Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:42 AM - Re: Re: woodcomp/kremen props [was: conventional gear] (Michel Auvray)
2. 12:50 AM - Re: Re: woodcomp/kremen props [was: conventional gear] (Michel Auvray)
3. 01:34 AM - Re: Drag Reduction (BEBERRY@aol.com)
4. 08:23 AM - Re: Drag Reduction (Fred Fillinger)
5. 08:39 AM - Re: Drag Reduction (BEBERRY@aol.com)
6. 09:43 AM - Re: Drag Reduction (Fred Fillinger)
7. 10:18 AM - Re: Drag Reduction (BEBERRY@aol.com)
8. 10:29 AM - Re: woodcomp/kremen props [was: conventional gear] (Trevpond@aol.com)
9. 10:51 AM - Re: Drag Reduction ()
10. 11:27 AM - Re: PFA Centre Tunnel Modification: was Battery location (G-IANI)
11. 12:15 PM - Re: PFA Centre Tunnel Modification: was Battery location (BEBERRY@aol.com)
12. 01:49 PM - Re: Drag Reduction (Duncan McFadyean)
13. 02:34 PM - Re: Drag Reduction (Peter Rees)
14. 02:40 PM - Re: Hey Guys... (Duncan McFadyean)
15. 03:44 PM - Re: Drag Reduction (Kingsley Hurst)
16. 04:22 PM - $1000 off Jabiru engines until year end (Andy Silvester)
17. 04:33 PM - Re: Drag Reduction (Fred Fillinger)
18. 04:41 PM - Re: Drag Reduction (Cliff Shaw)
19. 05:00 PM - Re: Drag Reduction (Duncan McFadyean)
20. 05:25 PM - Re: $1000 off Jabiru engines until year end (DuaneFamly@aol.com)
21. 06:45 PM - Re: $1000 off Jabiru engines until year end (Andy Silvester)
22. 06:54 PM - Re: Drag Reduction (D Wysong)
23. 09:00 PM - Re: Drag Reduction (Fred Fillinger)
24. 09:20 PM - Re: $1000 off Jabiru engines until year end (DuaneFamly@aol.com)
25. 09:22 PM - Re: Hey Guys... (Jeff B)
26. 09:23 PM - Re: $1000 off Jabiru engines until year end (DuaneFamly@aol.com)
27. 10:43 PM - Re: $1000 off Jabiru engines until year end (Andy Silvester)
28. 11:34 PM - Re: $1000 off Jabiru engines until year end (R.C.Harrison)
29. 11:44 PM - Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] (dralle@matronics.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: woodcomp/kremen props [was: conventional gear] |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Michel Auvray" <mau11@free.fr>
Bonjour Rowland,
Yes I know, here in France there is many woodcomp propellers installed on 912 since
long time with total satisfaction (before it is Kremen Junkers) but my problem
is an authorized letter to use this propeller on 912 from Europa to the
DGAC.
Not a letter with experiment report.
bientt,
======= le 30/11/2005, 23:40:55 vous criviez: =======
>--> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson <rowil@clara.net>
>
>At 2005-11-30 09:33 +0100 Michel Auvray wrote:
>
>>I use a SR2000 on my aircraft since 9 month the result is good
>
>Michel - thanks for the update - I have not heard any bad reports of
>the Kremen/Woodcomp props.
>
>>But the problem in France is French civil aviation administration
>>(DGAC) they recognize only the kit manufacturer not the PFA.
>>To day this propeller is not recognize by Europa because they sales
>>Airmaster propeller, and the company do not give a letter to the
>>French administration to use the woodcomp propeller, and to day we
>>are grounded with this propeller
>
>If I understand correctly - you're saying that your Europa is now
>grounded after operating OK with this prop for the previous 9 months.
>And if you cannot get some sort of approval document from the Europa
>factory, you must fit a different prop (Warp Drive, I assume) before
>you can fly again. If the DGAC allowed it to be fitted and used in
>the first place, why did they change their mind - was there an
>incident that prompted this grounding?
>
>>What solution do we have?
>
>I know that for various changes ("mods") to the Europa, PFA
>Engineering have asked the Europa company for a "letter of no
>technical objection" before approving the change. Perhaps this is
>also the case when fitting a prop different from the
>factory-recommended one. If so, Bryan Allsop would know as it seems
>he (or maybe William Mills? - more info is coming in daily!) was the
>first to fit a Kremen / Woodcomp prop to a 912S in UK. I am certain
>that David Joyce was the pioneer for the Kremen / 914 combination.
