---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 12/07/05: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:22 AM - Re: Solid Throttle cable centre (BEBERRY@aol.com) 2. 01:32 AM - Re: Fuel sender etc. (G-IANI) 3. 01:43 AM - Re: DOTH Wednesday - Definate! (Richard Holder) 4. 01:44 AM - Re: Europa-List Digest: 19 Msgs - 12/06/05 (Graham Singleton) 5. 05:02 AM - Re: DOTH Wednesday - Definate! (R.C.Harrison) 6. 07:06 AM - Fuel Gauges (KARL HEINDL) 7. 09:25 AM - Re: Fuel Gauges (G-IANI) 8. 09:35 AM - Re: DOTH Wednesday - Definate! (ivor.phillips) 9. 09:44 AM - Re: Solid Throttle cable centre (Pete Lawless) 10. 10:09 AM - Re: Fuel sender etc. (owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com) 11. 10:14 AM - Re: DOTH Wednesday - Definate! (Alan Burrows) 12. 10:34 AM - Re: Fuel sender etc. (Peter Rees) 13. 11:38 AM - Re: Fuel sender etc. (KARL HEINDL) 14. 12:40 PM - Re: Fuel Gauges (R.C.Harrison) 15. 12:44 PM - Re: DOTH Wednesday - Definate! (Bryan Allsop) 16. 12:52 PM - Re: DOTH Wednesday - Definate! (Bryan Allsop) 17. 01:49 PM - Re: Fuel Gauges (Tony Krzyzewski) 18. 02:03 PM - Re: Fuel sender etc. (Tony Krzyzewski) 19. 03:59 PM - Re: Fuel sender etc. (JR(Bob) Gowing) 20. 05:30 PM - Re: Fuel Gauges (Paul McAllister) 21. 07:28 PM - solid throttle cables (Fergus Kyle) 22. 07:46 PM - Re: Fuel sender etc. (Tony Krzyzewski) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:22:18 AM PST US From: BEBERRY@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Solid Throttle cable centre --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com Pete, I am using the whole cable which in cludes a plastic inner, inside the metal coiled outer. I also put in some proper cable lubrication, of which several types are available but they are all basically like WD40 with added silicone. Patrick ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:32:02 AM PST US From: "G-IANI" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel sender etc. --> Europa-List message posted by: "G-IANI" Karl As I think you know (if you can remember that far back) I to set out to use the Averlec gauge. I have the oval opening which is great for tank access. In the end I fitted the Europa gauge (in the headrest) which seems to do a good job. This feeds my Grand Rapids EIS which displays the information. Yes it is an 8 step device so you need to take that into account when reading it. Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:43:10 AM PST US From: Richard Holder Subject: Re: Europa-List: DOTH Wednesday - Definate! --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder Bryan Allsop wrote: > William Mills and I have decided that the UK weather slot tomorrow is too good to miss. The venue will be chosen from Pilot Freebies when we have chance to look at it. We will advise this evening.If you want to drop your hat with us please let us know because it may influence that choice. > > Sorry to those who cant make tomorrow, but we have to go with the weather. > > Cheers. > > Bryan Allsop > > Nothing posted - is there a DOTH ? Richard Holder ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:44:14 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 19 Msgs - 12/06/05 --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel sender etc. --> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" Karl you won't find a capacitive sender that works with all fuels because the variation is in the fuel, not the sender. imho the simplest most practical way to retrofit fuel contents measurement is with Tony K's pressure transducer, which measures the hydrostatic fuel head and converts that to contents. The other accurate way is to use the float type sender the factory sell, (also sold by Gerry Davis, Lyndhurst Touchdown Services /Compared to capacitance type gauges our units are more reliable. Capacitance gauges are prone to failure if the sender comes into contact with even small amounts of water. Capacitance gauges may misread by 10% or even more depending on what fuel is used. Mogas and Avgas have different qualities and unleaded fuels vary depending on season. Our gauges are unaffected by this type of variation. / /*How do they work?* The senders are made with a series (often eight) reed switches set inside a stainless steel tube. A magnetic float sweeps past the switches changing the setting. Each switch operates a resistor and the resistance of the sender is changed depending on the fuel level. Our aircraft specific senders are calibrated to reflect the non-linearity of the fuel tank. Although the senders have only eight switches the resolution is more than adequate. Better to have an accurate gauge with eighth resolution that an inaccurate gauge which at best tells you fuel content to within 10%./ Bob and All, I installed the super expensive Avelec system and find it next to useless. So I have the elliptic large opening between the headrests, with a half inch probe positioned at an angle going to the bottom of the port tank position. Can anyone tell me which fuel sender I could use to replace this, and which would give me a more or less accurate reading of fuel content regardless of which brand of fuel I use ? Karl ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:54 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: DOTH Wednesday - Definate! --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! Richard I like you took Bryan to mean that he would revert with the destination. However having spoken to him he didn't revert because no one responded ! Then this morning William is fog bound and Bryans field is closed because of the ground being sodden and he didn't know 'till he got there! So between us all we have wasted a damn fine day ! Still it didn't cost any fuel did it ? Regards and Merry Christmas to all. Bob H