Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:32 AM - vacuum gauge (BEBERRY@aol.com)
2. 03:11 AM - Test (PATRICK TUNNEY)
3. 03:14 AM - Re: vacuum gauge (Richard Holder)
4. 03:32 AM - Web Site (PATRICK TUNNEY)
5. 06:06 AM - Europa XS Tri Gear Kit FOR SALE (rlaviation@aol.com)
6. 07:28 AM - Negative Flaps (TELEDYNMCS@AOL.COM)
7. 08:39 AM - Re: Woodcomp/Kremen prop (Jac van Heeswijk)
8. 09:17 AM - Re: Negative Flaps (GLENN CROWDER)
9. 09:32 AM - Re: Re: Woodcomp/Kremen prop (David Joyce)
10. 12:28 PM - [ Fred R. Klein ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
11. 01:14 PM - black body radioation (Thomas Scherer)
12. 01:36 PM - Re: black body radioation (Cliff Shaw)
13. 02:03 PM - Re: black body radioation (Richard Holder)
14. 02:09 PM - Re: black body radioation (Fred Fillinger)
15. 03:44 PM - Re: black body radioation (Kingsley Hurst)
16. 03:48 PM - Re: black body radioation (Duncan McFadyean)
17. 05:09 PM - Re: black body radioation (Rob Housman)
18. 05:14 PM - Future Europa Powerplant (GLENN CROWDER)
Message 1
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com
Being lazy and not wanting to remove rthe whole panel twice, between engine
runs, can anyone please answer me the following..
With Vac instruments there is a plastic pipe which connects the rear of the
AI with the rear of the vac gauge-on which are two identical male pipe
fittings. To which do I push on the plastic pipe please? Top or bottom?
Patrick
Message 2
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
0.64 REPLY_TO_EMPTY Reply-To: is empty
--> Europa-List message posted by: "PATRICK TUNNEY" <sue.pat@ntlworld.com>
Test Test
----------------
Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/
Message 3
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: vacuum gauge |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
> Being lazy and not wanting to remove rthe whole panel
> twice, between engine runs, can anyone please answer
> me the following..
>
> With Vac instruments there is a plastic pipe which
> connects the rear of the AI with the rear of the vac
> gauge-on which are two identical male pipe fittings.
> To which do I push on the plastic pipe please? Top or
> bottom?
>
> Patrick
Use mouth power !
Suck on one pipe fitting. If the gauge goes in the right
direction (ie towards the green band) then that is the one
to connect to the AI ! If not, check the other one - it
should be right !
Easy solutions are best !
:-)
Richard
Richard F.W. Holder 01279 842804 (POTS)
Bell House, Bell Lane, 01279 842804 (fax)
Widford, Ware, Herts, 07860 367423 (mobile)
SG12 8SH email : richard.holder@avnet.co.uk
Europa Classic Tri-gear : G-OWWW, High Cross
PA-28-181 : Piper Archer : G-JANA, EGSG (Stapleford)
Message 4
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
0.64 REPLY_TO_EMPTY Reply-To: is empty
--> Europa-List message posted by: "PATRICK TUNNEY" <sue.pat@ntlworld.com>
To all who know me or have heard of me please feel free to look at my website at www.europaxs.com.
>
> I would appreciate any comments good or bad.
>
> Thanks
>
> Pat Tunney
> XS Tri Kit 554
> Rotax 912s
>
> Approx 50% complete, i think!
----------------
Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/
Message 5
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Europa XS Tri Gear Kit FOR SALE |
--> Europa-List message posted by: rlaviation@aol.com
I have a Europa XS Tri Gear kit for sale.
The aircraft is 95% complete and ready for engine installation and electrical.
The aircraft was constructed by the owner at Flight Crafters in Tampa, Florida.
Please address all inquiries to: RLaviation@aol.com
or contact me at 813-690-1916.
Thank you,
Russell Lepre'
Message 6
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> Europa-List message posted by: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
In a message dated 12/3/2005 2:58:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,
europa-list-digest@matronics.com writes:
> Glenn, do be careful w/ your linkages...you're much more of an
> adventurist than I!
>
> ...but what do I know? Do da word "flutter" ring a bell?
>
I've flown several sailplanes with negative flap arrangements. The change in
glide is very noticable, as is the increase in speed. Most recently, I demo'd
a Pipistrel Sinus motorglider. When the flaps were put into the negative
position you could feel the airplane surge forward and the glide flatten out. Very
impressive.
