---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/28/05: 39 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:11 AM - Please Read - Who is "Matt Dralle" and What are "The Lists"...? (Matt Dralle) 2. 12:52 AM - Re: conventional gear [was: wheel landings] (BEBERRY@aol.com) 3. 02:08 AM - Re: conventional gear [was: wheel landings] (G-IANI) 4. 02:16 AM - Re: conventional gear [was: wheel landings] (BEBERRY@aol.com) 5. 02:20 AM - Re: Trikes Aux-tank (Michel Auvray) 6. 02:51 AM - Re: conventional gear [was: wheel landings] (Nigel Graham) 7. 05:21 AM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Jim Brown) 8. 06:33 AM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (nigel charles) 9. 06:38 AM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (BEBERRY@aol.com) 10. 06:42 AM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (BEBERRY@aol.com) 11. 07:39 AM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Cliff Shaw) 12. 08:28 AM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (nigel charles) 13. 08:53 AM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (BEBERRY@aol.com) 14. 08:54 AM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (BEBERRY@AOL.COM) 15. 11:23 AM - MG Core Closeouts (Jim Butcher) 16. 11:30 AM - Re: conventional gear [was: wheel landings] (Jac van Heeswijk) 17. 01:01 PM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Fred Fillinger) 18. 01:21 PM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Kingsley Hurst) 19. 02:16 PM - Landing light ref and source wanted to fit into outrigger fairings (Michael Scherf) 20. 02:32 PM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Mike Parkin) 21. 02:44 PM - woodcomp/kremen props [was: conventional gear] (Rowland Carson) 22. 02:53 PM - fuel system (gleinberger) 23. 03:00 PM - Re: Landing light ref and source wanted to fit into outrigger fa (SteveD) 24. 03:26 PM - Re: fuel system (D Wysong) 25. 03:41 PM - Re: fuel system (SteveD) 26. 04:14 PM - Re: woodcomp/kremen props [was: conventional gear] (R.C.Harrison) 27. 04:20 PM - Re: Landing light ref and source wanted to fit into outrigger fairings (Paul McAllister) 28. 04:32 PM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Jim Brown) 29. 04:58 PM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Jim Brown) 30. 05:13 PM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Garry) 31. 05:17 PM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Fred Fillinger) 32. 05:22 PM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (GLENN CROWDER) 33. 05:31 PM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Fred Fillinger) 34. 05:39 PM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (kbcarpenter@comcast.net) 35. 05:59 PM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Jeff B) 36. 07:09 PM - Re: Flying a heavy Europa XS? (JTHURSBY@tampabay.rr.com) 37. 07:24 PM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Paul McAllister) 38. 07:38 PM - mono/trike (JTHURSBY@tampabay.rr.com) 39. 11:34 PM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Mike Parkin) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:11:13 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Europa-List: Please Read - Who is "Matt Dralle" and What are "The Lists"...? --> Europa-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, Who is Matt Dralle and what exactly are these Lists? Well, I've been working in the information technology industry for over 20 years primarily in computer networking design and implementation. I've also had a rather extensive background in web development and CGI design during this period. I started the Matronics Email Lists back in 1990 with about 30 fellow RV builders from around the world. Since that time, I have added 50 other kinds of aircraft related Lists to the line up and numerous other List related services such as the Archives and Search Engine just to name a few. For the upmost in flexibility and reliability, I have chosen to run all of my own servers here locally. Other support systems include a 1 Gigabit, fully switched network infrastructure, a commercial-grade Netscreen firewall, a Barracuda spam filter, a local T1 Internet router, and a commercial business T1 Internet connection with static addressing. The computer servers found here include two, dual processor Xeon Linux systems dedicated to the email and web functions respectfully, and another P4 Linux system serving as a remote storage disk farm for the archives, databases, and for an on-line, hard drive-based backup system with 3.2 Terabytes of storage. This entire system is protected by multiple commercial-grade uninterrupted power supply (UPS) systems that assure the Lists are available even during a local power outage! I recently upgraded all of the computer racking infrastructure including new power feeds and dedicated air conditioning for the room that serves as the Computer Center for the Matronics Email Lists. Here's a new composite photo of the List Computer Center following this Summer's upgrades! http://www.matronics.com/MattDralle-ListComputerCenter.jpg As you can see, I take running these Lists very seriously and I am dedicated to providing an always-on, 24x7x365 experience for each and every Lister. But building and running this system isn't cheap. As I've stated before, I don't support any of these systems with commercial advertising on the Lists. It is supported 100% through List member Contributions! That means you... and you... and YOU! To that end, I hold a List Fund Raiser each November and ask that members make a small Contribution to support the continued operation and upgrade of this ever-expanding system. Its solely YOUR Contributions that keep it running! Please make a Contribution today to support these Lists! http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:52:39 AM PST US From: BEBERRY@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: conventional gear [was: wheel landings] --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com Thanks Rowland. Gerry sent me a pic of one and I am impressed. It looks a beautiful aeroplane. Patrick ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:08:44 AM PST US From: "G-IANI" Subject: RE: Europa-List: conventional gear [was: wheel landings] --> Europa-List message posted by: "G-IANI" Patrick If you want to find out more information on UK aircraft it is well worth trying http://www.caa.co.uk/ginfo. They now have photos of many aircraft. Unfortunately this will not help with G-CCRJ and G-NIGL as they are both far from completed. Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:16:52 AM PST US From: BEBERRY@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: conventional gear [was: wheel landings] --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com Thanks Ian, Patrick ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:20:25 AM PST US From: "Michel Auvray" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Trikes Aux-tank --> Europa-List message posted by: "Michel Auvray" Bonjour Cliff , Do you have other informations on this new auxiliary tank. I am interested Thanks, ======= le 28/11/2005, 03:16:26 vous criviez: ======= >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" > >All > >I worked a little in the hanger for John Hurst in August of 03. One of the things he had be do was to install an Aux-tank in the factory tri-gear demonstrator. He told me that the company was developing it so the tri-gear had a long ranger tank too. The tri-gear has a flat bed in the baggage bay, as you all know. The new tank was much wider and just laid on the baggage bay and was strapped down similar to the original aux-tank. > >I don't know whether the tank was ever put into the inventory, but the kit I installed was written up like a regular Europa kit. > >If any one is really interested I suggest they call Andy. > >Cliff Shaw >1041 Euclid ave. >Edmonds, WA 98020 >425 776 5555 >http://www.europaowners.org/WileE > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: R.C.Harrison > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 3:53 PM > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Trikes vs Monos > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" > > Hi! Ira. > I have a 9 IMP gallon full width long range tank across my Trike behind > the main tank bulkhead. It siphons in to the main tank and utilises the > Europa supplied priming pump to initiate the siphon. > Not wishing to leave an "Achilles heel" opportunity ...some would say > with a Jabiru 3300 that I need it ! > Regards > Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Trikes vs Monos > > --> Europa-List message posted by: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu > > Alan quotes Andy to the effect that the trike always ran out of petrol > first in a cross country.... > Might have something to do with the extra tank capacity available for > mono's whilst we still > wait for it in trike's. I wouldn't mind an extra 10 US gallons (though > my > bladder might), especially > to meet IFR fuel reserve requirements (i.e., from primary to alternate > airport, thence 45 min > at standard cruise). > > Also, having flown a bit with Jim, I could vouch for him not being able > to > wheel land ;-), > but then I certainly could not and would not try. > > > Ira N224XS Trike > Currently down for an unresolved oil temp/pressure problem > > = = = = = = = = = ========= = = = = = = = = = Michel Auvray mau11@free.fr 28/11/2005 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:51:41 AM PST US From: "Nigel Graham" Subject: Re: Europa-List: conventional gear [was: wheel landings] --> Europa-List message posted by: "Nigel Graham" Ahhhhh! ....but the carbon/Kevlar cross-member came out of the mould on Sunday, and very pretty it looks too. So technically .... I am getting a bit closer. Another ten years and I'll be there ;-) Nigel ----- Original Message ----- From: "G-IANI" Subject: RE: Europa-List: conventional gear [was: wheel landings] --> Europa-List message posted by: "G-IANI" Patrick If you want to find out more information on UK aircraft it is well worth trying http://www.caa.co.uk/ginfo. They now have photos of many aircraft. Unfortunately this will not help with G-CCRJ and G-NIGL as they are both far from completed. Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:21:56 AM PST US From: Jim Brown Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: Jim Brown Garry; You are painting a picture with a very large brush. One example; In 2001, or 2002, Europa had the Glider wings at Sun and Fun and had installed them on the Mono wheel. This was the first public showing of the glider wings installed on the mono wheel. Keith wanted to get pictures of the Tri-gears and a mono wheel in formation. So a photo shoot was put together. Jim Thursby flew a customers tri-gear, Clive flew the company tri-gear demonstrator, I flew our mono wheel, and Andy flew the company mono wheel with the long wings attached. All four planes were topped off with fuel. We were in the air over two hours with all four planes and the camera ship. After landing all four planes were refueled. The two tri-gear's took over two gallons each, more fuel than my mono wheel. I had used over a gallon more than the glider winged mono wheel. We were all at about the same airspeed, in the same area for the flight, so the conditions were the same on each aircraft. The tri-geared just simply burned more fuel. Jim Brown N398JB Garry wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Garry" > > I remain completely baffled as to why so many Europa pilots have chosen the > mono over the trigear when given a choice. There is absolutely zero > performance advantage to the mono, in rate of climb, in cruise speed, in > fuel burn, or whatever. The difference is that the mono is inheritantly > unstable in landing (and takeoff) configuration. Everyone (almost) else in > the aircraft business, both large and small, has abandon the taildragger > design, and no one else is building mono wheel planes. For the life of me I > cannot understand why Ivan thought he could be successful when the rest of > the world says it's an unstable design. The proof is in the results. > Europa mono's are ground looping, wheelbarrowing, bending props, running off > the tarmac, and generally destroying themselves with regularity. Perhaps > that is a smart marketing strategy........to design a product that requires > regular parts replacement and rebuilding, but as a pilot I'm not impressed. > I do acknowledge that there are a few among our ranks who get a certain > thrill out of placing themselves in danger on every flight, and love the > challenge of taming a wild and unpredictable beast. It makes for good chest > thumping and bragging rights at the local pub, but might I suggest that you > take up the (American) sport of bull riding. It's probably safer and more > satisfying than trying to land a mono. I'm not trying to stir up the ranks, > but simply trying to understand the motivation of choosing an unstable > design over a proper one. Both Europas are fabulous planes in the air, but > one operates on the ground in a proper fashion while the other acts like a > drunk and wounded gooney bird. Let's hear some logical and unemotional > arguments in favor of the mono. > > Trigear pilot > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Thursby" > To: > Subject: RE: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Thursby" > > > > > > Hi Chris, > > If you are that gung ho, by all means try it yourself but don't say you > > weren't warned. I thought I was smarter than Ivan Shaw once too. Against > > his wishes (and unknown to) I spent the better part of two hours trying > > to > > wheel land one of the company planes. I've been told it was some of the > > most entertaining stuff the controllers at Lakeland had ever seen. It > > will > > squeak the main on ever so gently with just a touch of power, then the > > tail > > slams to the runway and you are rewarded for your carelessness with > > another > > chance or two at landing it properly. If you recover from the resulting > > three to ten foot bounce and haven't clipped your propeller, and if you > > haven't ground looped it, and if you haven't stalled and dropped it in, > > you > > can attempt another landing. I tried many times and NEVER got it to stay > > on > > the ground. If you must attempt wheel landings in a tail dragger aircraft > > please buy or build an RV and save the Europa community from losing > > another > > aircraft from the ranks. And the prop is VERY close when on the main > > wheel > > with the plane in a slight nose down attitude. > > > > Jim T. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Beck > > To: europa-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] > > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Chris Beck > > > > Jim Brown wrote: > > > >>--> Europa-List message posted by: Jim Brown > >> > >>I would also suggest, to those of you who want to "TRY" to wheel land a > >>mono wheel, you need to do one thing first. With the engine off, have a > >>friend or helper raise the tail to normal flight attitude, then take a > >>look at how close the prop is to the ground or pavement. One bounce on > >>landing, and you may be buying new prop blades. > >> > >>The center of gravity is behind the mono wheel, which will make the > >>tail drop down, as soon as the wheel touches the runway, if you counter > >>with some forward stick, re-read the above paragraph. > >> > >> > >> > > Jim, what sort of clearance are we talking about?? 2"? 6"? I've got a > > mile on the 140. I'd have to be looking straight at the dirt to get the > > prop grounded. > > > > Regarding the C of G, it's the same issue on any taildragger. It's behind > > the mains, which causes the tail to drop when landing due to the inertia. > > Trick is to zero out the rate of descent just as the mains touch, then > > nail > > it with that bit of forward stick (as I'm sure you know very well from the > > Pitts). Again, is it strictly a prop clearance issue that prevents > > wheelies > > in the monowheel? Has this been beaten to death in the past where I can > > look it up in the archives? > > > > I'm just very curious about the mechanics of landing a monowheel. I've > > flown in a few different ones (a Classic and an XS). Now that I'm flying > > a > > tailwheel plan, I understand a lot more of what's going on. > > > > Chris > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:33:22 AM PST US From: "nigel charles" Subject: RE: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" Another benefit of the monowheel over the trigear is when it comes to strip operation. When the grass is soft conditions can prevent the trigear getting airborne due to increased rolling drag. This was proved when the trigear demonstrator was flown into a grass strip in northern England. With two on board it proved impossible to reach rotate speed on take-off. The only solution was to leave the passenger behind. On the same day the monowheel operated two up with no problems. Nigel Charles > > I remain completely baffled as to why so many Europa pilots have chosen > the > > mono over the trigear when given a choice. There is absolutely zero > > performance advantage to the mono, in rate of climb, in cruise speed, in > > fuel burn, or whatever. The difference is that the mono is inheritantly > > unstable in landing (and takeoff) configuration. Everyone (almost) else > in > > the aircraft business, both large and small, has abandon the taildragger > > design, and no one else is building mono wheel planes. For the life of > me I > > cannot understand why Ivan thought he could be successful when the rest > of > > the world says it's an unstable design. The proof is in the results. > > Europa mono's are ground looping, wheelbarrowing, bending props, running > off > > the tarmac, and generally destroying themselves with regularity. > Perhaps > > that is a smart marketing strategy........to design a product that > requires > > regular parts replacement and rebuilding, but as a pilot I'm not > impressed. > > I do acknowledge that there are a few among our ranks who get a certain > > thrill out of placing themselves in danger on every flight, and love the > > challenge of taming a wild and unpredictable beast. It makes for good > chest > > thumping and bragging rights at the local pub, but might I suggest that > you > > take up the (American) sport of bull riding. It's probably safer and > more > > satisfying than trying to land a mono. I'm not trying to stir up the > ranks, > > but simply trying to understand the motivation of choosing an unstable > > design over a proper one. Both Europas are fabulous planes in the air, > but > > one operates on the ground in a proper fashion while the other acts like > a > > drunk and wounded gooney bird. Let's hear some logical and unemotional > > arguments in favor of the mono. > > > > Trigear pilot > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jim Thursby" > > To: > > Subject: RE: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa > XS?] > > > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Thursby" > > > > > > > > > Hi Chris, > > > If you are that gung ho, by all means try it yourself but don't say > you > > > weren't warned. I thought I was smarter than Ivan Shaw once too. > Against > > > his wishes (and unknown to) I spent the better part of two hours > trying > > > to > > > wheel land one of the company planes. I've been told it was some of > the > > > most entertaining stuff the controllers at Lakeland had ever seen. > It > > > will > > > squeak the main on ever so gently with just a touch of power, then the > > > tail > > > slams to the runway and you are rewarded for your carelessness with > > > another > > > chance or two at landing it properly. If you recover from the > resulting > > > three to ten foot bounce and haven't clipped your propeller, and if > you > > > haven't ground looped it, and if you haven't stalled and dropped it > in, > > > you > > > can attempt another landing. I tried many times and NEVER got it to > stay > > > on > > > the ground. If you must attempt wheel landings in a tail dragger > aircraft > > > please buy or build an RV and save the Europa community from losing > > > another > > > aircraft from the ranks. And the prop is VERY close when on the main > > > wheel > > > with the plane in a slight nose down attitude. > > > > > > Jim T. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > > > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris > Beck > > > To: europa-list@matronics.com > > > Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa > XS?] > > > > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Chris Beck > > > > > > Jim Brown wrote: > > > > > >>--> Europa-List message posted by: Jim Brown > > >> > > >>I would also suggest, to those of you who want to "TRY" to wheel land > a > > >>mono wheel, you need to do one thing first. With the engine off, have > a > > >>friend or helper raise the tail to normal flight attitude, then take a > > >>look at how close the prop is to the ground or pavement. One bounce on > > >>landing, and you may be buying new prop blades. > > >> > > >>The center of gravity is behind the mono wheel, which will make the > > >>tail drop down, as soon as the wheel touches the runway, if you > counter > > >>with some forward stick, re-read the above paragraph. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Jim, what sort of clearance are we talking about?? 2"? 6"? I've got > a > > > mile on the 140. I'd have to be looking straight at the dirt to get > the > > > prop grounded. > > > > > > Regarding the C of G, it's the same issue on any taildragger. It's > behind > > > the mains, which causes the tail to drop when landing due to the > inertia. > > > Trick is to zero out the rate of descent just as the mains touch, then > > > nail > > > it with that bit of forward stick (as I'm sure you know very well from > the > > > Pitts). Again, is it strictly a prop clearance issue that prevents > > > wheelies > > > in the monowheel? Has this been beaten to death in the past where I > can > > > look it up in the archives? > > > > > > I'm just very curious about the mechanics of landing a monowheel. > I've > > > flown in a few different ones (a Classic and an XS). Now that I'm > flying > > > a > > > tailwheel plan, I understand a lot more of what's going on. > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:11 AM PST US From: BEBERRY@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com In 2001, or 2002, Europa had the Glider wings at Sun and Fun and had installed them on the Mono wheel. This was the first public showing of the glider wings installed on the mono wheel. Keith wanted to get pictures of the Tri-gears and a mono wheel in formation. So a photo shoot was put together. Jim Thursby flew a customers tri-gear, Clive flew the company tri-gear demonstrator, I flew our mono wheel, and Andy flew the company mono wheel with the long wings attached. All four planes were topped off with fuel................... .............................. Jim, An interesting comparison. I think your general assumptions are probably correct but the actual fuel usage for a Tri Gear of just over 1 gall i.e. (assuming U.S. gallons) of some 4 litres per hour is a bit enviable! Were any of the Tri Gears fitted with speed kits and do you or anyone else have figures which prove - or otherwise- the claim that a speed kit will give 10 knots more, or looked at another way, use less fuel?. Does the speed kit go anyway towards getting the Tri Gear fuel usage anywhere down towards the Mono? Patrick ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:42:24 AM PST US From: BEBERRY@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com Another benefit of the monowheel over the trigear is when it comes to strip operation. When the grass is soft conditions can prevent the trigear getting airborne due to increased rolling drag. This was proved when the trigear demonstrator was flown into a grass strip in northern England. With two on board it proved impossible to reach rotate speed on take-off. The only solution was to leave the passenger behind. On the same day the monowheel operated two up with no problems.................... Nigel Charles Interesting Nigel - but what about the respective propellers? I would have thought that props would make a lot more difference to acceleration than the type of undercarriage. Patrick ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:25 AM PST US From: "Cliff Shaw" Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" Patrick I have flown my Europa both ways. I converted to a tri-gear about 22 hours of flight. I had installed fairing around the large main wheel. I had wheel pant on the tail wheel and on the outrigger. I used GPS and recorded 151 mph on a couple of different days. Now as a tri-gear with speed kit on everything, just as I had as a mono, the plane flies 153 mph. I have not published these number before because I had no explanation. But now I think I have it figured out. My Rotax 912S in now fully broke in. I think it is running stronger. Your agree? I do know that there was a big difference when adding the gear fairings. Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE ----- Original Message ----- From: BEBERRY@aol.com To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 6:37 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com In 2001, or 2002, Europa had the Glider wings at Sun and Fun and had installed them on the Mono wheel. This was the first public showing of the glider wings installed on the mono wheel. Keith wanted to get pictures of the Tri-gears and a mono wheel in formation. So a photo shoot was put together. Jim Thursby flew a customers tri-gear, Clive flew the company tri-gear demonstrator, I flew our mono wheel, and Andy flew the company mono wheel with the long wings attached. All four planes were topped off with fuel................... .............................. Jim, An interesting comparison. I think your general assumptions are probably correct but the actual fuel usage for a Tri Gear of just over 1 gall i.e. (assuming U.S. gallons) of some 4 litres per hour is a bit enviable! Were any of the Tri Gears fitted with speed kits and do you or anyone else have figures which prove - or otherwise- the claim that a speed kit will give 10 knots more, or looked at another way, use less fuel?. Does the speed kit go anyway towards getting the Tri Gear fuel usage anywhere down towards the Mono? Patrick ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:28:57 AM PST US From: "nigel charles" Subject: RE: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" When the ground is soft or rough the rolling resistance can be far more significant than prop or engine. This is easily observed by the increased rpm needed just to get the aircraft moving from a standstill. Nosewheels in particular can suffer over soft or rough terrain. Taildraggers or monowheels also have a small advantage in that the positive wing incidence provides lift even from fast taxi speeds reducing wheel loading and therefore rolling drag. In the particular case in question the monowheel was using a ground adjustable prop and the 80hp engine. I do not know the trigear configuration but it was unlikely to be disadvantaged in this respect. Nigel > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BEBERRY@aol.com > Sent: 28 November 2005 14:42 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] > > --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com > > > > Another benefit of the monowheel over the trigear is when it comes to > strip operation. When the grass is soft conditions can prevent the > trigear getting airborne due to increased rolling drag. This was proved > when the trigear demonstrator was flown into a grass strip in northern > England. With two on board it proved impossible to reach rotate speed on > take-off. The only solution was to leave the passenger behind. On the > same day the monowheel operated two up with no > problems.................... > > Nigel Charles > > > Interesting Nigel - but what about the respective propellers? I would > have > thought that props would make a lot more difference to acceleration than > the > type of undercarriage. > > Patrick > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:53:26 AM PST US From: BEBERRY@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com In a message dated 28/11/2005 15:43:57 GMT Standard Time, flyinggpa@comcast.net writes: I have flown my Europa both ways. I converted to a tri-gear about 22 hours of flight. I had installed fairing around the large main wheel. I had wheel pant on the tail wheel and on the outrigger. I used GPS and recorded 151 mph on a couple of different days. Now as a tri-gear with speed kit on everything, just as I had as a mono, the plane flies 153 mph. ................... Cliff...useful info. I am in the middle of a longish renovation and upgrade (Autopilot etc) and speed kit so will not have the opportunity to do any tests for some time. Thanks Patrick (Tri gear 914) ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:54:12 AM PST US From: BEBERRY@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com Nigel - agree your points. I had no trouble getting off grass fairly smartish with the old warp drive prop and 914 and have not got to the flight test stage as yet with the new Arplast VP. Patrick ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:23:17 AM PST US From: "Jim Butcher" Subject: Europa-List: MG Core Closeouts --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Butcher" We are working on our MG wings. It appears that our aileron and airbrake cores have not been cut to make the pre cut close outs. Our airbrake cores measure 74 inches and our aileron cores measure 87 1/2 inches in length. Can someone with completed wings verify the length of their completed ailerons and airbrakes for us? Thank you. Jim & Heather Butcher A185 N241BW short wings flying ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:41 AM PST US From: "Jac van Heeswijk" Subject: Re: Europa-List: conventional gear [was: wheel landings] --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jac van Heeswijk" Rowland, I am about to fly. The airplane is complete and all the paperwork is on its way. The first flight is planned for the spring (April/May) of 2006. I have a request to you: Are you able (and willing) to mail me a survey of the Europa's that are flying with a 912S Rotax engine and a Woodcomp (or Kremen) propeller type SR 200 (3 blades). You would do me a great favour since dutch CAA is asking for it. Thank you in advance. I hope to send you the news of my first flight within some months. Regards, Jack PS. Maybe it's usefull to adjust my record to the new situation: a.. Under Notes: 100 % complete and Expect to fly in the spring of 2006 b.. Registration: PH-LOB c.. Trailer: Open d.. Build hours: 4000 e.. Empty weight: not yet assigned f.. Modifications: Fuel tank hatch, finger brakes ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:01:32 PM PST US From: "Fred Fillinger" Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" > --> Europa-List message posted by: Jim Brown > ... > We were in the air over two hours with all four planes and the camera ship. > > After landing all four planes were refueled. The two tri-gear's took > over two gallons each, more fuel than my mono wheel. > The tri-geared just simply burned more fuel. I believe all we demonstrated here was a drag penalty for that particular tri-gear. If such speed penalty is say 7%, then that will take about 20% more fuel to keep up with the faster aircraft. IOW, a mono at 75% power flying abreast a trigear at 95% power. There may have also been aerodynamic build variations between the two planes having nothing to do with the gear legs, one of which is further fighting the prop. Reg, Fred F. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:21:57 PM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: RE: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" >Taildraggers or monowheels also have a small advantage in that the positive wing incidence provides lift even from fast taxi speeds reducing wheel loading and therefore rolling drag. And the thrust line of a tail dragger / Monowheel is inclined to the horizontal giving a vertical component of thrust which also helps reduce rolling drag. Just my 2c worth Kingsley Do not archive ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:16:57 PM PST US From: "Michael Scherf" Subject: Europa-List: Landing light ref and source wanted to fit into outrigger fairings --> Europa-List message posted by: "Michael Scherf" I heard there was a reference or suggestion circulated on this forum concerning a pair of landing lights small enough to fit onto the fwd face of the outrigger pants. I am thinking of something std from automotive supplies with std halogen bulbs 55watts. The smallest seen in supermarket was oval 70mm x 60mm but with too flat fwd glas (not very aerodynamical). Would much appreciate some comments/suggestions/pictures. Many thanks in advance Michael Scherf, Nr257 in Toulouse ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:32:40 PM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Parkin" A drag penalty for both particular tri-gears !! and the ones previously mentioned. chus. MP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Fillinger" Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: Jim Brown > >> ... >> We were in the air over two hours with all four planes and > the camera ship. >> >> After landing all four planes were refueled. The two > tri-gear's took >> over two gallons each, more fuel than my mono wheel. > >> The tri-geared just simply burned more fuel. > > I believe all we demonstrated here was a drag penalty for > that particular tri-gear. If such speed penalty is say 7%, > then that will take about 20% more fuel to keep up with the > faster aircraft. IOW, a mono at 75% power flying abreast a > trigear at 95% power. There