G-PTAG Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Holder Subject: Re: Europa-List: DOTH Wednesday - Definate! --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder Bryan Allsop wrote: > William Mills and I have decided that the UK weather slot tomorrow is too good to miss. The venue will be chosen from Pilot Freebies when we have chance to look at it. We will advise this evening.If you want to drop your hat with us please let us know because it may influence that choice. > > Sorry to those who cant make tomorrow, but we have to go with the weather. > > Cheers. > > Bryan Allsop > > Nothing posted - is there a DOTH ? Richard Holder ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:50 AM PST US From: "KARL HEINDL" Subject: Europa-List: Fuel Gauges --> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" Many thanks Ian and Graham. I am lookng for a simple solution, and wouldn't even want to consider making another tank opening. I already have an opening big enough to put my arm in. I assume that the float type sensor works only with a vertical probe ? Or could it work with an angled probe like the Avelec ? Maybe Tony K's pressure transducer is the way to go, but how does it compensate for different fuel weights ? The Avelec would have been fine if it had been designed properly, i.e. with front controls where I can dial in the fuel quantity (read off the sight gauge) and/or a simple switch telling it when the tank is full. The software could then figure out all intermediate readings, and it would work for any type of fuel mix. Perhaps the best way in my case is to install a fuel flow meter. Again, I am assuming that those gadgets can be reset with fuel quantity in the tank every time you refuel. Karl ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:25:56 AM PST US From: "G-IANI" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel Gauges --> Europa-List message posted by: "G-IANI" Karl I have the two flow meters (Flowscan) and these also feed the EIS. Pre flight you manually set the fuel quantity and it calculates flow, quantity remaining and estimated flight time remaining. The Europa gauge value is also displayed so you can compare the two. The disadvantage is the cost of the flowscan senders. Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:35:53 AM PST US From: "ivor.phillips" Subject: Re: Europa-List: DOTH Wednesday - Definate! --> Europa-List message posted by: "ivor.phillips" No we all Didnt!! Had a great flight out of Rochester today, weather couldnt have been better, So between us all we have wasted a damn fine day ! Still it didn't cost any fuel did it ? Regards and Merry Christmas to all. Ivor Phillips do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:44:16 AM PST US From: "Pete Lawless" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Solid Throttle cable centre --> Europa-List message posted by: "Pete Lawless" Patrick Thanks for that. I have already replaced one cable due to a kink and the other one is showing signs. I think a visit to the mc shop is called for and have some spares to hand. Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BEBERRY@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Solid Throttle cable centre --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com Pete, I am using the whole cable which in cludes a plastic inner, inside the metal coiled outer. I also put in some proper cable lubrication, of which several types are available but they are all basically like WD40 with added silicone. Patrick -- 02/12/2005 -- 02/12/2005 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:07 AM PST US From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel sender etc. --> Europa-List message posted by: Hi all Having fitted the capacitance fuel transmitter, I intend to calibrate the indicator for both avgas and mogas - and make up a placard next to the indicator which would give me exact readings for both. Then a possible problem would arrise when mixing fuel - say 50 - 50 - or 75 - 25. Are there others who have done it this way? Cheers Hans. hansjd@online.no ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:28 AM PST US From: "Alan Burrows" Subject: RE: Europa-List: DOTH Wednesday - Definate! --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows" Can you guys change the subject...its been blowing a gale and raining like &@%$** here on the Isle of Man all day. In fact I think I may just send some of this weather over to you, just so you don't feel left out. After all this list is all about sharing experiences isn't it :-) Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ivor.phillips Subject: Re: Europa-List: DOTH Wednesday - Definate! --> Europa-List message posted by: "ivor.phillips" --> No we all Didnt!! Had a great flight out of Rochester today, weather couldnt have been better, So between us all we have wasted a damn fine day ! Still it didn't cost any fuel did it ? Regards and Merry Christmas to all. Ivor Phillips do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:33 AM PST US From: "Peter Rees" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel sender etc. --> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees" If you have the avalec unit with the analogue gauge, the reading it gives with Mogas (or certainly our one) is complete nonsense - you won't be able to just multiply it by a factor to get the right answer. Ours almost always read 3/4 full regardless of the true fuel level when running on Mogas. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel sender etc. > --> Europa-List message posted by: > > Hi all > > Having fitted the capacitance fuel transmitter, I intend to calibrate the > indicator for both avgas and mogas - and make up a placard next to the > indicator which would give me exact readings for both. > Then a possible problem would arrise when mixing fuel - say 50 - 50 - or > 75 - 25. > > Are there others who have done it this way? > > Cheers > Hans. hansjd@online.no > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:38:54 AM PST US From: "KARL HEINDL" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel sender etc. --> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" Peter, I don't seem to have that problem. I calibrated my unit to the local Shell mogas, and I get accurate readings. But when I go touring I can pretty well ignore the gauge, because any fuel mix is possible: different brands of mogas, avgas, ethanol gas. When I fly in the US I always make a point of using mogas also by using the airport courtesy car and driving to the nearest gas station. I like my latest idea of installing a float probe in the same opening as the Avelec, but don't know yet how to modify the probe for the shorter distance to the bottom hump. To find out remaining flight time when 'empty' I would just make some test flights at different rpm's, letting the port side run dry, and make a note of elapsed time. Karl >From: "Peter Rees" >Reply-To: europa-list@matronics.com >To: >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel sender etc. >Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 18:32:42 -0000 > >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees" > >If you have the avalec unit with the analogue gauge, the reading it gives >with Mogas (or certainly our one) is complete nonsense - you won't be able >to just multiply it by a factor to get the right answer. Ours almost always >read 3/4 full regardless of the true fuel level when running on Mogas. > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel sender etc. > > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: > > > > Hi all > > > > Having fitted the capacitance fuel transmitter, I intend to calibrate >the > > indicator for both avgas and mogas - and make up a placard next to the > > indicator which would give me exact readings for both. > > Then a possible problem would arrise when mixing fuel - say 50 - 50 - or > > 75 - 25. > > > > Are there others who have done it this way? > > > > Cheers > > Hans. hansjd@online.no > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:40:33 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel Gauges --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! Karl/Hans/all Concerning the differing specific gravity of Mogas and Avgas I have my capacitance gauge calibrated to always err on the safe side, I've forgotten which is the highest/lowest reading now but it shows in one case less in than there really is, so there is always a bit extra "up your sleeve" so to speak. I must confess I didn't plan it that way but I had a stroke of luck for it to be calibrated that way. (Thinking about it that means that I originally calibrated with Mogas that's all I would have had in the Garage, so Avgas must be of less specific gravity and will have more in the tank than the Mogas calibration.) Let's face it you could have a mixture in and finish up with completely irrelevant readings. I don't countenance flying so near the line anyway ! I have two scales though one for main tank only and one for the combined main and Long Range tank together. Regards Bob HARRISON G-PTAG Do not archive. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KARL HEINDL Subject: Europa-List: Fuel Gauges --> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" Many thanks Ian and Graham. I am lookng for a simple solution, and wouldn't even want to consider making another tank opening. I already have an opening big enough to put my arm in. I assume that the float type sensor works only with a vertical probe ? Or could it work with an angled probe like the Avelec ? Maybe Tony K's pressure transducer is the way to go, but how does it compensate for different fuel weights ? The Avelec would have been fine if it had been designed properly, i.e. with front controls where I can dial in the fuel quantity (read off the sight gauge) and/or a simple switch telling it when the tank is full. The software could then figure out all intermediate readings, and it would work for any type of fuel mix. Perhaps the best way in my case is to install a fuel flow meter. Again, I am assuming that those gadgets can be reset with fuel quantity in the tank every time you refuel. Karl ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:44:08 PM PST US From: "Bryan Allsop" Subject: Re: Europa-List: DOTH Wednesday - Definate! --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bryan Allsop" Dont worry Alan, Today saw William fogged in, me unable to get out of a waterlogged field, and Bob Harrison contemplating his anus in Lincolnshire. So, we decided to go nowhere. You can keep your weather. We have got our own! Have a nice day, - tomorrow. Cheers Bryan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Burrows" Subject: RE: Europa-List: DOTH Wednesday - Definate! > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows" > > > Can you guys change the subject...its been blowing a gale and raining > like &@%$** here on the Isle of Man all day. In fact I think I may just > send some of this weather over to you, just so you don't feel left out. > After all this list is all about sharing experiences isn't it :-) > > Alan > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > ivor.phillips > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: DOTH Wednesday - Definate! > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "ivor.phillips" > --> > > No we all Didnt!! Had a great flight out of Rochester today, weather > couldnt > have been better, > > > So between us all we have wasted a damn fine day ! > Still it didn't cost any fuel did it ? > > Regards and Merry