---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 10/26/05: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:08 AM - without prejudice (Graham Singleton) 2. 04:33 AM - Re: (Without Prejudice) (skyrider2) 3. 05:57 AM - Re: Re: (Without Prejudice) (Fred Fillinger) 4. 06:09 AM - Re: mounting base for finger brake cylinder (William Daniell) 5. 06:30 AM - Re: Re: (Without Prejudice) (David Hillam) 6. 06:42 AM - Re: without prejudice () 7. 07:22 AM - Re: Re: (Without Prejudice) (Alan Burrows) 8. 08:03 AM - November Kit Planes article (Paul Boulet) 9. 08:12 AM - Re: Re: (Without Prejudice) (lmorgan822@aol.com) 10. 08:22 AM - Re: Re: (Without Prejudice) (lmorgan822@aol.com) 11. 08:39 AM - New us Distributor (Al Stills) 12. 08:42 AM - Re: November Kit Planes article (Al Stills) 13. 08:43 AM - Custom built Panel (Cliff Shaw) 14. 11:41 AM - Throttle Cables (Fergus Kyle) 15. 12:11 PM - Re: Throttle Cables (BEBERRY@aol.com) 16. 12:27 PM - Re: Throttle Cables (Gerry Holland) 17. 01:02 PM - keith wilson (Rowland Carson) 18. 01:13 PM - (Bill and Sue) 19. 01:34 PM - Re: Re: (Without Prejudice) (R.C.Harrison) 20. 02:09 PM - Re: Re: (Without Prejudice) (Paul Bunting) 21. 02:24 PM - Re: Throttle Cables (Fergus Kyle) 22. 02:52 PM - Re: (Duncan McFadyean) 23. 02:53 PM - Re: keith wilson (Duncan McFadyean) 24. 03:53 PM - Re: keith wilson (lmorgan822@AOL.COM) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:08:58 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Europa-List: without prejudice --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton Carl Pattinson wrote: When a company gets into financial trouble there is a fine dividing line between going on when the company is losing money and pulling the plug before it is too late. The demise of the Rover group is a prime example. If managers/ directors pulled the plug at the first sign of financial difficulty there wouldnt be many companies left in business. Carl Keith was told by his own financial director, in writing, that they were trading illegally 18 months before the final crinch. She then resigned from the company. A year after this KW telephoned Niels Koch in Denmark to send the money for kit number 1002, it was ready for despatch, it was never sent and indeed could not have been, most suppliers had refused to continue until they were paid, Slingsby among them. Keith knew this. He continued to defraud customers for another 6 months. The administrators were equally dishonest imho. Customers' cheques were cashed AFTER the winding up in the full knowledge that nothing would be supplied. It might well be legal but it certainly isn't just or honest. They were very quick to destroy all evidence of fraud apparently on the grounds that no one was going to pay them to investigate. Yet another example of the imorality of the English legal system. Graham ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:33:47 AM PST US From: "skyrider2" Subject: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice) --> Europa-List message posted by: "skyrider2" I have to call BS on this Carl. Where has it been written or stated that Keith Wilson has offered to compensate anyone for their loss? Actions speak louder than words. He's had almost a year and a half, so list all of the folks that he's paid back for funds paid to him for parts and planes, in good faith, that were never received. I certainly haven't received a refund check or my windscreens. And no, my address and other contact information has not changed. So Keith, if you're reading this, when can I expect my refund? Or my windshield and door glass? As for personal vendettas, each of the items KW cheated all of us out of, represent a portion of our lives. We had to work for the money that we paid Keith, and that work took time. Something we can never get back. And something that KW will owe us for for the rest of his life. Or at least until he pays us. You say we don't have a "right" to carry out a vendetta against KW. Well, I'll tell you this, I've got over 46,000 reasons "invested" in my right to call Keith on the carpet. He deceived us from the very beginning and he attempts to continue to this day. This "time" or "episode" in Europa's history (or at least Keith's history) will remain open indefinately. I, unlike you, don't have a short memory. And he most certainly should not be "earning" any money in the aviation field. Buyers Beware !!!! I too, would like a shot at him in a US court. So Keith, the gauntlet's been thrown down, wanna pick it up? Ya'll fly safely and think of us ground bound libelers from time to time, Doug Lawton A245 NE Georgia From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice) --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" Why are you disgusted that Keith Wilson and the PFA have put their side of the story. There is a premise in this country, that a person is innocent until proven guilty. Despite all the bad feeling and the fact that people have lost a lot of money there is no proof that it is Keiths fault. Is there any evidence that he funded a lavish lifestyle at the companys/ customers expense? The worst you can accuse him is of bad management and even that would be difficult to prove. Its a sad fact of life but aircraft manufacturers seem to get into financial trouble all the time. The list of companies that have gone out of business is endless. Companies go to the wall every day and people lose large sums as a result of it. Quite often the directors involved lose large sums too and sometimes their homes. I know this because I nearly lost my home and 300,000 in exactly the same way. At the end of the day I still lost a large sum of money and I am still repaying the debt, 5 years after the event. Keith Wilson has personally lost similar sums of money. The idea that he has walked away scott free is total rubbish. When a company gets into financial trouble there is a fine dividing line between going on when the company is losing money and pulling the plug before it is too late. The demise of the Rover group is a prime example. If managers/ directors pulled the plug at the first sign of financial difficulty there wouldnt be many companies left in business. Whatever Keith is alleged to have done, he is entitled to defend himself and to earn a living for himself and his family. I understand that people have had their dreams shattered and lost considerable amounts of money but all these things can be rebuilt with time. What has happened does not give anyone the right to conduct a personal vendetta against Keith or to insist that the PFA dosen't use his work. The fact that he is offered to make the recompense should be applauded and it is time this episode in the Europa's history was brought to a close and Keith was allowed to get on with his life. Carl Pattinson G-LABS PS: Just in case people want to accuse me of being biased I will tell you of my connection with Keith. Before he took the reins at EML I did business with him in his capacity of Aviation Photographer and I never had reason to question his personal integrity. I have had no dealings with him since the closure of EML nor is there any prospect of doing so as my company has closed. I have spoken to him once since that time to hear his side of the story, which in my opinion is only fair. I have also spoken to Graham Newby of the PFA. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:57:04 AM PST US From: "Fred Fillinger" Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice) --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" > --> Europa-List message posted by: "skyrider2" > > I too, would like a shot at him in a US court. So Keith, > the gauntlet's been thrown down, wanna pick it up? > A quick google suggests that "insolvent trading" as a crime is a British thing, popping up also in Australia and NZ, but not in the U.S. However, legal articles outside the U.S. cite that it's typically very difficult to prove insolvency in a small company as being known beyond a reasonable doubt to the defendant, and further that his actions were done with criminal intent. As a civil matter in the U.S., on a failed UK company, the case is a loser alone on the issue of enforceability of a judgment, and there may be no "U.S. nexus" for our courts' jurisdiction anyway. Reg, Fred F. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:09:47 AM PST US From: "William Daniell" Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting base for finger brake cylinder --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Daniell" Cliff, Looking through your pics I see the instrument panel looks like its make of ply? Also a nifty (that means clever in American) bow shape to the lower rim of the panel - more room I suppose. How did you do this? Will -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cliff Shaw Subject: Re: Europa-List: mounting base for finger brake cylinder --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" Karl You have built a very interesting "Tunnel" I remember looking at it and thinking "why did I not think of doing that " I wish I had. The dream I have now is to make doors on the belly of my trygear that open up like a bomb-bay. It would be fun to see the "security people" look at my plane then. Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE ----- Original Message ----- From: KARL HEINDL To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 3:13 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting base for finger brake cylinder --> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" Will, No, I beg to dffer from Cliff. I do all interior tunnel maintenance from the top ( why does everybody like to crawl underneath the fuselage ?). The brake cylinder assembly is mounted on a removable plate, and I have a removable lid over the rest of the tunnel, so I can use it also for storage, and in my case aerial photography through a window in the bottom of the fuselage. Karl >From: "William Daniell" >Reply-To: europa-list@matronics.com >To: >Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting base for finger brake cylinder >Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:48:35 -0500 > >--> Europa-List message posted by: "William Daniell" > >Ah so the secret is longer levers? > >I am thinking is that you mount everything within the tunnel with two slits >for the levers and no other openings on the top of the tunnel - all >maintenance done from the belly. > >Is this right? > >Will > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KARL HEINDL >To: europa-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting base for finger brake cylinder > >--> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" > > >Will, > >Yes, I did originally, but with limited success, mainly because I used the >original levers with short extensions. Whatever cylinders you use, you need >long and strong handles. The original gokart cylinders were certainly less >troublesome otherwise. Myself and other builders had to fiddle around quite >a bit with the Jamar dual cylinder before it worked properly. > >Karl > > > >From: "William Daniell" > >Reply-To: europa-list@matronics.com > >To: > >Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting base for finger brake cylinder > >Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:31:57 -0500 > > > >--> Europa-List message posted by: "William Daniell" > > > > >Has anyone mounted the foot brake cylinders as finger brakes? > > > >Will > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > >[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of G-IANI > >To: europa-list@matronics.com > >Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting base for finger brake cylinder > > > >--> Europa-List message posted by: "G-IANI" > > > >Bruce > > > >You are right the Europa brake cylinder is the Jamar US2002X > > > >I will send you direct a photo of my installation bracket. Have a look >and > >I can send you more details if needed. > > > >On the levers I would buy the Europa parts. They carry quite a load so > >strength and hardness are important as well as size. > > > > > >Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear > >Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) > >e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk > > or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:30:12 AM PST US From: "David Hillam" Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice) --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Hillam" Hi All, We have heard a lot of evidence over the last few days that seems to be pretty unequivical. Has this evidence been presented to the police in the UK? I would assume that as the alleged offence took place in Yorkshire, it is the Yorkshire Constabulary that should receive it. If this has already been done, what was their response? David G-SHSH > A quick google suggests that "insolvent trading" as a crime > is a British thing, popping up also in Australia and NZ, but > not in the U.S. However, legal articles outside the U.S. > cite that it's typically very difficult to prove insolvency > in a small company as being known beyond a reasonable doubt > to the defendant, and further that his actions were done > with criminal intent. As a civil matter in the U.S., on a > failed UK company, the case is a loser alone on the issue of > enforceability of a judgment, and there may be no "U.S. > nexus" for our courts' jurisdiction anyway. > > Reg, > Fred F. > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:27 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Europa-List: without prejudice --> Europa-List message posted by: I contacted the PFA magazine (Brian Hope) and Graham Newby directly to express my opionion in the matter - please see the responses below - as I said in earlier postings, action will only come from a collective action, preferably via the Europa club. Please not the bit from Brian Hope where he says he is willing to publish an official response from the Europa Club to Keiths letter Peter Peter Whilst I appreciate and sympathise with your feelings may I make a couple of points:- 1) When this issue was last discussed I agreed that I would raise it at both EC level and with the Europa Club. This I did and both agreed that we should carry on using Keiths photos where needed in the interests of producing the magazine. See the Europa Flyer June 2005. 