Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:08 AM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Chris Beck)
2. 08:00 AM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Jim Thursby)
3. 08:50 AM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] ()
4. 10:30 AM - Re: wheel landings SORRY! (Fred Klein)
5. 10:39 AM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Robert Berube)
6. 12:07 PM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (BEBERRY@aol.com)
7. 12:46 PM - Trikes vs Monos (irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu)
8. 12:51 PM - AW: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Europa (Alfred Buess))
9. 01:41 PM - Just A Few More Days Left; Lagging Behind Last Year... (Matt Dralle)
10. 01:46 PM - Re: wheel landings SORRY! (DuaneFamly@aol.com)
11. 02:11 PM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Duncan McFadyean)
12. 03:21 PM - conventional gear [was: wheel landings] (Rowland Carson)
13. 03:54 PM - Re: Trikes vs Monos (R.C.Harrison)
14. 04:28 PM - Re: Trikes vs Monos (Paul McAllister)
15. 05:22 PM - Re: Trikes vs Monos (Jeff B)
16. 06:18 PM - Trikes Aux-tank (Cliff Shaw)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Chris Beck <n9zes@verizon.net>
Jim Thursby wrote:
>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Thursby" <jthursby@tampabay.rr.com>
>
>Hi Chris,
>If you are that gung ho, by all means try it yourself but don't say you
>weren't warned. I thought I was smarter than Ivan Shaw once too. Against
>his wishes (and unknown to) I spent the better part of two hours trying to
>wheel land one of the company planes. I've been told it was some of the
>most entertaining stuff the controllers at Lakeland had ever seen. It will
>squeak the main on ever so gently with just a touch of power, then the tail
>slams to the runway and you are rewarded for your carelessness with another
>chance or two at landing it properly. If you recover from the resulting
>three to ten foot bounce and haven't clipped your propeller, and if you
>haven't ground looped it, and if you haven't stalled and dropped it in, you
>can attempt another landing. I tried many times and NEVER got it to stay on
>the ground. If you must attempt wheel landings in a tail dragger aircraft
>please buy or build an RV and save the Europa community from losing another
>aircraft from the ranks. And the prop is VERY close when on the main wheel
>with the plane in a slight nose down attitude.
>
> Jim T.
>
>
---> Hi, Jim! I recall Paul McAllister making a comment regarding this
when I was flying with him in his Mono some time ago. He said you told
him it was impossible to wheel land a monowheel. Some of these landing
issues might be related to the position of the main gear in relation to
the CG. To wit: Cessna 140s had two gear versions, straight and swept
forward, with the axle centerline 3" farther forward. My flight
instructor made the comment that my 140, which has the straight gear,
was much easier to wheel land than the 140 that the FBO owns, which has
the swept gear. Indeed, the extra weight behind the CG with the swept
gear would make the tail tend to rotate downward with any vertical
velocity component when the aircraft touches down on the main(s). As
the tail drops, presto, you're flying again. I've pulled a few of those
with my 140, and usually after the nice *sproing* from the spring gear
and finding yourself 10' high with no speed, firewall it and go-around
for another try.
I'll have to look at some drawings of the mono to see where the main
gear axle CL is compared to the LE of the wing. That might be a clue.
Nevertheless, I find this most interesting discussion, and good
prevention of having our prop eat the ground someday.
Chris
A159
Message 2
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Subject: | wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Thursby" <jthursby@tampabay.rr.com>
Yes, Take the word of a man responsible for the demise of a couple warp
drive blades! ;-)
Jim T.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Beck
Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?]
--> Europa-List message posted by: Chris Beck <n9zes@verizon.net>
Jim Thursby wrote:
>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Thursby"
>--> <jthursby@tampabay.rr.com>
>
>Hi Chris,
>If you are that gung ho, by all means try it yourself but don't say you
>weren't warned. I thought I was smarter than Ivan Shaw once too.