I'm not sure how you'd acomplish this in a Europa, though. My flap drive tube
hits the back of the bagage bay when the flaps are up. So, with the current
flap hinge arrangement I don't see how you could get the flaps to cock negative
without altering the baggage bay significantly. To get the flaps to go
negative without changing the baggage bay would require some re-engineering of
the
flap hinges that is beyond my abilities.
If the flaps were locked into place when they were in the negative position I
wouldn't think flutter would be any more a problem than with any other
position. Then again, those are some pretty famous last words of some who have
preceeded me!
Interesting concept, though.
Regards,
John Lawton
Dunlap, TN
A-245 (Waiting on my spinner backplate to arrive so I can mount my prop,
spinner, cowls and go fly!)
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 7
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Woodcomp/Kremen prop |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jac van Heeswijk" <jac.vanheeswijk@hetnet.nl>
To all the good people, especially Rowland Carson, who have been helpful to try
to solve my problem of providing IVW (the dutch CAA) with a formal document
(the term "letter of no technical objection" has fallen), about my prop. Thank
you very cordially for your reactions with good advise and even copies of your
own documents.
But all these reactions were referring to a Woodcomp SR 2000 CS (constant speed)
prop. However I have a simple Woodcomp SR 200 (ground adjustable) 3 carbon blades
prop with the yellow tips. This propeller, in combination with a trigear
XS and a 912 S engine I want to have certified.
As a matter of fact all the paperwork on my plane has been done. Everything, the
plane itself included, is complete and ok. They only are demanding yet this
one last paper about the propeller/engine/airplane combination.
One reaction stated that certification of a 200 (ground adjustable type) prop will
be given on a 2000 (constand speed type) certification provided that the blades
are equal. Woodcomp has confirmed that this is the case, so this might be
a solution. Has somebody had any experience with this and can he confirm this?
Thanks in advance.
Jack van Heeswijk, nr 394, XS trigear. First flight planned for the spring of
2006
The Netherlands
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rowland Carson" <rowil@clara.net>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: woodcomp/kremen props [was: conventional gear]
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson <rowil@clara.net>
>
> At 2005-11-30 09:33 +0100 Michel Auvray wrote:
>
>>I use a SR2000 on my aircraft since 9 month the result is good
>
> Michel - thanks for the update - I have not heard any bad reports of
> the Kremen/Woodcomp props.
>
>>But the problem in France is French civil aviation administration
>>(DGAC) they recognize only the kit manufacturer not the PFA.
>>To day this propeller is not recognize by Europa because they sales
>>Airmaster propeller, and the company do not give a letter to the
>>French administration to use the woodcomp propeller, and to day we
>>are grounded with this propeller
>
> If I understand correctly - you're saying that your Europa is now
> grounded after operating OK with this prop for the previous 9 months.
> And if you cannot get some sort of approval document from the Europa
> factory, you must fit a different prop (Warp Drive, I assume) before
> you can fly again. If the DGAC allowed it to be fitted and used in
> the first place, why did they change their mind - was there an
> incident that prompted this grounding?
>
>>What solution do we have?
>
> I know that for various changes ("mods") to the Europa, PFA
> Engineering have asked the Europa company for a "letter of no
> technical objection" before approving the change. Perhaps this is
> also the case when fitting a prop different from the
> factory-recommended one. If so, Bryan Allsop would know as it seems
> he (or maybe William Mills? - more info is coming in daily!) was the
> first to fit a Kremen / Woodcomp prop to a 912S in UK. I am certain
> that David Joyce was the pioneer for the Kremen / 914 combination.
>
> IF such a letter was sent to the PFA by Europa, and IF Europa could
> be persuaded to send a similar letter (or just a photocopy?) to the
> right person at the DGAC, and IF that would be enough to satisfy the
> DGAC, maybe there is a solution!
>
> I suggest Bryan (912S), David (914) or Tim Houlihan (912) contact you
> off-list if they know of the existence of a "letter of no technical
> objection" referring to the Kremen / Woodcomp prop. The letter (if it
> exists) may be specific to the type of engine, so I think Tim might
> be your best contact as I believe you have a 912. If not
> engine-specific, probably David might be best.
>
> Hope this is of some help!
>
> regards
>
> Rowland
> --
> info!
>
>
Message 8
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> Europa-List message posted by: "GLENN CROWDER" <gcrowder2@hotmail.com>
Hey John!
