---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 12/02/05: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:13 AM - Re: Drag Reduction (BEBERRY@aol.com) 2. 01:21 AM - Re: $1000 off Jabiru engines until year end (BEBERRY@aol.com) 3. 02:24 AM - drag reduction (Graham Singleton) 4. 05:18 AM - Re: $1000 off Jabiru engines until year end (Andy Silvester) 5. 02:00 PM - Re: Drag Reduction (Duncan McFadyean) 6. 02:02 PM - Re: Drag Reduction (Duncan McFadyean) 7. 02:42 PM - Re: Web Site (steve v.) 8. 03:20 PM - Reflexed flaps for drag reduction (GLENN CROWDER) 9. 04:31 PM - Re: Reflexed flaps for drag reduction (Fred Klein) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:13:07 AM PST US From: BEBERRY@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Drag Reduction --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com Kingsley. The hinge fairings were the first part of my speed kit to be fitted and it was a relatively easy task ( if you already don't have 'em you can incorporate tie downs at the same time). The finish and general fittability is much better than the wheel and leg fairings and maybe they can be bought as a separate item. As to shape - well they look o.k. and must improve the disturbance of airflow around the obtrusive hinges. No tests done on performance increase (or otherswise) but others may know. Patrick ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:21:10 AM PST US From: BEBERRY@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: $1000 off Jabiru engines until year end --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com Mike - yes it posted. I am very envious of your U.S. prices. Patrick ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:24:58 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Europa-List: drag reduction --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton /By way of comparison, my Mk I set of wheel fairings were very similar, except with a 2.5:1 L:D. The speed increase was identical (as best I could measure), the 'poorer' L:D being offset by the lower surface area. All in accordance with the theory for bodies-of-revolution as described by NACA following experiments on buoyant 'dolphins'. But a lot of work making moulds etc just to get to that point! Duncan McF /Duncan the two guys I know with a successful track record are Klaus Savier and Gary Hertzler. Both are winners, Klaus at Reno and others Gary a CAFE winner. Have a look at Klaus' wheel pant design, its optimised to get good pressure recovery which is the key to low drag. The shape is usually referred to as "Hershy Kiss" because of the reflexed trailing edge,perhaps? Klaus will tell you that the TE must be closed as Fred remarked. Both of these guys spent a lot of time streamlining things inside the cowling,even to the extent of making a streamlined sump for their engines, O-200 and O-235 Gear leg fairings; the most important thing is to be in line with the airflow, and that isn't easy. This is what all the top EZ people say. Make foam fairings in sections a few inches long, attach with fast cure micro, then fly at cruise speed till it sets? Might work. It would be very interesting to see what twist evolves. Perhaps safer to tie on wool tufts up the leg, go fly and photograph. Graham ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:06 AM PST US From: "Andy Silvester" Subject: RE: Europa-List: $1000 off Jabiru engines until year end --> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester" Hi Bob, The 2" prop extension is for wooden or composite ground adjustable props only. Other prop manufacturers like Airmaster provide their own extension more suited to the needs of a heavier prop. Thanks for pointing it out. Regards, Andy Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. www.suncoastjabiru.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of R.C.Harrison Subject: RE: Europa-List: $1000 off Jabiru engines until year end --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi!Andy Just an item of my observation........You are including a 63mm prop extension? A Peter Warren in NZ has had a 3300 crank break with a two inch extension at 12 hours and the pictures look like resonance fatigue to my experience? I'm concerned for you with the American Litigation Scene. Regards Bob Harrison . Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andy Silvester Subject: RE: Europa-List: $1000 off Jabiru engines until year end --> Europa-List message posted by: "Andy Silvester" Mike, Normal pricing would be: Jabiru 3300 engine: $14,900.00 Includes muffler, rubber mount bushings, starter, starter relay, alternator, voltage regulator, oil cooler with engine adaptor, misc hardware and documentation on CD Firewall Forward package: $3255.00 includes engine mount, Suncoast Europa Upper / lower cowling, special ram-air cooling ducts, matching spinner, airbox, Ducting, hoses and clamps, Throttle linkage-to-carburetor kit, choke and carburetor heat cables, fuel bulkhead fitting, fuel and oil lines and firesleeve, Oil overflow pipe, oil overflow bottle and clamp, battery box and hardware, Odyssey battery, 63mm propeller extension. This totals $18,155. The only other item is a propeller; a 2 - blade Sensenich glass-reinforced wood prop is $935 and the new carbon Ground Adjustable Sensenich prop is $1550.00. Shipping of the complete kit to California will be, with insurance about $170 (max). So normally around $19,000 with a wood prop and $19,700 with the Carbon, plus shipping. The current sale price discounts the total by $1000 and I'll throw-in free shipping (USA mainland only) if it's all ordered together. There you have it! Let me know if you have further questions. Andy Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc. 39248 South Ave, Zephyrhills, FL 33542 Tel: (813) 779 2324 Fax: (813) 779 2246 www.suncoastjabiru.