Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:13 AM - Re: Oil Thermostat (Nigel Graham)
2. 06:27 AM - Engine Preheaters (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com)
3. 07:01 AM - Re: Pre-heating a Rotax? (josok)
4. 07:43 AM - Re: Oil Thermostat (R.C.Harrison)
5. 09:21 AM - Re: Oil Thermostat (Nigel Graham)
6. 10:05 AM - Oil Thermostat (Richard Holder)
7. 10:21 AM - Re: Oil Thermostat (josok)
8. 10:55 AM - Re: Re: Oil Thermostat (Richard Holder)
9. 01:18 PM - Re: Re: Oil Thermostat (R.C.Harrison)
10. 02:55 PM - Question for Rotax Drivers... (D Wysong)
11. 02:55 PM - Oil thermostat - off the thread (Fergus Kyle)
12. 02:56 PM - Re: Re: Oil Thermostat (Duncan McFadyean)
13. 03:13 PM - Cold starting problems (Peter Rees)
14. 03:20 PM - Re: Question for Rotax Drivers... (Bill Henderson)
15. 03:22 PM - Re: Re: Oil Thermostat (Gilles Thesee)
16. 03:26 PM - Classics with Skydrive (Troy Maynor)
17. 03:27 PM - Re: Oil Thermostat (Pete Lawless)
18. 03:46 PM - Re: Oil Thermostat (Duncan McFadyean)
19. 03:51 PM - Re: Question for Rotax Drivers... (D Wysong)
20. 04:01 PM - Re: Oil Thermostat (Duncan McFadyean)
21. 04:05 PM - Re: Oil Thermostat (Mike Parkin)
22. 04:12 PM - Re: Oil Thermostat (Mike Parkin)
23. 04:21 PM - Re: Re: Oil Thermostat (R.C.Harrison)
24. 05:11 PM - Re: Cold starting problems (Paul McAllister)
25. 05:36 PM - Re: Pre-heating a Rotax? (Jim Butcher)
26. 05:39 PM - Tech Topics (Jim Butcher)
27. 05:48 PM - Re: Classics with Skydrive (Tim Ward)
28. 07:40 PM - Re: Question for Rotax Drivers... (Dean Seitz)
29. 07:40 PM - Re: Pre-heating a Rotax? (josok)
30. 08:00 PM - Re: Question for Rotax Drivers... (D Wysong)
31. 11:06 PM - Re: Oil Thermostat (R.C.Harrison)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Thermostat |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Nigel Graham" <nigel_graham@btclick.com>
Wax thermostats used in cars were notorious for failing closed (overheating
the engine) since the wax capsule would split and the wax escape. It was the
bi-metallic thermostats that failed safe.
I have no idea how this oil 'stat fails but would guess closed.
Nigel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:15 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil Thermostat
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean"
<ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
More often in the open position, AFAIK.
Cars with failed thermostats tend to run cold, rather than the reverse.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:53 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil Thermostat
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Parkin"
> <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
>
> Duncan,
>
> If the waxstat fails does it fail open, closed or in the position where it
> failed.
>
> regards,
>
> MP
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:43 PM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil Thermostat
>
>
>> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean"
>> <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
>>
>> Yes they do (i.e. open very rapidly within a few degrees) around the
>> temperature that they are 'rated' for, and close less rapidly. If you try
>> it
>> in water you'll see what I mean; an element rated at 80 will be doing
>> next
>> to nothing at around 78, then be fully open by about 82.
>> Having to dig deep in memory for this one!
>> If the temperature at any time exceeds 140 C then the wax element is
>> permanently destroyed.
>>
>> Duncan McF.
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Engine Preheaters |
--> Europa-List message posted by: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
In a message dated 1/24/2006 2:59:50 AM Eastern Standard Time,
europa-list-digest@matronics.com writes:
> I am using a Bob Reiff preheater. It has a patch on the block and a band
> that goes around the oil tank. The heater on the oil tank has a thermostat
> on it. With what I know now I think I would have just bought a couple of
> heater pads from JC Whitney and made up a thermostat myself. I would have
> cost me $90.00 instead of $200 some dollars.
>
> I've installed a 200w pad from JC Whitney on my Jabiru. It was about $50, I
> think. It is almost identical to the EZ Heat pad installed on my Pawnee and
> Citabria that cost about $300 each. Such is the cost of an STC.....
Haven't run the Jab yet, but I can tell you the heaters on my Citabria and
Pawnee make a huge difference in engine start up in the winter.
>
> Regards,
>
> John Lawton
> Dunlap, TN
> A-245 (Cowls primed, wet sanding today. White paint to follow shortly.
> Getting dangerously close to seeing daylight under the wheels.....)
Message 3
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| Subject: | RE: Pre-heating a Rotax? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
Stefan Ingemarsson sent mea couple of pictures a few days ago, he told me these
hairdryers are about 8 Euros a piece, and heat the engine in about 10 minutes,
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
----------------
This Email contains Photos or Attachments located at the following link:
http://www.europaowners.org/viewtopic.php?p=9404#9404
----------------
Message 4
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Hi! Nigel
I've been keeping "schtumn" because I'm not a Rotax Buff. BUT.... this
thermostat idea on oil systems gives me the creeps what if ......!
Much better to focus on a pilot control facility like metering the oil
to the cooler by pilot controlled valve. I know this is something else
to constantly do but you should be always "heads up " on P's and T's
anyway.
I have a system of P1 controlled oil to cooler metered or even off
completely and the engine still gets full flow supply at all settings.
I rarely need to engage the cooler but I have an all air cooled engine.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI Jabiru 3300
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nigel
Graham
Sent: 24 January 2006 09:11
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil Thermostat
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Nigel Graham"
<nigel_graham@btclick.com>
Wax thermostats used in cars were notorious for failing closed
(overheating
the engine) since the wax capsule would split and the wax escape. It was
the
bi-metallic thermostats that failed safe.
