like most people. I simply don't know any of the detail of what
> happened, but I'm pretty sure it could have been worse if Europa had
> simply
> disappeared leaving us without parts or even design information.
>
> If EMIL had pulled the plugs earlier I imagine there would have been
> dismay
> and accusations of premature action from builders left stranded as a
> result.
> Again, if you were to warn potential customers that the company is in
> trouble it would inevitably become a self-fulfilling prophesy. There
> seems
> no way for any company to fail without there being innocent victims.
> When I took the plunge and started building it was the way the kit flew
> that
> attracted me, but I was aware that so many aircraft manufacturers (not
> just
> kit producers) with excellent products have gone under leaving their
> customers stranded. It seemed to me then, and still does, that the number
> of
> kits in circulation was a protection in itself -there are enough builders
> to
> make it attractive for someone to pick up the pieces -look how many people
> were offering to supply parts when EMIL went under, even before E2004 was
> formed.
>
> Judging by the number of aircraft companies that have floundered
> financially
> in the past, being an aircraft manufacturer is no way to get rich. (And
> judging from the rates they charge, being an administrator sounds more
> profitable!)
> If the administrators have done their job properly -which must surely be
> the
> case as this sounds a pretty straightforward insolvency as these things
> go-
> the time for any form of legal action has long passed. The moneys gone.
>
> I don't know how much culpability Keith had in peoples losses, but it
> seemed
> to me that supplying free photos was a rather appropriate form of
> community
> service. A trust fund certainly isn't going to solve everything, but every
> little helps.
> We should all take some comfort from the fact that the success of the
> design has meant that at least we are not all nursing unfinished and
> unfinishable kits due to a lack of parts or information -something that
> has
> happened in the past.
> Whether we are flying or still building, the continuing success of E2004
> is
> very much in our interests.
>
> Cheers
>
> Bill
>
>
>
Message 23
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|
Subject: | Re: keith wilson |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Is 'B' a cheap way of staying out of prison?
Duncan Mcf.
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rowland Carson" <rowil@clara.net>
Subject: Europa-List: keith wilson
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson <rowil@clara.net>
>
> I have not suffered any financial loss as a result of the collaps of
> EMIL, but I've been trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who
> has, and wondering which situation I'd prefer:
>
> (A) Keith Wilson is in prison, and there is no prospect of any of my
> money being returned.
>
> (B) Keith Wilson is free to carry out gainful employment, and has
> agreed that a proportion of his earnings be diverted to a fund
> (administered by an independent 3rd party) devoted to repaying money
> to those who paid EMIL for stuff and didnt get it.
>
> Seems to me that (B) would be favourite; preferring (A) seems to be
> cutting off my nose to spite my face. However, I recognise that
> without direct experience of the situation, I may be wrong in my
> perception.
>
> regards
>
> Rowland
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 24
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|
Subject: | Re: keith wilson |
--> Europa-List message posted by: lmorgan822@aol.com
Something like plan B would have to be court supervised and controlled as KW doesn't
have the honesty to do it himself.
-----Original Message-----
From: Rowland Carson <rowil@clara.net>
Subject: Europa-List: keith wilson
--> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson <rowil@clara.net>
I have not suffered any financial loss as a result of the collaps of
EMIL, but I've been trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who
has, and wondering which situation I'd prefer:
(A) Keith Wilson is in prison, and there is no prospect of any of my
money being returned.
(B) Keith Wilson is free to carry out gainful employment, and has
agreed that a proportion of his earnings be diverted to a fund
(administered by an independent 3rd party) devoted to repaying money
to those who paid EMIL for stuff and didnt get it.
Seems to me that (B) would be favourite; preferring (A) seems to be
cutting off my nose to spite my face. However, I recognise that
without direct experience of the situation, I may be wrong in my
perception.
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson PFA #16532 <http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/>
| 750 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail <rowil@clara.net>
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