---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 12/18/05: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:52 AM - FW: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) (Mike Gregory) 2. 10:46 AM - Re: FW: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) (Mike Parkin) 3. 11:14 AM - Re: FW: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) (Trevpond@aol.com) 4. 12:10 PM - Re: FW: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) (rmrrick) 5. 01:35 PM - Re: FW: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) (Mike Parkin) 6. 03:17 PM - Re: FW: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) (rmrrick) 7. 06:21 PM - UV Smooth prime () 8. 07:05 PM - Re: UV Smooth prime (Michael Grass) 9. 07:48 PM - Fuel consumption - Cold day (Paul McAllister) 10. 07:48 PM - Vertical Card Compass (Paul McAllister) 11. 08:02 PM - Re: UV Smooth prime (Bbryanallsop@wmconnect.com) 12. 10:06 PM - Re: Fuel consumption - Cold day (R.C.Harrison) 13. 10:27 PM - Re: Vertical Card Compass (Cliff Shaw) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:52:10 AM PST US From: "Mike Gregory" Subject: Europa-List: FW: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Gregory" I had been concerned to find out why the limit switches on Mark's aircraft had not been in the correct position to prevent the engine over-speeding on takeoff when the connection to the electric pitch-adjustment motor failed after he'd left it at fully fine for starting. Mark has responded as follows to my points (marked >) and I have accepted his invitation to publish his reply verbatim on the list to complete the picture. Once again, I'm grateful to Mark for "baring his chest" on this incident. Mike Europa Club Safety Officer safety@europaclub.org.uk Hello Mike, > I'm not sure what you have to reproach yourself with, unless there was some requirement (e.g. at Annual) for you to check the fine pitch stop subsequent to the original installation flight test and sign off for the permit that you failed to carry out. All I can do is explain how it all happened. You as a safety officer will recognise that as it is often the case, it took a sequence events to cause the end result. Back in 2001, I fitted my first PV50. I carried out all the adjustments and flight tests required by the PFA. It is worth noting that to obtain an acceptable fine pitch limit position I had to round the corner on the small piece of brass that secures the fine limit microswitch so that it could travel another 1/2 mm or so in its adjustment slot. Without that tiny mod, the range of adjustment was too small. Everything was fine for a couple of years until I foolishly ground looped G-NEAT and comprehensively destroyed the PV50. So a new PV50 was obtained and hung on the front. By then, I had forgotten about having to mod the limit switch securing block and so I simply put the switches in approximately the right positions and started ground testing. As you know, the final positions can only be determined by flight testing. Once flight testing started, I discovered that my brand new PV50 had a problem in that the pitch change motor had an intermittent fault and so the motor was swapped. After that, the normal PFA flight test was carried out but not the VP prop test that we have been discussing. I can't say why I didn't do the VP prop test at that time, it probably got forgotten due to the hassle of the broken pitch motor. I certainly didn't deliberately avoid doing it. I suppose my inspector could have checked whether I had done it or not but, really, he had done his part in insuring that the aircraft was airworthy following the repairs needed after the ground loop and left it to me to carry out the flight testing. I claim full responsibility for the limit being incorrect. Incidentally, my CS controller has a "soft fine pitch limit" that stops the pitch reducing below a preset point. This means that unless, I deliberately reduced the pitch by using the manual control, it would not normally be actually at the hard limit during take off. The other day, because it is winter and I have always had problems starting my engine in winter, I manually reduced the pitch to the hard limit. If I had remembered to coarsen the pitch again before take off as I often do, the flight would have been much less scary. > When I spoke to Pete yesterday he was surprised that there was not enough adjustment on your fine pitch stop to achieve the ideal setting ~ he expected there to be more than enough to meet the requirement. On the 2 PV50s that I have have had experience with, neither have provided sufficient adjustment. In fact, they were dispatched from the factory with the limit switches set to completely unrealistic positions. But hell, they are French, so perhaps that is to be expected. > What is of concern to me (and would no doubt exercise Francis) is why there was any significant change in the setting from your original setup, assuming no disturbance/ damage. Is there a case for calling up a periodic check for this particular propeller, or indeed for all VP props? No, the setting didn't change over time so I don't believe that it is an issue. Having said that, when I carry out my annual, I always check that the switches have not moved as a matter of course. > From Francis's reply to my message of yesterday afternoon (copied to Mark) I would not expect him to be in "punishment" mode in respect of your incident. Well that's nice to know. I shall, of course, be shortly providing FD with the explanation given above along with a new VP prop flight test report. > Thanks again for your full and frank disclosure ~ I've already had somebody e-mail me direct with a query about his Arplast propeller. Overall, I do not believe that the Arplast is a bad product. Its weakest point is the pitch motor which has a poor track record (they tend to burn out rather too easily (that's another story)). Also, their wiring