That sounds very encouraging! Another advantage gained is that you're
reducing the
negative pitching moment of the wing, requiring less tail downforce thus
less trim drag.
So on the baggage bay interference, its not a matter of creating a small
recess area
in the bulkhead to allow the flap actuating tab to come forward a quarter
inch or so?
I only have the small baggage bay so I can't visualize the situation on the
TG.
Very nice progress on your bird John! Sounds like the new Sensenich prop
could be
awesome! Happy Holidays!
Glenn
>From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
>Reply-To: europa-list@matronics.com
>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Europa-List: Negative Flaps
>Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 10:26:56 EST
>
>--> Europa-List message posted by: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 12/3/2005 2:58:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>europa-list-digest@matronics.com writes:
>
> > Glenn, do be careful w/ your linkages...you're much more of an
> > adventurist than I!
> >
> > ...but what do I know? Do da word "flutter" ring a bell?
> >
>I've flown several sailplanes with negative flap arrangements. The change
>in
>glide is very noticable, as is the increase in speed. Most recently, I
>demo'd
>a Pipistrel Sinus motorglider. When the flaps were put into the negative
>position you could feel the airplane surge forward and the glide flatten
>out. Very
>impressive.
>
>I'm not sure how you'd acomplish this in a Europa, though. My flap drive
>tube
>hits the back of the bagage bay when the flaps are up. So, with the current
>flap hinge arrangement I don't see how you could get the flaps to cock
>negative
>without altering the baggage bay significantly. To get the flaps to go
>negative without changing the baggage bay would require some re-engineering
>of the
>flap hinges that is beyond my abilities.
>
>If the flaps were locked into place when they were in the negative position
>I
>wouldn't think flutter would be any more a problem than with any other
>position. Then again, those are some pretty famous last words of some who
>have
>preceeded me!
>
>Interesting concept, though.
>
>Regards,
>
>John Lawton
>Dunlap, TN
>A-245 (Waiting on my spinner backplate to arrive so I can mount my prop,
>spinner, cowls and go fly!)
>
>DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
Message 9
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Woodcomp/Kremen prop |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
Jac, You could ask Jiri Holoubek at Woodcomp to do a letter stating that the
blades are identical. regards, David Joyce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jac van Heeswijk" <jac.vanheeswijk@hetnet.nl>
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Woodcomp/Kremen prop
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jac van Heeswijk"
<jac.vanheeswijk@hetnet.nl>
>
> To all the good people, especially Rowland Carson, who have been helpful
to try to solve my problem of providing IVW (the dutch CAA) with a formal
document (the term "letter of no technical objection" has fallen), about
my prop. Thank you very cordially for your reactions with good advise and
even copies of your own documents.
>
> But all these reactions were referring to a Woodcomp SR 2000 CS (constant
speed) prop. However I have a simple Woodcomp SR 200 (ground adjustable) 3
carbon blades prop with the yellow tips. This propeller, in combination with
a trigear XS and a 912 S engine I want to have certified.
>
> As a matter of fact all the paperwork on my plane has been done.
Everything, the plane itself included, is complete and ok. They only are
demanding yet this one last paper about the propeller/engine/airplane
combination.
>
> One reaction stated that certification of a 200 (ground adjustable type)
prop will be given on a 2000 (constand speed type) certification provided
that the blades are equal. Woodcomp has confirmed that this is the case, so
this might be a solution. Has somebody had any experience with this and can
he confirm this?
>
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Jack van Heeswijk, nr 394, XS trigear. First flight planned for the
spring of 2006
> The Netherlands
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rowland Carson" <rowil@clara.net>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: woodcomp/kremen props [was: conventional gear]
>
>
> > --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson <rowil@clara.net>
> >
> > At 2005-11-30 09:33 +0100 Michel Auvray wrote:
> >
> >>I use a SR2000 on my aircraft since 9 month the result is good
> >
> > Michel - thanks for the update - I have not heard any bad reports of
> > the Kremen/Woodcomp props.
> >
> >>But the problem in France is French civil aviation administration
> >>(DGAC) they recognize only the kit manufacturer not the PFA.
> >>To day this propeller is not recognize by Europa because they sales
> >>Airmaster propeller, and the company do not give a letter to the
> >>French administration to use the woodcomp propeller, and to day we
> >>are grounded with this propeller
> >
> > If I understand correctly - you're saying that your Europa is now
> > grounded after operating OK with this prop for the previous 9 months.