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DuaneFamly@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: $1000 off Jabiru engines until year end --> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com Andy and All, I think this is exactly the type of information that builders are looking for. If someone wanted this engine for their XS what kind of price would they be looking at for everything needed to get them off the ground? FWF kit and engine, is that all that's needed? And to make matters worse, shipping it from Florida to Northern California by ground. Mike Duane Redding, California 96001 XS Conventional Gear ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:00:59 PM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Drag Reduction --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" Agreed. And it is possible to make hinge fairings with no open trailing edge (or at least, in the case of the outboard hinge, very little (i.e. 1")). And better shape and less frontal area. Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Fillinger" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Drag Reduction > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" > >> Hi Fred >> >> Do you think that fairings around the flap hinges are beneficial? I > have >> made them but am undecided abut mounting them. The frontal area of >> the hinges isn't much and maybe the fairings will be adverse due to >> more skin friction? >> >> Tom Friedland >> > > That proposition sounds good to me, meaning not a whole heck of a lot! > But once at Oshkosh, I asked Kim Prout why he didn't do that, and he's > said to be progeny of an actual aerodynamicist. He said probably +/-net > zero. Also, I think the Europa kit fairings are open at the back. Doc. > Sighard Hoerner says very bad. Don't do that. Negative pressure > streamline spills over the aft edge, looks inside the fairing and sees > roughly ambient pressure and no one home have to have any fun with. > Looks aft and sees unknown oblivion. So a pair of "vortex streets" are > created, requiring energy to spin. Like "marching in place" when I was > in the Army. :-) > > Reg, > Fred F. > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:02:31 PM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Drag Reduction --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" Done all that. No big surprises on a Europa (TD). Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "D Wysong" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Drag Reduction > --> Europa-List message posted by: D Wysong > > In the mid-90's, the Long-EZ/pusher drivers started looking at oil flows > around all of the aero mod's they were making. New cowls with > female/NACA ducts instead of the male/"P-51" inlets, new leg fairings, > new downdraft cooling inlets, etc... all of these were tweaked using oil > flows. A few REALLY fast airplanes emerged... while the rest (i.e - > those that weren't interested in flying around with their hair on fire) > got to enjoy the improved fuel economy. > > How about putting a little used engine oil to work and taking a few > digital pics? It's easier to tell what the air is doing around those > gaps and fairings and joints and inlets and such when you can SEE the > air. Sure, you'll need a few rags afterwards... but it'll be worth the > bragging rights if you end up with the cleanest streamlines around your > latest 'speed' mod. ;-) > > Here's an example of a clean airplane + a little dirty oil: > http://www.standardcirrus.org/OilFlows.html > > Just a thought... > > D > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:42:50 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: RE: Web Site From: "steve v." 0.64 REPLY_TO_EMPTY Reply-To: is empty --> Europa-List message posted by: "steve v." nice site, well done. steve#573 ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:20:27 PM PST US From: "GLENN CROWDER" Subject: Europa-List: Reflexed flaps for drag reduction --> Europa-List message posted by: "GLENN CROWDER" I am interested in trying reflexing the flaps a few degrees for drag reduction in cruise. I talked to a Lancair 360 owner yesterday who has this ability. He has played with them a bit but only at high altitude without any spectacular effects. He notes that he has to fly at a slightly higher angle of attack when reflexing the flaps so he thinks the net result for him is a wash but wants to try them at lower altitudes. The Lancair wing is so small and has a much higher wing loading so that reflexing the flaps cuts a lot of wing area. On the Europa with a larger wing and lighter wing loading, results could be more positive. Just about all modern sailplanes have this ability, cutting induced drag in cruise mode. It seems that it would be fairly easy to try on the TG, probably harder on the Mono with the outrigger operation possibly being affected. I've been thru the archives and couldn't find anyone who had actually tried it. I'm thinking of a two position cam-over type linkage that would shorten the flap rod possibly a quarter inch or so when activated during cruise. It would be fairly easy to access thru the center console on my bird. Glenn ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:31:19 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Reflexed flaps for drag reduction From: Fred Klein --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein Glenn, do be careful w/ your linkages...you're much more of an adventurist than I! ...but what do I know? Do da word "flutter" ring a bell? Fred do not archive On Friday, December 2, 2005, at 03:18 PM, GLENN CROWDER wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "GLENN CROWDER" > > > I am interested in trying reflexing the flaps a few degrees for drag > reduction in cruise. > > I'm thinking of a two position cam-over type linkage that would > shorten the flap rod possibly a quarter inch or so > when activated during cruise. It would be fairly easy to access thru > the center console on my bird. > > Glenn >