---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 01/15/06: 26 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:01 AM - Re: Wing skin separation HELP (KARL HEINDL) 2. 03:03 AM - Re: Europa-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 01/14/06 (Graham Singleton) 3. 04:01 AM - Re: Re: Europa-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 01/14/06 (Duncan McFadyean) 4. 04:27 AM - Re: Re: Europa-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 01/14/06 (William Daniell) 5. 06:56 AM - Re: Europa-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 01/14/06 (SteveD) 6. 07:09 AM - Monowheel Tire & Tube life (Paul McAllister) 7. 08:50 AM - Re: Re: Europa-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 01/14/06 (William Daniell) 8. 09:30 AM - Re: Re: Europa-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 01/14/06 (AlanB) 9. 09:45 AM - Re: Monowheel Tire & Tube life (Jerry Rehn) 10. 10:17 AM - Re: Wing skin separation HELP (Fred Fillinger) 11. 10:26 AM - Re: Monowheel Tire & Tube life (Jim Brown) 12. 10:49 AM - Re: Wing skin separation HELP (Duncan McFadyean) 13. 11:26 AM - Re: Wing skin separation HELP (Fred Fillinger) 14. 11:55 AM - Re: Wing skin separation HELP (Duncan McFadyean) 15. 02:27 PM - Re: Monowheel Tire & Tube life (Paul McAllister) 16. 03:16 PM - Re: Wing skin separation HELP (Rowland Carson) 17. 04:32 PM - Re: Tri-Gear Tire & Tube life (JEFF ROBERTS) 18. 05:34 PM - Wing tapes (Cliff Shaw) 19. 05:36 PM - Re: Tri-Gear Tire & Tube life (Cliff Shaw) 20. 05:58 PM - Re: Wing tapes Cliff < WileE> (EuropaXSA276@aol.com) 21. 06:02 PM - Re: Re: Europa-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 01/14/06 (Rman) 22. 06:08 PM - Re: Monowheel Tire & Tube life (SPurpura@aol.com) 23. 06:14 PM - Re: Re: Tri-Gear Tire & Tube life (Rman) 24. 06:18 PM - Re: Wing skin separation HELP (David Glauser) 25. 07:57 PM - Re: Wing tapes Cliff < WileE> (Cliff Shaw) 26. 10:41 PM - Re: Wing skin separation HELP (David DeFord) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:01:04 AM PST US From: "KARL HEINDL" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Wing skin separation HELP --> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" Will, Using just a heat gun would make it very difficult to get started. If it was me I would make up a "heat box" out of wood, with a long about 2 inch opening, with a heat gun at each end. It would need some holes to let the hot air escape. Hold it on top of the joint long enough to let the redux soften (trial and error) . Using a spatula, try lifting the skin along that section. Once you get one end separated, you may be able to loosen the remainder with just a heat gun and metal spatula. Karl >From: "William Daniell" >To: >Subject: Europa-List: Wing skin separation HELP >Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:36:28 -0500 > >--> Europa-List message posted by: "William Daniell" > >I have made an error in construction in the interior of the wings and very >cleverly close then (with the error inside). > >So now I have to open them again. > >Any ideas anyone? > >Thanks > >Will > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:03:23 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 01/14/06 --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton ime: 01:37:53 PM PST US From: "William Daniell" Subject: Europa-List: Wing skin separation HELP --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Daniell" I have made an error in construction in the interior of the wings and very cleverly close then (with the error inside). Will Will You have some work to do :-( . This is what I would do, but always get a second opinion. (I am old and daft ;-) according to some (my wife among em) You need to heat the Redux to around 120 deg C to soften the Redux and ideally it needs to be done quickly so that not too much heat gets to the rest of the structure. It won't melt, it just goes soft. You need a hot knife to slip between the joint. Start at the trailing edge, look for any area where the bond isn't prefect and atart there. Find a good quality table knife, one of the old fashioned thin springy ones that are perfect as spatulas, used to be made here in Sheffield England. (I hate the modern clumsy stiff ones >:o )You might find a Weller solder gun with a knife blade, failing that heat the knife then slip it in and cut, reheat and do it again. Once you have a legnth apart slip a wooden wedge in to spring the skins apart but gently!!! When you have the skin off, use a hot air gun on the reinforcement and use similar methods. You might be lucky and find you can pull the cloth off with pliers and hot air. Failing that a sharp wood chisel lightly tapped between, again with hot air but remember, each time you heat (post cure!) the new laminate gets stronger. best of luck Graham ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:01:07 AM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 01/14/06 --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" If: <> then (assuming 2 plies of reinforcement had been applied) one additional ply at 45 deg should provide equivalent strength to 2 at 45 deg. This would avoid the need to risk further damage in removing the erroneous plies. Subject to approval of your respective design/regulatory authority! Duncan