>
>IF such a letter was sent to the PFA by Europa, and IF Europa could
>be persuaded to send a similar letter (or just a photocopy?) to the
>right person at the DGAC, and IF that would be enough to satisfy the
>DGAC, maybe there is a solution!
>
>I suggest Bryan (912S), David (914) or Tim Houlihan (912) contact you
>off-list if they know of the existence of a "letter of no technical
>objection" referring to the Kremen / Woodcomp prop. The letter (if it
>exists) may be specific to the type of engine, so I think Tim might
>be your best contact as I believe you have a 912. If not
>engine-specific, probably David might be best.
>
>Hope this is of some help!
>
>regards
>
>Rowland
>--
>| Rowland Carson (retiring) Europa Club Membership Secretary - email for info!
>| Europa 435 G-ROWI (750 hours building) PFA #16532
>| e-mail <memsec@europaclub.org.uk> website <www.europaclub.org.uk>
>
>
= = = = = = = = = ========= = = = = = = = = =
Michel Auvray
mau11@free.fr
01/12/2005
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: woodcomp/kremen props [was: conventional gear] |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Michel Auvray" <mau11@free.fr>
Bonjour R.C.Harrison,
I think it is normal to promoting the propeller of their choice. It is not the
problem.
The french administration recognize only kit manufacturer autorities.
Our problem is an authorized letter to use this propeller on 912 from Europa to
the DGAC.
Not a letter with experiment report. It is the same for sensennish, or others propellers
mfg.
bientt,
======= le 30/11/2005, 15:37:31 vous criviez: =======
>--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
>
>Hi! Michel.
>I REALLY don't think you are entitled to decry Europa for promoting the
>propeller of their choice. Would you "shoot yourself in the foot"?
>Seems to me that your own authority has it's head up it's anus.
>You should make an approach to Kremen and and get the French Authorities
>to re-examine their "eyes closed attitude.
>Regards
>Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300 MT CS Prop.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel
>Auvray
>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Europa-List: woodcomp/kremen props [was: conventional gear]
>
>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Michel Auvray" <mau11@free.fr>
>
>Bonjour Rowland,
>I use a SR2000 on my aircraft since 9 month the result is good.
>
>But the problem in France is French civil aviation administration (DGAC)
>they recognize only the kit manufacturer not the PFA.
>To day this propeller is not recognize by Europa because they sales
>Airmaster propeller, and the company do not give a letter to the French
>administration to use the woodcomp propeller, and to day we are grounded
>with this propeller.
>In France many ultralight aircraft use this propeller with 912. Sames
>engine same propeller.
>But with Europa aircraft is no authorised for the reason explained on
>top.
>
>What solution do we have?
>
>I think this attitude is a high brakes and contrary the sales of many
>kits aircraft.
>Now mainly of the customers buy ultralight aircraft. The sales exploded
>in France mainly for the non open attitude of kit manufacturers in
>accordance with aviation administration.
>
>Personnally I am satisfied of my aircraft, but my next aircraft is not
>Europa for this attitude.
> bientt,
>Michel AUVRAY
>Builder N145 "F-PFGT"
>
>======= le 28/11/2005, 22:12:00 vous criviez: =======
>
>>--> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson <rowil@clara.net>
>>
>>At 2005-11-28 20:30 +0100 Jac van Heeswijk wrote:
>>
>>>Are you able (and willing) to mail me a survey of the Europa's that
>>>are flying with a 912S Rotax engine and a Woodcomp (or Kremen)
>>>propeller type SR 200 (3 blades)
>>
>>I have sent a fuller response direct to Jack. As far as I know, the
>>only Europas that have flown with any type of Kremen/Woodcomp
>>propellers are:
>>
>>F-PSLY 912
>>G-XSDJ 914
>>HB-YIE 912S
>>OK-EUR 914
>>
>>(I just remembered that Tim Houlihan's G-BZTH with a 912 is getting
>>one fitted, but not sure if it has flown or been cleared for flight
>>with it yet.)
>>
>>In addition to Jack, builders 402, 438, 486, 529, 556, A064, A061 all
>>plan to fit Kremen/Woodcomp props of some type.