could be better. To compensate, the hub is OK and the blades are very good indeed. I would still choose an Arplast instead of an Airmaster any day. Finally, I have no problem at all with anyone discussing these issues either privately or publicly but it would be more polite if they could at least take the time to learn the facts before making pronouncements about what I or my inspector may or may not have done. Feel free to send verbatim copies of this email to anyone you wish (including the Europa list if you feel that is appropriate). Regards, Mark ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:46:58 AM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: Re: Europa-List: FW: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Parkin" > On the 2 PV50s that I have have had experience with, neither have provided > sufficient adjustment. In fact, they were dispatched from the factory with > the limit switches set to completely unrealistic positions. But hell, they > are French, so perhaps that is to be expected. > > Overall, I do not believe that the Arplast is a bad product. Its weakest > point is the pitch motor which has a poor track record (they tend to burn > out rather too easily (that's another story)). Also, their wiring could be > better. To compensate, the hub is OK and the blades are very good indeed. > I > would still choose an Arplast instead of an Airmaster any day. > You have never owned an Airmaster???? - But you would still choose an Arplast over an Airmaster -----the mind boggles. MP ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:14:40 AM PST US From: Trevpond@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: FW: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) --> Europa-List message posted by: Trevpond@aol.com In a message dated 18/12/2005 18:52:26 GMT Standard Time, mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com writes: On the 2 PV50s that I have have had experience with, neither have provided > sufficient adjustment. In fact, they were dispatched from the factory with > the limit switches set to completely unrealistic positions. But hell, they > are French, so perhaps that is to be expected. > > Overall, I do not believe that the Arplast is a bad product. Its weakest > point is the pitch motor which has a poor track record (they tend to burn > out rather too easily (that's another story)). Also, their wiring could be > better. To compensate, the hub is OK and the blades are very good indeed. > I > would still choose an Arplast instead of an Airmaster any day. > You have never owned an Airmaster???? - But you would still choose an Arplast over an Airmaster -----the mind boggles. MP Here Here Mike!!! TP ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:10:08 PM PST US From: rmrrick Subject: Re: Europa-List: FW: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) --> Europa-List message posted by: rmrrick Dear Mike I'm sorry that your mind boggles. I have chosen a 912S, having never having owned a Subaru for example, but I would choose a Rota x again for what I consider to be good reasons having done a little research. Is this illogical? All the best and a very happy Xmas to one and all. Rick Morris G-RIKS 912S Tri gear (Arplast PV50). > >You have never owned an Airmaster???? - But you would still choose an >Arplast over an Airmaster -----the mind boggles. > >MP > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:35:46 PM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: Re: Europa-List: FW: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Parkin" Yes, but I wouldn't choose a Rotax again if it had a known list of weaknesses - while at the same time the Subaru was free of similar weaknesses. Is that illogical? LSD is a feature here - not the hallucogenic type. And a Merry Christmas to all. MP ----- Original Message ----- From: "rmrrick" Subject: Re: Europa-List: FW: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) > --> Europa-List message posted by: rmrrick > > Dear Mike > > I'm sorry that your mind boggles. I have chosen a 912S, having never > having owned a Subaru for example, but I would choose a Rota x again for > what I consider to be good reasons having done a little research. Is > this illogical? > > All the best and a very happy Xmas to one and all. > > Rick Morris > > G-RIKS 912S Tri gear (Arplast PV50). > >> >>You have never owned an Airmaster???? - But you would still choose an >>Arplast over an Airmaster -----the mind boggles. >> >>MP >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:17:27 PM PST US From: rmrrick Subject: Re: Europa-List: FW: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) --> Europa-List message posted by: rmrrick mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com wrote: >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Parkin" > >Yes, but I wouldn't choose a Rotax again if it had a known list of >weaknesses - while at the same time the Subaru was free of similar >weaknesses. > >Is that illogical? > >LSD is a feature here - not the hallucogenic type. > >And a Merry Christmas to all. > >MP > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "rmrrick" >To: >Subject: Re: Europa-List: FW: CS Prop Failure (a cautionary tale) > > > > >>--> Europa-List message posted by: rmrrick >> >>Dear Mike >> >>I'm sorry that your mind boggles. I have chosen a 912S, having never >>having owned a Subaru for example, but I would choose a Rota x again for >>what I consider to be good reasons having done a little research. Is >>this illogical? >> >>All the best and a very happy Xmas to one and all. >> >>Rick Morris >> >>G-RIKS 912S Tri gear (Arplast PV50). >> >> >> >>>You have never owned an Airmaster???? - But you would still choose an >>>Arplast over an Airmaster -----the mind boggles. >>> >>>MP >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > > The initial cost, blade effiency and geographic support are three negatives