I have no idea how this oil 'stat fails but would guess closed.
Nigel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:15 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil Thermostat
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean"
<ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
More often in the open position, AFAIK.
Cars with failed thermostats tend to run cold, rather than the reverse.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:53 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil Thermostat
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Parkin"
> <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
>
> Duncan,
>
> If the waxstat fails does it fail open, closed or in the position
where it
> failed.
>
> regards,
>
> MP
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:43 PM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil Thermostat
>
>
>> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean"
>> <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
>>
>> Yes they do (i.e. open very rapidly within a few degrees) around the
>> temperature that they are 'rated' for, and close less rapidly. If you
try
>> it
>> in water you'll see what I mean; an element rated at 80 will be doing
>> next
>> to nothing at around 78, then be fully open by about 82.
>> Having to dig deep in memory for this one!
>> If the temperature at any time exceeds 140 C then the wax element is
>> permanently destroyed.
>>
>> Duncan McF.
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Thermostat |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Nigel Graham" <nigel_graham@btclick.com>
Hi Bob,
I was watching this thread with interest. The thought of a thermostat on an
oil system that relies entirely on crankcase pressure for the return (912/4)
scares the willies out of me too!
As I understrand it, the Rotax oil thermostat by-passes the radiator but
maintains circulation, unlike the car water system that stops (reduces) the
flow.
If I were going to control the oil temperature, I would have a
temperature-transducer controlled vane adjusting the airflow through the
radiator - not the oil........much less risky.
Sounds like a mission for Mark Burton (should he choose to accept)!
Nigel
----- Original Message -----
From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 3:41 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Oil Thermostat
--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Hi! Nigel
I've been keeping "schtumn" because I'm not a Rotax Buff. BUT.... this
thermostat idea on oil systems gives me the creeps what if ......!
Much better to focus on a pilot control facility like metering the oil
to the cooler by pilot controlled valve. I know this is something else
to constantly do but you should be always "heads up " on P's and T's
anyway.
I have a system of P1 controlled oil to cooler metered or even off
completely and the engine still gets full flow supply at all settings.
I rarely need to engage the cooler but I have an all air cooled engine.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI Jabiru 3300
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nigel
Graham
Sent: 24 January 2006 09:11
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil Thermostat
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Nigel Graham"
<nigel_graham@btclick.com>
Wax thermostats used in cars were notorious for failing closed
(overheating
the engine) since the wax capsule would split and the wax escape. It was
the
bi-metallic thermostats that failed safe.
I have no idea how this oil 'stat fails but would guess closed.
Nigel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:15 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil Thermostat
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean"
<ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
More often in the open position, AFAIK.
Cars with failed thermostats tend to run cold, rather than the reverse.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:53 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil Thermostat
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Parkin"
> <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
>
> Duncan,
>
> If the waxstat fails does it fail open, closed or in the position
where it
> failed.
>
> regards,
>
> MP
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:43 PM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil Thermostat
>
>
>> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean"
>> <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
>>
>> Yes they do (i.e. open very rapidly within a few degrees) around the
>> temperature that they are 'rated' for, and close less rapidly. If you
try
>> it
>> in water you'll see what I mean; an element rated at 80 will be doing
>> next
>> to nothing at around 78, then be fully open by about 82.
>> Having to dig deep in memory for this one!
>> If the temperature at any time exceeds 140 C then the wax element is
>> permanently destroyed.
>>
>> Duncan McF.
>
>
Message 6
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
Hi team
I am reporting back after further investigation.
To Nigel Graham, the crankcase pressure does return the
oil to the oil tank. Wierd but it does work. However the
oil cooler is NOT in that return. The oil cooler is
between the oil tank and the oil pump, which SUCKS from
the tank, through the cooler. The oil thermostat provides
a by-pass of the cooler - and indeed as the cooler
provides significant restriction to the sucking the
by-pass might well provide MORE oil to the pump. If the
thermostat failed closed then there would be plenty of
oil, but it would get hot rapidly.
I reported on Sunday about my experience. My oil went to
95 in a climb to 2500 feet and then down to 60 in the
cruise on a very cold (2 C) day. Neither was what I was
expecting and so today I ripped the thermostat out,
dropping only a small amount of oil on the hanger floor :-)
I checked the installation and I was happy I had done it
right.
So I brought the wax-stat home and put it in a saucepan on
the AGA. Eventually I found a Celsius thermometer and
tried it. Then I put an elastic band on it to provide a
return spring force. It worked exactly as I expected -
opening at about 73 and being fully open at 80. As per spec.
So I did some thinking, and drew it past Simon Nash who
has part-installed his. We decided that it is likely that
the sealing of the ports in the thermostat has been
compromised by the required drilling out of the ports to
10 mm. If in the hot position the disk that seals off the
by-pass doesn't quite block it off then oil will prefer to
go the by-pass route and not go via the cooler.
I have a "cunning plan" to check on this and I will report
back soon after it is installed and tested. It should
prove the problem of heating up too much in the climb. The
cruise coldness may be a by-product, but I can live with
that for now as it was a VERY cold day when I test flew
it, and I had no baffles whatsoever on the radiators.
In the mean-time - I would recommend anyone who has bought
one of these thermostats to avoid drilling out the ports
until I report back. Or if you have done two ports then
DON'T do the other two.
Another lateral thought - does anyone know if oil coolers
ever have a required direction of flow ?
Richard Holder, who can envisage installation, and then a
further removal and re-installation. In the brrrrrrrr cold !
