---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 12/15/05: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:11 AM - Fw: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) (William Mills) 2. 03:45 AM - Re: Fw: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) (BEBERRY@AOL.COM) 3. 05:56 AM - Re: Fw: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) (Mike Gregory) 4. 07:02 AM - Re: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) (Gerry Holland) 5. 07:02 AM - FW: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) (Gerry Holland) 6. 07:17 AM - Bob Borger especially (Fergus Kyle) 7. 09:14 AM - Re: Bob Borger especially (josok) 8. 09:16 AM - Re: Bob Borger especially (Richard Holder) 9. 09:17 AM - Re: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) (josok) 10. 09:44 AM - NSI CAP 140 prop issue (GLENN CROWDER) 11. 10:53 AM - Re: Bob Borger especially (Robert Borger) 12. 12:27 PM - Re: Bob Borger especially () 13. 01:10 PM - Re: Bob Borger especially (Fergus Kyle) 14. 02:45 PM - Re: Re: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) (Jim Brown) 15. 02:47 PM - Re: Re: Bob Borger especially (ivor.phillips) 16. 04:18 PM - Re: Re: Bob Borger especially (R.C.Harrison) 17. 04:26 PM - Re: Re: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) (R.C.Harrison) 18. 05:26 PM - Re: Fw: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) (Bbryanallsop@wmconnect.com) 19. 10:46 PM - Re: Fw: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) (William Mills) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:11:11 AM PST US From: "William Mills" Subject: Europa-List: Fw: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Burton" Subject: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) > > Hi William, > > Please forward this email to the Europa mailing list for me. > > Here's a story that is relevant to everyone who has a constant speed > prop fitted (irrespective of prop manufacture). Sorry it's so long but > it's worth reading. > > Yesterday, I went flying in G-NEAT which is fitted with an Arplast > PV50 electric VP prop and a Smart Avionics CS controller. Before > starting, I manually adjusted the prop pitch to be fully fine to make > engine starting as easy as possible. Start up, warm up, taxy, engine > checks, everything's OK, let's go flying. > > Accelerate, liftoff, flying. At about 50' I realise that something's > wrong, the revs are higher than normal and in no time at all we're off > to red line city. For a brief moment I considered landing ahead on the > rapidly shortening runway but with little wind and near gross weight > that really wasn't a sensible option so I reduced the throttle and > once I was satisfied that I could actually stay in the air without > destroying the engine, I flew a very low and slow circuit and arrived > back on the ground much relieved. Full marks to my passenger (another > pilot) who kept quiet and let me concentrate on the flying. > > So what went wrong? No doubt you have guessed. The prop had stuck in > the fully fine pitch position. Subsequent investigation found that a > small wire in the PV50 hub had fractured where it was soldered to the > diodes/switches. So black mark to Arplast for not providing any form > of strain relief on the wire joint (pity their electrics are not as > good as their blade aerodynamics). > > Another factor (and this one is my fault) is that the fine pitch limit > of the propeller was set too fine because at climb speed the red line > was being reached at less than full throttle. With a CS propeller you > can get away with this because even though you can start the take off > run with the propeller too fine for flight, the CS controller will > coarsen the pitch as you accelerate and by the time you are flying the > pitch will be OK. > > So the message here is that if you have a CS prop (of any type) you > really should make sure that the mechanical fine pitch limit is set to > such a position that if the prop remained fully fine you could still > use full throttle at the normal climb speed. I believe this is > actually a requirement (JAR/PFA?) but I wonder how many of us have > made sure that we are compliant. I can see the sense in it > now! Remember, no matter what prop you have fitted, it could fail at > any time (bad wiring, brushes worn, motor shagged, controller toasted, > finger trouble, ...) > > So today, I adjusted the position of the fine pitch limit switch on my > PV50 to make it coarser. Flight testing showed that it could have been > a little bit coarser still but the microswitch was at its limit of > travel so it will have to do for now. > > One last thing, as you probably all know, I manufacture avionics and > one of my products is a talking ASI (the SmartASS). I always use it > for take off because it makes it very easy to maintain Vy while > looking out the window. During my thrilling circuit yesterday, it > helped greatly to have the airspeed called out every few seconds > because it meant I could concentrate on flying the aircraft, > navigating around the circuit and keeping the revs under control. My > passenger was so impressed that after landing he immediately said he > would buy one! That's great, but I'm not going to do any more demo > flights like