>>
>>If anyone knows of any other Europas fitted with Kremen/Woodcomp
>>props, please let us know!
>>
>>regards
>>
>>Rowland
>>--
>>| Rowland Carson (retiring) Europa Club Membership Secretary - email
>for info!
>>| Europa 435 G-ROWI (750 hours building) PFA #16532
>>| e-mail <memsec@europaclub.org.uk> website <www.europaclub.org.uk>
>>
>>
>
>= = = = = = = = = ========= = = = = = = = = =
>Michel Auvray
>mau11@free.fr
>30/11/2005
>
>
= = = = = = = = = ========= = = = = = = = = =
Michel Auvray
mau11@free.fr
01/12/2005
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Drag Reduction |
--> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com
Hi everyone.
I am just completing the speed kit fitting (Tri Gear) and am modifying the
forward section of each of the main wheel fairings to cover and give - I hope-
a decent airflow in the area of the ugly join between the leg fairngs and
the wheel spats.
The minor tiny mod merely attaches a small half circle of surplus wheel
fairing material, about 15mm tall, fixed to conceal the gap at the bottom of the
leg fairing.
I am still relatively new to the Europa and have seen no other ideas about
this or any other way of reducing the interference drag at this point, so
maybe I am off beam but would welcome comments.
Patrick
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Drag Reduction |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
>...and am modifying the...a decent airflow in the area
> of the ugly join between the leg fairngs and the wheel spats.
>
> The minor tiny mod merely attaches a small half circle of
> surplus wheel fairing material, about 15mm tall, fixed to
> conceal the gap at the bottom of the leg fairing.
>
> Patrick
A definitive answer is either a) better; b) worse, or c) no change. :-)
It actually may be possible that interference drag is increased, if you
have a gear leg fairing. What I did is make an aerodynamic "spat" which
seals everything and mitigates interference drag. Latter BTW is the
effect of, especially with an acute angle of the gear leg, airflows of
different velocities mixing and going turbulent at the junction.
The "spat" the airframe manufacturers design here is probably by eye.
It's so commonly that they may just assume the effect is, net,
"proverse."
Reg,
Fred F.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Drag Reduction |
--> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com
I am inclined to think that the wheel leg fairings on the TG are really only
cosmetic in value - however this is considerable and does away to a large
extent with the rather 'spindly' appearance. - which has been adversely
commented on by friends with other earoplanes.
Mind you Europa is not unique in having this feature which looks inelegant
and incapable of supporting the imposed dynamic forces on landing in
particular.
Anyway, I have gone ahead and virtually completed my speed kit fit with the
supplied, very poor quality and badly finished pieces. Lots of filling,
sanding and painting now needed.
Patrick
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Drag Reduction |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
> I am inclined to think that the wheel leg fairings on the
> TG are really only cosmetic in value - however this is
> considerable and does away to a large extent with the
> rather 'spindly' appearance. - which has been adversely
> commented on by friends with other earoplanes.
> Patrick
I would be inclined to not bet on that. Hoerner's big old book is a
quick reference here. An angled, round gear leg has a drag coefficient
around .85, as an effective elliptical shape. A streamline shape in the
form of a fairing surrounding the leg is .35. So with similar frontal
area, that's a significant.drag reduction.
Fred F.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Drag Reduction |
--> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com
I am inclined to think that the wheel leg fairings on the
> TG are really only cosmetic in value - however this is
> considerable and does away to a large extent with the
> rather 'spindly' appearance. - which has been adversely
> commented on by friends with other earoplanes.
> Patrick
I would be inclined to not bet on that. Hoerner's big old book is a
quick reference here. An angled, round gear leg has a drag coefficient
around .85, as an effective elliptical shape. A streamline shape in the
form of a fairing surrounding the leg is .35. So with similar frontal
area, that's a significant.drag reduction.
Fred F.
Fred,
Well, I have not read the book and my aerodynamic knowledge is basic (like I
know how an a/c flies!) But your words are encouraging and one day I will
find out, mods, renovation and weather permitting!
Thanks , Patrick
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: woodcomp/kremen props [was: conventional gear] |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Trevpond@aol.com
Hi All,
You could try going the EASA route, after all I believe that they will
eventually be the approving authority for everything in European Aviation,
including "Experimental/Homebuilt aircraft"
Trev
Kit 598
Message 9
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--> Europa-List message posted by: <beecho@beecho.org>
Hi Fred
Do you think that fairings around the flap hinges are beneficial? I have
made them but am undecided abut mounting them. The frontal area of the
hinges isn't much and maybe the fairings will be adverse due to more skin
friction?