G-OWWW, High Cross
Message 7
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| Subject: | RE: Oil Thermostat |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
Hi Nigel, Bob,
OA, the German Rotax dealer has as a Rotax addon an oil thermostat available. This
is a thermostat with 4 ! connections, and only changes the oil flow through
the radiator or direct. So, if this thermostat is closed, the oil pressure does
not even have to deal with the resistance of the radiator. If this thermostat
would hang closed, you would notice a rise in oil temperature, if it stays
open, oil would not reach a sufficient temperature. IMHO, a manual operated
flap or anything that adds to (this new-by) pilot workload is more error-prone.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
----------------
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Oil Thermostat |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
josok wrote:
> Hi Nigel, Bob,
> OA, the German Rotax dealer has as a Rotax addon an oil
> thermostat available. This is a thermostat with 4 !
> connections, and only changes the oil flow through the
> radiator or direct. So, if this thermostat is closed,
> the oil pressure does not even have to deal with the
> resistance of the radiator. If this thermostat would
> hang closed, you would notice a rise in oil
> temperature, if it stays open, oil would not reach a
> sufficient temperature. IMHO, a manual operated flap
> or anything that adds to (this new-by) pilot workload
> is more error-prone.
> Regards,
>
> Jos Okhuijsen
Is that OA the dealer ? I thought the dealer was
Franz-aircraft, who do indeed have an oil thermostat. Not
approved here, but it works in exactly the same way as the
one that is approved.
They also have a water thermostat and we have no
equivalent of that approved ;-(
By the way - the oil going through the oil cooler (and the
thermostat) is not under pressure, it is being SUCKED into
the engine from the tank by the oil pump. Do not put the
oil cooler in the oil line between the sump and the oil tank.
Richard
Message 9
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| Subject: | RE: Oil Thermostat |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Ok Jos thanks for that, However what if the cooler breaks and you start
loosing oil (I had that problem but only on a half hour flight!) With
mine the cooler is in circuit only a miniscule period of time so a leak
would be kept to the absolute minimum when you landed you'd get to
notice before the "donkey" packed up aloft !
I've just seen Richards message as to where the cooler on the Rotax is
situated so similar may apply except it would be pulling air in ......
don't you believe it IMHO oil would still p.... out !
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of josok
Sent: 24 January 2006 18:20
Subject: Europa-List: RE: Oil Thermostat
--> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
Hi Nigel, Bob,
OA, the German Rotax dealer has as a Rotax addon an oil thermostat
available. This is a thermostat with 4 ! connections, and only changes
the oil flow through the radiator or direct. So, if this thermostat is
closed, the oil pressure does not even have to deal with the resistance
of the radiator. If this thermostat would hang closed, you would notice
a rise in oil temperature, if it stays open, oil would not reach a
sufficient temperature. IMHO, a manual operated flap or anything that
adds to (this new-by) pilot workload is more error-prone.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
----------------
Message 10
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| Subject: | Question for Rotax Drivers... |
--> Europa-List message posted by: D Wysong <hdwysong@gmail.com>
Hi all,
The Rotax wiring diagram shows the Ducati regulator/rectifier with the
"L" lead across a lamp. The connector says "LAMP"... but when exactly
will this lamp illuminate?
Can someone tell me or point out the section(s) in any of the Rotax
manual(s) that describes the function(s) this lamp serves?
Undervoltage? Fault? Overvoltage? ???
Specifically, I'm looking for the "nominal" electrical state of the "L"
lead (e.g. - pulled high, pulled low, open) when:
-- the 12V bus hot and the engine is not running
-- the 12V bus hot and the engine is running
Thanks for your help,
D
Message 11
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| Subject: | Oil thermostat - off the thread |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
I"ve been following the thread (914 here) and following the yes-buts with
interest. Back in the bad old days, the T6 harvard had an oil cooler thermo
bypass. We were told it allowed the cold oil to bypass the fine core of the
cooler (it was COLD on the prairies) in order not to congeal and blow the
cores. The threat was called 'coring', and woe betide the cadet who forgot
to select "bypass".Then when she warmed up, one pushed the knob in and went
burbling down the taxiway.
At least I think that's how it went.
ferg
PS The fine was a week's worth of carrying a P&W Wasp R1340 cylinder by the
exhaust pipe - in the left hand in order to be able to salute. It started
out weighing several pounds on Monday - by Sunday one had a huge bicep - I'm
told.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Oil Thermostat |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Bob,
The recent problems with leaking joints on the Rotax-supplied oil coolers
(MPD issued by PFA) resulted in air leaking in and loss of oil-circuit
priming, not oil leaking out.
Before you you respond (!), don't forget that Jab's (particularly the less
smoothly running 2200) have suffered numerous oil cooler circuit failures on
a number of aircraft types (Rans S6 and Renegade to name two).
This is has a lot to do with the oil cooling circuit running at full system
pressure.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 9:16 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: Oil Thermostat
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
>
>
> Ok Jos thanks for that, However what if the cooler breaks and you start
> loosing oil (I had that problem but only on a half hour flight!) With
> mine the cooler is in circuit only a miniscule period of time so a leak
> would be kept to the absolute minimum when you landed you'd get to
> notice before the "donkey" packed up aloft !
>
> I've just seen Richards message as to where the cooler on the Rotax is
> situated so similar may apply except it would be pulling air in ......
> don't you believe it IMHO oil would still p.... out !
> Regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of josok
> Sent: 24 January 2006 18:20
> Subject: Europa-List: RE: Oil Thermostat
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
>
> Hi Nigel, Bob,
>
> OA, the German Rotax dealer has as a Rotax addon an oil thermostat
> available. This is a thermostat with 4 ! connections, and only changes
> the oil flow through the radiator or direct. So, if this thermostat is
> closed, the oil pressure does not even have to deal with the resistance
> of the radiator. If this thermostat would hang closed, you would notice
> a rise in oil temperature, if it stays open, oil would not reach a
> sufficient temperature. IMHO, a manual operated flap or anything that
> adds to (this new-by) pilot workload is more error-prone.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jos Okhuijsen
> ----------------
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Cold starting problems |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees" <peter.rees01@tiscali.co.uk>
We are still having tremendous problems getting HI started in the cold.