that again, even if it does guarantee a sale! > > Cheers, > > Mark > > > -- > 09/12/2005 > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:45:25 AM PST US From: BEBERRY@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fw: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com Here's a story that is relevant to everyone who has a constant speed > prop fitted (irrespective of prop manufacture). Sorry it's so long but > it's worth reading. > > Yesterday, I went flying in G-NEAT which is fitted with an Arplast > PV50 electric VP prop and a Smart Avionics CS controller. Hi Mark - read your prop story with some interest. I have just fitted an Arplast prop but not yet flown it. I have set the microswitch to give a min pitch of 20 degrees. Is this about right for the Europa or have you other ideas? Best wishes. Patrick ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:56:01 AM PST US From: "Mike Gregory" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fw: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Gregory" I'm very grateful to Mark and William for helping to publicise the consequences of failure of a variable pitch control. I asked Francis Donaldson of the PFA for advice on the settings for VP props, and he immediately sent me a copy of the instructions he had issued last year in connection with a Permit to Test. In this case it was for a Europa/Rotax/Kremen 2000 set up, but the principles would apply generally. I have extracted the following, including some general points regarding installation, cooling and balancing which may be helpful as guidance to others who may not yet have reached the testing stage: For this engine/prop installation the stops must be set so that: a. With the propeller in fully fine, with full throttle set the engine should not overspeed (ie not exceed 5800) when 'static' on the ground or when climbing out at the normal climb speed for best angle of climb. (JAR-VLA 33 (c)(i) refers). We recommend it is set up so that it cannot exceed 5800 rpm, at full throttle, at a climb speed less than 80 kts. b. With the propeller pitch in fully coarse, during a glide at Vne with throttle closed (provided this has no detrimental effect on the engine) the engine must not exceed 110% of the maximum permitted continuous speed, ie 1.1 x 5500 = 6050 rpm (JAR-VLA 33 (c)(II) refers). c. With the propeller pitch fully coarse, the aeroplane must demonstrate an ability to safely go-around, flaps and undercarriage down, and provide a positive rate of climb,(300 ft/min) with the aeroplane at max gross weight, under ISA conditions. This latter is a PFA-imposed requirement which is in recognition of the fact that this VP propeller has a relatively crude pitch changing control system in which the reliability of the pitch change system has yet to be satisfactorily proven in service. The propeller pitch control must be clearly identified as to function and sense, and clearly distinguished from the other cockpit controls to avoid any possibility of confusion. Do not put it directly alongside the pitch trim switch for example. JAR-VLA 781 requires that propeller controls should be orientated such that forward motion acts to increase engine rpm ie to reduce propeller pitch. Ideally the switch should be characteristically different in shape to the switches for other equipment. You will need to check not only that the propeller gives satisfactory climb and cruise performance but also that the engine cooling is not adversely effected. The cooling may be influenced due to the load applied to the engine by the prop being different. The VP prop allows the engine to produce more power, in doing so it creates more waste heat. The cooling may also be affected by the airflow around the propeller hub and spinner, particularly if the cooling air intakes are in this area. Removal of a spinner can upset the airflow, as can a propeller with a large hub or round shank blade roots which can effectively block the engine cooling inlet airflow. You must also check for signs of vibration or buffetting throughout the rpm range and in all phases of ground running as well as in flight. This may may result if the natural frequency of vibration of the engine on its mount rubbers, or the tail surfaces or fuselage, or of the engine/gearbox coupling should happen to couple in an unfortunate way with the resonant frequency of the propeller blades in bending, or the aerodynamic buffet coming from the slipstream. It may also indicate that the propeller (or possibly the spinner) is out of track or out of balance. Good results have been reported from dynamically balancing propellers on Europas, at least one balancing company advertises in 'Popular Flying'. Fly safely Mike Europa Club Safety Officer safety@europaclub.org.uk ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:07 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) From: Gerry Holland --> Europa-List message posted by: Gerry Holland > So all said, I do not know what Mark is doing flying an A/C in an un > airworthy state. Taking all into account I think he would do well to keep > his mouth shut and get his prop fixed and signed for properly. Some real encouragement to share bad experiences that could make us all safety aware! Thank god burning at the stake has been abandoned...physically if not verbally at least. Best wishes to all at this obviously charitable time! BTW. Mark... Thank you for pointing out this occurrence. Gerry Holland Still learning every day and thankful to those who share their learning too! ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:08 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: FW: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) From: Gerry Holland --> Europa-List message posted by: Gerry Holland As this subject is being shared with all and sundry. Here is another angle from another Europa Club Member. Not me I hasten to add! and not conducive either to sharing mistakes or errors. Gerry Holland > I have to say that the PFA are quite clear on this subject and do and always > have very firmly insisted on the fine pitch stop being set such that engine > max RPM cannot be exceeded up to climb speed even with the throttle wide > open. > > If (as should have been the case) Mark obtained mod permission to fit this > C/S prop, then he would have been informed by Francis and his inspector > would have had to sign to this effect. There are other requirements also, > including ability to achieve 300 ft/min climb after and aborted landing with > the prop in full coarse. > > So all said, I do not know what Mark is doing flying an A/C in an un > airworthy state. Taking all into account I think he would do well to keep > his mouth shut and get his prop fixed and signed for properly. > PS I am sure Francis will now be checking up on whoever fitted the prop! ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:30 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Europa-List: Bob Borger especially --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" ......but not exclusively........... Bob, Thank you again for offering photos to chase down the brake line connector. HOWEVER, there I am, lying on my back under the beast, cutting the safety wire to free up the brake slave cylinder, cursing my luck, skinning my knuckles and punctruing bits of this and that with the remnants of safety wire.............only to loosen the brake cylinder to permit rotating of the ell connector (so's I can hook up the brake line). Are you with me? All that done and I start screwing in the ell. Your photo 133 of 187 in your album shows a perfect attachment. MINE tightens the ell into the cylinder body exactly 180 degrees out of whack. Can I gronch the little B******r around to the forward position thus risking a snapped ell ( and the nearest next one in UK)? ....or can I fashion a washer from the extra nut which came with the ell so as to unscrew 180 degres and tighten up the nut? basically how did you (or any other reader!) tighten up the brakeline ell so that it points forward to accept the brakeline? Kindest regards to all on board for the Christmas season. Ferg A064 lying here waiting, waiting................ I think the furnace just quit. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:14:00 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: RE: Bob Borger especially From: "josok" 0.64 REPLY_TO_EMPTY Reply-To: is empty --> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" Hi Ferg, What i did was use some Locktite 577, a thread sealant suitable for gas, oil and water. This hardens in 24 hrs. Turned it by hand to almost the right position, and carefully with some pliers to do the last. System is filled and does not leak a drop. (Now waiting until somebody tells me it is not suitable for brake fluid :-) Kind regards, Jos Okhuijsen ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:16:50 AM PST US From: Richard Holder Subject: Re: Europa-List: Bob Borger especially --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" > > > ......but not exclusively........... Bob, Thank you > again for offering photos to chase down the brake line > connector. HOWEVER, there I am, lying on my back under > the beast, cutting the safety wire to free up the brake > slave cylinder, cursing my luck, skinning my knuckles > and punctruing bits of this and that with the remnants > of safety wire.............only to loosen the brake > cylinder to permit rotating of the ell connector (so's > I can hook up the brake line). Are you with me? All > that done and I start screwing in the ell. Your photo > 133 of 187 in your album shows a perfect attachment. > MINE tightens the ell into the cylinder body exactly > 180 degrees out of whack. Can I gronch the little > B******r around to the forward position thus risking a > snapped ell ( and the nearest next one in UK)? ....or > can I fashion a washer from the extra nut which came > with the ell so as to unscrew 180 degres and tighten up > the nut? basically how did you (or any other reader!) > tighten up the brakeline ell so that it points forward > to accept the brakeline? Kindest regards to all on > board for the Christmas season. Ferg A064 lying here > waiting, waiting................ I think the furnace > just quit. If you cover the (male) thread with PTFE tape. plenty of it, the thread might go in 180 degrees less. Richard ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:17:09 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: RE: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) From: "josok" 0.64 REPLY_TO_EMPTY Reply-To: is empty --> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" Thanks for the sharing of the experience. Having heard of a cs controller that allows revers pitch i am wondering now how unsafe this would be. On the other hand, i don't think Mike would have continued his take off with a prop in reverse pitch! Regards, Jos Okhuijsen ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:00 AM PST US From: "GLENN CROWDER" Subject: Europa-List: NSI CAP 140 prop issue --> Europa-List message posted by: "GLENN CROWDER" I ran into the same situation with my earlier NSI CAP 140 prop with the wires going into the hub. No inflight problem but found one of the wires had almost worn thru. There were/are some fairly sharp edges where the wires feed in and no heat shrink protection. I radiused the sharp corners and added a ton of heat shrink on the wires to prevent chafing, then potted the wires with Goop so they coudn't flex. Glenn ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:46 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Bob Borger especially From: Robert Borger --> Europa-List message posted by: Robert Borger Ferg, WRT - "MINE tightens the ell into the cylinder body exactly 180 degrees out of whack. Can I gronch the little B******r around to the forward position thus risking a snapped ell ( and the nearest next one in UK)? ....or can I fashion a washer from the extra nut which came with the ell so as to unscrew 180 degres and tighten up the nut? basically how did you (or any other reader!) tighten up the brakeline ell so that it points forward to accept the brakeline?" My sympathies on the removal of the safety wire and brake caliper assembly. I fear that I shall have to do the same to remove the wheel so I can get in and talcum powder the inner tube before I pump it up to full pressure. I just returned from examining the brake assembly on N914XL. I was pondering exactly how I was able to get the "L" pointed in the right direction. Unfortunately, I have slept several times since then and don't have a specific recollection. Since I believe we are working with NPT type threads (these are tapered pipe threads), I don't think that you can back them out and apply a washer to get it into position. I see two choices: 1. Apply a wrench to get the needed 180 degrees and hope it doesn't snap off at 175 degrees (perhaps some teflon pipe thread sealant might help here), or, 2. Back it out, apply a turn or two of teflon tape to the threads of the "L" and see if that will allow you to come up tighter sooner, perhaps close to the needed position. If I am incorrect about the threads and they are not NPT, then a washer 1/2 the thickness of the thread pitch might get you what you want. But, I really don't see a shoulder on the threads for that washer to come up against. More reason to think these may be NPT threads. In any case, I am open to other builders suggestions on this point. Good building and great flying, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL (85%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in with Singleton Mod, outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in, Mod 70 done, baggage bay in. Completing the firewall-aft fuel system and fitting the instrument panel. Working in - 24 Instrument Panel, 25 Electrical, 28 Flaps, 29 Main Gear, 30 Fuel System, 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35 Doors, 37 Finishing. Airmaster arrived 29 Sep 05. Seat arrived from Oregon Aero. Preparing ROTAX 914 for installation. 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:27:44 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Bob Borger especially From: --> Europa-List message posted by: "L" pointed in the right direction" I have same problem on my Mono. I will apply Redux as a sealant. I checked and it is safe for DOT 5, I am not sure about DOT 3 or 4 or other types of Brake Fluid. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:10:14 PM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" "Robert Borger" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Bob Borger especially --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" Bob, Richard, Jos et al, Thanks for the quick reply (I finally got up for lunch). I Googled the loctite outfit and stumbled on Loctite 243 data sheet about the same time I fell upon a bottle of the same in my kit of bits. the page you may want to peruse (Jos) is: http://tds.loctite.com/tds5/docs/243-EN.PDF It especially advertises its resistance to brake fluid, so am daubing onto the ell threads and praying slightly. I'l give it a couple of days to find itself, but believe in time it will prove worthy. I appreciate the value of this list and the friends it coughs up! Merry Christmas, Happy Chanukah, etc. Ferg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Borger" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Bob Borger especially | Ferg, | | WRT - | | "MINE tightens the ell into the cylinder body exactly 180 degrees out | of whack. Can I gronch the little B******r around to the forward | position thus risking a snapped ell ( and the nearest next one in | UK)? ....or can I fashion a washer from the extra nut