Today's Message Index:
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1. 12:46 AM - Re: Europa-list: fitting gascolator (Mike Parkin)
2. 01:26 AM - Re: Europa-list: fitting gascolator (BEBERRY@AOL.COM)
3. 02:04 AM - fitting gascolator (Graham Singleton)
4. 04:44 AM - Re: Europa-list: Use of 2 pumps (was fitting gascolator) (David Joyce)
5. 08:25 AM - Re: Europa-list: fitting gascolator (R.C.Harrison)
6. 09:43 AM - Re: Rotax Engines for Sale (Dan Bish)
7. 02:40 PM - Re: Europa-list: fitting gascolator (Bryan Allsop)
8. 09:58 PM - Re: fitting gascolator (josok)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Europa-list: fitting gascolator |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
> The filters supplied by Europa Aircraft have none of those characteristics
> and are therefore potentially dangerous. This is especially true as most
> of us are using Mogas which is more likely to be contaminated, even when
> using a filtering funnel at every fill up. The dual filter arrangement is
> a big improvement but is not fully satisfactory. Keep in mind that the
> filter has the most chance to clog and the engine to stop, when the fuel
> flow is maximum, i.e. during the take off phase. I believe you would crash
> before having time to switch to the other filter, should that happen to
> you.
>
> Remi Guerner
>
> F-PGKL, XS S/N395 monowheel, 288 hours on a 914 + 89 hours since fitted
> with the 912S.
>
Remi,
I have the original pump and filter layout for a 914 installation. On the
original installation there is no facility to switch to a second filter.
Fuel flow through the standby filter depends totally on the standby pump.
My experience has shown that what contamination there may be in the system,
it has never manifested itself in the 'standby filter'. Possibly because I
only use the secondary pump during critical flight phases (generally below
1000' AGL). That means if following the correct operating procedures, both
pumps are ON during take-off and initial climb - therefore both filters and
both pumps are in use when the fuel flow is at a maximum. Switching from
MAIN to RESERVE will only be of benefit if there is a flow restriction
before the fuel selector. ( perhaps the finger strainer - which is were I
understand Bob Harrison's problem was.)
Incidentally, I did have a splutter in the cruise when I purposely ran the
MAIN side down to get a feel for the usuable fuel indication. (Overhead the
field!!). I fitted a fuel Low Pressure light to G-JULZ - the light blinked
several times before the engine 'coughed' giving a little warning of the
impending problem.
regards,
Mike
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Europa-list: fitting gascolator |
--> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com
I have been following the fuel filter thread with interest. Having run a
PA28 for a good many years and NEVER having a fuel problem, except for a VERY
occasional drop of water - which is easily disposed of pre flight by the drain
valves. I am inclined to think that the problems of grot in the filters
arises entirely from an accumulation of matter caused by interaction between the
fuel and the tank material. It seems to me that this is something that the
manufacturers' boffins could easily remedy.
I have had to clean out carbs to get rid of ' snot' which I have never seen
on any other aircraft.
The point made yesterday, that in keeping the filters easily accessible, is
also valid. It is essential , in my view, that this is the case so that both
pre flight and inflight inspections can be made. The filters in my 914 are
parallel, with the pumps and very easily disconnected and cleaned out. I
have never found any grot in there but will continue to do this at regular
intervals.
Another view, expressed by someone who has far more technical and general
Europa experience than I, is that both pumps should be on all the time.
Comments appreciated.
Patrick
Message 3
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| Subject: | fitting gascolator |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa-list:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
>> Hmmmmmmm. My experience with the two inline 914 filters has been just
>> fine.
>
>250 hrs in and never a filter problem in G-JULZ. I echo your comments.
>Please let us not criticise a system that is operating successfully in
>dozens of aircraft because of a suspect installation/fuel supply.
>
>regards,
>
>MP
>
Mike
there is one issue no one's mentioned yet; the flexible fuel pipes.
Every time the Purolators are checked the fuel lines are disturbed and
crushed. This physical abuse plus the agressive effects of some unknown
constituent in Mogas may well cause bits of elastomer to drop off the
inside of the fuel lines. I've seen it happen.
I also saw someone's fuel line suddenly start leaking seriously on the
way back from Ivalo, couple hundred miles north of the Arctic Circle.
What do they put in the fuel up there Jos?
Graham
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Europa-list: Use of 2 pumps (was fitting gascolator) |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk>
Patrick, I recall an incident report put out quite a few years ago by the
Europa team about the company demonstrator which was at that time as I
recall it with 914 and a single gascolator. Apparently the engine began to
splutter and on switching on the second fuel pump ran smoothly enough to get
them home. The Gascolator screen showed a fair amount of the 'gunge' that
many people have described soon after commissioning and assumed to be some
sort of filler material from the tank. Their interpretation was that this
amount of gunge was enough to produce fuel starvation with the pressure of
one pump but two pumps pushed hard enough to keep things running. So my
advice would be to run on one pump to give early warning of fuel flow
problems and keep the other in reserve (& save a bit of electricity!)
On a different tack I have occasionally found a bit of water in
the various Avgas fuelled planes I have flown but never in 400hrs of my
Europa, using almost exclusively Mogas. Could it be that the ethanol in
Mogas will absorb/dissolve small amounts of water?
Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ
----- Original Message -----
From: <BEBERRY@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa-list: fitting gascolator
> --> Europa-List message posted by: BEBERRY@aol.com
> Another view, expressed by someone who has far more technical and general
> Europa experience than I, is that both pumps should be on all the time.
>
> Comments appreciated.
>
> Patrick
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> National Patient Safety Agency - supporting Doctors.net.uk members in safe
practice.
> http://www.doctors.net.uk/NPSA
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Europa-list: fitting gascolator |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Hi! Mike.
I thought I had been meticulous but as you said it was the finger
filters which caught me out and for what it's worth if all that they
both had collected were to be put into the gascolator it would still NOT
have starved the engine (No matter how much fuel it uses !)
So now I don't have finger filters, I have opened up the drilling
intersections within the tank connectors and use a fine gauze filter in
the filler when filling but I bet if you tried you'd get German Shepherd
hairs through it (end on!) and your finger filters would manage to grab
them if you had the misfortune to get the problem.
The irony in my case was that, even though I only use the reserve side
the requisite occasional proof period, it had collected sufficient to
suffer the same problem as the main side so both finger filters had
failed within 10 minutes of each other with nothing found in the
gascolator further down the line. My experience with the Europa in line
original filters was early during test flying from tank swarf in the
usual manner often found.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300 (able to use as much fuel as
it needs at all times !)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa-list: fitting gascolator
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Parkin"
<mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
> I hear your theory but it has one slight draw back..... the reserve
side
> will attract a bigger deposit of contamination (since that side gets
all
> the fill up fuel and the main side on the other side of the tunnel has
> consequently less chance of contamination.) So when you switch to the
> reserve side(having had the "splutters" from the main)you can bet it
> will be for a very short time !
> Sorry guys IMHO and experience the inline filters just can not
> accommodate, or for that matter certainly not separate any water.
> Regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300 c/w gascolator ....etc
etc.!
> then there's the dog hairs!!!! Beat you to the punch Nev!
>
Bob,
This seems to me to be a question of care and good practices. If one is
careful to keep any rubbish out of the system during the building, and
filter all fuel that goes into the tank, clogging should not be an
issue.
The small deposits that will accumulate overtime are adequately handled
by
routine filter changes.
I don't think the Proline filters are intended to be water seperators -
just
inline filters.
Of course large filters might be required if one's power unit uses a lot
of
fuel.(teehee!!)
regards,
Mike
3 German Shepherds but never a problem of doghair in the workshop.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Engines for Sale |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Dan Bish" <DanBish@norwalktucson.com>
Well, my computer skills being what they are, several of the links in my
message yesterday didn't work. Here they are again:
http://www.cattoprops.com/html/velocity_xl_props.html
www.hyperspectral.com <http://www.hyperspectral.com/> (Don't bother,
site is offline)
http://www.scaled.com/projects/raptor.html
You may reach Dave at davedent@comcast.net
The problem was that I put periods at the end of everything, I think.
Regardless, if you have interest you can now at least get to the sites.
All the best,
Dan Bish
Kit A144 - N914RB
Tucson, AZ USA
XS Mono - 914
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Europa-list: fitting gascolator |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Bryan Allsop" <bryan@blackballclub.com>
My experience is the same as Gary's. 100's of hours with no problems using
the Europa in line filters.
One exception though! I normally filter when using mogas. On one occasion
this year I used a can of someone else's mogas en-route to France. One hour
later the fuel pressure dropped really low, even with the electric pump
doubling up. I switched to the other fuel line with the second filter, and
the pressure came back up. After landing I cleaned a load of rubbish out of
the first filter, the second was clean.
I flew the rest of the trip around France on the first filter without
problem. Some weeks later the problem started to come back, so I stripped
the filter again and examined the debris under a microscope. Surprisingly,
the contents looked like scraps of ant bodies. Legs, heads, body parts. It
has never recurred, but how they got in there is a test of the imagination.
Cheers. Bryan Allsop
----- Original Message -----
From: "Garry" <garrys@tampabay.rr.com>
> Hmmmmmmm. My experience with the two inline 914 filters has been just
> fine.
> I changed the filters once after the first 10 hours, and then again at 175
> hours. I now have 400 hours and will probably change them at my next
> annual
> inspection. I've never had a problem. Oh, and I use mogas, unfiltered,
> and
> I've never had any water in my tanks either.
>
> Garry Stout
> N4220S A060 Trigear 914, 400 hours
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | RE: fitting gascolator |
0.64 REPLY_TO_EMPTY Reply-To: is empty
--> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
Hmm, they put in some stuff to clean old residue from British petrol. If that
happens to clear a crack in the process it was unintended. Joking of course, but
the point is valid. 95 or 98 as we call it, has additions, unknown to us innocents.
It could well be that these additions interact with each other and or
the other materials we are using on our planes. I've followed some tests on mogas
in consumer magazines, and it's really amazing what it all contains, or even
does not contain. One of the samples did not contain any additions, by mistake
the selling company said. This pure fuel caused severe deposit in the engine
and fuel system....
Remarkable in this discussion are the people that keep telling that their fuel
has always been clean. They probably do not need filters or gascolators at all.
Or checklists either. It's always OK eh? They probably forget that just that
one, first incident could kill them. Wrong mentality in this hobby.
Kind Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
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