McF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Singleton" Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 11:05 AM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 01/14/06 > --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton > > > ime: 01:37:53 PM PST US > From: "William Daniell" > Subject: Europa-List: Wing skin separation HELP > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Daniell" > > I have made an error in construction in the interior of the wings and very > cleverly close then (with the error inside). > Will > > > Will > You have some work to do :-( . This is what I would do, but always get a > second opinion. (I am old and daft ;-) according to some (my wife among > em) > You need to heat the Redux to around 120 deg C to soften the Redux and > ideally it needs to be done quickly so that not too much heat gets to the > rest of the structure. It won't melt, it just goes soft. You need a hot > knife to slip between the joint. Start at the trailing edge, look for any > area where the bond isn't prefect and atart there. Find a good quality > table knife, one of the old fashioned thin springy ones that are perfect > as spatulas, used to be made here in Sheffield England. (I hate the modern > clumsy stiff ones >:o )You might find a Weller solder gun with a knife > blade, failing that heat the knife then slip it in and cut, reheat and do > it again. Once you have a legnth apart slip a wooden wedge in to spring > the skins apart but gently!!! > When you have the skin off, use a hot air gun on the reinforcement and use > similar methods. You might be lucky and find you can pull the cloth off > with pliers and hot air. Failing that a sharp wood chisel lightly tapped > between, again with hot air but remember, each time you heat (post cure!) > the new laminate gets stronger. > best of luck > Graham > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:27:20 AM PST US From: "William Daniell" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 01/14/06 --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Daniell" Thanks to everyone... I will let you all know how I get on. Andy told me that I can put the 45 reinforcements on top of the 0/90 reinforcements so that is not a problem. AS for separating the skins, I had a go yesterday and I can tell you the peel strength is quite impressive... Watch this space. Will -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Duncan McFadyean Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 06:59 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 01/14/06 --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" If: <> then (assuming 2 plies of reinforcement had been applied) one additional ply at 45 deg should provide equivalent strength to 2 at 45 deg. This would avoid the need to risk further damage in removing the erroneous plies. Subject to approval of your respective design/regulatory authority! Duncan McF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Singleton" Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 11:05 AM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 01/14/06 > --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton > > > ime: 01:37:53 PM PST US > From: "William Daniell" > Subject: Europa-List: Wing skin separation HELP > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Daniell" > > I have made an error in construction in the interior of the wings and very > cleverly close then (with the error inside). > Will > > > Will > You have some work to do :-( . This is what I would do, but always get a > second opinion. (I am old and daft ;-) according to some (my wife among > em) > You need to heat the Redux to around 120 deg C to soften the Redux and > ideally it needs to be done quickly so that not too much heat gets to the > rest of the structure. It won't melt, it just goes soft. You need a hot > knife to slip between the joint. Start at the trailing edge, look for any > area where the bond isn't prefect and atart there. Find a good quality > table knife, one of the old fashioned thin springy ones that are perfect > as spatulas, used to be made here in Sheffield England. (I hate the modern > clumsy stiff ones >:o )You might find a Weller solder gun with a knife > blade, failing that heat the knife then slip it in and cut, reheat and do > it again. Once you have a legnth apart slip a wooden wedge in to spring > the skins apart but gently!!! > When you have the skin off, use a hot air gun on the reinforcement and use > similar methods. You might be lucky and find you can pull the cloth off > with pliers and hot air. Failing that a sharp wood chisel lightly tapped > between, again with hot air but remember, each time you heat (post cure!) > the new laminate gets stronger. > best of luck > Graham > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:56:42 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 01/14/06 From: "SteveD" --> Europa-List message posted by: "SteveD" Temperature is going to be the controlling factor here. The outer skin may or may not be ruined. The inner structure you definitely don't want to over heat. You might want to get a Templstick for a weld supplier. The come in various temp ranges. You draw on the part with it like a crayon and when the part hits the templsticks temp it melts. This would give you precise temp control of the surfaces. Chat