> > And if you cannot get some sort of approval document from the Europa
> > factory, you must fit a different prop (Warp Drive, I assume) before
> > you can fly again. If the DGAC allowed it to be fitted and used in
> > the first place, why did they change their mind - was there an
> > incident that prompted this grounding?
> >
> >>What solution do we have?
> >
> > I know that for various changes ("mods") to the Europa, PFA
> > Engineering have asked the Europa company for a "letter of no
> > technical objection" before approving the change. Perhaps this is
> > also the case when fitting a prop different from the
> > factory-recommended one. If so, Bryan Allsop would know as it seems
> > he (or maybe William Mills? - more info is coming in daily!) was the
> > first to fit a Kremen / Woodcomp prop to a 912S in UK. I am certain
> > that David Joyce was the pioneer for the Kremen / 914 combination.
> >
> > IF such a letter was sent to the PFA by Europa, and IF Europa could
> > be persuaded to send a similar letter (or just a photocopy?) to the
> > right person at the DGAC, and IF that would be enough to satisfy the
> > DGAC, maybe there is a solution!
> >
> > I suggest Bryan (912S), David (914) or Tim Houlihan (912) contact you
> > off-list if they know of the existence of a "letter of no technical
> > objection" referring to the Kremen / Woodcomp prop. The letter (if it
> > exists) may be specific to the type of engine, so I think Tim might
> > be your best contact as I believe you have a 912. If not
> > engine-specific, probably David might be best.
> >
> > Hope this is of some help!
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Rowland
> > --
> > | Rowland Carson (retiring) Europa Club Membership Secretary - email for
> > info!
> > | Europa 435 G-ROWI (750 hours building) PFA #16532
> > | e-mail <memsec@europaclub.org.uk> website <www.europaclub.org.uk>
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> "Fantastic service... saves a lot of time for me... I only have to go to
one page."
> http://www.doctors.net.uk/login/?shorturlid=2854
> _______________________________________________________________________
>
>
---
Message 10
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | [ Fred R. Klein ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Fred R. Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
Lists: Europa-List
Subject: Alex Bowman's CAM 125 powered Europa
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/fklein@orcasonline.com.12.03.2005/index.html
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures@matronics.com
Message 11
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | black body radioation |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Thomas Scherer" <thomas@scherer.com>
Fellow builders,
I have just removed the radiators from my classic Europa. I spent many hours
combing them to bring back the original beauty.
Now - always striving to do something different - I was thinking of
repainting them white instead of blak. It would compliment the paint scheme
of the plane.
I was wondering whether white paint would massively affect the ability of
the radiators to dissipate heat. My gut feeling tells me that the bypassing
air molecule does not mind the color of the hot metal bit it gets heated up
by. But then again ... there was something in science class many years ago
about dark body radiation.
If it has an effect of less than 5 % I will go ahead and spray them white,
however if I lose 50 % of radiation-ability ... paint it black.
Yes, I did find hi-temp paint claiming to transmit heat well (instead of
insulating).
Please advise.
<Thomas, N81EU>
Message 12
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: black body radioation |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" <flyinggpa@comcast.net>
Thomas
I don't think the color maters inside the cowling. If the pain will conduct heat
well, do it.
That is my vote.
Cliff Shaw
1041 Euclid ave.
Edmonds, WA 98020
425 776 5555
http://www.europaowners.org/WileE
----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas Scherer
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 1:14 PM
Subject: Europa-List: black body radioation
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Thomas Scherer" <thomas@scherer.com>
Fellow builders,
I have just removed the radiators from my classic Europa. I spent many hours
combing them to bring back the original beauty.
Now - always striving to do something different - I was thinking of
repainting them white instead of blak. It would compliment the paint scheme
of the plane.
I was wondering whether white paint would massively affect the ability of
the radiators to dissipate heat. My gut feeling tells me that the bypassing
air molecule does not mind the color of the hot metal bit it gets heated up
by. But then again ... there was something in science class many years ago
about dark body radiation.
If it has an effect of less than 5 % I will go ahead and spray them white,
however if I lose 50 % of radiation-ability ... paint it black.
Yes, I did find hi-temp paint claiming to transmit heat well (instead of
insulating).
Please advise.
<Thomas, N81EU>
Message 13
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: black body radioation |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
> I have just removed the radiators from my classic
> Europa. I spent many hours combing them to bring back
> the original beauty.