may have also been aerodynamic > build variations between the two planes having nothing to do > with the gear legs, one of which is further fighting the > prop. > > Reg, > Fred F. > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:44:31 PM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: Europa-List: woodcomp/kremen props [was: conventional gear] --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson At 2005-11-28 20:30 +0100 Jac van Heeswijk wrote: >Are you able (and willing) to mail me a survey of the Europa's that >are flying with a 912S Rotax engine and a Woodcomp (or Kremen) >propeller type SR 200 (3 blades) I have sent a fuller response direct to Jack. As far as I know, the only Europas that have flown with any type of Kremen/Woodcomp propellers are: F-PSLY 912 G-XSDJ 914 HB-YIE 912S OK-EUR 914 (I just remembered that Tim Houlihan's G-BZTH with a 912 is getting one fitted, but not sure if it has flown or been cleared for flight with it yet.) In addition to Jack, builders 402, 438, 486, 529, 556, A064, A061 all plan to fit Kremen/Woodcomp props of some type. If anyone knows of any other Europas fitted with Kremen/Woodcomp props, please let us know! regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson (retiring) Europa Club Membership Secretary - email for info! | Europa 435 G-ROWI (750 hours building) PFA #16532 | e-mail website ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:15 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: fuel system From: "gleinberger" 0.64 REPLY_TO_EMPTY Reply-To: is empty --> Europa-List message posted by: "gleinberger" I am working on the cockpit module and am trying to assemble the parts for the fuel system. I want to use a 914 Turbo Rotex - do I need the Andair FS22D2 Duplex Valve? My understanding is that the 914 needs a return line. Also, I want to use the Van RV fuel sensor (capacitance) and hook it to the Blue Mt. EFIS/One (BM has a interface board that allows the hookup). Where do I get the Van Rv capacitance sensor? It doesn't seem to be listed separately on the Van Rv site. Any help is greatly appreciated. Gary Leinberger A237 Motorglider Trigear Lancaster, Pa. USA ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:00:05 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: RE: Landing light ref and source wanted to fit into outrigger fa From: "SteveD" --> Europa-List message posted by: "SteveD" Rob Neils' Europa's wheel pants landing lights. ---------------- This Email contains Photos or Attachments located at the following link: http://www.europaowners.org/viewtopic.php?p=8548#8548 ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:26:01 PM PST US From: D Wysong Subject: Re: Europa-List: fuel system --> Europa-List message posted by: D Wysong Gary - Look at the Princeton capacitive fuel probes available from Aircraft Spruce instead. They already contain the signal conditioning necessary to output a DC voltage proportional to fuel level... which makes them "plug and play" with the Blue Mountain unit. The Blue Mountain guys sell those converters to turn the "Van's" probes (raw capacitors) into Princeton-like probes. D ---------- gleinberger wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "gleinberger" > > I am working on the cockpit module and am trying to assemble the parts for the fuel system. I want to use a 914 Turbo Rotex - do I need the Andair FS22D2 Duplex Valve? My understanding is that the 914 needs a return line. > > Also, I want to use the Van RV fuel sensor (capacitance) and hook it to the Blue Mt. EFIS/One (BM has a interface board that allows the hookup). Where do I get the Van Rv capacitance sensor? It doesn't seem to be listed separately on the Van Rv site. > > Any help is greatly appreciated. > > Gary Leinberger > A237 Motorglider Trigear > Lancaster, Pa. USA > ---------------- > Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:56 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: RE: fuel system From: "SteveD" --> Europa-List message posted by: "SteveD" Hey Gary, We still need to get together, I'm off this week, email me if anything works out for you. OK... Vans probes: http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1133218810-264-750&browse=ei&product=ei-fuelgauge Europa USA used to sell Digital capacitive fuel level probe: Princeton Electronic Inc. 616 281-5193 Photos at: http://www.europaowners.org/album21 I think they're the same unit. Call Princeton, I'm sure they can get you a probe pre-made for the Europa and info on the EFIS interface. Attached is the Van's to BlueMountain Engineering note. Follow the attachment link back for the doc. I'm using the 912s, but the fuel return line goes right back to the tank on the reserve tank side. Not having separate tanks allows the fuel to simply be return to the common tank (on the reserve side). So return line switching is not required. I'm using the Andair FS20x2-F ACS P/N 05-29505 Chat Later, Steved ---------------- This Email contains Photos or Attachments located at the following link: http://www.europaowners.org/viewtopic.php?p=8550#8550 ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:14:48 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: woodcomp/kremen props [was: conventional gear] --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! ...and Bryan Allsop Regards Bob Harrison. G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rowland Carson Subject: Europa-List: woodcomp/kremen props [was: conventional gear] --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson At 2005-11-28 20:30 +0100 Jac van Heeswijk wrote: >Are you able (and willing) to mail me a survey of the Europa's that >are flying with a 912S Rotax engine and a Woodcomp (or Kremen) >propeller type SR 200 (3 blades) I have sent a fuller response direct to Jack. As far as I know, the only Europas that have flown with any type of Kremen/Woodcomp propellers are: F-PSLY 912 G-XSDJ 914 HB-YIE 912S OK-EUR 914 (I just remembered that Tim Houlihan's G-BZTH with a 912 is getting one fitted, but not sure if it has flown or been cleared for flight with it yet.) In addition to Jack, builders 402, 438, 486, 529, 556, A064, A061 all plan to fit Kremen/Woodcomp props of some type. If anyone knows of any other Europas fitted with Kremen/Woodcomp props, please let us know! regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson (retiring) Europa Club Membership Secretary - email for info! | Europa 435 G-ROWI (750 hours building) PFA #16532 | e-mail website ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:20:18 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Landing light ref and source wanted to fit into outrigger fairings --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Hi, I put some rectangular lights in my outrigger fairings and they were worst than uselss. All I wanted was something to taxi with and they wern't even any good for that. I know Cliff Shaw has some small round lights in his fairings, perhaps this might work better. Dave Anderson mounted his landing lights in the bottom of his cowlings and he tells me that they work pretty nicely. Paul ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:32:19 PM PST US From: Jim Brown Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: Jim Brown Fred There were (TWO) tri- gears that day. One mono wheel, one mono wheel with the glider wings. All I was saying was all four a/c were in same airspace at same time, same speed. When tanks were topped off each tri- gear took approx. 