---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 11/29/05: 38 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:14 AM - Hey Guys... (Matt Dralle) 2. 01:13 AM - Re: Hey Guys... (BEBERRY@AOL.COM) 3. 01:50 AM - Lies, Damned Lies .... and Statistics (Nigel Graham) 4. 05:33 AM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Jim Brown) 5. 06:01 AM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com) 6. 06:40 AM - Drag Reduction (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com) 7. 07:21 AM - Re: Lies, Damned Lies...Statistics (Fred Klein) 8. 07:25 AM - Re: propellers (Fred Klein) 9. 07:29 AM - Re: Drag Reduction (GLENN CROWDER) 10. 07:53 AM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Paul McAllister) 11. 08:22 AM - MG Core Closeouts (Jim Butcher) 12. 08:49 AM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com) 13. 09:00 AM - Re: Drag Reduction (Michel Auvray) 14. 09:06 AM - Re: propellers (gdhetrick) 15. 10:38 AM - Re: Drag Reduction (Fred Klein) 16. 11:05 AM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Paul McAllister) 17. 12:19 PM - Re: Sensenich Carbon propellers (Andy Silvester) 18. 12:40 PM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Duncan McFadyean) 19. 12:42 PM - Re: Lies, Damned Lies .... and Statistics (Raimo Toivio) 20. 12:54 PM - Re: Drag Reduction (NEEL Jean Philippe) 21. 12:54 PM - Re: Lies, Damned Lies .... and Statistics (DuaneFamly@aol.com) 22. 12:54 PM - Re: Hey Guys... (Duncan McFadyean) 23. 01:00 PM - Re: Lies, Damned Lies .... and Statistics (Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com) 24. 01:12 PM - Re: Drag Reduction (Duncan McFadyean) 25. 02:04 PM - Re: Drag Reduction (KARL HEINDL) 26. 02:20 PM - Re: woodcomp/kremen props [was: conventional gear] (Rowland Carson) 27. 02:21 PM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Cliff Shaw) 28. 03:20 PM - Re: Hey Guys...Speaking of drag... (Terry Seaver (terrys)) 29. 03:23 PM - Battery location (Alexander Kaarsberg) 30. 03:36 PM - Re: Hey Guys... (Jeff B) 31. 03:52 PM - Re: Drag Reduction (Cliff Shaw) 32. 03:54 PM - Re: Hey Guys...Speaking of drag... (Duncan McFadyean) 33. 03:57 PM - Re: Hey Guys...Speaking of drag... (Cliff Shaw) 34. 04:16 PM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] () 35. 05:05 PM - Re: Hey Guys... (JEFF ROBERTS) 36. 08:15 PM - Re: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] (Steve Hagar) 37. 08:15 PM - Re: Hey Guys...Speaking of drag... (Fred Klein) 38. 10:16 PM - Re: Hey Guys...Speaking of drag... (Fred Klein) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:14:35 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Europa-List: Hey Guys... --> Europa-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Hey guys, wow, I can't believe all the really nice comments I've been getting about how much you appreciate and enjoy the Lists. I really appreciate your positive feedback and support. I've included below a bunch more of the awesome feedback I've received in the last week or so. Please read over some of these great comments. It is really quite amazing... There are just a couple more days left during this year's Fund Raiser and your chance to get one of the really great gifts. If you been putting off making a Contribution, now's your chance to support these Lists *and* pinch an awesome free gift too! Thank you to everyone that has made a Contribution already. It is much appreciated! http://www.matronics.com/contribution Best regards, Matt Dralle List Admininstrator ----------------------- Lister Comments ----------------------- The Archives Search Engine is usually the first place I turn to when I run into a building question or problem I need to resolve. Christopher H. I look forward so much to reading the list digest every night that my wife thinks I'm getting obsessed. Thomas S. It's also the way I start my day. A cup of coffee and I'm at my computer to read the Lists. I look forward to it. I've learned so much. James B. It is the best way to stay in contact with other builders and flyers. Charles G. Very good info and very interesting people. Rodney B. The List is a great resource for me while building. Brice B. Great stuff - keep it going. Mark H. This list is just amazing! Reginald D. Very grateful for he RV List. John S. I would have NEVER attempted to build a Piet if I had not found this List. Rob B. It is helpful as well as entertaining. David P. ...invaluable to me in my decision to purchase a CJ-6. Valerie W. A great tool and service to the Aviation Community. William C. While I haven't learned enough to contribute to other very often, I have learned enough to avoid some mistakes in building my kit. Cl M. Enjoy this Zenith List. First thing upon waking. Bob W. These forums for builders/owners to exchange ideas and experiences is one of the main bonds that keep this hobby intact. Bob R. The Matronics list are very helpful and dependable. John R. Best of all, NO SPAM. Lothar K. Thanks for the GREAT things you do for RVs! Reed U. Your site's invaluable and very much appreciated. Larry M. Not building yet but when I do I want this site to still be here. Mike T. Truly made me a better pilot and owner. Paul P. The list is an essential part of our lives. Don P. The service you provide is invaluable to me and all of the many list members. Brian A. Matronics lists are the best on the Internet. Bar none! George A. Thanks for the work you do keeping this list clean and productive. Dee Y. A great service. Jim C. Being close to completion of my 6A, I can credit the List for helping me all along the way. Jeff O. Couldn't have done it without the LIST! Thomas E. Your list has been very helpful and informative during [the building] process. Gary S. Keeps us informed and safer. Cedric S. Another outstanding year of service. Terry W. The List is great! Brett H. Great home building resources. Charles K. I am glad you are there. Michael L. The List has been an invaluable assist in the building process. I can't imagine not having it. Arthur L. Invaluable service! Ford F. I have enjoyed the many views and ideas (and wit) of the contributions over the years... Noel G. I have found the list to contain many informative items from real life experience. Walt M. A great service and resource for the experimental aircraft community. Christopher H. A great list for a great little airplane! Graham H. I have learned a lot just by reading other's posts. Thomas B. Very helpful! Ken L. The list is great! Kevin B. I have learned a great deal from the postings to your Lists. Bob S. Good info and good people!!! Jerry B. A great resource. Sal C. I've "met" some great people here and have been helped a lot. Tommy W. These Lists are my main resource and means of communicating with other builders. Brian A. I use the List everyday! I'd feel guilty all year if I didn't contribute. Brian