>Against his wishes (and unknown to) I spent the better part of two
>hours trying to wheel land one of the company planes. I've been told it
was some of the
>most entertaining stuff the controllers at Lakeland had ever seen. It
will
>squeak the main on ever so gently with just a touch of power, then the
>tail slams to the runway and you are rewarded for your carelessness
>with another chance or two at landing it properly. If you recover from
>the resulting three to ten foot bounce and haven't clipped your
>propeller, and if you haven't ground looped it, and if you haven't
>stalled and dropped it in, you can attempt another landing. I tried
>many times and NEVER got it to stay on the ground. If you must attempt
>wheel landings in a tail dragger aircraft please buy or build an RV and
>save the Europa community from losing another aircraft from the ranks.
>And the prop is VERY close when on the main wheel with the plane in a
slight nose down attitude.
>
> Jim T.
>
>
---> Hi, Jim! I recall Paul McAllister making a comment regarding this
when I was flying with him in his Mono some time ago. He said you told him
it was impossible to wheel land a monowheel. Some of these landing issues
might be related to the position of the main gear in relation to the CG. To
wit: Cessna 140s had two gear versions, straight and swept forward, with
the axle centerline 3" farther forward. My flight instructor made the
comment that my 140, which has the straight gear, was much easier to wheel
land than the 140 that the FBO owns, which has the swept gear. Indeed, the
extra weight behind the CG with the swept gear would make the tail tend to
rotate downward with any vertical velocity component when the aircraft
touches down on the main(s). As the tail drops, presto, you're flying
again. I've pulled a few of those with my 140, and usually after the nice
*sproing* from the spring gear and finding yourself 10' high with no speed,
firewall it and go-around for another try.
I'll have to look at some drawings of the mono to see where the main gear
axle CL is compared to the LE of the wing. That might be a clue.
Nevertheless, I find this most interesting discussion, and good prevention
of having our prop eat the ground someday.
Chris
A159
Message 3
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Subject: | wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] |
--> Europa-List message posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Curious, can you wheel land a conventional gear Europa with sucess?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: wheel landings SORRY! |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
On Friday, November 25, 2005, at 01:35 PM, DuaneFamly@aol.com wrote:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com
>
> Good Day All,
>
> I have been reading with great interest all the messages on this
> subject...and I have only one thing to say.......CONVENTIONAL
> GEAR!!!!!!!
> This option gives all the landing options that the mono has but with
> better
> stability. Speed seems to not be a problem. And can be rigged by one
> person.
>
> Thank you Bob Berube.
>
> Mike Duane A207A
Point well made Mike...BTW, do you have a figure for the net change in:
- airframe weight, and
- performance (i.e., airspeeds) (from Bob B.)
Fred
A194
Message 5
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Subject: | wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Robert Berube" <bberube@tampabay.rr.com>
Conventional geared Europa's do very well with wheel landings.
Bob Berube
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us
Subject: RE: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?]
--> Europa-List message posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Curious, can you wheel land a conventional gear Europa with sucess?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] |
--> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Robert Berube" <bberube@tampabay.rr.com>
Conventional geared Europa's do very well with wheel landings.
Bob Berube
I have never seen a conventional gear Europa. Presumbly you have one in
Florida? Any photos? I quite like the idea and wonder if there are possible
conversions to be done. Probably too much in the way of weight shift etc to be
a
viable project?
Patrick
Message 7
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12, 2005) at 11/27/2005 03:46:02 PM,
Serialize complete at 11/27/2005 03:46:02 PM
--> Europa-List message posted by: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu
Alan quotes Andy to the effect that the trike always ran out of petrol
first in a cross country....
Might have something to do with the extra tank capacity available for
mono's whilst we still
wait for it in trike's. I wouldn't mind an extra 10 US gallons (though my
bladder might), especially
to meet IFR fuel reserve requirements (i.e., from primary to alternate
airport, thence 45 min
at standard cruise).
Also, having flown a bit with Jim, I could vouch for him not being able to
wheel land ;-),
but then I certainly could not and would not try.
Ira N224XS Trike
Currently down for an unresolved oil temp/pressure problem
Message 8
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|
Subject: | wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Europa (Alfred Buess)" <ykibuess@bluewin.ch>
A nice Europa taildragger (with a BMW engine) can be seen at
http://ccande.isuisse.com/europa.htm
Unfortunatly this aircraft was destroyed in a hangar fire some time ago.