Tom Friedland
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Fillinger
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Drag Reduction
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
>...and am modifying the...a decent airflow in the area
> of the ugly join between the leg fairngs and the wheel spats.
>
> The minor tiny mod merely attaches a small half circle of surplus
> wheel fairing material, about 15mm tall, fixed to conceal the gap at
> the bottom of the leg fairing.
>
> Patrick
A definitive answer is either a) better; b) worse, or c) no change. :-) It
actually may be possible that interference drag is increased, if you have a
gear leg fairing. What I did is make an aerodynamic "spat" which seals
everything and mitigates interference drag. Latter BTW is the effect of,
especially with an acute angle of the gear leg, airflows of different
velocities mixing and going turbulent at the junction.
The "spat" the airframe manufacturers design here is probably by eye. It's
so commonly that they may just assume the effect is, net, "proverse."
Reg,
Fred F.
--
--
Message 10
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| Subject: | PFA Centre Tunnel Modification: was Battery location |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "G-IANI" <g-iani@ntlworld.com>
Patrick
attached are two pictures which may give you some ideas. My radio stack
comes out easily for access to the pumps below.
The third picture is the setup in G-IRON
Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
BEBERRY@aol.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: PFA Centre Tunnel Modification: was Battery
location
--> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com
Ian,
I have been thinking for some time that while I am working on my 914 I
would
like to alter the centre tunnel, in particular to get the fuel cock to sit
horizontally on top. Details of your mod would be much appreciated. As I
have
the parallel fuel pumps and filters on the deck of the tunnel, I would need
to retain easy access. Advice welcomed.
Patrick
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: PFA Centre Tunnel Modification: was Battery location |
--> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com
Thanks Ian but no pics attached!
Patrick
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Drag Reduction |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
I would agree with that, having also made, painted and finished a set of
Factory-spec fairings, then decided not to fit them.
Instead I have made another set that have less surface area, better shape
and smaller frontal area. Haven't fitted them yet.
BanBi obviously don't bother , although their hinges are smaller.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: <beecho@beecho.org>
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Drag Reduction
> --> Europa-List message posted by: <beecho@beecho.org>
>
> Hi Fred
>
> Do you think that fairings around the flap hinges are beneficial? I have
> made them but am undecided abut mounting them. The frontal area of the
> hinges isn't much and maybe the fairings will be adverse due to more skin
> friction?
>
> Tom Friedland
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred
> Fillinger
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Drag Reduction
>
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
>
>>...and am modifying the...a decent airflow in the area
>> of the ugly join between the leg fairngs and the wheel spats.
>>
>> The minor tiny mod merely attaches a small half circle of surplus
>> wheel fairing material, about 15mm tall, fixed to conceal the gap at
>> the bottom of the leg fairing.
>>
>> Patrick
>
> A definitive answer is either a) better; b) worse, or c) no change. :-)
> It
> actually may be possible that interference drag is increased, if you have
> a
> gear leg fairing. What I did is make an aerodynamic "spat" which seals
> everything and mitigates interference drag. Latter BTW is the effect of,
> especially with an acute angle of the gear leg, airflows of different
> velocities mixing and going turbulent at the junction.
>
> The "spat" the airframe manufacturers design here is probably by eye. It's
> so commonly that they may just assume the effect is, net, "proverse."
>
> Reg,
> Fred F.
>
>
> --
>
>
> --
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Drag Reduction |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees" <peter.rees05@ntlworld.com>
Don't suppose anyone in the UK has a set of leg fairings that they don't
intend to fit and are willing to sell to me. Ours didn't fit quite as
planned and don't look anywhere near as smart as the rest of the aeroplane.
Message 14
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Please define what precisely was involved in "tweaking"!
Duncan Mcf.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff B" <topglock@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Hey Guys...
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Jeff B <topglock@cox.net>
>
> Patrick,
>
> Since first flight, I've been "tweaking" my bird. Total improvement is
> almost 15 kts. Some is attributable to the fairings, some to the prop
> controller, some to cleaning up the bird in other ways. At any rate,
> the overall rate is good. Averaging 130 kts at 75%. Good enough for
> me...
>
> Jeff - N55XS
> 110 hrs...