2) Peter Kember, the Europa Club President, suggested to Keith that he write the letter in PF and set up the trust. Since the rally Peter and Keith have been passing drafts backwards and forwards and Peter agreed the final wording as published. To say that Brian has overstepped his remit therefore is, in my view, unfair. Please do ring me here at Turweston if you would like to discuss the matter further. Best regards Graham Hello Peter, this debate has been batted around on at least two previous occasions. The last such occasion was when the Executive Committee agreed, I'm pretty sure unanimously, that KW could continue providing his services to Popular Flying. That decision was relayed to senior members of the Europa Club, who accepted it, and it was reported in the Europa Club magazine. I see no reason to go over that ground again. as far as the Trust Fund is concerned, Peter Kember has been in discussion with KW about it since the PFA Rally and was fully aware, and approving of the content of the letter. I am quite prepared to publish an official Europa Club response to the letter and its proposals (provided it does not open the PFA to any form of legal challenge), but I see no benefit to opening up the argument on the rights and wrongs of KW's involvement with Popular Flying. Regards, Brian Hope. > > From: Graham Singleton > Date: 2005/10/26 Wed AM 10:07:44 BST > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: without prejudice > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton > > Carl Pattinson wrote: > > When a company gets into financial trouble there is a fine dividing line > between going on when the company is losing money and pulling the plug > before it is too late. The demise of the Rover group is a prime example. If > managers/ directors pulled the plug at the first sign of financial > difficulty there wouldnt be many companies left in business. > > Carl > Keith was told by his own financial director, in writing, that they were > trading illegally 18 months before the final crinch. She then resigned > from the company. > A year after this KW telephoned Niels Koch in Denmark to send the money > for kit number 1002, it was ready for despatch, it was never sent and > indeed could not have been, most suppliers had refused to continue until > they were paid, Slingsby among them. Keith knew this. He continued to > defraud customers for another 6 months. > The administrators were equally dishonest imho. Customers' cheques were > cashed AFTER the winding up in the full knowledge that nothing would be > supplied. It might well be legal but it certainly isn't just or honest. > They were very quick to destroy all evidence of fraud apparently on the > grounds that no one was going to pay them to investigate. > Yet another example of the imorality of the English legal system. > Graham > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------- Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:54 AM PST US From: "Alan Burrows" Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice) --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows" Are we just simply moaning amongst ourselves here or are we passing these comments to Graham Newby, because if not, then the PFA will simply think we have gone away. I for one have no problem with him taking pictures and giving them to the PFA for free. My very real problem would be if he ever managed to get himself back into a position of authority within a company, because if we allow him to walk back into favour with the PFA as though nothing has happened, then that's the next step for him. He is probably one of the most incompetent managers I have ever come across, and believe me in 25yrs of running companies and working as a business advisor for the DTI, I have come across plenty in my time. For this reason its important that we make our feelings plain to the PFA and continue to do so, because if not he will re-appear somewhere else in the next couple of years blaming everyone but himself and then we could all be sorry, so PLEASE guys be prepared to stand up and be counted. How would you feel if he popped up again running an aircraft magazine that you wanted to sell your aircraft in, or worst still a parts company when you really needed that part.. Would you really be happy to give him your credit card details..! -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Hillam Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice) --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Hillam" --> Hi All, We have heard a lot of evidence over the last few days that seems to be pretty unequivical. Has this evidence been presented to the police in the UK? I would assume that as the alleged offence took place in Yorkshire, it is the Yorkshire Constabulary that should receive it. If this has already been done, what was their response? David G-SHSH > A quick google suggests that "insolvent trading" as a crime is a > British thing, popping up also in Australia and NZ, but not in the > U.S. However, legal articles outside the U.S. cite that it's > typically very difficult to prove insolvency in a small company as > being known beyond a reasonable doubt to the defendant, and further > that his actions were done with criminal intent. As a civil matter in > the U.S., on a failed UK company, the case is a loser alone on the > issue of enforceability of a judgment, and there may be no "U.S. > nexus" for our courts' jurisdiction anyway. > > Reg, > Fred F. > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:32 AM PST US From: Paul Boulet Subject: Europa-List: November Kit Planes article --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Boulet Hi All; has anyone seen the November letters to the editor from KitPlanes magazine? There's a letter stating Europa is alive and well and that Kim Prout will soon be handling USA distribution- this is the first I've heard of it- Kim has been pretty silent on this board for a long time Paul Boulet, N914PB "converting mono to tri- have 10 hours flown off so far" Malibu, CA ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:31 AM PST US From: lmorgan822@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice) --> Europa-List message posted by: lmorgan822@aol.com I haven't been contacted either on any compensation. None of my information has changed. Doug, all of your points are well stated. KW needs to be completely out of the aviation business, and wherever he pops up, he needs to be exposed. He is the British equivalent of Jim Bede. -----Original Message----- From: skyrider2 Subject: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice) --> Europa-List message posted by: "skyrider2" I have to call BS on this Carl. Where has it been written or stated that Keith Wilson has offered to compensate anyone for their loss? Actions speak louder than words. He's had almost a year and a half, so list all of the folks that he's paid back for funds paid to him for parts and planes, in good faith, that were never received. I certainly haven't received a refund check or my windscreens. And no, my address and other contact information has not changed. So Keith, if you're reading this, when can I expect my refund? Or my windshield and door glass? As for personal vendettas, each of the items KW cheated all of us out of, represent a portion of our lives. We had to work for the money that we paid Keith, and that work took time. Something we can never get back. And something that KW will owe us for for the rest of his life. Or at least until he pays us. You say we don't have a "right" to carry out a vendetta against KW. Well, I'll tell you this, I've got over 46,000 reasons "invested" in my right to call Keith on the carpet. He deceived us from the very beginning and he attempts to continue to this day. This "time" or "episode" in Europa's history (or at least Keith's history) will remain open indefinately. I, unlike you, don't have a short memory. And he most certainly should not be "earning" any money in the aviation field. Buyers Beware !!!! I too, would like a shot at him in a US court. So Keith, the gauntlet's been thrown down, wanna pick it up? Ya'll fly safely and think of us ground bound libelers from time to time, Doug Lawton A245 NE Georgia From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice) --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" Why are you disgusted that Keith Wilson and the PFA have put their side of the story. There is a premise in this country, that a person is innocent until proven guilty. Despite all the bad feeling and the fact that people have lost a lot of money there is no proof that it is Keiths fault. Is there any evidence that he funded a lavish lifestyle at the companys/ customers expense? The worst you can accuse him is of bad management and even that would be difficult to prove. Its a sad fact of life but aircraft manufacturers seem to get into financial trouble all the time. The list of companies that have gone out of business is endless. Companies go to the wall every day and people lose large sums as a result of it. Quite often the directors involved lose large sums too and sometimes their homes. I know this because I nearly lost my home and 300,000 in exactly the same way. At the end of the day I still lost a large sum of money and I am still repaying the debt, 5 years after the event. Keith Wilson has personally lost similar sums of money. The idea that he has walked away scott free is total rubbish. When a company gets into financial trouble there is a fine dividing line between going on when the company is losing money and pulling the plug before it is too late. The demise of the Rover group is a prime example. If managers/ directors pulled the plug at the first sign of financial difficulty there wouldnt be many companies left in business. Whatever Keith is alleged to have done, he is entitled to defend himself and to earn a living for himself and his family. I understand that people have had their dreams shattered and lost considerable amounts of money but all these things can be rebuilt with time. What has happened does not give anyone the right to conduct a personal vendetta against Keith or to insist that the PFA dosen't use his work. The fact that he is offered to make the recompense should be applauded and it is time this episode in the Europa's history was brought to a close and Keith was allowed to get on with his life. Carl Pattinson G-LABS PS: Just in case people want to accuse me of being biased I will tell you of my connection with Keith. Before he took the reins at EML I did business with him in his capacity of Aviation Photographer and I never had reason to question his personal integrity. I have had no dealings with him since the closure of EML nor is there any prospect of doing so as my company has closed. I have spoken to him once since that time to hear his side of the story, which in my opinion is only fair. I have also spoken to Graham Newby of the PFA. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:09 AM PST US From: lmorgan822@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice) --> Europa-List message posted by: lmorgan822@aol.com I will do anything I can to keep him out of the industry. We don't need him. I would suggest an 1 month boycot of the magazine. That would get their attention if they didn't sell anything for a month or two. There are plenty of other pubs to get your information from. Sounds like the magazine is trying to, if not cover up for him, shield him. -----Original Message----- From: Alan Burrows Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice) --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows" Are we just simply moaning amongst ourselves here or are we passing these comments to Graham Newby, because if not, then the PFA will simply think we have gone away. I for one have no problem with him taking pictures and giving them to the PFA for free. My very real problem would be if he ever managed to get himself back into a position of authority within a company, because if we allow him to walk back into favour with the PFA as though nothing has happened, then that's the next step for him. He is probably one of the most incompetent managers I have ever come across, and believe me in 25yrs of running companies and working as a business advisor for the DTI, I have come across plenty in my time. For this reason its important that we make our feelings plain to the PFA and continue to do so, because if not he will re-appear somewhere else in the next couple of years blaming everyone but himself and then we could all be sorry, so PLEASE guys be prepared to stand up and be counted. How would you feel if he popped up again running an aircraft magazine that you wanted to sell your aircraft in, or worst still a parts company when you really needed that part.. Would you really be happy to give him your