>
> Now - always striving to do something different - I was
> thinking of repainting them white instead of blak. It
> would compliment the paint scheme of the plane.
>
> I was wondering whether white paint would massively
> affect the ability of the radiators to dissipate heat.
> My gut feeling tells me that the bypassing air molecule
> does not mind the color of the hot metal bit it gets
> heated up by. But then again ... there was something in
> science class many years ago about dark body radiation.
>
>
> If it has an effect of less than 5 % I will go ahead
> and spray them white, however if I lose 50 % of
> radiation-ability ... paint it black.
>
> Yes, I did find hi-temp paint claiming to transmit heat
> well (instead of insulating).
>
> Please advise.
>
I may be wrong but I think radiators on the plane work by
conduction not radiation ! And you are wrong that the air
goes past a "hot metal bit" if it has been painted. The
air goes past a PAINTED bit ! And so the paint may (or may
not) act as an insulator to the heat passing through from
the metal underneath to the air rushing past.
If you are black painted now then white painted is unlike
to make much difference (unless you paint white on top of
black therefore doublingthe "insulation" thickness !
White _reflects_ heat better than white which tends to
_absorb_ heat (and that is why the Europa is supposed to
be predominantly white painted).
So to sum up, if you remove all your black "transmit heat
well" paint and then replace with white "transmit heat
well" paint then not much will change.
On the other hand who will see the difference anyway :-) ?
IE - why bother !
Richard who likes to fly not fiddle with engineering stuff.
Message 14
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: black body radioation |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
> I was wondering whether white paint would massively affect
the ability of
> the radiators to dissipate heat. My gut feeling tells me
that the bypassing
> air molecule does not mind the color of the hot metal bit
it gets heated up
> by. But then again ... there was something in science
class many years ago
> about dark body radiation.
> ....
> Please advise.
>
> <Thomas, N81EU>
>
You want black, not white. Quantum theory, Kichoff's laws,
good absorbers (black) are good radiators (shedding heat of
the hot fluid). But with tradeoff as your radiators will be
absorbs the sun's heat in a given flight condition.
But as a practical matter, you'd have to dip them in paint,
I don't think we want to do that. So anything shot on just
the front shouldn't matter. Black will disguise the fact of
radiators there viewed from a distance. White would look
odd to me on such a device. Gold might look like it was
anodized the way a popular aircraft part comes. Silver
metallic phony; we homebuilders use too much of that.
Office beige? Whorehouse lavender? :-)
Reg,
Fred F.
Message 15
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | black body radioation |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
> I was wondering whether white paint would massively affect the ability
of
the radiators to dissipate heat.
Thomas,
I probably should keep my mouth shut because I really don't know the
answer to your question BUT . . . as an observation . . . . every
radiator I have ever seen has been painted matt black and I can't help
thinking there must be a reason for this . . . . AND . . . after all,
they ARE called RADIATORS not CONDUCTORS !!!
There is one way to find out though, suck it and see
Cheers
Kingsley
Do not archive
Message 16
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: black body radioation |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
I beg to differ.
Black is far more absorptive than white. But the emissivity is little
different between the two colours; in other words, if heat is being LOST by
radiation, then black is only marginally more efficient than white. Of
course "radiators" transfer heat mostly by conduction, which is not affected
by colour.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: black body radioation
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
>
>> I was wondering whether white paint would massively affect
> the ability of
>> the radiators to dissipate heat. My gut feeling tells me
> that the bypassing
>> air molecule does not mind the color of the hot metal bit
> it gets heated up
>> by. But then again ... there was something in science
> class many years ago
>> about dark body radiation.
>> ....
>> Please advise.
>>
>> <Thomas, N81EU>
>>
>
> You want black, not white. Quantum theory, Kichoff's laws,
> good absorbers (black) are good radiators (shedding heat of
> the hot fluid). But with tradeoff as your radiators will be
> absorbs the sun's heat in a given flight condition.
>
> But as a practical matter, you'd have to dip them in paint,
> I don't think we want to do that. So anything shot on just
> the front shouldn't matter. Black will disguise the fact of
> radiators there viewed from a distance. White would look
> odd to me on such a device. Gold might look like it was
> anodized the way a popular aircraft part comes. Silver
> metallic phony; we homebuilders use too much of that.
> Office beige? Whorehouse lavender? :-)
>
> Reg,
> Fred F.
>
>
>
Message 17
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | black body radioation |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Rob Housman" <robh@hyperion-ef.us>
Time to clarify a bit of heat transfer theory for you non-engineers.