>
> BEBERRY@aol.com wrote:
>
>> --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Jeff,
>>
>> The answers I have had vary from a 6 knot to a 9 knot gain. Not quite
>> the
>> 10 that the manufacturers but encouraging.
>>
>> Thanks. Patrick
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 15
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
Fred et al,
I have not commenced making any hinge fairings (Mono) yet partly because
I have no idea what would be the best profile for them. Can anyone
direct me to any reference material for such fairings please.
Just wondering, if I was to make them based on the upper half of the
wing profile, would that be a reasonable suggestion or does Reynolds
Number apply here and stuff if all up ? . . . . Not that I understand
Reynolds Number mind you, but I do know there is such an animal.
Cheers
Kingsley
Message 16
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| Subject: | $1000 off Jabiru engines until year end |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester" <andy@suncoastjabiru.com>
We're having an end-of-year sale for Jabiru engines with $1000 off the
current retail price! We also supply a full firewall - forward kit
including mount, cowls and all installation accessories for the Jabiru
3300 120 hp 6-cylinder engine. We can delay delivery for up to 3 months
if this fits better with builders' schedules. More details on our web
site. Apologies to those who'd prefer not to see 'commercials' on the
list but I think it will be of interest to some. Call or email me on or
off-list for more info.
Andy
Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc.
39248 South Ave, Zephyrhills, FL 33542
Tel: (813) 779 2324 Fax: (813) 779 2246
www.suncoastjabiru.com
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Drag Reduction |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
> Hi Fred
>
> Do you think that fairings around the flap hinges are beneficial? I
have
> made them but am undecided abut mounting them. The frontal area of
> the hinges isn't much and maybe the fairings will be adverse due to
> more skin friction?
>
> Tom Friedland
>
That proposition sounds good to me, meaning not a whole heck of a lot!
But once at Oshkosh, I asked Kim Prout why he didn't do that, and he's
said to be progeny of an actual aerodynamicist. He said probably +/-net
zero. Also, I think the Europa kit fairings are open at the back. Doc.
Sighard Hoerner says very bad. Don't do that. Negative pressure
streamline spills over the aft edge, looks inside the fairing and sees
roughly ambient pressure and no one home have to have any fun with.
Looks aft and sees unknown oblivion. So a pair of "vortex streets" are
created, requiring energy to spin. Like "marching in place" when I was
in the Army. :-)
Reg,
Fred F.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Drag Reduction |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" <flyinggpa@comcast.net>
Those interested in TG fairings
I flew my TG with and without the fairings in different combinations.
I am sure that the fairings on the landing gear struts are by fare the most beneficial.
I think they made a 5 MPH difference by themselves. They are not easy
to fit the way the factory kit does it. And I tried to do it better and failed.
New fairings for the landing gear struts will be another project I might do.
(easier to install and smoother trailing edge.)
I did make small fillet type fairing at the intersection of the landing gear strut
fairing and the fuse and the wheel pant. They should have been bigger I suppose,
but bigger would have been much harder to do. Sorry my web pictures don't
show much of that. (there is another to-do)
Just my 2 cents worth.
Cliff Shaw
1041 Euclid ave.
Edmonds, WA 98020
425 776 5555
http://www.europaowners.org/WileE
----- Original Message -----
From: beecho@beecho.org
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 10:49 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Drag Reduction
--> Europa-List message posted by: <beecho@beecho.org>
Hi Fred
Do you think that fairings around the flap hinges are beneficial? I have
made them but am undecided abut mounting them. The frontal area of the
hinges isn't much and maybe the fairings will be adverse due to more skin
friction?
Tom Friedland
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fred Fillinger
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Drag Reduction
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
>...and am modifying the...a decent airflow in the area
> of the ugly join between the leg fairngs and the wheel spats.
>
> The minor tiny mod merely attaches a small half circle of surplus
> wheel fairing material, about 15mm tall, fixed to conceal the gap at
> the bottom of the leg fairing.
>
> Patrick
A definitive answer is either a) better; b) worse, or c) no change. :-) It
actually may be possible that interference drag is increased, if you have a
gear leg fairing. What I did is make an aerodynamic "spat" which seals
everything and mitigates interference drag. Latter BTW is the effect of,
especially with an acute angle of the gear leg, airflows of different
velocities mixing and going turbulent at the junction.