in my mind...... Either way no one should accuse Mark, of all people, of not having carefully considered his decision. Rick ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:38 PM PST US From: Subject: Europa-List: UV Smooth prime --> Europa-List message posted by: Hi Folks An Xmas present for some one! I have a gallon of Poly Fiber uv Smoothe Prime free to the first that responds and will pay for the packaging and shipping. Probably best in the US. It is unopened and comes with the catalyst. Merry holiday. Tom (XS mono that is getting really dangerous to becoming airborne.) -- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:10 PM PST US From: "Michael Grass" Subject: Re: Europa-List: UV Smooth prime --> Europa-List message posted by: "Michael Grass" I would be delighted to receive that early Xmas gift Michael Grass A266 Trigear ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Europa-List: UV Smooth prime > --> Europa-List message posted by: > > Hi Folks > > An Xmas present for some one! I have a gallon of Poly Fiber uv Smoothe > Prime free to the first that responds and will pay for the packaging and > shipping. Probably best in the US. > > It is unopened and comes with the catalyst. > > Merry holiday. > > Tom (XS mono that is getting really dangerous to becoming airborne.) > > -- > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:59 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Europa-List: Fuel consumption - Cold day --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Hi all, For some reason that is hard to explain, I took my airplane out flying today when it was really, really cold. I guess I hadn't had a "Europa fix" for 3 weeks. Anyhow, the OAT was -13 centigrade and I noticed that my fuel burn for the same power settings was significantly lower. At 28" @ 5000 I usually run at 5 US gallons an hour. Today it was 4.2 I was wondering what was the major contributing factor. For example, given that it was so cold, would the fuel density been significantly different and I was still burning at the same pounds / per hour rate, or was the dense air allowing the propeller / airfoil to be that much more efficient ? Second question for those that are more familiar with Bing carburetors. When I reduce power from around 28" to 23 " the EGT's spike. If I do it too quickly then the will hit the maximum allowable temperatures. Why is this, and is there an adjustment that I can make ? Paul ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:59 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Europa-List: Vertical Card Compass --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Hi all, I was wondering if anyone had put in a vertical card compass in there panel and been able to successfully adjust the offsets. Paul ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:32 PM PST US From: Bbryanallsop@wmconnect.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: UV Smooth prime --> Europa-List message posted by: Bbryanallsop@wmconnect.com In a message dated 12/18/2005 9:44:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, beecho@beecho.org writes: > XS mono that is getting really dangerous to becoming airborne.) > > Really, I must protest! Mono's are really friendly little things. They do > not harm a soul until the pilot gets in. > > Happy Christmas. > > Bryan Allsop (mono owner) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:03 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel consumption - Cold day --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi!Paul During my quest for improved fuel usage on my Jabiru 3300 I used to blast around at generally 2,400 RPM with manifold pressure at approx. " squared " (the general rule of thumb) at 24" at around 120 kts cruise using about 6 Imp. Gallons per hour. I now have generally 5 Imp Gallons per hour with 2,600RPM and manifold pressure of 20" but 110 kts cruise. I can often improve on that but only by flying high. The colder ambient temperatures allow a more efficient mix combination so you save fuel and increase power Hence Intercooler Technology. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300 -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister Subject: Europa-List: Fuel consumption - Cold day --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Hi all, For some reason that is hard to explain, I took my airplane out flying today when it was really, really cold. I guess I hadn't had a "Europa fix" for 3 weeks. Anyhow, the OAT was -13 centigrade and I noticed that my fuel burn for the same power settings was significantly lower. At 28" @ 5000 I usually run at 5 US gallons an hour. Today it was 4.2 I was wondering what was the major contributing factor. For example, given that it was so cold, would the fuel density been significantly different and I was still burning at the same pounds / per hour rate, or was the dense air allowing the propeller / airfoil to be that much more efficient ? Second question for those that are more familiar with Bing carburetors. When I reduce power from around 28" to 23 " the EGT's spike. If I do it too quickly then the will hit the maximum allowable temperatures. Why is this, and is there an adjustment that I can make ? Paul ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:27:20 PM PST US From: "Cliff Shaw" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vertical Card Compass --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" Paul Bob and I could NOT get his to work well. I put in a regular compass mounted to the overhead. Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul McAllister To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 7:47 PM Subject: Europa-List: Vertical Card Compass --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Hi all, I was wondering if anyone had put in a vertical card compass in there panel and been able to successfully adjust the offsets. Paul