We've replaced the battery but the engine still shakes violently when
cranked and seems to run in whats been described as 'sub idle' before we
execute a somewhat rapid shut down.
Once it has started, it runs very nicely - never missing a beat and it
starts very well indeed when warm - on the button every time.
Trawling the archive gives me the very strong impression that our sprag
clutch is due for the bin but I'd rathter get someone familiar with Rotax
starting problems before changing such an expensive part (or getting it done
more like!) and finding out that its one of the carbs!
Can anyone tell me - is it possible to remove the starter without taking the
engine out in a 912 classic?
Conrad seems to be pretty well booked up at present - has anyone used Adrian
Lloyd? If so (and he is any good) - does anyone have a contact number for
him (or anyone else that can be recommended).
Really need to get this sorted before the starter or engine frame quits.
Thanks in anticipation
Peter
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Question for Rotax Drivers... |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Bill Henderson" <europabill@bellsouth.net>
Check out pages 17-1 and 17-2 of the Rotax 912S Installation Manual (Mine is
the 9/1/1998 version). It shows the wiring of the Rotax electrical system.
The lamp is a charge indicator lamp. It's notated as item #11.
Bill
A010 Monowheel Classic
----- Original Message -----
From: "D Wysong" <hdwysong@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:56 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Question for Rotax Drivers...
> --> Europa-List message posted by: D Wysong <hdwysong@gmail.com>
>
> Hi all,
>
> The Rotax wiring diagram shows the Ducati regulator/rectifier with the
> "L" lead across a lamp. The connector says "LAMP"... but when exactly
> will this lamp illuminate?
>
> Can someone tell me or point out the section(s) in any of the Rotax
> manual(s) that describes the function(s) this lamp serves?
>
> Undervoltage? Fault? Overvoltage? ???
>
> Specifically, I'm looking for the "nominal" electrical state of the "L"
> lead (e.g. - pulled high, pulled low, open) when:
> -- the 12V bus hot and the engine is not running
> -- the 12V bus hot and the engine is running
>
> Thanks for your help,
>
> D
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Oil Thermostat |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
> If this thermostat would hang closed, you would notice a rise in oil temperature,
if it stays open, oil would not reach a sufficient temperature. IMHO, a
manual operated flap or anything that adds to (this new-by) pilot workload is
more error-prone.
>
>
>
Hi all,
Although the following doesn't apply to a Europa, it may be of interest
regarding Rotax 914 setups.
In our project, we decided to make a cowling from scratch, and I had the
opportunity to design a radiator duct with cowl flaps. A short summary
of the design principle can be viewed on my "wind tunnel" web pages.
The airplane has been flight tested from -14C to +37C with perfect
ease of temperature adjustment. Operating the cowl flap is a breeze, and
you always have a few minutes to adjust temperatures to your taste
within 5C of target.
We had considered using a thermostat, but whereas it solves the
temperature issue, the drag is always high. On the other hand, drag
decreases when you close the flap.
Besides, if the thermostat fails in the by-pass position, the
temperature rise will be fast and very harmful to the engine.
From the messages about blocking the radiators, or adding thermostat to
cowl flaps, I have the feeling that the cooling of Europas could benefit
from this little research work.
FWIW,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 16
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| Subject: | Classics with Skydrive |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Troy Maynor" <wingnut54@charter.net>
"Justin Kennedy" <Justin@systemwise.co.uk> wrote:
<<<Our Rotax 912S also has a Skydrive carb heater so I was interested to
hear his take on the
subject. His rule of thumb was to cruise at 90-100 degrees CHT and
100-110 degrees Oil Temp.>>>>
Hi Justin,
As a side issue, did you have any problem with the Skydrive heater causing
the carbs to sit too far aft. I have a Classic cowl and engine mount and
wish to install the Skydrive heaters as well. I have the cold air induction
mod with the rectangular filter box. The filter box is not very far from the
firewall now. If I add the skydrive carb heat mod will I have enough room? I
don't want the air filter box to be hitting the firewall when the engine
shakes during start and shut down. Do you or anyone else see a problem here?
Thanks to all.
Troy Maynor
N120EU Europa Monowheel Classic
Left to finish:
Paint,interior,engine install, wiring.
Weaverville, NC USA
Message 17
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Pete Lawless" <pete@lawless.info>
Evening All
Think Automotive sent me a drawing of the oil stat with some hand
written annotations. As well as the temperature figures they clearly
marked flow from and to the engine and flow to and from the oil cooler.
On the diagram if you hold the stat so that the 2 screws that hold it
together have their heads at the top, then turn it so that the higher
pipe it to the right. Now the right hand pipes are engine and the left
had pair the cooler. Looking at the diagram the other way round would
have oil pressure pushing up the diaphragm and potentially opening the
stat. I will send a TIF of the diagram off forum.
Regards
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Holder
Sent: 24 January 2006 18:04
Subject: Europa-List: Oil Thermostat
--> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
Hi team
I am reporting back after further investigation.
To Nigel Graham, the crankcase pressure does return the
oil to the oil tank. Wierd but it does work. However the
oil cooler is NOT in that return. The oil cooler is
between the oil tank and the oil pump, which SUCKS from
the tank, through the cooler. The oil thermostat provides
a by-pass of the cooler - and indeed as the cooler
provides significant restriction to the sucking the
by-pass might well provide MORE oil to the pump. If the
thermostat failed closed then there would be plenty of
oil, but it would get hot rapidly.
I reported on Sunday about my experience. My oil went to
95 in a climb to 2500 feet and then down to 60 in the
cruise on a very cold (2 C) day. Neither was what I was
expecting and so today I ripped the thermostat out,
dropping only a small amount of oil on the hanger floor :-)
I checked the installation and I was happy I had done it
right.