While it is certainly true that a "black" surface is a better emitter than
any other "color," at the temperatures that we are working with in cooling
an engine there is negligible heat transfer by radiation in this system.
Calling the thing a radiator is a misnomer. The engineering term for such a
device is "heat exchanger" or "air-to-liquid heat exchanger."
Heat transfer in this system is dependent (among other things which we
should consider unchanged) on the heat transfer coefficients, one on the
liquid side and the other on the air side. The liquid side gets less
efficient as scale builds on the interior - this scale can be from deposits
left by the liquid but it is mostly from corrosion of the "radiator"
material (whether that be copper or aluminum). The air side usually gets
less efficient because of things like bugs and other debris.
Paint on the heat transfer surfaces will definitely impair efficiency by
reducing the amount of air flowing through the "radiator" (the thickness of
the paint decreases the cross section available for air flow), and also by
adding thickness through which heat transfers by conduction from the liquid
side to the air side.
Ergo, it is not a good idea to paint the fins.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
Airframe complete
Irvine, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Duncan McFadyean
Subject: Re: Europa-List: black body radioation
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean"
<ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
I beg to differ.
Black is far more absorptive than white. But the emissivity is little
different between the two colours; in other words, if heat is being LOST by
radiation, then black is only marginally more efficient than white. Of
course "radiators" transfer heat mostly by conduction, which is not affected
by colour.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: black body radioation
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
>
>> I was wondering whether white paint would massively affect
> the ability of
>> the radiators to dissipate heat. My gut feeling tells me
> that the bypassing
>> air molecule does not mind the color of the hot metal bit
> it gets heated up
>> by. But then again ... there was something in science
> class many years ago
>> about dark body radiation.
>> ....
>> Please advise.
>>
>> <Thomas, N81EU>
>>
>
> You want black, not white. Quantum theory, Kichoff's laws,
> good absorbers (black) are good radiators (shedding heat of
> the hot fluid). But with tradeoff as your radiators will be
> absorbs the sun's heat in a given flight condition.
>
> But as a practical matter, you'd have to dip them in paint,
> I don't think we want to do that. So anything shot on just
> the front shouldn't matter. Black will disguise the fact of
> radiators there viewed from a distance. White would look
> odd to me on such a device. Gold might look like it was
> anodized the way a popular aircraft part comes. Silver
> metallic phony; we homebuilders use too much of that.
> Office beige? Whorehouse lavender? :-)
>
> Reg,
> Fred F.
>
>
Message 18
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Future Europa Powerplant |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "GLENN CROWDER" <gcrowder2@hotmail.com>
Heres another one of those pie in the sky type future
powerplants that may actually happen. Unfortunately, its
got one big problem - it is too light! Extremely interesting
diesel rotary fires 24 times each revolution. Not a Wankel.
No pistons, cylinders, connecting rods, or valves. Received
NASA funding in 1999 thru Phase 1 development but was a
victim of budget cuts.
Its still being actively developed initially for military UAV
application. They have a working 42 hp proto. The 150 hp
version weighs only 55 lbs bare without gearbox, cooling
system or accessories. They say its so quiet it doesn't need
a muffler. They've had some problems with sealing (kind of
like the problems with the original Mazda wankel) but seem
to be getting those worked out. The 150 hp version is
probably 5 years away minimum so we have plenty of time
to stretch our cowlings.
A very innovative 2 place sport aircraft has been developed
(but not built) around the 150 hp version. This was a joint
project between Loughborough Univ (UK) and Virginia Tech
(US and was the NASA SATS Contest winner in 2002. They
used the Europa as one of the performance benchmarks and
the a/c has a very similiar performance envelope although looks
quite different. It is a SSTOL 2 place tandem trailerable design
with about the same cruise and top speed as the Europa.
They have an fascinating and (mostly) not too technical
downloadable report at this site:
http://www.aoe.vt.edu/design/ikelos/
Ikelos Hope Page
There is a 11 page technical article on the engine
in Appendix C. This is a most interesting and
comprehensive report (226 pgs!) on a/c design
and all the factors and compromises that go into
a new machine. Everything you wanted to know
about Longitudinal Stability and Control Derivatives
but were afraid to ask! I must have played hooky
the day we covered this stuff in high school
physics class!
The Canadian company developing the engine
is at this site:
http://www.regtech.com/
Reg/Regi Technologies Inc.
Glenn
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|