which came with | the ell so as to unscrew 180 degres and tighten up the nut? basically | how did you (or any other reader!) tighten up the brakeline ell so | that it points forward to accept the brakeline?" | | My sympathies on the removal of the safety wire and brake caliper | assembly. I fear that I shall have to do the same to remove the | wheel so I can get in and talcum powder the inner tube before I pump | it up to full pressure. | | I just returned from examining the brake assembly on N914XL. I was | pondering exactly how I was able to get the "L" pointed in the right | direction. Unfortunately, I have slept several times since then and | don't have a specific recollection. | | Since I believe we are working with NPT type threads (these are | tapered pipe threads), I don't think that you can back them out and | apply a washer to get it into position. I see two choices: 1. Apply | a wrench to get the needed 180 degrees and hope it doesn't snap off | at 175 degrees (perhaps some teflon pipe thread sealant might help | here), or, 2. Back it out, apply a turn or two of teflon tape to the | threads of the "L" and see if that will allow you to come up tighter | sooner, perhaps close to the needed position. | | If I am incorrect about the threads and they are not NPT, then a | washer 1/2 the thickness of the thread pitch might get you what you | want. But, I really don't see a shoulder on the threads for that | washer to come up against. More reason to think these may be NPT | threads. | | In any case, I am open to other builders suggestions on this point. | | Good building and great flying, | Bob Borger | Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S | http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL | (85%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch | system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in with Singleton | Mod, outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing | incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in, Mod 70 done, baggage bay | in. Completing the firewall-aft fuel system and fitting the | instrument panel. Working in - 24 Instrument Panel, 25 Electrical, | 28 Flaps, 29 Main Gear, 30 Fuel System, 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35 | Doors, 37 Finishing. Airmaster arrived 29 Sep 05. Seat arrived from | Oregon Aero. Preparing ROTAX 914 for installation. | 3705 Lynchburg Dr. | Corinth, TX 76208 | Home: 940-497-2123 | Cel: 817-992-1117 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:45:03 PM PST US From: Jim Brown Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) --> Europa-List message posted by: Jim Brown The reverse pitch props are usually installed on float equipped aircraft to help with docking. They do have some sort of a lock out to keep such a thing from occurring. Jim Brown joss wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" > > Thanks for the sharing of the experience. Having heard of a cs controller that allows revers pitch i am wondering now how unsafe this would be. On the other hand, i don't think Mike would have continued his take off with a prop in reverse pitch! > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > ---------------- > Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:47:06 PM PST US From: "ivor.phillips" Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: Bob Borger especially --> Europa-List message posted by: "ivor.phillips" I used exactly the same on my pipe fittings, All Metal with DOT5.1 Glycol base Brake fluid, Been Working fine for the last year, No leaks and fittings in the right place regards Ivor Phillips > > What i did was use some Locktite 577, a thread sealant suitable for gas, > oil and water. This hardens in 24 hrs. Turned it by hand to almost the > right position, and carefully with some pliers to do the last. System is > filled and does not leak a drop. (Now waiting until somebody tells me it > is not suitable for brake fluid :-) ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:18:14 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: Bob Borger especially --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! Ferg/all I researched an equivalent swivel unit tighten it up with ptfe tape and it looks in any direction you wish ! Regards Bob H G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of josok Subject: Europa-List: RE: Bob Borger especially --> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" Hi Ferg, What i did was use some Locktite 577, a thread sealant suitable for gas, oil and water. This hardens in 24 hrs. Turned it by hand to almost the right position, and carefully with some pliers to do the last. System is filled and does not leak a drop. (Now waiting until somebody tells me it is not suitable for brake fluid :-) Kind regards, Jos Okhuijsen ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:00 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! MT Propellers told me that "Beta Mode" couldn't be done with electric motored CS props only hydraulic can be made fail safe. Regards Bob H G-PTAG Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Brown Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) --> Europa-List message posted by: Jim Brown The reverse pitch props are usually installed on float equipped aircraft to help with docking. They do have some sort of a lock out to keep such a thing from occurring. Jim Brown joss wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" > > Thanks for the sharing of the experience. Having heard of a cs controller that allows revers pitch i am wondering now how unsafe this would be. On the other hand, i don't think Mike would have continued his take off with a prop in reverse pitch! > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > ---------------- > Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:26:22 PM PST US From: Bbryanallsop@wmconnect.