credit card details..! -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Hillam Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice) --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Hillam" --> Hi All, We have heard a lot of evidence over the last few days that seems to be pretty unequivical. Has this evidence been presented to the police in the UK? I would assume that as the alleged offence took place in Yorkshire, it is the Yorkshire Constabulary that should receive it. If this has already been done, what was their response? David G-SHSH > A quick google suggests that "insolvent trading" as a crime is a > British thing, popping up also in Australia and NZ, but not in the > U.S. However, legal articles outside the U.S. cite that it's > typically very difficult to prove insolvency in a small company as > being known beyond a reasonable doubt to the defendant, and further > that his actions were done with criminal intent. As a civil matter in > the U.S., on a failed UK company, the case is a loser alone on the > issue of enforceability of a judgment, and there may be no "U.S. > nexus" for our courts' jurisdiction anyway. > > Reg, > Fred F. > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:39:20 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: New us Distributor From: "Al Stills" 0.12 X_PRIORITY_HIGH Sent with 'X-Priority' set to high --> Europa-List message posted by: "Al Stills" Hi all, I read a letter from I believe Andy (if memory serves me right) to one of the US magazines (A rebuttal in the letters to the Editor) and then in this months Kitplanes showing Ken Prout in California as the US Distrubutor. Does anyone know if Ken is "now back in the fold". Al Stills N625AZ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:08 AM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: November Kit Planes article From: "Al Stills" --> Europa-List message posted by: "Al Stills" Paul You and I must be on the same wavelength. I just posted the same question. I read a letter to the editor a month or so ago to one of the magazines that said Ken and the company were talking about it. Let's hoe its true. Al Stills N625AZ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:30 AM PST US From: "Cliff Shaw" Subject: Europa-List: Custom built Panel --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" Will Thanks for asking. The panel in "Wile E. Coyote" , N229WC, was made using the "lost foam" lay-up method. The curved lower edge is necessary because the panel is 12" deep ( closer to my eyes). The wood grain is countertop Formica bonded to .090" alum. There is a lip around the edge of the fiberglass that has anchor nuts bonded in for mounding the removable panels. All the wiring is through Circler AMP connectors. I can remove the Port panel in about 10 minutes. ( been done several time because of upgrades I have made) The other feature of the panel is that the cockpit air system is built into it . The ducts and vents are made of fiberglass and part of the panel. Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE ----- Original Message ----- From: William Daniell To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 6:09 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting base for finger brake cylinder --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Daniell" Cliff, Looking through your pics I see the instrument panel looks like its make of ply? Also a nifty (that means clever in American) bow shape to the lower rim of the panel - more room I suppose. How did you do this? Will -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cliff Shaw To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: mounting base for finger brake cylinder --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" Karl You have built a very interesting "Tunnel" I remember looking at it and thinking "why did I not think of doing that " I wish I had. The dream I have now is to make doors on the belly of my trygear that open up like a bomb-bay. It would be fun to see the "security people" look at my plane then. Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE ----- Original Message ----- From: KARL HEINDL To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 3:13 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting base for finger brake cylinder --> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" Will, No, I beg to dffer from Cliff. I do all interior tunnel maintenance from the top ( why does everybody like to crawl underneath the fuselage ?). The brake cylinder assembly is mounted on a removable plate, and I have a removable lid over the rest of the tunnel, so I can use it also for storage, and in my case aerial photography through a window in the bottom of the fuselage. Karl >From: "William Daniell" >Reply-To: europa-list@matronics.com >To: >Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting base for finger brake cylinder >Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:48:35 -0500 > >--> Europa-List message posted by: "William Daniell" > >Ah so the secret is longer levers? > >I am thinking is that you mount everything within the tunnel with two slits >for the levers and no other openings on the top of the tunnel - all >maintenance done from the belly. > >Is this right? > >Will > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KARL HEINDL >To: europa-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting base for finger brake cylinder > >--> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" > > >Will, > >Yes, I did originally, but with limited success, mainly because I used the >original levers with short extensions. Whatever cylinders you use, you need >long and strong handles. The original gokart cylinders were certainly less >troublesome otherwise. Myself and other builders had to fiddle around quite >a bit with the Jamar dual cylinder before it worked properly. > >Karl > > > >From: "William Daniell" > >Reply-To: europa-list@matronics.com > >To: > >Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting base for finger brake cylinder > >Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:31:57 -0500 > > > >--> Europa-List message posted by: "William Daniell" > > > > >Has anyone mounted the foot brake cylinders as finger brakes? > > > >Will > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > >[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of G-IANI > >To: europa-list@matronics.com > >Subject: RE: Europa-List: mounting base for finger brake cylinder > > > >--> Europa-List message posted by: "G-IANI" > > > >Bruce > > > >You are right the Europa brake cylinder is the Jamar US2002X > > > >I will send you direct a photo of my installation bracket. Have a look >and > >I can send you more details if needed. > > > >On the levers I would buy the Europa parts. They