Later, Steved ---------------- This Email contains Photos or Attachments located at the following link: http://www.europaowners.org/viewtopic.php?p=9287#9287 ---------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:07 AM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Europa-List: Monowheel Tire & Tube life --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Hi all, I am wondering how folks are making out with Monowheel tires and tube life. If I keep the tube inflation in the 18~20 psi then I find that it is really tough on the tubes. Yesterday I had my second tube failure while on landing. If you have ever had this happen is tough going, it is impossible to move the aircraft by hand. At this stage I am thinking of changing my tubes every 100 hours, but I am wondering about the tire. The tire I have now has 370 hours on it and it still has tread, how ever its obvious that the side walls have been weakened by the constant running at low pressure, so perhaps I need to change it more often as well. Thoughts ? Paul N378PJ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:50:13 AM PST US From: "William Daniell" Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 01/14/06 --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Daniell" Steve and all Thanks for all these suggestions. So far not so good I'm afraid - I tried a model aircraft iron, a soldering iron with a filed down tip, a hot knife, and a heat gun. All this on local areas. All I have so far is damaged top skin and a distinct nervousness about damage to the underneath structure. Prior to having a go at the skin I took the spar end guide/steel cup thing off in a heartbeat - just applied the heat gun to it and off it came. However the wing skin is a different story mainly I think because the fiber glass does not conduct heat. The other interesting thing is that it appears that the araldite does not melt - it sort of burns on the surface. This means that the soldering iron did not go through it - which surprised me. I have to take a break now - business trip and will return to the battle with renewed vigour next week end when I will write the next weeks thrilling instalment. Yous, a bit depressed in Bogota Will Ps looking on the bright side lucky I realized and secondly I will have a perfect bond when I glue the skins on again! -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of SteveD Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 09:55 Subject: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 01/14/06 --> Europa-List message posted by: "SteveD" Temperature is going to be the controlling factor here. The outer skin may or may not be ruined. The inner structure you definitely don't want to over heat. You might want to get a Templstick for a weld supplier. The come in various temp ranges. You draw on the part with it like a crayon and when the part hits the templsticks temp it melts. This would give you precise temp control of the surfaces. Chat Later, Steved ---------------- This Email contains Photos or Attachments located at the following link: http://www.europaowners.org/viewtopic.php?p=9287#9287 ---------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:30:32 AM PST US From: "AlanB" Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 01/14/06 --> Europa-List message posted by: "AlanB" >>So far not so good I'm afraid - I tried a model aircraft iron, a soldering > iron with a filed down tip, a hot knife, and a heat gun. All this on > local > areas.<< William, If I can add my twopenneth. I suggest, IMHO, that you might be localising the heat too much with the above tools. Try an experiment with some scrap pieces glued with Redux first. Then to get them apart heat the area by moving the heat gun from side to side warming the area, not localised heathing. Use a thin bladed flat knife, long enough to go all the way through the joint and tough enough not to snap, to get between the joint and create a gap. Work along the joint with the heat gun sweeping from side to side all the time heating an area not greating hot spots. Don't get the heat gun too close, else it burns, not too far or it won't heat enough and don't try to do it too quickly. Once you've got confidence from the experiment with the scrap then try your wing. All IMHO of course, but I have managed similar. Alan #0303 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:45:46 AM PST US From: "Jerry Rehn" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel Tire & Tube life --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jerry Rehn" Hi Paul I have been wondering the same. I have about 270 hrs. on same tire and tube with no problems to date with 18lbs. Tire looks ok but I have same concerns. Will be nice to hear from others. Regards Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul McAllister" Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 7:08 AM Subject: Europa-List: Monowheel Tire & Tube life >> > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:23 AM PST US From: "Fred Fillinger" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing skin separation HELP --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" My attempt to soften Redux, after it had cured a couple weeks, was too a failure. Too much heat required, verses heat to damage the glass structure, which conducts heat poorly to get