So I brought the wax-stat home and put it in a saucepan on
the AGA. Eventually I found a Celsius thermometer and
tried it. Then I put an elastic band on it to provide a
return spring force. It worked exactly as I expected -
opening at about 73 and being fully open at 80. As per spec.
So I did some thinking, and drew it past Simon Nash who
has part-installed his. We decided that it is likely that
the sealing of the ports in the thermostat has been
compromised by the required drilling out of the ports to
10 mm. If in the hot position the disk that seals off the
by-pass doesn't quite block it off then oil will prefer to
go the by-pass route and not go via the cooler.
I have a "cunning plan" to check on this and I will report
back soon after it is installed and tested. It should
prove the problem of heating up too much in the climb. The
cruise coldness may be a by-product, but I can live with
that for now as it was a VERY cold day when I test flew
it, and I had no baffles whatsoever on the radiators.
In the mean-time - I would recommend anyone who has bought
one of these thermostats to avoid drilling out the ports
until I report back. Or if you have done two ports then
DON'T do the other two.
Another lateral thought - does anyone know if oil coolers
ever have a required direction of flow ?
Richard Holder, who can envisage installation, and then a
further removal and re-installation. In the brrrrrrrr cold !
G-OWWW, High Cross
--
20/01/2006
--
20/01/2006
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Thermostat |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
The heated and expanded wax causes the thermostat to open against spring
pressure. As the wax cools, the valve is closed by the spring pressure, not
"suction" of contracting wax, which would probably cavitate anyway.
As such, when the wax is lost there is nothing to push the valve open and
the spring returns it to the closed position, so failing in that position.
I agree that the older mechanical versions fail closed.
The Mocal version of oil thermostat bypasses the cooler when "closed".
Duncan McF
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nigel Graham" <nigel_graham@btclick.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil Thermostat
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Nigel Graham"
> <nigel_graham@btclick.com>
>
> Wax thermostats used in cars were notorious for failing closed
> (overheating
> the engine) since the wax capsule would split and the wax escape. It was
> the
> bi-metallic thermostats that failed safe.
>
> I have no idea how this oil 'stat fails but would guess closed.
>
> Nigel
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:15 PM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil Thermostat
>
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean"
> <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
>
> More often in the open position, AFAIK.
> Cars with failed thermostats tend to run cold, rather than the reverse.
>
> Duncan McF.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:53 PM
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil Thermostat
>
>
>> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Parkin"
>> <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
>>
>> Duncan,
>>
>> If the waxstat fails does it fail open, closed or in the position where
>> it
>> failed.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> MP
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
>> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil Thermostat
>>
>>
>>> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean"
>>> <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
>>>
>>> Yes they do (i.e. open very rapidly within a few degrees) around the
>>> temperature that they are 'rated' for, and close less rapidly. If you
>>> try
>>> it
>>> in water you'll see what I mean; an element rated at 80 will be doing
>>> next
>>> to nothing at around 78, then be fully open by about 82.
>>> Having to dig deep in memory for this one!
>>> If the temperature at any time exceeds 140 C then the wax element is
>>> permanently destroyed.
>>>
>>> Duncan McF.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Question for Rotax Drivers... |
--> Europa-List message posted by: D Wysong <hdwysong@gmail.com>
Thanks Bill.
"Charge indicator"... so the lamp will be illuminated ("L" looks like a
ground) under normal conditions? Has anyone wired this lamp as shown to
verify that it's on... all the time? (how annoying would that be, eh?!)
If not, is anyone willing to measure the voltage between "L" and ground
the next time their prop is turning?
Thanks,
D
---------------
Bill Henderson wrote:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bill Henderson" <europabill@bellsouth.net>
>
> Check out pages 17-1 and 17-2 of the Rotax 912S Installation Manual (Mine is
> the 9/1/1998 version). It shows the wiring of the Rotax electrical system.
> The lamp is a charge indicator lamp. It's notated as item #11.
>
> Bill
> A010 Monowheel Classic
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "D Wysong" <hdwysong@gmail.com>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:56 PM
> Subject: Europa-List: Question for Rotax Drivers...
>
>
>
>>--> Europa-List message posted by: D Wysong <hdwysong@gmail.com>
>>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>The Rotax wiring diagram shows the Ducati regulator/rectifier with the
>>"L" lead across a lamp. The connector says "LAMP"... but when exactly
>>will this lamp illuminate?
>>
>>Can someone tell me or point out the section(s) in any of the Rotax
>>manual(s) that describes the function(s) this lamp serves?
>>
>>Undervoltage? Fault? Overvoltage? ???
>>
>>Specifically, I'm looking for the "nominal" electrical state of the "L"
>>lead (e.g. - pulled high, pulled low, open) when:
>>-- the 12V bus hot and the engine is not running
>>-- the 12V bus hot and the engine is running
>>
>>Thanks for your help,
>>
>>D
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Thermostat |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
You can find that diagram at
http://www.xse.com/leres/ss/images/mocal2.pdf
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete Lawless" <pete@lawless.info>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 11:07 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Oil Thermostat
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Pete Lawless" <pete@lawless.info>
>
> Evening All
>
> Think Automotive sent me a drawing of the oil stat with some hand
> written annotations. As well as the temperature figures they clearly
> marked flow from and to the engine and flow to and from the oil cooler.
> On the diagram if you hold the stat so that the 2 screws that hold it
> together have their heads at the top, then turn it so that the higher
> pipe it to the right. Now the right hand pipes are engine and the left
> had pair the cooler. Looking at the diagram the other way round would
> have oil pressure pushing up the diaphragm and potentially opening the
> stat. I will send a TIF of the diagram off forum.
>
> Regards
>
> Pete
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> 20/01/2006
>
>
> --
> 20/01/2006
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Thermostat |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
Dear Richard, (and all)
Thanks for the information, I am watching with interest to see how you get
on. I have applied to the PFA for the Mod details so that I can fit the oil
thermostat. Andy Draper did tell me that he thinks that Francis Donaldson
has done an about turn on the waxstat approval. I await developments with
anticipation.