carry quite a load so > >strength and hardness are important as well as size. > > > > > >Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear > >Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) > >e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk > > or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:40 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Europa-List: Throttle Cables --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" I read with interest Erich's suggestion to replace the kit cable internal lines with AS parts, which (I forget who) said were not a good fit. We sometimes speak in generalities, and while I agree that this fills most needs, actual measurements mean a lot more, to me at least. Remember, I'm in an innumerate society, where large become monstrous, extralarge or even professionally big, but the numbers are gone. So I brang out my micorsizer and the diameter of the unsatisfactory innards is 0.060 inches or 1.52mm. I can get "piano wire" at that diameter. Do you think that would work? I understand that the technical standards are missing, but it seems to have the hard characteristics that the throttle 'push' needs to avoid kinking. Also some poor fish deleted the message before I could research the technical name for the 'lubricant' down the cables. I think it was me. Might as well do the choke lines too. Flames? Ferg A064 I am on my third lower firewall sheet. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:11:18 PM PST US From: BEBERRY@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Throttle Cables --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com Hi Ferg, Here in u.k. there are several lubricants recommended for inner cables - mainly in the motorcycle world, Putoline and Sylkolene are two of the propiatory names. Both have silcone incorporated. No doubt there are several other makes which will do the job - ask at your local m/c shop. Best wishes. Patrick ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:27:16 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Throttle Cables From: Gerry Holland --> Europa-List message posted by: Gerry Holland Ferg Hi! The Lubricant I used on the Throttle cables and Choke was Putoline Cable Aerosol. Gerry ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:02:03 PM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: Europa-List: keith wilson --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson I have not suffered any financial loss as a result of the collaps of EMIL, but I've been trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who has, and wondering which situation I'd prefer: (A) Keith Wilson is in prison, and there is no prospect of any of my money being returned. (B) Keith Wilson is free to carry out gainful employment, and has agreed that a proportion of his earnings be diverted to a fund (administered by an independent 3rd party) devoted to repaying money to those who paid EMIL for stuff and didnt get it. Seems to me that (B) would be favourite; preferring (A) seems to be cutting off my nose to spite my face. However, I recognise that without direct experience of the situation, I may be wrong in my perception. regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson PFA #16532 | 750 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:13:32 PM PST US From: "Bill and Sue" Subject: Europa-List: --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bill and Sue" Carl has a good point- Like so many others I lost out from the demise of EMIL not nearly so badly as some, perhaps if I had I would be more angry and like most people. I simply don't know any of the detail of what happened, but I'm pretty sure it could have been worse if Europa had simply disappeared leaving us without parts or even design information. If EMIL had pulled the plugs earlier I imagine there would have been dismay and accusations of premature action from builders left stranded as a result. Again, if you were to warn potential customers that the company is in trouble it would inevitably become a self-fulfilling prophesy. There seems no way for any company to fail without there being innocent victims. When I took the plunge and started building it was the way the kit flew that attracted me, but I was aware that so many aircraft manufacturers (not just kit producers) with excellent products have gone under leaving their customers stranded. It seemed to me then, and still does, that the number of kits in circulation was a protection in itself -there are enough builders to make it attractive for someone to pick up the pieces -look how many people were offering to supply parts when EMIL went under, even before E2004 was formed. Judging by the number of aircraft companies that have floundered financially in the past, being an aircraft manufacturer is no way to get rich. (And judging from the rates they charge, being an administrator sounds more profitable!) If the administrators have done their job properly -which must surely be the case as this sounds a pretty straightforward insolvency as these things go- the time for any form of legal action has long passed. The moneys gone. I don't know how much culpability Keith had in peoples losses, but it seemed to me that supplying free photos was a rather appropriate form of community service. A trust fund certainly isn't going to solve everything, but every little helps. We should all take some comfort from the fact that the success of the design has meant that at least we are not all nursing unfinished and unfinishable kits due to a lack of parts or information -something that has happened in the past. Whether we are flying or still building, the continuing success of E2004 is very much in our interests. Cheers Bill ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:44 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice) --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! ? MORGAN? The problem there, is that the magazine in included in our compulsory subscription/Membership of the PFA. Our aircraft fly under a "Permit to Fly" the authority which is derived from the CAA to our Association so they have captive sales and a captive audience. Now ,.....the Europa Club isn't compulsory but once again their Mag. is included in the membership fee. In the case of the PFA the Europa content is but a miniscule factor and the mag. therefore covers many other aircraft types and groups. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300 -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of lmorgan822@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice) --> Europa-List message posted by: lmorgan822@aol.com I will do anything I can to keep him out of the industry. We don't need him. I would suggest an 1 month boycot of the magazine. That would get their attention if they didn't sell anything for a month or two. There are plenty of other pubs to get your information from. Sounds like the magazine is trying to, if not cover up for him, shield him. -----Original Message----- From: Alan Burrows Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice) --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows" Are we just simply moaning amongst ourselves here or are we passing these comments to Graham Newby, because if not, then the PFA will simply think we have gone away. I for one have no problem with him taking pictures and giving them to the PFA for free. My very real problem would be if he ever managed to get himself back into a position of authority within a company, because if we allow him to walk back into favour with the PFA as though nothing has happened, then that's the next step for him. He is probably one of the most incompetent managers I have ever come across, and believe me in 25yrs of running companies and working as a business advisor for the DTI, I have come across plenty in my time. For this reason its important that we make our feelings plain to the PFA and continue to do so, because if not he will re-appear somewhere else in the next couple of years blaming everyone but himself and then we could all be sorry, so PLEASE guys be prepared to stand up and be counted. How would you feel if he popped up again running an aircraft magazine that you wanted to sell your aircraft in, or worst still a parts company when you really needed that part.. Would you really be happy to give him your credit card details..! -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Hillam Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice) --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Hillam" --> Hi All, We have heard a lot of evidence over the last few days that seems to be pretty unequivical. Has this evidence been presented to the police in the UK? I would assume that as the alleged offence took place in Yorkshire, it is the Yorkshire Constabulary that should receive it. If this has already been done, what was their response? David G-SHSH > A quick google suggests that "insolvent trading" as a crime is a > British thing, popping up also in Australia and NZ, but not in the > U.S. However, legal articles outside the U.S. cite that it's > typically very difficult to prove insolvency in a small company as > being known beyond a reasonable doubt to the defendant, and further > that his actions were done with criminal intent. As a civil matter in > the U.S., on a failed UK company, the case is a loser alone on the > issue of enforceability of a judgment, and there may be no "U.S. > nexus" for our courts' jurisdiction anyway. > > Reg, > Fred F. > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:09:49 PM PST US From: "Paul Bunting" Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice) --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul Bunting" Hi All, I am normally just a reader not a poster, I personally was not at any financial loss due to KW's actions or EM(I)L's demise, however I have been financially hit by the miss dealings of another unscrupulous MD of a different company. Though there may be little the police can do in most cases, especially if there is a lack of documented evidence or such like, there is action those wronged could take provided they have some proof. If the director of a company is at fault they can be disqualified from holding that position in any other companies or from setting up a company... It is generally up to the receiver to start proceedings against the Director of a company: - ================= When can disqualification occur? When a company has failed, the OR (or IP in a creditors' voluntary liquidation, an administrative receivership or an administration) has to send the Secretary of State a report on the conduct of all directors who were in office in the last 3 years of the company's trading. The Secretary of State has to decide whether it is in the public interest to seek a disqualification order. Any application is heard and decided by the court. Examples of conduct which may lead to disqualification include: . continuing to trade to the detriment of creditors at a time when the company was insolvent . failure to keep proper accounting records . failure to prepare and file accounts or make returns to Companies House . failure to submit tax returns or pay over to the Crown tax or other money due . failure to co-operate with the OR/IP. ================= However if you have proof you can officially voice your concerns and seek advice from The Disqualification Unit, The Insolvency Service, PO Box 203, 21 Bloomsbury, Street, LONDON, WC1B 3QW - Tel : 0207 291 6806 Likewise those who feel the Receiver acted out with their remit or incorrectly they should report it to the appropriate government bodies. You could also see: - http://www.creditman.co.uk/insolven/director.html http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/directordisqualificationandrestrictions/whatisd isqualification.htm http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/index.htm Regards, Paul -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Burrows Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice) --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows" --> Are we just simply moaning amongst ourselves here or are we passing these comments to Graham Newby, because if not, then the PFA will simply think we have gone away. I for one have no problem with him taking pictures and giving them to the PFA for free. My very real problem would be if he ever managed to get himself back into a position of authority within a company, because if we allow him to walk back into favour with the PFA as though nothing has happened, then that's the next step for him. He is probably one of the most incompetent managers I have ever come across, and believe me in 25yrs of running companies and working as a business advisor for the DTI, I have come across plenty in my time. For this reason its important that we make our feelings plain to the PFA and continue to do so, because if not he will re-appear somewhere else in the next couple of years blaming everyone but himself and then we could all be sorry, so PLEASE guys be prepared to stand up and be counted. How would you feel if he popped up again running an aircraft magazine that you wanted to sell your aircraft in, or worst still a parts company when you really needed that part.. Would you really be happy to give him your credit card details..! -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Hillam Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: (Without Prejudice) --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Hillam" --> Hi All, We have heard a lot of evidence over the last few