2 gal more that the mono wheel. We were using a 172 as the camera ship. We were all flying about 120 mph. Jim Brown Fred Fillinger wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Jim Brown > > > ... > > We were in the air over two hours with all four planes and > the camera ship. > > > > After landing all four planes were refueled. The two > tri-gear's took > > over two gallons each, more fuel than my mono wheel. > > > The tri-geared just simply burned more fuel. > > I believe all we demonstrated here was a drag penalty for > that particular tri-gear. If such speed penalty is say 7%, > then that will take about 20% more fuel to keep up with the > faster aircraft. IOW, a mono at 75% power flying abreast a > trigear at 95% power. There may have also been aerodynamic > build variations between the two planes having nothing to do > with the gear legs, one of which is further fighting the > prop. > > Reg, > Fred F. > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:45 PM PST US From: Jim Brown Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: Jim Brown I do not understand your first paragraph. The total fuel that went into each plane was around 10 gallons. Each tri-gear had burned 2 gal more than the mono wheel. As far as the speed kit. I installed one on my mono wheel and I picked up 2 kts. I know of a couple more mono wheels with speed kits installed, and they have told me 1 to 2 kts increase. What about it ??? All you mono wheel, and tri-gear drivers out there who have installed the speed kits, what increased speed did you get ? Jim Brown BEBERRY@aol.com wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com > > > In 2001, or 2002, Europa had the Glider wings at Sun and Fun and had > installed > them on the Mono wheel. This was the first public showing of the glider wings > installed on the mono wheel. Keith wanted to get pictures of the Tri-gears > and > a mono wheel in formation. So a photo shoot was put together. > > Jim Thursby flew a customers tri-gear, Clive flew the company tri-gear > demonstrator, I flew our mono wheel, and Andy flew the company mono wheel > with > the long wings attached. All four planes were topped off with > fuel................... > > .............................. > > Jim, > > An interesting comparison. I think your general assumptions are probably > correct but the actual fuel usage for a Tri Gear of just over 1 gall i.e. > (assuming U.S. gallons) of some 4 litres per hour is a bit enviable! > > Were any of the Tri Gears fitted with speed kits and do you or anyone else > have figures which prove - or otherwise- the claim that a speed kit will give > 10 knots more, or looked at another way, use less fuel?. Does the speed kit > go anyway towards getting the Tri Gear fuel usage anywhere down towards the > Mono? > > Patrick > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:13:13 PM PST US From: "Garry" Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: "Garry" Jim, Ok, I give up. You have objective data to support your position. Here's my story............I took my first demo ride at Sun N'Fun, I think in 1998. I went up in a mono (only thing available) with Europa's English test pilot. I can't remember his name but he was later killed in a plane crash. During taxi, takeoff and landing he was fighting the plane mightily, and I was scared out of my wits. Once in the air, we were fine and he put me through his aerobatic routine that he flew during the air show portion of Sun N'Fun. Jump ahead a year or so. I met with Bob Berube at Lakeland and asked about demo rides. By now he had both a mono and a trigear on site. Bob WOULDN'T fly the mono, but we went up in the trigear. I love every aspect of it and bought the kit on the spot. Jump ahead another year or so. A local guy finished his mono and was looking for a test pilot to do the first flight. The most famous, experienced and respected test pilot in west central Florida was contacted and he agreed to do the flight. Upon landing he lost control, ran off the side of the runway and put it into the weeds. Fortunately, no significant damage. This is a guy who's flown hundreds of different aircraft, flown for the military, has 20,000 hours plus, and is a certified test pilot. He cursed the Europa as the worst ground handling airplane he'd ever flown, and swore to never get near another one as long as he lived. Shortly thereafter, the Europa accidents began to become frequent, and Europa was dropped from every insurance carrier's list of insurable planes. I had a devil of a time convincing them that MY Europa wasn't like all those that were having accidents. Over the last 7 years or so we've all read on the forum about the number of people who have converted from mono to trigear, after having their wits scared out of them. Many others describe their harrowing tales of accidents or near accidents with the mono. For what? a few gallons of gas savings? I'm sure the savings in fuel bills is more than offset in higher insurance premiums. I've flown a number of times in monos with Bill Stewart and others. Even after 100 or more hours in the mono, Bill's face would break out with perspiration on final, and I'd nearly soil my skivies. I've NEVER felt comfortable in a mono. Can it be flown safely? Of course it can. You and many others are proof of that. I guess it's like owning a pit bull dog. Many owners have great pit bulls as pets, but always lurking around the corner is the possibility of the dog biting you. Same with the Europa mono. Given a choice, I chose a Laborador Retriever and a trigear. I hope you take no personal offense to my postings. I respect and admire you too much to want that to happen. In the end, it's all a matter of personal preference. Best regards and holiday wishes, Garry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Brown" Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] > --> Europa-List message posted by: Jim Brown > > Garry; > > You are painting a picture with a very large brush. > > One example; > > In 2001, or 2002, Europa had the Glider wings at Sun and Fun and had > installed > them on the Mono wheel. This was the first public showing of the glider > wings > installed on the mono wheel. Keith wanted to get pictures of the Tri-gears > and > a mono wheel in formation. So a photo shoot was put together. > > Jim Thursby flew a customers tri-gear, Clive flew the company tri-gear > demonstrator, I flew our mono wheel, and Andy flew the company mono wheel > with > the long wings attached. All four planes were topped off with fuel. > > We were in the air over two hours with all four planes and the camera > ship. > > After landing all four planes were refueled. The two tri-gear's took over > two > gallons each, more fuel than my mono wheel. I had used over a gallon more > than > the glider winged mono wheel. > > We were all at about the same airspeed, in the same area for the flight, > so the conditions were the same on each aircraft. > > The tri-geared just simply burned more fuel. > > Jim Brown > N398JB > > Garry wrote: > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Garry" >> >> I remain completely baffled as to why so many Europa pilots have chosen >> the >> mono over the trigear when given a choice. There is absolutely zero >> performance advantage to the mono, in rate of climb, in cruise speed, in >> fuel burn, or whatever. The difference is that the mono is inheritantly >> unstable in landing (and takeoff) configuration. Everyone (almost) else >> in >> the aircraft business, both large and small, has abandon the taildragger >> design, and no one else is building mono wheel planes. For the life of >> me I >> cannot understand why Ivan thought he could be successful when the rest >> of >> the world says it's an unstable design. The proof is in the results. >> Europa mono's are ground looping, wheelbarrowing, bending props, running >> off >> the tarmac, and generally destroying themselves with regularity. Perhaps >> that is a smart marketing strategy........to design a product that >> requires >> regular parts replacement and rebuilding, but as a pilot I'm not >> impressed. >> I do acknowledge that there are a few among our ranks who get a certain >> thrill out of placing themselves in danger on every flight, and love the >> challenge of taming a wild and unpredictable beast. It makes for good >> chest >> thumping and bragging rights at the local pub, but might I suggest that >> you >> take up the (American) sport of bull riding. It's probably safer and >> more >> satisfying than trying to land a mono. I'm not trying to stir up the >> ranks, >> but simply trying to understand the motivation of choosing an unstable >> design over a proper one. Both Europas are fabulous planes in the air, >> but >> one operates on the ground in a proper fashion while the other acts like >> a >> drunk and wounded gooney bird. Let's hear some logical and unemotional >> arguments in favor of the mono. >> >> Trigear pilot >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jim Thursby" >> To: >> Subject: RE: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] >> >> > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Thursby" >> > >> > >> > Hi Chris, >> > If you are that gung ho, by all means try it yourself but don't say you >> > weren't warned. I thought I was smarter than Ivan Shaw once too. >> > Against >> > his wishes (and unknown to) I spent the better part of two hours >> > trying >> > to >> > wheel land one of the company planes. I've been told it was some of >> > the >> > most entertaining stuff