The "spat" the airframe manufacturers design here is probably by eye. It's
so commonly that they may just assume the effect is, net, "proverse."
Reg,
Fred F.
--
--
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Drag Reduction |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
My current wheel fairings are dimensioned exactly as you have described,
plus a 3:1 L:D ratio.
The result is good , but I think alot of the result comes from having a
vertical split, which allows both a much closer fit around the wheel and no
protuberances forward of the 50% chord position (which is where the vertical
split is positioned and is slightly aft of maximum thickness point at 40%).
By way of comparison, my Mk I set of wheel fairings were very similar,
except with a 2.5:1 L:D. The speed increase was identical (as best I could
measure), the 'poorer' L:D being offset by the lower surface area. All in
accordance with the theory for bodies-of-revolution as described by NACA
following experiments on buoyant 'dolphins'.
But a lot of work making moulds etc just to get to that point!
Duncan McF
>
> I was the one suggesting laminar flow wheel pants. A theoretical,
> laminar-flow shape is not fully rounded at the front, but more pointy as
> on the Europa wing. It's fattest part is around 40-50% back. Toward
> the tail end of the fairing, it is concave, IOW, squished inward at the
> back, meaning then the tail is not pointy, but like a vertical fin.
> This means also that the sides are more flattish than rounded when
> viewed from the front. Also true might be the manufacturer of this
> thing doesn't have a wind tunnel, so what they claim in sales literature
> is based on whatever crude method used to test it if they did. On a
> "fat" airfoil like this, maintaining flow attachment gets tricky.
>
> When we add a fairing to a necessarily smaller tire, we're adding
> significant pressure drag (looking at the thing from the front, and
> friction drag (wetted area). Hoerner's text, e..g, documents the drag
> of exposed wheels and fat faring shapes, and in the chapter on wheel
> fairings (not of laminar flow type), he suggests a drag reduction of
> less than one-half that of a tire in the breeze, even with a "hubcap."
> He does document, however, much greater drag reduction if a round gear
> leg is faired, and that fairings are placed where the leg meets the
> fairing and up at the fuselage junction (eliminate interference drag).
>
> An example of this are the fairings on the Grumman AA-5, which they
> claim as only 2 MPH boost and which I can't really see when they're on
> or off. Too small, and thus requiring controlled testing. These are
> not laminar flow, but classic airfoil shape, and they did little to
> clean up the turbulent mess around the brake caliper, nor the
> interference drag at the gear-leg junction.
>
> Reg,
> Fred F.
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: $1000 off Jabiru engines until year end |
--> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com
Andy and All,
I think this is exactly the type of information that builders are looking
for. If someone wanted this engine for their XS what kind of price would they be
looking at for everything needed to get them off the ground? FWF kit and
engine, is that all that's needed? And to make matters worse, shipping it from
Florida to Northern California by ground.
Mike Duane
Redding, California 96001
XS Conventional Gear
Message 21
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| Subject: | $1000 off Jabiru engines until year end |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester" <andy@suncoastjabiru.com>
Mike,
Normal pricing would be:
Jabiru 3300 engine: $14,900.00 Includes muffler, rubber mount bushings,
starter, starter relay, alternator, voltage regulator, oil cooler with
engine adaptor, misc hardware and documentation on CD
Firewall Forward package: $3255.00 includes engine mount, Suncoast
Europa Upper / lower cowling, special ram-air cooling ducts, matching
spinner, airbox, Ducting, hoses and clamps, Throttle
linkage-to-carburetor kit, choke and carburetor heat cables, fuel
bulkhead fitting, fuel and oil lines and firesleeve, Oil overflow pipe,
oil overflow bottle and clamp, battery box and hardware, Odyssey
battery, 63mm propeller extension.
This totals $18,155. The only other item is a propeller; a 2 - blade
Sensenich glass-reinforced wood prop is $935 and the new carbon Ground
Adjustable Sensenich prop is $1550.00. Shipping of the complete kit to
California will be, with insurance about $170 (max). So normally around
$19,000 with a wood prop and $19,700 with the Carbon, plus shipping. The
current sale price discounts the total by $1000 and I'll throw-in free
shipping (USA mainland only) if it's all ordered together.
There you have it!
Let me know if you have further questions.
Andy
Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc.