Christmas to all. > Ivor Phillips > > do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:38 PM PST US From: "Bryan Allsop" Subject: Re: Europa-List: DOTH Wednesday - Definate! --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bryan Allsop" Sorry about that Richard, but no one contacted me, so I assumed that William and I were the only ones. Cheers Bryan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Holder" Subject: Re: Europa-List: DOTH Wednesday - Definate! > --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder > > Bryan Allsop wrote: >> William Mills and I have decided that the UK weather slot tomorrow is too >> good to miss. The venue will be chosen from Pilot Freebies when we have >> chance to look at it. We will advise this evening.If you want to drop >> your hat with us please let us know because it may influence that choice. >> >> Sorry to those who cant make tomorrow, but we have to go with the >> weather. >> >> Cheers. >> >> Bryan Allsop >> > >> > Nothing posted - is there a DOTH ? > > Richard Holder > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:28 PM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel Gauges From: "Tony Krzyzewski" Received-SPF: none --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony Krzyzewski" >> Maybe Tony K's pressure transducer is the way to go, but how does it compensate for different fuel weights ? It doesn't! The sensor weighs the pressure head of fluid compared to ambient pressure and then does a lookup in a self calibrated lookup table to determine how much fuel you have in the tank. I've sold around 30 chip sets so far and they are being used to measure fluid levels in aircraft, hovercraft, water tanks and rivers. Oh, and my cat's water container where the early prototype can be found. Regards Tony ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:04 PM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel sender etc. From: "Tony Krzyzewski" Received-SPF: none --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony Krzyzewski" Ps For those using my pressure sensor chip set there is a new low cost prototyping board available for USD10 + p&p http://www.kiwacan.co.nz/products/kpic/kpic-2840p.shtml This board has a lot of the processor, timing and serial interface related circuit board already laid out which will result in an easier build of the pressure sensor. I have to build up another unit for myself for a domestic water tank and I'll be using this board to build up the circuit. Once I have done this I'll add some as built photos to the existing documentation which can still be found at www.kaon.co.nz/europa/fuelgaugev3.pdf Regards Tony ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:59:43 PM PST US From: "JR(Bob) Gowing" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fuel sender etc. --> Europa-List message posted by: "JR(Bob) Gowing" Question to Tony K is - Is a hole needed to be cut into the tank or is a sensor dropped into the main tank through the outlet so that only a couple of wires come out? Perhaps much to simple a set up to be possible? JR (Bob) Gowing UK kit 327 in Oz > For those using my pressure sensor chip set there is a new low cost > prototyping board available for USD10 + p&p > > http://www.kiwacan.co.nz/products/kpic/kpic-2840p.shtml > > This board has a lot of the processor, timing and serial interface > related circuit board already laid out which will result in an easier > build of the pressure sensor. I have to build up another unit for myself > for a domestic water tank and I'll be using this board to build up the > circuit. Once I have done this I'll add some as built photos to the > existing documentation which can still be found at > www.kaon.co.nz/europa/fuelgaugev3.pdf > > Regards > > Tony > > > -- > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:30:10 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel Gauges --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Guys, I have to say, as far as installation goes, Tony's system is just too easy. You get the choice of 10 segment bar display, or if you wish an analogue system. The micro comes preloaded with data for the Europa tank, and you can calibrate it yourself with a laptop. I haven't put a sender in my tank, but gee, I would think that this has to be easier. Paul ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:28:40 PM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Europa-List: solid throttle cables --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" Cheers, Thanks to all who answered my question regarding installing solid wire for twisted centres in the throttle cables. Unfortunately (as mentioned earlier) mine kinked inside the throttle box almost immediately so the choice is not mine any more. However, it seems that the substitution of the centre line only will ease the need to replace the whole original - since 6mm threads at the engine end would require ordering from a faraway continent. This brings up the fabricating of the throttle lever end. The original cables had ready-made ends which straddled the -3 bolt axis. How should I fashion a similar end in 0.54 spring steel wire? Would a double coil with a double turn on the incoming portion do it? how have others achieved this? Lord, I love this list............ Ferg ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:04 PM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel sender etc. From: "Tony Krzyzewski" Received-SPF: none --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony Krzyzewski" >> Question to Tony K is - >>Is a hole needed to be cut into the tank or is a sensor dropped into the main tank through the outlet so that only a couple of wires come out? No, there is no incursion into the tank as the sensor sits in the sight gauge line. Tony