Alfred Buess
-----Ursprngliche Nachricht-----
Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von
BEBERRY@aol.com
Gesendet: Sonntag, 27. November 2005 21:04
An: europa-list@matronics.com
Betreff: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa
XS?]
--> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Robert Berube"
--> <bberube@tampabay.rr.com>
Conventional geared Europa's do very well with wheel landings.
Bob Berube
I have never seen a conventional gear Europa. Presumbly you have one in
Florida? Any photos? I quite like the idea and wonder if there are
possible
conversions to be done. Probably too much in the way of weight shift
etc to be a
viable project?
Patrick
Message 9
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|
Subject: | Just A Few More Days Left; Lagging Behind Last Year... |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
There are just four more days left of this year's List Fund Raiser! Response has
been very good, but we are behind last year as far as the number of people
that have made a Contribution and as a percentage of the total number of subscribers.
Please remember that there isn't any sort of commercial advertising on the Lists
and the *only* means I have of keeping these Lists running through your Contributions
during this Fund Raiser.
Please make a Contribution today!
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
do not archive
Message 10
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|
Subject: | Re: wheel landings SORRY! |
--> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com
Fred,
I am still building so I will leave this question to Bob Berube (I hope
lurking Bob) because if anyone knows it, then he would.
Mike Duane A207
Redding, California
Do Not Archive
Message 11
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|
Subject: | Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Or one that still flies at:
http://www.devonstrut.co.uk/pages/gallery/130.html
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Europa (Alfred Buess)" <ykibuess@bluewin.ch>
Subject: AW: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?]
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Europa (Alfred Buess)"
> <ykibuess@bluewin.ch>
>
> A nice Europa taildragger (with a BMW engine) can be seen at
> http://ccande.isuisse.com/europa.htm
> Unfortunatly this aircraft was destroyed in a hangar fire some time ago.
>
> Alfred Buess
>
>
> -----Ursprngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von
> BEBERRY@aol.com
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 27. November 2005 21:04
> An: europa-list@matronics.com
> Betreff: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa
> XS?]
>
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com
>
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Robert Berube"
> --> <bberube@tampabay.rr.com>
>
> Conventional geared Europa's do very well with wheel landings.
>
> Bob Berube
>
>
> I have never seen a conventional gear Europa. Presumbly you have one in
>
> Florida? Any photos? I quite like the idea and wonder if there are
> possible
> conversions to be done. Probably too much in the way of weight shift
> etc to be a
> viable project?
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
Message 12
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|
Subject: | conventional gear [was: wheel landings] |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson <rowil@clara.net>
At 2005-11-27 15:03 -0500 BEBERRY@aol.com wrote:
>I have never seen a conventional gear Europa
Patrick - check in the "member list" folder in your Europa Club CD -
there's an Excel file of all known flying Europas (also available to
download on the Europa Club website). In there you'll see 6
conventional-gear Europas:
C-GUNN
G-CCRJ
G-IVET
G-NIGL
HB-YIA
N712EA
- but there may be others I don't know about (all data welcome!).
You can use the other listings on the CD to track down the owners of
those aircraft & make contact if you wish.
Also, if you look in the grafix folder, then in the 3 view drawing
folder, you'll find an AutoCAD-type file showing a conventional gear
mod.
Another folder in the grafix folder is called berube conv gear - no
prizes for guessing what that contains pictures of .....
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson (retiring) Europa Club Membership Secretary - email for info!
| Europa 435 G-ROWI (750 hours building) PFA #16532
| e-mail <memsec@europaclub.org.uk> website <www.europaclub.org.uk>
Message 13
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|
--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Hi! Ira.
I have a 9 IMP gallon full width long range tank across my Trike behind
the main tank bulkhead. It siphons in to the main tank and utilises the
Europa supplied priming pump to initiate the siphon.
Not wishing to leave an "Achilles heel" opportunity ...some would say
with a Jabiru 3300 that I need it !