For all those with reservations about this mod. In 40 years of motoring, I
can recall only one thermostat failure and that was a long time ago. What
are the consequences of operating an engine with a lubricant that never
reaches the optimum operating temperature. In the modern world this is a
straight forward risk assessment. (ie. the likelihood of thermostat failure
versus possible accellerated engine wear, corrosion or oil cooler matrix
rupture).
Bearing in mind that there is air and water cooling of the Rotax engine I
cannot understand why the oil temperature would soar quickly to the limits
if the oil cooler is out of circuit. If the CHT temperature is operating at
say 80degs (typical this time of year on GJULZ) in the cruise why then would
the oil temperature suddenly go out of limits. Bob Harrison said that he
rarely has to put his oil cooler in circuit. The fact that his Jabiru is
totally air cooled is irrelevant. As the Rotax is water and air cooled at
the top end, then it is feasible that the requirement for oil cooling is not
always necessary, particularly in temperate climes.
Originally, I had the oil cooler mounted directly behind the radiator. In
that configuration the oil temperature was always identical to the CHT
temperature.
Since I lowered the oil cooler to the alternative position, the oil
temperature NEVER reaches that of the CHT.
The expert engineers among our group might draw some conclusion from this.
The point I am making is that with the Thermostat in the oil circuit, it
should never inhibit the full flow of oil from the tank to the engine via
the pump. Thermostat failed or not the oil should always either bypass the
oil cooler, go totally through the oil cooler or, a combination of the 2
situations. Therefore, if it can be shown that a failure of the thermostat
that results in total bypass of the oil cooler, does not create an
unmanageble oil temperature situation then there is no reason why this
should not be an advantageous modification.
Bob H, your comment is not really valid with modern aircraft. Automation is
the name of the game. With modern systems, many performance indications are
not even presented to the pilot until a positive action/decision is actually
required by the 'human' systems supervisor.
If one can automate a system then why not - the idea is to reduce pilot
workload so that he may concentrate on flying the aircraft and not be
distracted by systems management.
I am most grateful that the wheel was invented before the birth of the
Europa - otherwise we would still be bouncing along on skids!!!
regards,
Mike.
Do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Holder" <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 6:03 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Oil Thermostat
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
>
> Hi team
>
> I am reporting back after further investigation.
>
> To Nigel Graham, the crankcase pressure does return the
> oil to the oil tank. Wierd but it does work. However the
> oil cooler is NOT in that return. The oil cooler is
> between the oil tank and the oil pump, which SUCKS from
> the tank, through the cooler. The oil thermostat provides
> a by-pass of the cooler - and indeed as the cooler
> provides significant restriction to the sucking the
> by-pass might well provide MORE oil to the pump. If the
> thermostat failed closed then there would be plenty of
> oil, but it would get hot rapidly.
>
> I reported on Sunday about my experience. My oil went to
> 95 in a climb to 2500 feet and then down to 60 in the
> cruise on a very cold (2 C) day. Neither was what I was
> expecting and so today I ripped the thermostat out,
> dropping only a small amount of oil on the hanger floor :-)
>
> I checked the installation and I was happy I had done it
> right.
>
> So I brought the wax-stat home and put it in a saucepan on
> the AGA. Eventually I found a Celsius thermometer and
> tried it. Then I put an elastic band on it to provide a
> return spring force. It worked exactly as I expected -
> opening at about 73 and being fully open at 80. As per spec.
>
> So I did some thinking, and drew it past Simon Nash who
> has part-installed his. We decided that it is likely that
> the sealing of the ports in the thermostat has been
> compromised by the required drilling out of the ports to
> 10 mm. If in the hot position the disk that seals off the
> by-pass doesn't quite block it off then oil will prefer to
> go the by-pass route and not go via the cooler.
>
> I have a "cunning plan" to check on this and I will report
> back soon after it is installed and tested. It should
> prove the problem of heating up too much in the climb. The
> cruise coldness may be a by-product, but I can live with
> that for now as it was a VERY cold day when I test flew
> it, and I had no baffles whatsoever on the radiators.
>
> In the mean-time - I would recommend anyone who has bought
> one of these thermostats to avoid drilling out the ports
> until I report back. Or if you have done two ports then
> DON'T do the other two.
>
> Another lateral thought - does anyone know if oil coolers
> ever have a required direction of flow ?
>
> Richard Holder, who can envisage installation, and then a
> further removal and re-installation. In the brrrrrrrr cold !
>
> G-OWWW, High Cross
>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Oil Thermostat |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
> The heated and expanded wax causes the thermostat to open against spring
> pressure. As the wax cools, the valve is closed by the spring pressure,
> not
> "suction" of contracting wax, which would probably cavitate anyway.
> As such, when the wax is lost there is nothing to push the valve open and
> the spring returns it to the closed position, so failing in that position.
>
> I agree that the older mechanical versions fail closed.
>
> The Mocal version of oil thermostat bypasses the cooler when "closed".
>
Forgive me Duncan, but if I follow your logic then the Mocal thermostat
would fail in the cooler bypass position - that is opposite to the ideal
failsafe position.
regards,
Mike
Message 23
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| Subject: | RE: Oil Thermostat |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Thanks Duncan.
That is precisely my point, sort of been there done that and I wouldn't
be writing this had I been on a long flight particularly over long legs
of water ! So in the established cruise since it overcools anyway I
disconnect the cooler from circuit and therefore no dramatic oil loss if
the cooler is ruptured.
I guess if then the Rotax system is pressurised when stopped the
pressure will back feed to the cooler and then leak ?
So without priming does the oil pump still fetch oil once running ?
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Duncan
McFadyean
Sent: 24 January 2006 21:48
Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: Oil Thermostat
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean"
<ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Bob,
The recent problems with leaking joints on the Rotax-supplied oil
coolers
(MPD issued by PFA) resulted in air leaking in and loss of oil-circuit
priming, not oil leaking out.
Before you you respond (!), don't forget that Jab's (particularly the
less
smoothly running 2200) have suffered numerous oil cooler circuit
failures on
a number of aircraft types (Rans S6 and Renegade to name two).
This is has a lot to do with the oil cooling circuit running at full
system
pressure.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 9:16 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: RE: Oil Thermostat
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison"
<ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
>
>
> Ok Jos thanks for that, However what if the cooler breaks and you
start
> loosing oil (I had that problem but only on a half hour flight!) With
> mine the cooler is in circuit only a miniscule period of time so a
leak
> would be kept to the absolute minimum when you landed you'd get to
> notice before the "donkey" packed up aloft !
>
> I've just seen Richards message as to where the cooler on the Rotax is
> situated so similar may apply except it would be pulling air in ......
> don't you believe it IMHO oil would still p.... out !
> Regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of josok
> Sent: 24 January 2006 18:20
> Subject: Europa-List: RE: Oil Thermostat
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
>
> Hi Nigel, Bob,
>
> OA, the German Rotax dealer has as a Rotax addon an oil thermostat
> available. This is a thermostat with 4 ! connections, and only changes
> the oil flow through the radiator or direct. So, if this thermostat is
> closed, the oil pressure does not even have to deal with the
resistance
> of the radiator. If this thermostat would hang closed, you would
notice
> a rise in oil temperature, if it stays open, oil would not reach a
> sufficient temperature. IMHO, a manual operated flap or anything that
> adds to (this new-by) pilot workload is more error-prone.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jos Okhuijsen
> ----------------
Message 24
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| Subject: | Cold starting problems |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
Peter,
Lockwood Aviation in the US recommend having the gearbox clutch adjusted
every 300 hours. I sent mine in and they replaced it, I am assuming that
there wasn't any adjustment left. It cost me about $140.00 including
freight to have the work done.
Paul
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Pre-heating a Rotax? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Butcher" <europa@triton.net>
Talked to Andy about winter operations the other day. He suggested that the
Rotax is built with tolerances similar to an automobile engine and therefore
really doesn't need preheated. After all, do you preheat your car?
Also attended an aviation conference last week where it was suggested that
pulling an engine thru scrapes the oil from the cylinders - so you're better
off not doing that. Also, heating the oil will drive moisture out and it
deposits on the engine internals. Bottom line, don't do anything to the
engine. Change the oil frequently (at least each quarter of the year).
Jim Butcher
N241BW
Message 26
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Butcher" <europa@triton.net>
The Europa website http://www.europa-aircraft.co.uk/ now has Tech Talk on it. Be sure to check it ocassionally.
Jim Butcher
N241BW
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Classics with Skydrive |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Tim Ward" <ward.t@xtra.co.nz>
Troy,
I had no problem regarding space (Monowheel Classic) for the Skydrive carb
heater.The 'cold air induction
mod' I presume is the plenum air chamber that Europa supplied. My plenum
air chamber
is right up against the firewall, not connected, but is secured to the
engine mount (part connected to the engine and not the fuselage) with a 'U'
bolt
coming up through the plenum air chamber.(Peter Davies invention) This then
vibrates with the engine if necessary)
Cheers,
Tim
Tim Ward
12 Waiwetu Street,
Fendalton,
Christchurch, 8005
New Zealand.
Ph +64 3 3515166
Mobile 021 0640221
ward.t@xtra.co.nz
----- Original Message -----
From: "Troy Maynor" <wingnut54@charter.net>
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 12:19 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Classics with Skydrive
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Troy Maynor" <wingnut54@charter.net>
>
>
> "Justin Kennedy" <Justin@systemwise.co.uk> wrote:
>
> <<<Our Rotax 912S also has a Skydrive carb heater so I was interested to
> hear his take on the
> subject. His rule of thumb was to cruise at 90-100 degrees CHT and
> 100-110 degrees Oil Temp.>>>>
>
> Hi Justin,
> As a side issue, did you have any problem with the Skydrive heater causing
> the carbs to sit too far aft. I have a Classic cowl and engine mount and
> wish to install the Skydrive heaters as well. I have the cold air
> induction
> mod with the rectangular filter box. The filter box is not very far from
> the
> firewall now. If I add the skydrive carb heat mod will I have enough room?
> I
> don't want the air filter box to be hitting the firewall when the engine
> shakes during start and shut down. Do you or anyone else see a problem
> here?
> Thanks to all.
>
> Troy Maynor
> N120EU Europa Monowheel Classic
> Left to finish:
> Paint,interior,engine install, wiring.
> Weaverville, NC USA
>
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Question for Rotax Drivers... |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Dean Seitz" <daseitz@cfl.rr.com>
The lamp is on when the master and the alt switches are on and the alt is
not charging the battery. It is on until the engine starts and begins
charging then it goes off.
Dean Seitz
N284A
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of D Wysong
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Question for Rotax Drivers...
--> Europa-List message posted by: D Wysong <hdwysong@gmail.com>
Thanks Bill.
"Charge indicator"... so the lamp will be illuminated ("L" looks like a
ground) under normal conditions? Has anyone wired this lamp as shown to
verify that it's on... all the time? (how annoying would that be, eh?!)
If not, is anyone willing to measure the voltage between "L" and ground
the next time their prop is turning?
Thanks,
D
---------------
Bill Henderson wrote:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bill Henderson"
<europabill@bellsouth.net>
>
> Check out pages 17-1 and 17-2 of the Rotax 912S Installation Manual (Mine
is
> the 9/1/1998 version). It shows the wiring of the Rotax electrical
system.
> The lamp is a charge indicator lamp. It's notated as item #11.