U. It has helped me be a better builder and put me in touch with some real fine people. Bruce B. A great list!!! Rupert T. ...invaluable help to many builders. Jonathan R. Great list, I'm still trying to decide, and the List provides great information. Maarten V. Your web sites provide me with an important connection to invaluable technical resources plus feedback and motivation to continue the build process. Douglas D. A great resource and contribution to safety. Donald K. A great service. Richard R. It has been a source for a lot of useful information over the many years I have been on the list. Jerry S. I really enjoy the positive spirit and exchange via your List. Richard R. The List has been a great help on several occasions... Harry C. Great List! Reginald D. The knowledge and support that I have received from your members was worth more that my contribution. Valerie W. It has also been a source of great entertainment at times. Jerry S. ...always a source of amusement. Harry C. I'm still under construction and the list has helped me avoid many problems. Rupert T. ----------------------- Lister Comments ----------------------- Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:13:20 AM PST US From: BEBERRY@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Hey Guys... --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com Speed Kit, Still no answers! I am fitting my speed kit to my Tri Gear and still hoped that someone would tell me if I am doing this to gain extra performance/better fuel figures , or am I just doing a cosmetic job? Any more comments?. The correspondence has been interesting and I suppose that we shall only get subjective points of view on many aspects of the aeroplane but the question of whether a speed kit is effective, performance wise, should be relatively easy to answer - or do I have to wait until I can get airborne again.? Please !!! Patrick ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:50:50 AM PST US From: "Nigel Graham" Subject: Europa-List: Lies, Damned Lies .... and Statistics --> Europa-List message posted by: "Nigel Graham" I read Mike's posting with interest as his observations match the statistical evidence. As the first Europe's took to the air in the UK in the mid '90s, reports of "incidents" started to filter through the "grape vine". I started monitoring and downloading every UK CAA Air Accident Investigation Bulletins relating to the Europa. After about six years I had a health stack and being devious by nature, decided to compile some statistics - which among other things illustrated to my great surprise, that the type of pilot most likely to "loose it" (usually on landing) was the high time airline professional. For your interest - here are those statistics: Pilot Average Age: 55 yrs Average Flying Time: 2687 Hrs Variant Monowheel: 94% Tri-Gear: 6% Flight Phase Take Off: 25% Flying: 6% Landing: 69% Of these, 38% involved un-commanded gear retraction or (in the case of more than one high time professional) forgetting about the gear altogether! By far and away, the greatest problem is "Loss of Control" at take-off and landing. Once the Europa is in the air, it is a remarkably safe aircraft. The only problems are running out of fuel (not really the planes fault) and cockpit doors departing if the PFI has not been carried out to ensure that the shoot bolts are home. There was a spate of in-flight engine stoppages with the NSI (Subaru) engine, but these never seemed to get reported - so are not reflected in these numbers. Nigel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] ................An instructor of mine once told me that to get a true feeling for the experience of a pilot, divide his total flying hours by the number of pilot seats multiplied by the number of engines the aircraft has........................... Mike. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:28 AM PST US From: Jim Brown Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: Jim Brown Fred Your point is well taken.. Jim Fred Fillinger wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" > > > Fred > > > > There were (TWO) tri-gears that day. One mono wheel, one > > mono wheel with the glider wings. All I was saying was all > four > > a/c were in same airspace at same time, same speed. When > tanks > > were topped off each tri- gear took approx. 2 gal more > that the > > mono wheel. > > > > Jim Brown > > > > I got that part, but I was just trying to restate "trigear > burns more gas" to simple math. Assuming all were same > engine/prop combination, at 75%, all will burn same gas. > Well, ignoring that a heavier aircraft will burn more in > climb. Fuel burn is proportional to power (though not > always linearly), and power required, in formation flight, > to overcome add'l relative drag has a "cube" in Dr. > Hoerner's handy little formula. > > Reg, > Fred F. > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:01:05 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] From: Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com 29/11/2005 08:59:56 AM, Serialize complete at 29/11/2005 08:59:56 AM --> Europa-List message posted by: Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com Is any data available regarding the effect of the C of G on efficiency? The C of G on my tri-gear is towards the front of the envelope, I would expect that this is true of tri-gears in general. Any measurable advantage to be gained by adding weight in the tail ? Dave A061 do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:06 AM PST US From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com Subject: Europa-List: Drag Reduction --> Europa-List message posted by: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com In a message dated 11/29/2005 2:58:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, europa-list-digest@matronics.com writes: > So get rid of much of that drag; it need be only relative to > a big, even faired bump on the fuselage bottom, and stowed > outriggers but in a place where some wing lift suffers. > Like laminar flow wheel pants, if one has a way to trust the > fairing mfr's sales literature. With laminer flow, fairing > drag goes down something like 60%. > > I've seen a dozen or so flying Europas now and I've been very surprised that > no one I've seen is installing flap gap seals and positive seals on the > ailerons, rudder and trim tabs. Stopping the pressure equalization between the > upper and lower surfaces of the wings and stab, plus the left and right side of > the rudder has been shown to significantly improve sailplane performance. > It's puzzling to me that more Europaphiles aren't using these techniques. > > On another note, my Sensenich hollow carbon prop arrived yesterday. All I > can say is "WOW". The quality is excellent! I'll let everybody know what it > weighs shortly. > > Regards, > > John Lawton > Dunlap, TN > A-245 (Installing the prop today....) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:03 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Lies, Damned Lies...Statistics --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein Nigel, Thanks much for persuasive analysis of this pesky issue. Fred A194 do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:25:10 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: propellers From: Fred Klein --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein On Tuesday, November 29, 2005, at 06:38 AM, TELEDYNMCS@aol.com wrote: >> On another note, my Sensenich hollow carbon prop arrived yesterday. >> All I >> can say is "WOW". The quality is excellent! I'll let everybody know >> what it >> weighs shortly. >> >> Regards, >> >> John Lawton >> Dunlap, TN >> A-245 (Installing the prop today....) John, The pixs of the blades are indeed awesome...do you have any specs on the twist of them or can you take some measurements before you mount them? Fred A194 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:29:01 AM PST US From: "GLENN CROWDER" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Drag Reduction --> Europa-List message posted by: "GLENN CROWDER" I am interested in trying some negative flap settings. This has the effect of removing wing area at cruise speeds. I've been back thru the archives and found a lot of opinions, but nobody seems to have actually done it. Might be tricky on the mono, but I'm initially thinking of a two position cam over type linkage on the flap rod that would shorten the flap rod in cruise. It really helps on my R/C sailplanes, raising the cruise speed noticeably. Also used on Lancairs and other hight speed a/c. Glenn >From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com >Reply-To: europa-list@matronics.com >To: europa-list@matronics.com >Subject: Europa-List: Drag Reduction >Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 09:38:52 EST > >--> Europa-List message posted by: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com > >In a message dated 11/29/2005 2:58:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, >europa-list-digest@matronics.com writes: > > > > So get rid of much of that drag; it need be only relative to > > a big, even faired bump on the fuselage bottom, and stowed > > outriggers but in a place where some wing lift suffers. > > Like laminar flow wheel pants, if one has a way to trust the > > fairing mfr's sales literature. With laminer flow, fairing > > drag goes down something like 60%. > > > > I've seen a dozen or so flying Europas now and I've been very surprised >that > > no one I've seen is installing flap gap seals and positive seals on the > > ailerons, rudder and trim tabs. Stopping the pressure equalization >between the > > upper and lower surfaces of the wings and stab, plus the left and right >side of > > the rudder has been shown to significantly improve sailplane >performance. > > It's puzzling to me that more Europaphiles aren't using these >techniques. > > > > On another note, my Sensenich hollow carbon prop arrived yesterday. All >I > > can say is "WOW". The quality is excellent! I'll let everybody know what >it > > weighs shortly. > > > > Regards, > > > > John Lawton > > Dunlap, TN > > A-245 (Installing the prop today....) > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:00 AM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Dave, My C o G is on the front of the envelope in my 914 mono. I do know that is goes noticeably faster when its loaded up with a lot of gear in the back. It is also significantly easier to land. I need 4 pounds in the tail to fix it, but after spending so much care in keeping the weigh off I just can't bring myself to add wieght. I might move the battery further aft one of these days. Cheers, Paul ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:42 AM PST US From: "Jim Butcher" Subject: Europa-List: MG Core Closeouts --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Butcher" Andy replied as follows: Dear Jim, We neglected to pre-cut the ends of your ailerons and airbrakes, sorry. You need to cut 1/2" from all the ends except the aileron root which should be cut at 1". This makes life easier for making the close-outs, but it would not be impossible to chevel out the foam after the cores had been laid up. What you want to end up with is a reasonably flat and smooth end on which to lay up the close-out. ( You'll know this from the other close-outs youll have done). Regards Andy Jim Butcher A185 N241BW short wings flying ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:16 AM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] From: Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com 29/11/2005 11:47:30 AM, Serialize complete at 29/11/2005 11:47:30 AM --> Europa-List message posted by: Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com Thanks Paul, I should do the arithmetic and see what it would take to optimise the C of G. If adding a few pounds would add a knot or two, then it would be worthwhile. My battery is on the firewall and I can't see moving it. The next question would be, has anyone come up with a safe, secure and simple method of adding weight in the tail. Dave A061 "Paul McAllister" Sent by: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com 11/29/2005 10:52 AM Please respond to europa-list To: cc: Subject: RE: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Dave, My C o G is on the front of the envelope in my 914 mono. I do know that is goes noticeably faster when its loaded up with a lot of gear in the back. It is also significantly easier to land. I need 4 pounds in the tail to fix it, but after spending so much care in keeping the weigh off I just can't bring myself to add wieght. I might move the battery further aft one of these days. Cheers, Paul ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:00:58 AM PST US From: "Michel Auvray" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Drag Reduction --> Europa-List message posted by: "Michel Auvray" Hello John; I am inerested by your information concerning laminar flow. What is your idea to reduce drag? bientt, Michel Auvray builder 145, 270 hours fly with my Europa (monowheel) ======= le 29/11/2005, 09:38:52 vous criviez: ======= >--> Europa-List message posted by: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com > >In a message dated 11/29/2005 2:58:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, >europa-list-digest@matronics.com writes: > > >> So get rid of much of that drag; it need be only relative to >> a big, even faired bump on the fuselage bottom, and stowed >> outriggers but in a place where some wing lift suffers. >> Like laminar flow wheel pants, if one