days that seems to be pretty unequivical. Has this evidence been presented to the police in the UK? I would assume that as the alleged offence took place in Yorkshire, it is the Yorkshire Constabulary that should receive it. If this has already been done, what was their response? David G-SHSH > A quick google suggests that "insolvent trading" as a crime is a > British thing, popping up also in Australia and NZ, but not in the > U.S. However, legal articles outside the U.S. cite that it's > typically very difficult to prove insolvency in a small company as > being known beyond a reasonable doubt to the defendant, and further > that his actions were done with criminal intent. As a civil matter in > the U.S., on a failed UK company, the case is a loser alone on the > issue of enforceability of a judgment, and there may be no "U.S. > nexus" for our courts' jurisdiction anyway. > > Reg, > Fred F. > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:24:24 PM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Throttle Cables --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" To Patrick and Gerry, and any others who may reply, Many thanks for the lubricant info. I'm beginning to think perhaps I should go motorcycle, especially since they seem to have all the right parts! Much obliged. Ferg ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:52:40 PM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" << being an aircraft manufacturer is no way to get rich.>> Unless you're Boeing or Airbus and can rely on big government 'subsidies'. Oops, we'd better not go there! Or a very small aircraft company that can survive on G'mnt. start-up subsidies. Duncan McF do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill and Sue" Subject: Europa-List: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bill and Sue" > > > Carl has a good point- Like so many others I lost out from the demise of > EMIL not nearly so badly as some, perhaps if I had I would be more angry > and like most people. I simply don't know any of the detail of what > happened, but I'm pretty sure it could have been worse if Europa had > simply > disappeared leaving us without parts or even design information. > > If EMIL had pulled the plugs earlier I imagine there would have been > dismay > and accusations of premature action from builders left stranded as a > result. > Again, if you were to warn potential customers that the company is in > trouble it would inevitably become a self-fulfilling prophesy. There > seems > no way for any company to fail without there being innocent victims. > When I took the plunge and started building it was the way the kit flew > that > attracted me, but I was aware that so many aircraft manufacturers (not > just > kit producers) with excellent products have gone under leaving their > customers stranded. It seemed to me then, and still does, that the number > of > kits in circulation was a protection in itself -there are enough builders > to > make it attractive for someone to pick up the pieces -look how many people > were offering to supply parts when EMIL went under, even before E2004 was > formed. > > Judging by the number of aircraft companies that have floundered > financially > in the past, being an aircraft manufacturer is no way to get rich. (And > judging from the rates they charge, being an administrator sounds more > profitable!) > If the administrators have done their job properly -which must surely be > the > case as this sounds a pretty straightforward insolvency as these things > go- > the time for any form of legal action has long passed. The moneys gone. > > I don't know how much culpability Keith had in peoples losses, but it > seemed > to me that supplying free photos was a rather appropriate form of > community > service. A trust fund certainly isn't going to solve everything, but every > little helps. > We should all take some comfort from the fact that the success of the > design has meant that at least we are not all nursing unfinished and > unfinishable kits due to a lack of parts or information -something that > has > happened in the past. > Whether we are flying or still building, the continuing success of E2004 > is > very much in our interests. > > Cheers > > Bill > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:11 PM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: keith wilson --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" Is 'B' a cheap way of staying out of prison? Duncan Mcf. do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rowland Carson" Subject: Europa-List: keith wilson > --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson > > I have not suffered any financial loss as a result of the collaps of > EMIL, but I've been trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who > has, and wondering which situation I'd prefer: > > (A) Keith Wilson is in prison, and there is no prospect of any of my > money being returned. > > (B) Keith Wilson is free to carry out gainful employment, and has > agreed that a proportion of his earnings be diverted to a fund > (administered by an independent 3rd party) devoted to repaying money > to those who paid EMIL for stuff and didnt get it. > > Seems to me that (B) would be favourite; preferring (A) seems to be > cutting off my nose to spite my face. However, I recognise that > without direct experience of the situation, I may be wrong in my > perception. > > regards > > Rowland > -- > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:53:17 PM PST US From: lmorgan822@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Europa-List: keith wilson --> Europa-List message posted by: lmorgan822@aol.com Something like plan B would have to be court supervised and controlled as KW doesn't have the honesty to do it himself. -----Original Message----- From: Rowland Carson Subject: Europa-List: keith wilson --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson I have not suffered any financial loss as a result of the collaps of EMIL, but I've been trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who has, and wondering which situation I'd prefer: (A) Keith Wilson is in prison, and there is no prospect of any of my money being returned. (B) Keith Wilson is free to carry out gainful employment, and has agreed that a proportion of his earnings be diverted to a fund (administered by an independent 3rd party) devoted to repaying money to those who paid EMIL for stuff and didnt get it. Seems to me that (B) would be favourite; preferring (A) seems to be cutting off my nose to spite my face. However, I recognise that without direct experience of the situation, I may be wrong in my perception. regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson PFA #16532 | 750 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail