---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 11/27/05: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:08 AM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Chris Beck) 2. 08:00 AM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Jim Thursby) 3. 08:50 AM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] () 4. 10:30 AM - Re: wheel landings SORRY! (Fred Klein) 5. 10:39 AM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Robert Berube) 6. 12:07 PM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (BEBERRY@aol.com) 7. 12:46 PM - Trikes vs Monos (irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu) 8. 12:51 PM - AW: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Europa (Alfred Buess)) 9. 01:41 PM - Just A Few More Days Left; Lagging Behind Last Year... (Matt Dralle) 10. 01:46 PM - Re: wheel landings SORRY! (DuaneFamly@aol.com) 11. 02:11 PM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Duncan McFadyean) 12. 03:21 PM - conventional gear [was: wheel landings] (Rowland Carson) 13. 03:54 PM - Re: Trikes vs Monos (R.C.Harrison) 14. 04:28 PM - Re: Trikes vs Monos (Paul McAllister) 15. 05:22 PM - Re: Trikes vs Monos (Jeff B) 16. 06:18 PM - Trikes Aux-tank (Cliff Shaw) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:25 AM PST US From: Chris Beck Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: Chris Beck Jim Thursby wrote: >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Thursby" > >Hi Chris, >If you are that gung ho, by all means try it yourself but don't say you >weren't warned. I thought I was smarter than Ivan Shaw once too. Against >his wishes (and unknown to) I spent the better part of two hours trying to >wheel land one of the company planes. I've been told it was some of the >most entertaining stuff the controllers at Lakeland had ever seen. It will >squeak the main on ever so gently with just a touch of power, then the tail >slams to the runway and you are rewarded for your carelessness with another >chance or two at landing it properly. If you recover from the resulting >three to ten foot bounce and haven't clipped your propeller, and if you >haven't ground looped it, and if you haven't stalled and dropped it in, you >can attempt another landing. I tried many times and NEVER got it to stay on >the ground. If you must attempt wheel landings in a tail dragger aircraft >please buy or build an RV and save the Europa community from losing another >aircraft from the ranks. And the prop is VERY close when on the main wheel >with the plane in a slight nose down attitude. > > Jim T. > > ---> Hi, Jim! I recall Paul McAllister making a comment regarding this when I was flying with him in his Mono some time ago. He said you told him it was impossible to wheel land a monowheel. Some of these landing issues might be related to the position of the main gear in relation to the CG. To wit: Cessna 140s had two gear versions, straight and swept forward, with the axle centerline 3" farther forward. My flight instructor made the comment that my 140, which has the straight gear, was much easier to wheel land than the 140 that the FBO owns, which has the swept gear. Indeed, the extra weight behind the CG with the swept gear would make the tail tend to rotate downward with any vertical velocity component when the aircraft touches down on the main(s). As the tail drops, presto, you're flying again. I've pulled a few of those with my 140, and usually after the nice *sproing* from the spring gear and finding yourself 10' high with no speed, firewall it and go-around for another try. I'll have to look at some drawings of the mono to see where the main gear axle CL is compared to the LE of the wing. That might be a clue. Nevertheless, I find this most interesting discussion, and good prevention of having our prop eat the ground someday. Chris A159 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:00:41 AM PST US From: "Jim Thursby" Subject: RE: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Thursby" Yes, Take the word of a man responsible for the demise of a couple warp drive blades! ;-) Jim T. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Beck Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: Chris Beck Jim Thursby wrote: >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Thursby" >--> > >Hi Chris, >If you are that gung ho, by all means try it yourself but don't say you >weren't warned. I thought I was smarter than Ivan Shaw once too. >Against his wishes (and unknown to) I spent the better part of two >hours trying to wheel land one of the company planes. I've been told it was some of the >most entertaining stuff the controllers at Lakeland had ever seen. It will >squeak the main on ever so gently with just a touch of power, then the >tail slams to the runway and you are rewarded for your carelessness >with another chance or two at landing it properly. If you recover from >the resulting three to ten foot bounce and haven't clipped your >propeller, and if you haven't ground looped it, and if you haven't >stalled and dropped it in, you can attempt another landing. I tried >many times and NEVER got it to stay on the ground. If you must attempt >wheel landings in a tail dragger aircraft please buy or build an RV and >save the Europa community from losing another aircraft from the ranks. >And the prop is VERY close when on the main wheel with the plane in a slight nose down attitude. > > Jim T. > > ---> Hi, Jim! I recall Paul McAllister making a comment regarding this when I was flying with him in his Mono some time ago. He said you told him it was impossible to wheel land a monowheel. Some of these landing issues might be related to the position of the main gear in relation to the CG. To wit: Cessna 140s had two gear versions, straight and swept forward, with the axle centerline 3" farther forward. My flight instructor made the comment that my 140, which has the straight gear, was much easier to wheel land than the 140 that the FBO owns, which has the swept gear. Indeed, the extra weight behind the CG with the swept gear would make the tail tend to rotate downward with any vertical velocity component when the aircraft touches down on the main(s). As the tail drops, presto, you're flying again. I've pulled a few of those with my 140, and usually after the nice *sproing* from the spring gear and finding yourself 10' high with no speed, firewall it and go-around for another try. I'll have to look at some drawings of the mono to see where the main gear axle CL is compared to the LE of the wing. That might be a clue. Nevertheless, I find this most interesting discussion, and good prevention of having our prop eat the ground someday. Chris A159 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:50:18 AM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] From: --> Europa-List message posted by: Curious, can you wheel land a conventional gear Europa with sucess? Thx. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:30:28 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings SORRY! From: Fred Klein --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein On Friday, November 25, 2005, at 01:35 PM, DuaneFamly@aol.com wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com > > Good Day All, > > I have been reading with great interest all the messages on this > subject...and I have only one thing to say.......CONVENTIONAL > GEAR!!!!!!! > This option gives all the landing options that the mono has but with > better > stability. Speed seems to not be a problem. And can be rigged by one > person. > > Thank you Bob Berube. > > Mike Duane A207A Point well made Mike...BTW, do you have a figure for the net change in: - airframe weight, and - performance (i.e., airspeeds) (from Bob B.) Fred A194 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:39:16 AM PST US From: "Robert Berube" Subject: RE: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: "Robert Berube" Conventional geared Europa's do very well with wheel landings. Bob Berube -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Subject: RE: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: Curious, can you wheel land a conventional gear Europa with sucess? Thx. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:07:01 PM PST US From: BEBERRY@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com --> Europa-List message posted by: "Robert Berube" Conventional geared Europa's do very well with wheel landings. Bob Berube I have never seen a conventional gear Europa. Presumbly you have one in Florida? Any photos? I quite like the idea and wonder if there are possible conversions to be done. Probably too much in the way of weight shift etc to be a viable project? Patrick ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:46:39 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Trikes vs Monos From: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu 12, 2005) at 11/27/2005 03:46:02 PM, Serialize complete at 11/27/2005 03:46:02 PM --> Europa-List message posted by: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu Alan quotes Andy to the effect that the trike always ran out of petrol first in a cross country.... Might have something to do with the extra tank capacity available for mono's whilst we still wait for it in trike's. I wouldn't mind an extra 10 US gallons (though my bladder might), especially to meet IFR fuel reserve requirements (i.e., from primary to alternate airport, thence 45 min at standard cruise). Also, having flown a bit with Jim, I could vouch for him not being able to wheel land ;-), but then I certainly could not and would not try. Ira N224XS Trike Currently down for an unresolved oil temp/pressure problem ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:51:48 PM PST US From: "Europa (Alfred Buess)" Subject: AW: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: "Europa (Alfred Buess)" A nice Europa taildragger (with a BMW engine) can be seen at http://ccande.isuisse.com/europa.htm Unfortunatly this aircraft was destroyed in a hangar fire some time ago. Alfred Buess -----Ursprngliche Nachricht----- Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von BEBERRY@aol.com Gesendet: Sonntag, 27. November 2005 21:04 An: europa-list@matronics.com Betreff: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com --> Europa-List message posted by: "Robert Berube" --> Conventional geared Europa's do very well with wheel landings. Bob Berube I have never seen a conventional gear Europa. Presumbly you have one in Florida? Any photos? I quite like the idea and wonder if there are possible conversions to be done. Probably too much in the way of weight shift etc to be a viable project? Patrick ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:41:19 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Europa-List: Just A Few More Days Left; Lagging Behind Last Year... --> Europa-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, There are just four more days left of this year's List Fund Raiser! Response has been very good, but we are behind last year as far as the number of people that have made a Contribution and as a percentage of the total number of subscribers. Please remember that there isn't any sort of commercial advertising on the Lists and the *only* means I have of keeping these Lists running through your Contributions during this Fund Raiser. Please make a Contribution today! http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft do not archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:46:16 PM PST US From: DuaneFamly@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings SORRY! --> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com Fred, I am still building so I will leave this question to Bob Berube (I hope lurking Bob) because if anyone knows it, then he would. Mike Duane A207 Redding, California Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:53 PM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" Or one that still flies at: http://www.devonstrut.co.uk/pages/gallery/130.html Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Europa (Alfred Buess)" Subject: AW: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Europa (Alfred Buess)" > > > A nice Europa taildragger (with a BMW engine) can be seen at > http://ccande.isuisse.com/europa.htm > Unfortunatly this aircraft was destroyed in a hangar fire some time ago. > > Alfred Buess > > > -----Ursprngliche Nachricht----- > Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Im Auftrag von > BEBERRY@aol.com > Gesendet: Sonntag, 27. November 2005 21:04 > An: europa-list@matronics.com > Betreff: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa > XS?] > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Robert Berube" > --> > > Conventional geared Europa's do very well with wheel landings. > > Bob Berube > > > I have never seen a conventional gear Europa. Presumbly you have one in > > Florida? Any photos? I quite like the idea and wonder if there are > possible > conversions to be done. Probably too much in the way of weight shift > etc to be a > viable project? > > Patrick > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:21:33 PM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: Europa-List: conventional gear [was: wheel landings] --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson At 2005-11-27 15:03 -0500 BEBERRY@aol.com wrote: >I have never seen a conventional gear Europa Patrick - check in the "member list" folder in your Europa Club CD - there's an Excel file of all known flying Europas (also available to download on the Europa Club website). In there you'll see 6 conventional-gear Europas: C-GUNN G-CCRJ G-IVET G-NIGL HB-YIA N712EA - but there may be others I don't know about (all data welcome!). You can use the other listings on the CD to track down the owners of those aircraft & make contact if you wish. Also, if you look in the grafix folder, then in the 3 view drawing folder, you'll find an AutoCAD-type file showing a conventional gear mod. Another folder in the grafix folder is called berube conv gear - no prizes for guessing what that contains pictures of ..... regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson (retiring) Europa Club Membership Secretary - email for info! | Europa 435 G-ROWI (750 hours building) PFA #16532 | e-mail website ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:29 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Trikes vs Monos --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! Ira. I have a 9 IMP gallon full width long range tank across my Trike behind the main tank bulkhead. It siphons in to the main tank and utilises the Europa supplied priming pump to initiate the siphon. Not wishing to leave an "Achilles heel" opportunity ...some would say with a Jabiru 3300 that I need it ! Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300 -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu Subject: Europa-List: Trikes vs Monos --> Europa-List message posted by: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu Alan quotes Andy to the effect that the trike always ran out of petrol first in a cross country.... Might have something to do with the extra tank capacity available for mono's whilst we still wait for it in trike's. I wouldn't mind an extra 10 US gallons (though my bladder might), especially to meet IFR fuel reserve requirements (i.e., from primary to alternate airport, thence 45 min at standard cruise). Also, having flown a bit with Jim, I could vouch for him not being able to wheel land ;-), but then I certainly could not and would not try. Ira N224XS Trike Currently down for an unresolved oil temp/pressure problem ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:28:21 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Trikes vs Monos --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Hi all On the topic of fuel, for longer cross country trips I have a 6 gallon outboard fuel tank that is strapped in the baggage bay. This is to give me IFR reserves for a 3.5 hour leg. I have a primer bulb and a simple syphon which seems to work well. Paul N378PJ ~ 350 hours and still grinning do not archive "R.C.Harrison" Hi! Ira. I have a 9 IMP gallon full width long range tank across my Trike behind the main tank bulkhead. It siphons in to the main tank and utilises the Europa supplied priming pump to initiate the siphon. Not wishing to leave an "Achilles heel" opportunity ...some would say with a Jabiru 3300 that I need it ! Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:58 PM PST US From: Jeff B Subject: Re: Europa-List: Trikes vs Monos --> Europa-List message posted by: Jeff B Paul, How is the siphon hose hooked to the onboard tank? Jeff - N55XS 110 hrs Paul McAllister wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" > > Hi all > > On the topic of fuel, for longer cross country trips I have a 6 gallon > outboard fuel tank that is strapped in the baggage bay. This is to give me > IFR reserves for a 3.5 hour leg. > > I have a primer bulb and a simple syphon which seems to work well. > > Paul > > N378PJ ~ 350 hours and still grinning > > do not archive > > "R.C.Harrison" > > Hi! Ira. > I have a 9 IMP gallon full width long range tank across my Trike behind > the main tank bulkhead. It siphons in to the main tank and utilises the > Europa supplied priming pump to initiate the siphon. > Not wishing to leave an "Achilles heel" opportunity ...some would say > with a Jabiru 3300 that I need it ! > Regards > > Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300 > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:25 PM PST US From: "Cliff Shaw" Subject: Europa-List: Trikes Aux-tank --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" All I worked a little in the hanger for John Hurst in August of 03. One of the things he had be do was to install an Aux-tank in the factory tri-gear demonstrator. He told me that the company was developing it so the tri-gear had a long ranger tank too. The tri-gear has a flat bed in the baggage bay, as you all know. The new tank was much wider and just laid on the baggage bay and was strapped down similar to the original aux-tank. I don't know whether the tank was ever put into the inventory, but the kit I installed was written up like a regular Europa kit. If any one is really interested I suggest they call Andy. Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE ----- Original Message ----- From: R.C.Harrison To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 3:53 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Trikes vs Monos --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! Ira. I have a 9 IMP gallon full width long range tank across my Trike behind the main tank bulkhead. It siphons in to the main tank and utilises the Europa supplied priming pump to initiate the siphon. Not wishing to leave an "Achilles heel" opportunity ...some would say with a Jabiru 3300 that I need it ! Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300 -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Europa-List: Trikes vs Monos --> Europa-List message posted by: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu Alan quotes Andy to the effect that the trike always ran out of petrol first in a cross country.... Might have something to do with the extra tank capacity available for mono's whilst we still wait for it in trike's. I wouldn't mind an extra 10 US gallons (though my bladder might), especially to meet IFR fuel reserve requirements (i.e., from primary to alternate airport, thence 45 min at standard cruise). Also, having flown a bit with Jim, I could vouch for him not being able to wheel land ;-), but then I certainly could not and would not try. Ira N224XS Trike Currently down for an unresolved oil temp/pressure problem