39248 South Ave, Zephyrhills, FL 33542
Tel: (813) 779 2324 Fax: (813) 779 2246
www.suncoastjabiru.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
DuaneFamly@aol.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: $1000 off Jabiru engines until year end
--> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com
Andy and All,
I think this is exactly the type of information that builders are
looking
for. If someone wanted this engine for their XS what kind of price would
they be
looking at for everything needed to get them off the ground? FWF kit and
engine, is that all that's needed? And to make matters worse, shipping
it from
Florida to Northern California by ground.
Mike Duane
Redding, California 96001
XS Conventional Gear
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Drag Reduction |
--> Europa-List message posted by: D Wysong <hdwysong@gmail.com>
In the mid-90's, the Long-EZ/pusher drivers started looking at oil flows
around all of the aero mod's they were making. New cowls with
female/NACA ducts instead of the male/"P-51" inlets, new leg fairings,
new downdraft cooling inlets, etc... all of these were tweaked using oil
flows. A few REALLY fast airplanes emerged... while the rest (i.e -
those that weren't interested in flying around with their hair on fire)
got to enjoy the improved fuel economy.
How about putting a little used engine oil to work and taking a few
digital pics? It's easier to tell what the air is doing around those
gaps and fairings and joints and inlets and such when you can SEE the
air. Sure, you'll need a few rags afterwards... but it'll be worth the
bragging rights if you end up with the cleanest streamlines around your
latest 'speed' mod. ;-)
Here's an example of a clean airplane + a little dirty oil:
http://www.standardcirrus.org/OilFlows.html
Just a thought...
D
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Drag Reduction |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
> Just wondering, if I was to make them based on the upper half of the
> wing profile, would that be a reasonable suggestion or does Reynolds
> Number apply here and stuff if all up ? . . . . Not that I understand
> Reynolds Number mind you, but I do know there is such an animal.
>
> Cheers
> Kingsley
Hoerner doesn't suggest laminar flow techniques as relevant for small
airfoil sections, like struts, or gear leg or similar small fairings.
Classic airfoil shape OK. Not that I understand it all either, but he
does document an effect called "critical Reynolds number" on the these
small airfoils, where beyond a certain R'number (derived from velocity
and chord length), drag increases dramatically. Like around 10 to the
4th power, where our wings I think are like around 10 to the seventh.
One of our EAA Chapter members is an actual NASA scientist working out
at nearby NASA-Glenn Research (now working temporarily in the UK, BTW).
He talked to our meeting once about one of his projects, namely
super-low Reynolds number flying machines. R'numbers in the hundreds, I
think he said. Well, I guess if NASA-Glenn has a really noisy Mach 6
tunnel, they can do really super-subsonic too. Actually I got two
detailed tours of that awesome place, on gov't salary on other gov't
agency business. Not your usual public tour, and adjacent to the big
Cleveland airport, I just like, flew there to commute to work. Ask for
the right FBO off famous Taxiway R and you can quickly walk to NASA.
Embarrassing even to accept compensation via taxpayer dollars.
Why his research? Well, the proposal was an unmanned airplane on Planet
Mars. What was fascinating is how he related aerodynamic lift/drag
effects up there in their gravity and atmosphere, and the type of winged
vehicle needed in subcritical R'numbers. Almost like if there ever were
a Martian civilization, they would have discovered flight very early on.
Little "grey guys" with big heads and almond-shaped eyes, flitting about
using "flatulence" for propulsion -- the off-the-chart numbers he gave
us!
Fred F.
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: $1000 off Jabiru engines until year end |
--> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com
Andy,
That's a good deal...is there some reason that you wouldn't want the Forum to
know the details? It'll be between us if that's the case.
Mike
Message 25
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Jeff B <topglock@cox.net>
"Tweaking": US term for tinkering things into a more precise
condition... Unofficial definition, of course.
What I did: Basically it encompassed working to improve the whole
airplane. Fine tuning the engine, mainly through the carbs. Working to
remove any vibrations, such as balancing the prop, etc. Filling gaps
around the wing fairings, wheel fairings and LG fairings, covering pip
pin access holes. Testing for power settings that gave maximum speed
and still maintained optimum fuel efficency. I found that, with the
airmaster prop (on the 912S), 27.5" - 28" MAP @ 5000 rpm yeilds right at
130 kts and still maintains the fuel consumption at, or below, 4.5 US
gal per hour.
Don't know it this answers your query, Duncan, but it's what worked for
me... ;)
Jeff - N55XS
110 hrs...