at the green stuff. For my safety at least, I would be assuming this procedure might give me a potential airworthiness problem to forever worry me in severe turbulence. I'm surprised the factory would advise -- not knowing any builder's skill level -- removal by any method other than panel destruction and replacement (requiring essentially $$, that's all!). Otherwise a Hobson's choice on structural integrity, attempting a fix, the moral equivalent of "don't force it...use a bigger hammer." I don't have this style wing, but merely perused the XS manual online. It's my opinion that the primary purpose of the tapes is such that improper orientation of the fibers matters only a little, but I have no credentials to say that. But, when we add two more tapes, we do stiffen the ass'y there further, concentrating stresses elsewhere. That could mean a "seven yard gain, with a five yard penalty," as in U.S. football. So, if the factory can analyze that one with engineering analysis to say no harm, they should be able to say computationally why -- in stress paths -- 90 on the tapes is not good. Or more likely just their gut reaction and "usual rules" for FG construction. The only thing I would not do was a fix which may compromise the structure worse than the original problem. Reg, Fred F. (nickname "Hobson") ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:26:39 AM PST US From: Jim Brown Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel Tire & Tube life --> Europa-List message posted by: Jim Brown Paul I'm not sure what type tire you are using. I know early on, around 1998 Europa was supplying the tundra tires with their kits here in the US. and they took about 18 PSI. I am based at an airport with paved runways, and these tires were not user friendly, I was having some of the same problems you are having. I replaced that tire at about 100 hours with a standard aircraft tire. Since I do not fly off grass I keep 30-35 PSI. I got about 400 hours on this tire and replaced because the tread was worn off. If memory serves me correctly I also used a 6 ply tire. The side walls are much more stiffer and gives better control on landing. Jim Brown Paul McAllister wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" > > Hi all, > > I am wondering how folks are making out with Monowheel tires and tube life. > If I keep the tube inflation in the 18~20 psi then I find that it is really > tough on the tubes. Yesterday I had my second tube failure while on > landing. If you have ever had this happen is tough going, it is impossible > to move the aircraft by hand. > > At this stage I am thinking of changing my tubes every 100 hours, but I am > wondering about the tire. The tire I have now has 370 hours on it and it > still has tread, how ever its obvious that the side walls have been weakened > by the constant running at low pressure, so perhaps I need to change it more > often as well. Thoughts ? > > Paul > N378PJ > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:49:44 AM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing skin separation HELP --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <> Merely reduces strength by 30%! Would need to do another load test on the wing to confirm the effect. Duncan McF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Fillinger" Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:16 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing skin separation HELP > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" > > My attempt to soften Redux, after it had cured a couple weeks, was too a > failure. Too much heat required, verses heat to damage the glass > structure, which conducts heat poorly to get at the green stuff. For my > safety at least, I would be assuming this procedure might give me a > potential airworthiness problem to forever worry me in severe > turbulence. > > I'm surprised the factory would advise -- not knowing any builder's > skill level -- removal by any method other than panel destruction and > replacement (requiring essentially $$, that's all!). Otherwise a > Hobson's choice on structural integrity, attempting a fix, the moral > equivalent of "don't force it...use a bigger hammer." > > I don't have this style wing, but merely perused the XS manual online. > It's my opinion that the primary purpose of the tapes is such that > improper orientation of the fibers matters only a little, but I have no > credentials to say that. But, when we add two more tapes, we do stiffen > the ass'y there further, concentrating stresses elsewhere. That could > mean a "seven yard gain, with a five yard penalty," as in U.S. football. > So, if the factory can analyze that one with engineering analysis to say > no harm, they should be able to say computationally why -- in stress > paths -- 90 on the tapes is not good. Or more likely just their gut > reaction and "usual rules" for FG construction. > > The only thing I would not do was a fix which may compromise the > structure worse than the original problem. > > Reg, > Fred F. (nickname "Hobson") > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:26:38 AM PST US From: "Fred Fillinger" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing skin separation HELP --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" Duncan McFadyean wrote: > > Merely reduces strength by 30%! > Would need to do another load test on the wing to confirm the effect. I guess you mean tensile strength of the tape + resin, not the whole structure, but I'd a guessed more than 30. However, there's stresses from several directions here -- up/down in Gs, aft in drag, and twist (flap and aileron). But as to G forces, she tested beyond 10Gs, so maybe now 9Gs due to the tape problem? Who knows. We need only 3.8G for utility category safety, though, but I understand the conundrum, is all. Reg, Fred F. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:55:31 AM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing skin separation HELP --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" Inverse of the square root of 2. Or 0.707. Applied at 90 deg, half of the cloth is redundant to stresses orientated with weft or warp. Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Fillinger" Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 7:25 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing skin separation HELP > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" > > Duncan McFadyean wrote: >> >> Merely reduces strength by 30%! >> Would need to do another load test on the wing to confirm the effect. > > I guess you mean tensile strength of the tape + resin, not the whole > structure, but I'd a guessed more than 30. However, there's stresses > from several directions here -- up/down in Gs, aft in drag, and twist > (flap and aileron). But as to G forces, she tested beyond 10Gs, so > maybe now 9Gs due to the tape problem? Who knows. We need only 3.8G for > utility category safety, though, but I understand the conundrum, is all. > > Reg, > Fred F. > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:27:26 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Monowheel Tire & Tube life --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Hi Jim, I'm using a MCleary Airtrack 7/600, but inflated at 18 PSI. My first inner tube failure was at around 220 hours. The low pressure running caused chafing of the tube side wall to the point where it rubbed through. At that time I used the same tire and just put a new tube in it. The second failure was at 370 hours for the same reason however I noticed that although I had tread left the side walls of the tire were very weak when compared to a new tire. For the same pressure it looked much "flatter". I am assuming that internal structure of the tire was fatigued do to running it flat. What I am thinking of doing is to replace the tire every 200 hours and the tubes every 100 hours. Regards, Paul ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:22 PM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: RE: Europa-List: Wing skin separation HELP --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson At 2006-01-14 18:35 -0500 William Daniell wrote: >I am currently trying to heat up the skins to loosen the Araldite but I am >getting the distinct feeling that I will end up without useful skins and >with damage to the underneath structure Will - I suggest you talk to some of the glider repair people before doing anything irrevocable. People like Gary McKirdy or Martin Carolan would probably have a way to get in & out without buying new wing skins. Don't know if they inhabit this list, though. If you wish I can forward your query to them off-list. They are in UK so if you are elsewhere they can only offer advice - but that might be all you need! regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson PFA #16532 | 750 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:32:09 PM PST US From: JEFF ROBERTS Subject: Europa-List: Re: Tri-Gear Tire & Tube life --> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS Now that we're on PSI for Tires. What air pressure are others running in the tri-gear tires for best life? Jeff A258 Awaiting Inspection. On Jan 15, 2006, at 4:25 PM, Paul McAllister wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" > > > Hi Jim, > > I'm using a MCleary Airtrack 7/600, but inflated at 18 PSI. My first > inner > tube failure was at around 220 hours. The low pressure running caused > chafing of the tube side wall to the point where it rubbed through. > At that > time I used the same tire and just put a new tube in it. > > The second failure was at 370 hours for the same reason however I > noticed > that although I had tread left the side walls of the tire were very > weak > when compared to a new tire. For the same pressure it looked much > "flatter". I am assuming that internal structure of the tire was > fatigued > do to running it flat. > > What I am thinking of doing is to replace the tire every 200 hours and > the > tubes every 100 hours. > > Regards, Paul > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:34 PM PST US From: "Cliff Shaw" Subject: Europa-List: Wing tapes --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" All My guess is that the tapes at 45 do very little to increase the over all structure of the wing ! I say that because I know that the upper skin has no tapes on it. I think the lower skin has no tapes in front of the spar. The wing is only as strong as it weakest part. If the tapes were adding to the structure, they would also be needed on the upper skin. :) Just another way of saying the Europa is "one strong bird". Build it carefully and fly it with confidence. I am !!! Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:39 PM PST US From: "Cliff Shaw" Subject: Europa-List: Re: Tri-Gear Tire & Tube life --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" All I wish I knew ! They wear out very fast. I am on my second set. Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE ----- Original Message ----- From: JEFF ROBERTS To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 4:27 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Tri-Gear Tire & Tube life --> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS Now that we're on PSI for Tires. What air pressure are others running in the tri-gear tires for best life? Jeff A258 Awaiting Inspection. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:58:53 PM PST US From: EuropaXSA276@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing tapes Cliff < WileE> --> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com Happy New Year Cliff! Will you make it to Florida in April? Can you please elaborate about no tapes on the top skin? I installed tapes on the top skin of my wings. On another note. I see that due to a misprint, you made the cover of the Europa Mag twice in the same year! Lucky dog.. err Coyote DO NOT ARCHIVE Brian Skelly Europa XS TriGear #A276 North Texas USA You can see my build photos at: www.europaowners.org/brians ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:57 PM PST US From: Rman Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 01/14/06 --> Europa-List message posted by: Rman Would it be possible to purchase a set of closeouts, without having to buy the whole wing. Seems this would make things a whole lot easier, not having to worry about damaging the skin... Jeff - N55XS 133 hours... William Daniell wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Daniell" > > Steve and all > > Thanks for all these suggestions. > > So far not so good I'm afraid - I tried a model aircraft iron, a soldering > iron with a filed down tip, a hot knife, and a heat gun. All this on local > areas. > > All I have so far is damaged top skin and a distinct nervousness about > damage to the underneath structure. > > Prior to having a go at the skin I took the spar end guide/steel cup thing > off in a heartbeat - just applied the heat gun to it and off it came. > However the wing skin is a different story mainly I think because the fiber > glass does not conduct heat. The other interesting thing is that it appears > that the araldite does not melt - it sort of burns on the surface. This > means that the soldering iron did not go through it - which surprised me. > > I have to take a break now - business trip and will return to the battle > with renewed vigour next week end when I will write the next weeks thrilling > instalment. > > Yous, a bit depressed in Bogota > > Will > > Ps looking on the bright side lucky I realized and secondly I will have a > perfect bond when I glue the skins on again! > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of SteveD > Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 09:55 > Subject: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 01/14/06 > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "SteveD" > > Temperature is going to be the controlling factor here. The outer skin may > or may not be ruined. The inner structure you definitely don't want to over > heat. > You might want to get a Templstick for a weld supplier. The come in various > temp ranges. You draw on the part with it like a crayon and when the part > hits the templsticks temp it melts. > This would give you precise temp control of the surfaces. > > Chat Later, > Steved > > ---------------- > This Email contains Photos or Attachments located at the following link: > http://www.europaowners.org/viewtopic.php?p=9287#9287 > > ---------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:55 PM PST US From: SPurpura@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Monowheel Tire & Tube life --> Europa-List message posted by: SPurpura@aol.com I KEEP 22 - 24 PSI IN THE AIRHAWK TIRE, NOW OVER 360 HRS & NO PROBLEM. SAM N77EU ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:14:31 PM PST US From: Rman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Tri-Gear Tire & Tube life --> Europa-List message posted by: Rman Jeff, I run 30psi all the way around. No problems, other than the typical outside tire wear, due to the camber of the mains. I reversed the main tires on the wheels at the 100 hour check and hope to get another 100 out of them. Now that I'm based on grass, maybe they'll last a bit longer. Think I'll try the Michelins, next time... Get Gold Rush in the air, so you can make our May fly-in... ;) Jeff - N55XS 133 hours JEFF ROBERTS wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS > > Now that we're on PSI for Tires. What air pressure are others running > in the tri-gear tires for best life? > Jeff > A258 > Awaiting Inspection. > > > On Jan 15, 2006, at 4:25 PM, Paul McAllister wrote: > > >>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" >> >> >>Hi Jim, >> >>I'm using a MCleary Airtrack 7/600, but inflated at 18 PSI. My first >>inner >>tube failure was at around 220 hours. The low pressure running caused >>chafing of the tube side wall to the point where it rubbed through. >>At that >>time I used the same tire and just put a new tube in it. >> >>The second failure was at 370 hours for the same reason however I >>noticed >>that although I had tread left the side walls of the tire were very >>weak >>when compared to a new tire. For the same pressure it looked much >>"flatter". I am assuming that internal structure of the tire was >>fatigued >>do to running it flat. >> >>What I am thinking of doing is to replace the tire every 200 hours and >>the >>tubes every 100 hours. >> >>Regards, Paul >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:00 PM PST US From: David Glauser Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing skin separation HELP --> Europa-List message posted by: David Glauser I had a similar problem after closing my wings. In my case, the plys were in the correct orientation but there were some gaps between the rear closeout and both the base and the top. (I found these with the aid of a small TV camera on the end of a stick, run through panels cut un the wings.) After consultation with Kim Prout, I cut access panels out of the wing and did the repairs through the holes. Then I closed the holes using the usual techniques - add a large flange around the hole that overlaps well onto the wing (inside), then use the cut-out piece of wing as a closeout panel after applying reinforcement to it too. dg On 1/15/06, Rowland Carson wrote: > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson > > At 2006-01-14 18:35 -0500 William Daniell wrote: > > >I am currently trying to heat up the skins to loosen the Araldite but I > am > >getting the distinct feeling that I will end up without useful skins and > >with damage to the underneath structure > > Will - I suggest you talk to some of the glider repair people before > doing anything irrevocable. People like Gary McKirdy or Martin > Carolan would probably have a way to get in & out without buying new > wing skins. Don't know if they inhabit this list, though. If you wish > I can forward your query to them off-list. They are in UK so if you > are elsewhere they can only offer advice - but that might be all you > need! > > regards > > Rowland > -- > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:57:44 PM PST US From: "Cliff Shaw" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing tapes Cliff < WileE> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" Florida I don't know :) Some things I can't explain. Tapes I guess I did do those up-side-down ones along the spar. (must be getting forgetful) I still think two layer of bid at 0/90 is good- to-go. (not the best though, could be better) Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE ----- Original Message ----- From: EuropaXSA276@aol.com To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 5:58 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing tapes Cliff < WileE> --> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com Happy New Year Cliff! Will you make it to Florida in April? Can you please elaborate about no tapes on the top skin? I installed tapes on the top skin of my wings. On another note. I see that due to a misprint, you made the cover of the Europa Mag twice in the same year! Lucky dog.. err Coyote DO NOT ARCHIVE Brian Skelly Europa XS TriGear #A276 North Texas USA You can see my build photos at: www.europaowners.org/brians ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:05 PM PST US From: "David DeFord" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Wing skin separation HELP --> Europa-List message posted by: "David DeFord" William, I think the best heat source for separating the Araldite skin joints is a flat silicone heat blanket, perhaps an inch wide by a foot or two long (see www.mcmaster.com, part number 35765K154 for an example of what I am talking about). A fiberglass tape heater or Kapton heater would work also. With a contact heater, you can keep the heater temperature just slightly above the desired temperature of the joint, leaving it there for a few minutes, until the Araldite has softened. The hot air from a heat gun must be much hotter than the ultimate temperature of the joint, and it will rapidly overheat the thin fiberglass/foam sandwich adjacent to the solid fiberglass/epoxy joint, probably damaging it before the joint can get up to temperature. When the Araldite has softened, it should be possible to slide a putty knife between the skin and the rib or spar. The best place to start is at a corner. The good news (in my experience) is that the glass transition temperature of the Araldite is lower than that of the laminating resin, so the joint should soften before the skin delaminates. For best control of the heating rate, run the heater from a variable autotransformer (Variac) or a lamp dimmer. Putting a thermocouple between the heater and the skin lets you know how the heating is progressing. While I have not tried to separate fiberglass joints this way, I have used this heating setup to deform the upper "shelf" portion of the fuel tank, as it was interfering with the wing spar, and preventing rigging of the wings (a problem with the early XS construction manuals). The temperature range between hard (too cold) and runny (too hot) for the plastic tank is narrow enough to require fairly delicate temperature control. Good luck! Dave DeFord N135TD (XS monowheel)