has a way to trust the >> fairing mfr's sales literature. With laminer flow, fairing >> drag goes down something like 60%. >> >> I've seen a dozen or so flying Europas now and I've been very surprised that >> no one I've seen is installing flap gap seals and positive seals on the >> ailerons, rudder and trim tabs. Stopping the pressure equalization between the >> upper and lower surfaces of the wings and stab, plus the left and right side of >> the rudder has been shown to significantly improve sailplane performance. >> It's puzzling to me that more Europaphiles aren't using these techniques. >> >> On another note, my Sensenich hollow carbon prop arrived yesterday. All I >> can say is "WOW". The quality is excellent! I'll let everybody know what it >> weighs shortly. >> >> Regards, >> >> John Lawton >> Dunlap, TN >> A-245 (Installing the prop today....) > > = = = = = = = = = ========= = = = = = = = = = Michel Auvray mau11@free.fr 29/11/2005 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:39 AM PST US From: "gdhetrick" Subject: Re: Europa-List: propellers --> Europa-List message posted by: "gdhetrick" John, A couple of questions concerning your new prop. 1. What was the delivery time? 2. What is the weight? Looking forward to your in-flight tests as well as temp readings during taxi. Regards, Dale ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Klein" Subject: Re: Europa-List: propellers > --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein > > > On Tuesday, November 29, 2005, at 06:38 AM, TELEDYNMCS@aol.com wrote: > >>> On another note, my Sensenich hollow carbon prop arrived yesterday. >>> All I >>> can say is "WOW". The quality is excellent! I'll let everybody know >>> what it >>> weighs shortly. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> John Lawton >>> Dunlap, TN >>> A-245 (Installing the prop today....) > > John, > > The pixs of the blades are indeed awesome...do you have any specs on > the twist of them or can you take some measurements before you mount > them? > > Fred > A194 > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:05 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Drag Reduction From: Fred Klein --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein On Tuesday, November 29, 2005, at 06:38 AM, TELEDYNMCS@aol.com wrote: >> Stopping the pressure equalization between the >> upper and lower surfaces of the wings and stab, plus the left and >> right side of >> the rudder has been shown to significantly improve sailplane >> performance. >> It's puzzling to me that more Europaphiles aren't using these >> techniques. >> >> John Lawton John, Can you describe the nature of the gap seals you allude to? With regard to flap seals, would they be on the top, underside, or on both wing surfaces? If on the underside, are you suggesting a closure strip attached to the wing and tight to the underside of the flap which would flex and slide along the flap surface when the flaps are lowered? Would such a strip be taped to the wing, or glued, with the forward edge faired into the wing surface to mitigate any bump caused by the thickness off the gap seal strip? What material would you propose to use for such seals? Any thoughts on Glenn Crowder's inquiry regarding negative flap settings? Fred A194 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:01 AM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Dave The interesting thing about moving your battery is that it often ends up a wash from a weight perspective. The weight of the extra cable is often more than the amount of weight you have to put in the tail, so your better off just adding the lead in the back. Paul ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:19:18 PM PST US From: "Andy Silvester" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Sensenich Carbon propellers --> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester" As a dealer for Sensenich, we can offer better-than-retail pricing for these props. You also might like to know that Sensenich sell a spinner ($160) for the carbon ground - adjustable prop, in 9", 10" and (I think maybe) other sizes. The prop can't mount a spinner front bulkhead so the solution has to be one which has a stiff enough backplate to mount the spinner without other support. Where Customers opt for our Suncoast Europa cowling, we're now providing a different backplate for our matching spinner with this prop. Andy Silvester Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. www.suncoastjabiru.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gdhetrick Subject: Re: Europa-List: propellers --> Europa-List message posted by: "gdhetrick" John, A couple of questions concerning your new prop. 1. What was the delivery time? 2. What is the weight? Looking forward to your in-flight tests as well as temp readings during taxi. Regards, Dale ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Klein" Subject: Re: Europa-List: propellers > --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein > > > On Tuesday, November 29, 2005, at 06:38 AM, TELEDYNMCS@aol.com wrote: > >>> On another note, my Sensenich hollow carbon prop arrived yesterday. >>> All I >>> can say is "WOW". The quality is excellent! I'll let everybody know >>> what it >>> weighs shortly. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> John Lawton >>> Dunlap, TN >>> A-245 (Installing the prop today....) > > John, > > The pixs of the blades are indeed awesome...do you have any specs on > the twist of them or can you take some measurements before you mount > them? > > Fred > A194 > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:40:49 PM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" < simple method of adding weight in the tail.>> If you have the Classic and the vestiges of the old style tailwheel mount, then bolt some lead onto that mount using a 1" dia. "railway" bolt. PFA-approved! Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: RE: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] > --> Europa-List message posted by: Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com > > Thanks Paul, > > I should do the arithmetic and see what it would take to optimise the C of > G. If adding a few pounds would add a knot or two, then it would be > worthwhile. > My battery is on the firewall and I can't see moving it. > The next question would be, has anyone come up with a safe, secure and > simple method of adding weight in the tail. > > > Dave A061 > > > "Paul McAllister" > Sent by: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > 11/29/2005 10:52 AM > Please respond to europa-list > > > To: > cc: > Subject: RE: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a > heavy Europa XS?] > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" > > > Dave, > > My C o G is on the front of the envelope in my 914 mono. I do know that > is > goes noticeably faster when its loaded up with a lot of gear in the back. > It is also significantly easier to land. > > I need 4 pounds in the tail to fix it, but after spending so much care in > keeping the weigh off I just can't bring myself to add wieght. I might > move > the battery further aft one of these days. > > Cheers, Paul > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:42:29 PM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Lies, Damned Lies .... and Statistics --> Europa-List message posted by: "Raimo Toivio" cockpit > doors departing if the PFI has not been carried out to ensure that the shoot > bolts are home., > Nigel,> Nigel, whats PFI? I am going to install 2 microswitches per door to tell the shoot bolt position. Raimo ==== Raimo M W Toivio OH-XRT #417, 1233 hrs so far OH-CVK OH-BLL 37500 Lempaala Finland tel + 358 3 3753 777 fax + 358 3 3753 100 gsm + 358 40 590 1450 raimo.toivio@rwm.fi www.rwm.fi ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:54:22 PM PST US From: NEEL Jean Philippe Subject: Re: Europa-List: Drag Reduction --> Europa-List message posted by: NEEL Jean Philippe Salut Michel Il s'agit tout simplement d'appliquer des solutions tres connues dans le monde du vol voile. Tu peux voir ca sur les planeurs plastiques modernes. On pose un scotch cot charniere et un joint a levre de l'autre cot pour empecher une circulation parasite entre l'intrados en pression et l'extra dos en depression. Cette circulation est generatrice de traine.On peut appliquer ca au aileron au tab et la derive. Par contre le faire sur les volets me semble etre une mauvaise ide, car cela supprimerait l'effet de soufflage du a la fente des volets de l'europa . Ce soufflage ameliore beaucoup l'efficacit des volets. En ce qui me concerne je vole depuis le debut avec un scotch cot charniere. Ne me demande pas combien de Kt ca m'a rapport! Vole bien JP Michel Auvray a crit : --> Europa-List message posted by: "Michel Auvray" Hello John; I am inerested by your information concerning laminar flow. What is your idea to reduce drag? bientt, Michel Auvray builder 145, 270 hours fly with my Europa (monowheel) ======= le 29/11/2005, 09:38:52 vous criviez: ======= >--> Europa-List message posted by: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com > >In a message dated 11/29/2005 2:58:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, >europa-list-digest@matronics.com writes: > > >> So get rid of much of that drag; it need be only relative to >> a big, even faired bump on the fuselage bottom, and stowed >> outriggers but in a place where some wing lift suffers. >> Like laminar flow wheel pants, if one has a way to trust the >> fairing mfr's sales literature. With laminer flow, fairing >> drag goes down something like 60%. >> >> I've seen a dozen or so flying Europas now and I've been very surprised that >> no one I've seen is installing flap gap seals and positive seals on the >> ailerons, rudder and trim tabs. Stopping the pressure equalization between the >> upper and lower surfaces of the wings and stab, plus the left and right side of >> the rudder has been shown to significantly improve sailplane performance. >> It's puzzling to me that more Europaphiles aren't using these techniques. >> >> On another note, my Sensenich hollow carbon prop arrived yesterday. All I >> can say is "WOW". The quality is excellent! I'll let everybody know what it >> weighs shortly. >> >> Regards, >> >> John Lawton >> Dunlap, TN >> A-245 (Installing the prop today....) > > = = = = = = = = = ========= = = = = = = = = = Michel Auvray mau11@free.fr 29/11/2005 --------------------------------- Tlchargez le ici ! ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:54:23 PM PST US From: DuaneFamly@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Lies, Damned Lies .... and Statistics --> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com My guess would be "Pre Flight Inspection". Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:54:25 PM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Hey Guys... --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" I found a 9+ mph speed increase from fitting spats to 500x5 wheels on my TD. I got a further 10 mph from leg fairings, but in this instance you have to bear in mind that the rectangular section gearleg provides about 50 sq. ins of flat plate area; whereas the tri-gear legs present an elliptical section to the relative airflow. Further, the low point of application of undercarriage drag means that an equal and opposite moment has to be provided by the tailplane, creating more trim drag. So the effect of the fairings was a win-win benefit. Have not found anything like as much gain in any other single area of drag reduction. Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Europa-List: Hey Guys... > --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com > > > Speed Kit, > > > Still no answers! I am fitting my speed kit to my Tri Gear and still > hoped > that someone would tell me if I am doing this to gain extra > performance/better fuel figures , or am I just doing a cosmetic job? > > Any more comments?. The correspondence has been interesting and I > suppose > that we shall only get subjective points of view on many aspects of the > aeroplane but the question of whether a speed kit is effective, > performance wise, > should be relatively easy to answer - or do I have to wait until I can > get > airborne again.? > > Please !!! > > Patrick > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:00:59 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Lies, Damned Lies .... and Statistics From: Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com 29/11/2005 03:57:42 PM, Serialize complete at 29/11/2005 03:57:42 PM --> Europa-List message posted by: Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com Raimo, Pre flight inspection, pushing on the back section of the door once you are inside and ready to go seems to work, but there are probably better ways of checking Dave do not archive "Raimo Toivio" Sent by: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com 11/29/2005 03:40 PM Please respond to europa-list To: cc: Subject: Re: Europa-List: Lies, Damned Lies .... and Statistics --> Europa-List message posted by: "Raimo Toivio" cockpit > doors departing if the PFI has not been carried out to ensure that the shoot > bolts are home., > Nigel,> Nigel, whats PFI? I am going to install 2 microswitches per door to tell the shoot bolt position. Raimo ==== Raimo M W Toivio OH-XRT #417, 1233 hrs so far OH-CVK OH-BLL 37500 Lempaala Finland tel + 358 3 3753 777 fax + 358 3 3753 100 gsm + 358 40 590 1450 raimo.toivio@rwm.fi www.rwm.fi ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:12:49 PM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Drag Reduction --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" Interestingly, the owner of G-KIMM oiled his TP bearings. The excess oil formed a nice dribble down the outside of the fuselage. After a flight there were numerous streaks formed aftwards from the dribble. These streaks showed disturbed flow close to the underside of the fus./TP junction, indicative of the leakage and disruption that occurs through this gap, as one would expect. I haven't heard that anyone came up with an effective way of sealing this, and wouldn't expect to see it approved in the UK. Although merely infilling the internal rebate on the root of the TP may discourage flow of air through this gap; perhaps someone in the US could find out! Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Europa-List: Drag Reduction > --> Europa-List message posted by: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com > > In a message dated 11/29/2005 2:58:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, > europa-list-digest@matronics.com writes: > > >> So get rid of much of that drag; it need be only relative to >> a big, even faired bump on the fuselage bottom, and stowed >> outriggers but in a place where some wing lift suffers. >> Like laminar flow wheel pants, if one has a way to trust the >> fairing mfr's sales literature. With laminer flow, fairing >> drag goes down something like 60%. >> >> I've seen a dozen or so flying Europas now and I've been very surprised >> that >> no one I've seen is installing flap gap seals and positive seals on the >> ailerons, rudder and trim tabs. Stopping the pressure equalization >> between the >> upper and lower surfaces of the wings and stab, plus the left and right >> side of >> the rudder has been shown to significantly improve sailplane performance. >> It's puzzling to me that more Europaphiles aren't using these techniques. >> >> On another note, my Sensenich hollow carbon prop arrived yesterday. All I >> can say is "WOW". The quality is excellent! I'll let everybody know what >> it >> weighs shortly. >> >> Regards, >> >> John Lawton >> Dunlap, TN >> A-245 (Installing the prop today....) > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:59 PM PST US From: "KARL HEINDL" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Drag Reduction --> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" Fred, Go to the nearest gliding club to check it out. They will also tell you where you can buy it. It is a self-adhesive strip which is attached to the wing, and takes only minutes to apply. I doubt that it makes any improvement to the Europa, but a high performance glider is in a different class in regards to aerodynamics. Karl >From: Fred Klein >Reply-To: europa-list@matronics.com >To: europa-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Drag Reduction >Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:36:26 -0800 > >--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein > > >On Tuesday, November 29, 2005, at 06:38 AM, TELEDYNMCS@aol.com wrote: > > >> Stopping the pressure equalization between the > >> upper and lower surfaces of the wings and stab, plus the left and > >> right side of > >> the rudder has been shown to significantly improve sailplane > >> performance. > >> It's puzzling to me that more Europaphiles aren't using these > >> techniques. > >> > >> John Lawton > >John, > >Can you describe the nature of the gap seals you allude to? >With regard to flap seals, would they be on the top, underside, or on >both wing surfaces? >If on the underside, are you suggesting a closure strip attached to the >wing and tight to the underside of the flap which would flex and slide >along the flap surface when the flaps are lowered? >Would such a strip be taped to the wing, or glued, with the forward >edge faired into the wing surface to mitigate any bump caused by the >thickness off the gap seal strip? >What material would you propose to use for such seals? > >Any thoughts on Glenn Crowder's inquiry regarding negative flap >settings? > >Fred >A194 > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:20:07 PM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: RE: Europa-List: woodcomp/kremen props [was: conventional gear] --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson At 2005-11-29 00:14 +0000 R.C.Harrison wrote: >and Bryan Allsop DOH! and he's only had 3 articles in the Europa Flyer about it ... thanks, Bob, for waking me up. Jack - Bryan's engine is a 912S - see EF for his contact details. regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson (retiring) Europa Club Membership Secretary - email for info! | Europa 435 G-ROWI (750 hours building) PFA #16532 | e-mail website ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:21:50 PM PST US From: "Cliff Shaw" Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" Dave Kim Prout put me on to a slick way to add weight to the Europa tail. He showed me a short section of pipe of brass rod that was sized just right. He pulled off his TPs and slipped this weighted pipe inside the tube that the TPs mount on. I did this with an alum pipe filled with melted tire weights. I made two 5.5 lb pipes and moved my CG one inch aft. I am now fly this way and think that it is easier to land. Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE The next question would be, has anyone come up with a safe, secure and simple method of adding weight in the tail. Dave A061 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:20:26 PM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Hey Guys...Speaking of drag... From: "Terry Seaver (terrys)" --> Europa-List message posted by: "Terry Seaver (terrys)" No one has said anything about the XS cowl. I would bet that is where the most improvement in drag reduction could be made. Besides having rather poor cooling characteristics, I believe it has rather bad aerodynamics. For example; 1) After very carefully fairing our monowheel in, we found no improvement in cruise speed. We suspect because the lower cowl is messing up the air so badly in front of the main gear (mono-wheel). 2) In a recent magazine article on a mono-wheeled motor glider, they said they measured no difference in glide ratio, gear-up vs gear-down, again, I suspect because the lower cowl is producing copious amounts of turbulence in front of the gear. Just my $.02, Terry Seaver A135 / N135TD -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Duncan McFadyean Subject: Re: Europa-List: Hey Guys... --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" --> I found a 9+ mph speed increase from fitting spats to 500x5 wheels on my TD. I got a further 10 mph from leg fairings, but in this instance you have to bear in mind that the rectangular section gearleg provides about 50 sq. ins of flat plate area; whereas the tri-gear legs present an elliptical section to the relative airflow. Further, the low point of application of undercarriage drag means that an equal and opposite moment has to be provided by the tailplane, creating more trim drag. So the effect of the fairings was a win-win benefit. Have not found anything like as much gain in any other single area of drag reduction. Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Europa-List: Hey Guys... > --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com > > > Speed Kit, > > > Still no answers! I am fitting my speed kit to my Tri Gear and still > hoped > that someone would tell me if I am doing this to gain extra > performance/better fuel figures , or am I just doing a cosmetic job? > > Any more comments?. The correspondence has been interesting and I > suppose > that we shall only get subjective points of view on many aspects of the > aeroplane but the question of whether a speed kit is effective, > performance wise, > should be relatively easy to answer - or do I have to wait until I can > get > airborne again.? > > Please !!! > > Patrick > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:23:52 PM PST US Received-SPF: pass (congo.terra.com.br: domain of terra.com.br designates 200.176.10.2 as permitted sender) client-ip=200.176.10.2; envelope-from=kaarsber@terra.com.br; helo=terra.com.br; (authenticated user kaarsber) From: Alexander Kaarsberg Subject: Europa-List: Battery location --> Europa-List message posted by: Alexander Kaarsberg Has anybody ever considered putting the battery under the center console in the trigear? I was thinking of a sleigh-type arrangement for the battery with a trim handle input to it, could kill a few birds with one stone...(?) It would obviously need some extra strength in the area to support the weight, but could be worth some work. Alex, kit 529 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:19 PM PST US From: Jeff B Subject: Re: Europa-List: Hey Guys... --> Europa-List message posted by: Jeff B Patrick, I got a 6kt gain in cruise and it looks a hell of a lot better... Sexy, it has been called, on many occasions... Jeff - N55XS 110 hrs BEBERRY@aol.com wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com > > > > Speed Kit, > > > Still no answers! I am fitting my speed kit to my Tri Gear and still hoped > that someone would tell me if I am doing this to gain extra > performance/better fuel figures , or am I just doing a cosmetic job? > > Any more comments?. The correspondence has been interesting and I suppose > that we shall only get subjective points of view on many aspects of the > aeroplane but the question of whether a speed kit is effective, performance wise, > should be relatively easy to answer - or do I have to wait until I can get > airborne again.? > > Please !!! > > Patrick > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 03:52:15 PM PST US From: "Cliff Shaw" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Drag Reduction --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" Fred I found help looking at pages like this. http://www.wingsandwheels.com/textindex.htm After building as careful as I could, I decided that gap seals on the ailerons would not be of much help. My fit is very close and works smoothly. Now on your rudder you might need some help if you don't use a 48" hinge like I did. On the flaps, I think something might help, but remember they are slotted /fowler flaps and must vent air when deployed. The gap seal would only be active when the flaps are up and mine fit nearly as tight as my ailerons. I have not installed any glider type gap seals. A note here, I did close-out all the ends of my control surfaces smoothly fining in the void after the regular close-out. I think this makes for less air turbulence spilling over the end of the surfaces. Also I made a smooth faring from my flaps to the fuselage. I would build it a bit bigger and a little differently if I were to do it again. I know your guys in the UK have a devil of a time making these kinds of mods to your Europas, but us in the left side have still some latitude to "experiment". I love building, only if my wife would let me do anothere one :) ! Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:59 PM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Hey Guys...Speaking of drag... --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" Regarding point 2,.... not necessarily so. According to research reported in NACA Paper no ** (haven't got no. to hand currently, but will find if you're interested), the amount by which the monowheel retracts (i.e. with 1/2 to 1/3 still hanging out) provides insignificant drag reduction. Added to which there is probably a lot of drag caused by circulation of air in the wheel well, although your fairing (if also well sealed around the edges of the wheel) had no benefit. Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Seaver (terrys)" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Hey Guys...Speaking of drag... > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Terry Seaver (terrys)" > > > No one has said anything about the XS cowl. I would bet that is where > the most improvement in drag reduction could be made. Besides having > rather poor cooling characteristics, I believe it has rather bad > aerodynamics. For example; > > 1) After very carefully fairing our monowheel in, we found no > improvement in cruise speed. We suspect because the lower cowl is > messing up the air so badly in front of the main gear (mono-wheel). > > 2) In a recent magazine article on a mono-wheeled motor glider, they > said they measured no difference in glide ratio, gear-up vs gear-down, > again, I suspect because the lower cowl is producing copious amounts of > turbulence in front of the gear. > > Just my $.02, > Terry Seaver > A135 / N135TD > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Duncan > McFadyean > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Hey Guys... > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" > --> > > I found a 9+ mph speed increase from fitting spats to 500x5 wheels on my > TD. > I got a further 10 mph from leg fairings, but in this instance you have > to bear in mind that the rectangular section gearleg provides about 50 > sq. ins of flat plate area; whereas the tri-gear legs present an > elliptical section to the relative airflow. > > Further, the low point of application of undercarriage drag means that > an equal and opposite moment has to be provided by the tailplane, > creating more trim drag. So the effect of the fairings was a win-win > benefit. > > Have not found anything like as much gain in any other single area of > drag reduction. > > > Duncan McF. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Hey Guys... > > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com >> >> >> Speed Kit, >> >> >> Still no answers! I am fitting my speed kit to my Tri Gear and still > >> hoped >> that someone would tell me if I am doing this to gain extra >> performance/better fuel figures , or am I just doing a cosmetic job? >> >> Any more comments?. The correspondence has been interesting and I >> suppose >> that we shall only get subjective points of view on many aspects of > the >> aeroplane but the question of whether a speed kit is effective, >> performance wise, >> should be relatively easy to answer - or do I have to wait until I > can >> get >> airborne again.? >> >> Please !!! >> >> Patrick >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:57:32 PM PST US From: "Cliff Shaw" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Hey Guys...Speaking of drag... --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" Terry I sometimes don't agree with you Terry, but on this cowling thing, I second your guess. Maybe that is what I will work on next ?! :) Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE No one has said anything about the XS cowl. I would bet that is where the most improvement in drag reduction could be made. ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 04:16:46 PM PST US From: Subject: RE: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: Cliff "I did this with an alum pipe filled with melted tire weights. I made two 5.5 lb pipes and moved my CG one inch aft. I am now fly this way and think that it is easier to land. " Perhaps that is why your speed is the same with the nose drag as it was with the tail wheel? Tom -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cliff Shaw Subject: Re: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" Dave Kim Prout put me on to a slick way to add weight to the Europa tail. He showed me a short section of pipe of brass rod that was sized just right. He pulled off his TPs and slipped this weighted pipe inside the tube that the TPs mount on. I did this with an alum pipe filled with melted tire weights. I made two 5.5 lb pipes and moved my CG one inch aft. I am now fly this way and think that it is easier to land. Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE The next question would be, has anyone come up with a safe, secure and simple method of adding weight in the tail. Dave A061 -- -- ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 05:05:08 PM PST US From: JEFF ROBERTS Subject: Re: Europa-List: Hey Guys... --> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS Oh Know! If my wife hears anyone call the Europa sexy one more time I'll have to move into the shop. Jeff A258 128LJ Interior going in. Ah Do Not Archive On Nov 29, 2005, at 5:32 PM, Jeff B wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: Jeff B > > Patrick, > > I got a 6kt gain in cruise and it looks a hell of a lot better... > Sexy, > it has been called, on many occasions... > > Jeff - N55XS > 110 hrs > > BEBERRY@aol.com wrote: >> --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com >> >> >> >> Speed Kit, >> >> >> Still no answers! I am fitting my speed kit to my Tri Gear and >> still hoped >> that someone would tell me if I am doing this to gain extra >> performance/better fuel figures , or am I just doing a cosmetic job? >> >> Any more comments?. The correspondence has been interesting and I >> suppose >> that we shall only get subjective points of view on many aspects of >> the >> aeroplane but the question of whether a speed kit is effective, >> performance wise, >> should be relatively easy to answer - or do I have to wait until I >> can get >> airborne again.? >> >> Please !!! >> >> Patrick >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:36 PM PST US From: "Steve Hagar" Subject: RE: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] --> Europa-List message posted by: "Steve Hagar" If you are adding weight back there make it something useful. If you have a taildragger put on a beefier tailwheel. If you have a 914 put an oxygen bottle back there. Steve Hagar hagargs@earthlink.net > [Original Message] > From: > To: > Date: 11/29/2005 9:48:10 AM > Subject: RE: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com > > Thanks Paul, > > I should do the arithmetic and see what it would take to optimise the C of > G. If adding a few pounds would add a knot or two, then it would be > worthwhile. > My battery is on the firewall and I can't see moving it. > The next question would be, has anyone come up with a safe, secure and > simple method of adding weight in the tail. > > > Dave A061 > > > "Paul McAllister" > Sent by: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > 11/29/2005 10:52 AM > Please respond to europa-list > > > To: > cc: > Subject: RE: Europa-List: wheel landings [was: Flying a heavy Europa XS?] > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" > > > Dave, > > My C o G is on the front of the envelope in my 914 mono. I do know that > is > goes noticeably faster when its loaded up with a lot of gear in the back. > It is also significantly easier to land. > > I need 4 pounds in the tail to fix it, but after spending so much care in > keeping the weigh off I just can't bring myself to add wieght. I might > move > the battery further aft one of these days. > > Cheers, Paul > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:48 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Hey Guys...Speaking of drag... From: Fred Klein --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein For a very slick cowl and mono fairing, see Europa Photoshare, Oct. 23, 2004, a pix of Alex Bowman's ship...his cowl was made from a production quality mould. I'll post some more pix later this evening detailing his wheel fairing and showing some frontal views. The cowl has been specifically designed to minimize cooling drag and IMHO is a beauty to boot. Fred A194 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 10:16:49 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Hey Guys...Speaking of drag... From: Fred Klein --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein I've just sent six pixs of Bowman's cowling, cooling, and (almost) fully enclosed mono fairing to the matronics "Europa-list" photoshare. As I mentioned, he's paid particular attention to cowling aerodynamics and cooling drag to which he credits much of his ability to climb out of 2,000 feet w/ two on board at "over 200 mph". Unfortunately, I don't have more specific information (like rate of climb, ATP, etc.) for this performance anecdote, but I've talked w/ Alex at length and he's not the kind of guy to exaggerate or aggrandize...he is after all a retired RCAF senior test pilot; I do have some performance data he gave me back at Arlington/EAA, 2004 if anyone's interested. He also, of course, has the 130 hp Honda-based engine. Fred A194