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu
Subject: Europa-List: Trikes vs Monos
--> Europa-List message posted by: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu
Alan quotes Andy to the effect that the trike always ran out of petrol
first in a cross country....
Might have something to do with the extra tank capacity available for
mono's whilst we still
wait for it in trike's. I wouldn't mind an extra 10 US gallons (though
my
bladder might), especially
to meet IFR fuel reserve requirements (i.e., from primary to alternate
airport, thence 45 min
at standard cruise).
Also, having flown a bit with Jim, I could vouch for him not being able
to
wheel land ;-),
but then I certainly could not and would not try.
Ira N224XS Trike
Currently down for an unresolved oil temp/pressure problem
Message 14
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|
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
Hi all
On the topic of fuel, for longer cross country trips I have a 6 gallon
outboard fuel tank that is strapped in the baggage bay. This is to give me
IFR reserves for a 3.5 hour leg.
I have a primer bulb and a simple syphon which seems to work well.
Paul
N378PJ ~ 350 hours and still grinning
do not archive
"R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Hi! Ira.
I have a 9 IMP gallon full width long range tank across my Trike behind
the main tank bulkhead. It siphons in to the main tank and utilises the
Europa supplied priming pump to initiate the siphon.
Not wishing to leave an "Achilles heel" opportunity ...some would say
with a Jabiru 3300 that I need it !
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300
Message 15
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|
Subject: | Re: Trikes vs Monos |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Jeff B <topglock@cox.net>
Paul,
How is the siphon hose hooked to the onboard tank?
Jeff - N55XS
110 hrs
Paul McAllister wrote:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
>
> Hi all
>
> On the topic of fuel, for longer cross country trips I have a 6 gallon
> outboard fuel tank that is strapped in the baggage bay. This is to give me
> IFR reserves for a 3.5 hour leg.
>
> I have a primer bulb and a simple syphon which seems to work well.
>
> Paul
>
> N378PJ ~ 350 hours and still grinning
>
> do not archive
>
> "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
>
> Hi! Ira.
> I have a 9 IMP gallon full width long range tank across my Trike behind
> the main tank bulkhead. It siphons in to the main tank and utilises the
> Europa supplied priming pump to initiate the siphon.
> Not wishing to leave an "Achilles heel" opportunity ...some would say
> with a Jabiru 3300 that I need it !
> Regards
>
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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|
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" <flyinggpa@comcast.net>
All
I worked a little in the hanger for John Hurst in August of 03. One of the things
he had be do was to install an Aux-tank in the factory tri-gear demonstrator.
He told me that the company was developing it so the tri-gear had a long ranger
tank too. The tri-gear has a flat bed in the baggage bay, as you all know.
The new tank was much wider and just laid on the baggage bay and was strapped
down similar to the original aux-tank.
I don't know whether the tank was ever put into the inventory, but the kit I installed
was written up like a regular Europa kit.
If any one is really interested I suggest they call Andy.
Cliff Shaw
1041 Euclid ave.
Edmonds, WA 98020
425 776 5555
http://www.europaowners.org/WileE
----- Original Message -----
From: R.C.Harrison
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 3:53 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Trikes vs Monos
--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Hi! Ira.
I have a 9 IMP gallon full width long range tank across my Trike behind
the main tank bulkhead. It siphons in to the main tank and utilises the
Europa supplied priming pump to initiate the siphon.
Not wishing to leave an "Achilles heel" opportunity ...some would say
with a Jabiru 3300 that I need it !
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Europa-List: Trikes vs Monos
--> Europa-List message posted by: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu
Alan quotes Andy to the effect that the trike always ran out of petrol
first in a cross country....
Might have something to do with the extra tank capacity available for
mono's whilst we still
wait for it in trike's. I wouldn't mind an extra 10 US gallons (though
my
bladder might), especially
to meet IFR fuel reserve requirements (i.e., from primary to alternate
airport, thence 45 min
at standard cruise).
Also, having flown a bit with Jim, I could vouch for him not being able
to
wheel land ;-),
but then I certainly could not and would not try.
Ira N224XS Trike
Currently down for an unresolved oil temp/pressure problem
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