Duncan McFadyean wrote:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> Please define what precisely was involved in "tweaking"!
>
> Duncan Mcf.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff B" <topglock@cox.net>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Hey Guys...
>
>
>
>>--> Europa-List message posted by: Jeff B <topglock@cox.net>
>>
>>Patrick,
>>
>>Since first flight, I've been "tweaking" my bird. Total improvement is
>>almost 15 kts. Some is attributable to the fairings, some to the prop
>>controller, some to cleaning up the bird in other ways. At any rate,
>>the overall rate is good. Averaging 130 kts at 75%. Good enough for
>>me...
>>
>>Jeff - N55XS
>>110 hrs...
>>
>>BEBERRY@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>>--> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Hi Jeff,
>>>
>>>The answers I have had vary from a 6 knot to a 9 knot gain. Not quite
>>>the
>>>10 that the manufacturers but encouraging.
>>>
>>>Thanks. Patrick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: $1000 off Jabiru engines until year end |
--> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com
All,
Sorry...that was suppose to go to Andy. but I guess I got my answer.
Mike Duane
Do Not Archive
Message 27
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| Subject: | $1000 off Jabiru engines until year end |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester" <andy@suncoastjabiru.com>
Mike,
I thought I had posted it to the forum...didn't it post?
Andy
Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc.
39248 South Ave, Zephyrhills, FL 33542
Tel: (813) 779 2324 Fax: (813) 779 2246
www.suncoastjabiru.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
DuaneFamly@aol.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: $1000 off Jabiru engines until year end
--> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com
Andy,
That's a good deal...is there some reason that you wouldn't want the
Forum to
know the details? It'll be between us if that's the case.
Mike
Message 28
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| Subject: | $1000 off Jabiru engines until year end |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Hi!Andy
Just an item of my observation........You are including a 63mm prop
extension? A Peter Warren in NZ has had a 3300 crank break with a two
inch extension at 12 hours and the pictures look like resonance fatigue
to my experience? I'm concerned for you with the American Litigation
Scene.
Regards
Bob Harrison .
Robt.C.Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andy
Silvester
Subject: RE: Europa-List: $1000 off Jabiru engines until year end
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester"
<andy@suncoastjabiru.com>
Mike,
Normal pricing would be:
Jabiru 3300 engine: $14,900.00 Includes muffler, rubber mount bushings,
starter, starter relay, alternator, voltage regulator, oil cooler with
engine adaptor, misc hardware and documentation on CD
Firewall Forward package: $3255.00 includes engine mount, Suncoast
Europa Upper / lower cowling, special ram-air cooling ducts, matching
spinner, airbox, Ducting, hoses and clamps, Throttle
linkage-to-carburetor kit, choke and carburetor heat cables, fuel
bulkhead fitting, fuel and oil lines and firesleeve, Oil overflow pipe,
oil overflow bottle and clamp, battery box and hardware, Odyssey
battery, 63mm propeller extension.
This totals $18,155. The only other item is a propeller; a 2 - blade
Sensenich glass-reinforced wood prop is $935 and the new carbon Ground
Adjustable Sensenich prop is $1550.00. Shipping of the complete kit to
California will be, with insurance about $170 (max). So normally around
$19,000 with a wood prop and $19,700 with the Carbon, plus shipping. The
current sale price discounts the total by $1000 and I'll throw-in free
shipping (USA mainland only) if it's all ordered together.
There you have it!
Let me know if you have further questions.
Andy
Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc.
39248 South Ave, Zephyrhills, FL 33542
Tel: (813) 779 2324 Fax: (813) 779 2246
www.suncoastjabiru.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
DuaneFamly@aol.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: $1000 off Jabiru engines until year end
--> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com
Andy and All,
I think this is exactly the type of information that builders are
looking
for. If someone wanted this engine for their XS what kind of price would
they be
looking at for everything needed to get them off the ground? FWF kit and
engine, is that all that's needed? And to make matters worse, shipping
it from
Florida to Northern California by ground.
Mike Duane
Redding, California 96001
XS Conventional Gear
Message 29
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| Subject: | Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] |
DNA: do not archive
--> Europa-List message posted by: dralle@matronics.com
Dear Lister,
Please read over the Europa-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Europa-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Europa-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Europa-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Europa-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Europa-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Europa-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
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the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
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that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
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about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
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