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fw: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) --> Europa-List message posted by: Bbryanallsop@wmconnect.com Hi all, Mike said, < I asked Francis Donaldson of the PFA for advice on the settings for VP props, and he immediately sent me a copy of the instructions he had issued last year in connection with a Permit to Test. In this case it was for a Europa/Rotax/Kremen 2000 set up> I think it must have been my Woodcomp CS 2000 installation on G BYSA that F.D. contrived these instructions for. At the time I cursed about the delay, and the extent of the testing required, but I believed them to be common for all CS props. He insisted that the prop could not allow the engine to over rev in the climb state even at its' finest setting. In fact in the variable pitch mode the prop can be made to go finer than the finest constant speed setting. It is the finest setting in that VP mode that the engine speed cannot not be allowed to exceed the limit. I did find the dive to max knots with the pitch set to course and the engine idling, an interesting experience. You have to dive very very steeply, monitor the airspeed, and note the engine revs with the ground coming up at you fast. As I recall, the revs never got anywhere near the max, so I am confident the my engine will not over rev in a dive. If it does, I don't want to be in it. Has anyone else done this test with a Woodcomp? If so, did they experience the same? Cheers Bryan Allsop ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:34 PM PST US From: "William Mills" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fw: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills" Bryan, I had exactly the same test regime for the Arplast PV50 in 2000 as for the Woodcomp SR 2000 in 2004. Both included the over-spending in fine, the positive rate of climb in coarse and the VNE dive. I assumed this testing was common to all VP props, whether manual VP, or automatic CS. The results in the dive were about the same for both props, if I can remember correctly. I had my PV 50 (manual VP prop) get stuck in the fully coarse setting during a flight, owing to a failed relay, but you just have to cope with each problem to the best of your ability, in the same way as you have to cope with the situation if the engine were to stop. The limit switch settings in the PV 50 can also creep over time. That has happened to mine. I am very saddened by the comments made by "another Europa Club Member" about Mark's experience, as reported by Gerry. I thought everyone realised that mechanical, electrical and electronic components can fail at any time without notice, when taking off, cruising, or landing. There is nothing you can do to stop an aircraft from becoming U/S in flight. I consider Mark handled the situation in a very professional manner, and he should be congratulated for landing his aircraft safely and sharing his experience with us all. Best wishes for a happy Christmas to all, William Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fw: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) > --> Europa-List message posted by: Bbryanallsop@wmconnect.com > > Hi all, > > Mike said, > > < I asked Francis Donaldson of the PFA for advice on the settings for VP > props, and he immediately sent me a copy of the instructions he had issued > last year in connection with a Permit to Test. In this case it was for a > Europa/Rotax/Kremen 2000 set up> > > I think it must have been my Woodcomp CS 2000 installation on G BYSA that > F.D. contrived these instructions for. At the time I cursed about the > delay, and > the extent of the testing required, but I believed them to be common for > all > CS props. He insisted that the prop could not allow the engine to over rev > in > the climb state even at its' finest setting. In fact in the variable pitch > mode > the prop can be made to go finer than the finest constant speed setting. > It > is the finest setting in that VP mode that the engine speed cannot not be > allowed to exceed the limit. > > I did find the dive to max knots with the pitch set to course and the > engine > idling, an interesting experience. You have to dive very very steeply, > monitor the airspeed, and note the engine revs with the ground coming up > at you > fast. As I recall, the revs never got anywhere near the max, so I am > confident the > my engine will not over rev in a dive. If it does, I don't want to be in > it. > > Has anyone else done this test with a Woodcomp? If so, did they experience > the same? > > Cheers Bryan Allsop > > > -- > 14/12/2005 >