the controllers at Lakeland had ever seen. It >> > will >> > squeak the main on ever so gently with just a touch of power, then the >> > tail >> > slams to the runway and you are rewarded for your carelessness with >> > another >> > chance or two at landing it properly. If you recover from the >> > resulting >> > three to ten foot bounce and haven't clipped your propeller, and if you >> > haven't ground looped it, and if you haven't stalled and dropped it in, >> > you >> > can attempt another landing. I tried many times and NEVER got it to >> > stay >> > on >> > the ground. If you must attempt wheel landings in a tail dragger >> > aircraft >> > please buy or build an RV and save the Europa community from losing >> > another >> > aircraft from the ranks. And the prop is VERY close when on the main >> > wheel >> > with the plane in a slight nose down attitude. >> > >> > Jim T. >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com >> > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Beck >> > To: europa-list@matronics.com >> > Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa >> > XS?] >> > >> > --> Europa-List message posted by: Chris Beck >> > >> > Jim Brown wrote: >> > >> >>--> Europa-List message posted by: Jim Brown >> >> >> >>I would also suggest, to those of you who want to "TRY" to wheel land a >> >>mono wheel, you need to do one thing first. With the engine off, have a >> >>friend or helper raise the tail to normal flight attitude, then take a >> >>look at how close the prop is to the ground or pavement. One bounce on >> >>landing, and you may be buying new prop blades. >> >> >> >>The center of gravity is behind the mono wheel, which will make the >> >>tail drop down, as soon as the wheel touches the runway, if you counter >> >>with some forward stick, re-read the above paragraph. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Jim, what sort of clearance are we talking about?? 2"? 6"? I've got >> > a >> > mile on the 140. I'd have to be looking straight at the dirt to get >> > the >> > prop grounded. >> > >> > Regarding the C of G, it's the same issue on any taildragger. It's >> > behind >> > the mains, which causes the tail to drop when landing due to the >> > inertia. >> > Trick is to zero out the rate of descent just as the mains touch, then >> > nail >> > it with that bit of forward stick (as I'm sure you know very well from >> > the >> > Pitts). Again, is it strictly a prop clearance issue that prevents >> > wheelies >> > in the monowheel? Has this been beaten to death in the past where I >> > can >> > look it up in the archives? >> > >> > I'm just very curious about the mechanics of landing a monowheel. I've >> > flown in a few different ones (a Classic and an XS). Now that I'm >> > flying >> > a >> > tailwheel plan, I understand a lot more of what's going on. >> > >> > Chris >> > >> > >> > >> > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:17:36 PM PST US From: "Fred Fillinger" Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" ----- Original Message ----- > A drag penalty for both particular tri-gears !! and the ones previously > mentioned. > > chus. > > MP So get rid of much of that drag; it need be only relative to a big, even faired bump on the fuselage bottom, and stowed outriggers but in a place where some wing lift suffers. Like laminar flow wheel pants, if one has a way to trust the fairing mfr's sales literature. With laminer flow, fairing drag goes down something like 60%. Fred F. ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:29 PM PST US From: "GLENN CROWDER" Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: "GLENN CROWDER" I haven't noticed any speed increase with the speed kit fairings installed on the monowheel. I still have to install the tail wheel fairing tho. Glenn >From: Jim Brown >Reply-To: europa-list@matronics.com >To: europa-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] >Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:58:12 -0500 > >--> Europa-List message posted by: Jim Brown > >I do not understand your first paragraph. The total fuel that went into >each >plane was around 10 gallons. Each tri-gear had burned 2 gal more than the >mono >wheel. > >As far as the speed kit. I installed one on my mono wheel and I picked up 2 >kts. >I know of a couple more mono wheels with speed kits installed, and they >have told >me 1 to 2 kts increase. > >What about it ??? All you mono wheel, and tri-gear drivers out there who >have >installed the speed kits, what increased speed did you get ? > >Jim Brown > >BEBERRY@aol.com wrote: > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com > > > > > > In 2001, or 2002, Europa had the Glider wings at Sun and Fun and had > > installed > > them on the Mono wheel. This was the first public showing of the glider >wings > > installed on the mono wheel. Keith wanted to get pictures of the >Tri-gears > > and > > a mono wheel in formation. So a photo shoot was put together. > > > > Jim Thursby flew a customers tri-gear, Clive flew the company tri-gear > > demonstrator, I flew our mono wheel, and Andy flew the company mono >wheel > > with > > the long wings attached. All four planes were topped off with > > fuel................... > > > > .............................. > > > > Jim, > > > > An interesting comparison. I think your general assumptions are >probably > > correct but the actual fuel usage for a Tri Gear of just over 1 gall >i.e. > > (assuming U.S. gallons) of some 4 litres per hour is a bit enviable! > > > > Were any of the Tri Gears fitted with speed kits and do you or anyone >else > > have figures which prove - or otherwise- the claim that a speed kit >will give > > 10 knots more, or looked at another way, use less fuel?. Does the >speed kit > > go anyway towards getting the Tri Gear fuel usage anywhere down towards >the > > Mono? > > > > Patrick > > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:31:01 PM PST US From: "Fred Fillinger" Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" > Fred > > There were (TWO) tri-gears that day. One mono wheel, one > mono wheel with the glider wings. All I was saying was all four > a/c were in same airspace at same time, same speed. When tanks > were topped off each tri- gear took approx. 2 gal more that the > mono wheel. > > Jim Brown > I got that part, but I was just trying to restate "trigear burns more gas" to simple math. Assuming all were same engine/prop combination, at 75%, all will burn same gas. Well, ignoring that a heavier aircraft will burn more in climb. Fuel burn is proportional to power (though not always linearly), and power required, in formation flight, to overcome add'l relative drag has a "cube" in Dr. Hoerner's handy little formula. Reg, Fred F. ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 05:39:23 PM PST US From: kbcarpenter@comcast.net Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: kbcarpenter@comcast.net I would say 2 knots for mine. Ken Carpenter N9XS 914 Mono -------------- Original message -------------- > --> Europa-List message posted by: Jim Brown > > I do not understand your first paragraph. The total fuel that went into each > plane was around 10 gallons. Each tri-gear had burned 2 gal more than the mono > wheel. > > As far as the speed kit. I installed one on my mono wheel and I picked up 2 kts. > I know of a couple more mono wheels with speed kits installed, and they have > told > me 1 to 2 kts increase. > > What about it ??? All you mono wheel, and tri-gear drivers out there who have > installed the speed kits, what increased speed did you get ? > > Jim Brown > > BEBERRY@aol.com wrote: > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com > > > > > > In 2001, or 2002, Europa had the Glider wings at Sun and Fun and had > > installed > > them on the Mono wheel. This was the first public showing of the glider wings > > installed on the mono wheel. Keith wanted to get pictures of the Tri-gears > > and > > a mono wheel in formation. So a photo shoot was put together. > > > > Jim Thursby flew a customers tri-gear, Clive flew the company tri-gear > > demonstrator, I flew our mono wheel, and Andy flew the company mono wheel > > with > > the long wings attached. All four planes were topped off with > > fuel................... > > > > .............................. > > > > Jim, > > > > An interesting comparison. I think your general assumptions are probably > > correct but the actual fuel usage for a Tri Gear of just over 1 gall i.e. > > (assuming U.S. gallons) of some 4 litres per hour is a bit enviable! > > > > Were any of the Tri Gears fitted with speed kits and do you or anyone else > > have figures which prove - or otherwise- the claim that a speed kit will give > > 10 knots more, or looked at another way, use less fuel?. Does the speed kit > > go anyway towards getting the Tri Gear fuel usage anywhere down towards the > > Mono? > > > > Patrick > > > > > > > > I would say 2 knots for mine. Ken Carpenter N9XS 914 Mono -------------- Original message -------------- -- Europa-List message posted by: Jim Brown I do not understand your first paragraph. The total fuel that went into each plane was around 10 gallons. Each tri-gear had burned 2 gal more than the mono wheel. As far as the speed kit. I installed one on my mono wheel and I picked up 2 kts. I know of a couple more mono wheels with speed kits installed, and they have told me 1 to 2 kts increase. What about it ??? All you mono wheel, and tri-gear drivers out there who have installed the speed kits, what increased speed did you get ? Jim Brown BEBERRY@aol.com wrote: -- Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com
In 2001, or 2002, Europa had the Glider wings at Sun and Fun and had installed them on the Mono wheel. This was the first public showing of the glider wings installed on the mono wheel. Keith wanted to get pictures of the Tri-gears and a mono wheel in formation. So a photo shoot was put together. Jim Thursby flew a customers tri-gear, Clive flew the company tri-gear demonstrator, I flew our mono wheel, and Andy flew the company mono wheel with the long wings attached. All four planes were topped off with fuel................... .............................. Jim, An interesting comparison. I think your general assumptions are probably correct but the actual fuel usage for a Tri Gear of just over 1 gall i.e. (assuming U.S. gallons) of some 4 litres per hour is a bit enviable! Were any of the Tri Gears fitted with speed kits and do you or anyone else have figures which prove - or otherwise- the claim that a speed kit will give 10 knots more, or looked at another way, use less fuel?. Does the speed kit go anyway towards getting the Tri Gear fuel usage anywhere down towards the Mono? Patrick .buildersbooks.com, ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 05:59:05 PM PST US From: Jeff B Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: Jeff B Near as I can tell, about 6 kts in my trike, which burns between 4.3 and 4.5 GPH at 75%. With the Airmaster CS and a 912S she's making 130 kias at 2000 ft... I am very happy with the performance... Jeff - N55XS 110 hrs Jim Brown wrote: > What about it ??? All you mono wheel, and tri-gear drivers out there who have > installed the speed kits, what increased speed did you get ? ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 07:09:38 PM PST US From: JTHURSBY@tampabay.rr.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Flying a heavy Europa XS? --> Europa-List message posted by: JTHURSBY@tampabay.rr.com Jim, I might add that was Marvin Alvarez's trike and was 914 powered like yours and the glider/mono. The other trike was a 912S and always burned more than the 914 powered birds. I used to fly to Griffin GA with all the planes and I could make it nonstop with a mono wheel. I tried it with Marv's trike once and had to hit reserve 30 miles out and stopped for fuel. (once is enough of THAT nonsense!) Never used a lone ranger tank in either bird. As you remember from our great trip out to Arlington, when flown hard, a Europa is pretty short legged. Jim T. ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 07:24:02 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Well, since we are all sharing tail dragger stories, here is mine. When I ordered my kit in 1997 it was the only choice. At the time I had only ever flown sailplanes and I thought it would not be much different to what I already knew... well I was wrong. In the time I was building the Europa I got my private pilots rating, then my instrument rating and logged about 600 hours, all on tri gear aircraft. I reckon if I hadn't been doing all that flying then I would have finished the Europa in 3 years instead of 5 but that's another story. So... then it comes time for me to get ready to fly mine. I went and did a bunch of training in a Citabira. I have to say that after about 6 hours I was still wondering if I was ever going to get the hang of this tail wheel stuff. I mean I was really getting worried that I had made a big mistake and I was never going to figure it out. After about 10 hours I got the hang of it, and then I managed to get 15 take off's with Andy Draper in the factory mono which was very helpful. I really did "sneak up" on flying my mono wheel and I freely admit that I was about 100 hours into it before I got comfortable with it, but now I don't really think about it too much. As an interesting aside, I now land my Comanche better than I ever did, so I think its true that stick and rudder with tail wheel experience improves piloting skills. Would I change now, I doubt it, it kinds fits like an old glove these days. That's my 2 cents worth. Paul - N378PJ ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:41 PM PST US From: JTHURSBY@tampabay.rr.com Subject: Europa-List: mono/trike --> Europa-List message posted by: JTHURSBY@tampabay.rr.com Garry, I read your other message earlier and all I can say is BS. Jaybo ground looped the plane because he got full throttle long after he expected it. He was attempting a go around and the throttle cables kinked in the box. Then it went wide open when he did not expect it. Blame the wound wire throttle cables that should be solid wire. That and the fact that he refused to accept that it was any different than any other taildragger, and it is. A lot of pilots let the thing get farther away than they should counting on differential braking to bail them out. You have none in a mono. I once sweated landings in the mono, then I threw Lee out of the right seat, slowed the airplane down like it should and all was fine. Float will keep the pucker factor high and the mono suffers from it. The trike on the other hand has almost no float if your approach speed is on. Plus you can dump the flaps in the flare and plant it solidily. Not a wise idea in a mono. I've always said you can land a trike shorter more consistently, but a mono wins the takeoff game hands down. I flew into Bob Knapps 700 foot grass strip in N914EA and while the landing got my attention the takeoff was a breeze. Used half of it. I also used over 2,500 feet at Manatee airport's grass strip in the trike two up and thought I might have to leave Mike Gallar there! Have I got a prop in a Europa? Yes. I tried to expedite at Vandenburg for a Lear behind me and stood it on the nose. I learned that if I'm on the runway I'M the most important guy at the moment. But I have never, ever gone around in over 500 landings from zero to gusting to 45 knots winds. Am I master of the taildragger? Hardly. I had less than 5 hours tailwheel time when Lee checked me out in the Europa. Maybe my inexperience is what worked for me. I didn't try to fly it like a P51. I didn't know any better. Jaybo and I talked about that incedent quite a bit before his death and he admitted to prior prejudice before even flying the plane. Either way they both work and we can all use what we like without bashing others. BTW what are you cruising at? I have Claude's up to 138MPH without fairings. Race soon? where are you hangered now? Jim T. ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:34 PM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Parkin" "This is a guy who's flown hundreds of different aircraft, flown for the military, has 20,000 hours plus, and is a certified test pilot." An instructor of mine once told me that to get a true feeling for the experience of a pilot, divide his total flying hours by the number of pilot seats multiplied by the number of engines the aircraft has. For example, an airline pilot who has flown 20,000 hours in a big 4 jet would be 20000/(2*4) equals 2500. The rationale behind this is that if you fly long haul, in 2 by 13 hour sectors you might get one landing and one take-off. How many take-off and landings would you get in your Europa in 26 hours of flying. I am afraid that spending 10,000 hours monitoring an FMS does not a good stick and throttle man make!! regards, Mike. PS. If you have 20,000 hours then you are probably quite old and therefore not as quick as you were in your prime.