>
> Bill
> A010 Monowheel Classic
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "D Wysong" <hdwysong@gmail.com>
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:56 PM
> Subject: Europa-List: Question for Rotax Drivers...
>
>
>
>>--> Europa-List message posted by: D Wysong <hdwysong@gmail.com>
>>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>The Rotax wiring diagram shows the Ducati regulator/rectifier with the
>>"L" lead across a lamp. The connector says "LAMP"... but when exactly
>>will this lamp illuminate?
>>
>>Can someone tell me or point out the section(s) in any of the Rotax
>>manual(s) that describes the function(s) this lamp serves?
>>
>>Undervoltage? Fault? Overvoltage? ???
>>
>>Specifically, I'm looking for the "nominal" electrical state of the "L"
>>lead (e.g. - pulled high, pulled low, open) when:
>>-- the 12V bus hot and the engine is not running
>>-- the 12V bus hot and the engine is running
>>
>>Thanks for your help,
>>
>>D
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | RE: Pre-heating a Rotax? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
Jim, there is a difference in car or airplane engine demands. While i never heat
up my car engine, i do not push the pedal to the floor for the first 5 minutes
either. As a matter of fact, i hardly ever hit the floor. In a plane however,
that's normal practice. And then there is cold, and there is real cold. Here
you would have no chance whatsoever to start an engine without pre-heating.
And while we have pre-heaters in place for a must, they add to comfort for the
engine and passengers.
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
----------------
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Question for Rotax Drivers... |
--> Europa-List message posted by: D Wysong <hdwysong@gmail.com>
Thanks a bunch, Dean!
D
-----------------------
Dean Seitz wrote:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Dean Seitz" <daseitz@cfl.rr.com>
>
> The lamp is on when the master and the alt switches are on and the alt is
> not charging the battery. It is on until the engine starts and begins
> charging then it goes off.
>
>
> Dean Seitz
> N284A
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of D Wysong
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 6:54 PM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Question for Rotax Drivers...
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: D Wysong <hdwysong@gmail.com>
>
> Thanks Bill.
>
> "Charge indicator"... so the lamp will be illuminated ("L" looks like a
> ground) under normal conditions? Has anyone wired this lamp as shown to
> verify that it's on... all the time? (how annoying would that be, eh?!)
>
> If not, is anyone willing to measure the voltage between "L" and ground
> the next time their prop is turning?
>
> Thanks,
>
> D
>
> ---------------
> Bill Henderson wrote:
>
>>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Bill Henderson"
>
> <europabill@bellsouth.net>
>
>>Check out pages 17-1 and 17-2 of the Rotax 912S Installation Manual (Mine
>
> is
>
>>the 9/1/1998 version). It shows the wiring of the Rotax electrical
>
> system.
>
>>The lamp is a charge indicator lamp. It's notated as item #11.
>>
>>Bill
>>A010 Monowheel Classic
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "D Wysong" <hdwysong@gmail.com>
>>To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:56 PM
>>Subject: Europa-List: Question for Rotax Drivers...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>--> Europa-List message posted by: D Wysong <hdwysong@gmail.com>
>>>
>>>Hi all,
>>>
>>>The Rotax wiring diagram shows the Ducati regulator/rectifier with the
>>>"L" lead across a lamp. The connector says "LAMP"... but when exactly
>>>will this lamp illuminate?
>>>
>>>Can someone tell me or point out the section(s) in any of the Rotax
>>>manual(s) that describes the function(s) this lamp serves?
>>>
>>>Undervoltage? Fault? Overvoltage? ???
>>>
>>>Specifically, I'm looking for the "nominal" electrical state of the "L"
>>>lead (e.g. - pulled high, pulled low, open) when:
>>>-- the 12V bus hot and the engine is not running
>>>-- the 12V bus hot and the engine is running
>>>
>>>Thanks for your help,
>>>
>>>D
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 31
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Hi! Mike
Trying to answer your question on running with cold oil..... I'm
convinced that caused my engine to need new rings at 450 hours (but
being a Jabiru!!!)
I hope to be able to confirm this when I do my annual leak down tests in
April and compare them with the pre- ring change figures and the
knackered ring figures.
I am hopeful that this is correct since hand propping indicates some
good compressions still but that may also be down to my choice of oil
too.
But to look at the logic I'm not aware of oil circulation being used to
cool an engine so in most applications except the old side valve types
the oil is generally in the hottest places, pistons cylinder heads and
rocker boxes etc. so therefore you would expect it to be designed to be
in its best lubrication quality at the high temperatures especially so
when it's viscosity is least to throw up into the bores.
The exception to this I think is around the turbo when it is bad news to
stop the engine without a short cooling off period for the turbo.
Regards
Bob H G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru3300
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin
Sent: 25 January 2006 00:05
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oil Thermostat
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Parkin"
<mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
Dear Richard, (and all)
Thanks for the information, I am watching with interest to see how you
get
on. I have applied to the PFA for the Mod details so that I can fit the
oil
thermostat. Andy Draper did tell me that he thinks that Francis
Donaldson
has done an about turn on the waxstat approval. I await developments
with
anticipation.
For all those with reservations about this mod. In 40 years of
motoring, I
can recall only one thermostat failure and that was a long time ago.
What
are the consequences of operating an engine with a lubricant that never
reaches the optimum operating temperature. In the modern world this is
a
straight forward risk assessment. (ie. the likelihood of thermostat
failure
versus possible accellerated engine wear, corrosion or oil cooler matrix
rupture).
Bearing in mind that there is air and water cooling of the Rotax engine
I
cannot understand why the oil temperature would soar quickly to the
limits
if the oil cooler is out of circuit. If the CHT temperature is
operating at
say 80degs (typical this time of year on GJULZ) in the cruise why then
would
the oil temperature suddenly go out of limits. Bob Harrison said that
he
rarely has to put his oil cooler in circuit. The fact that his Jabiru
is
totally air cooled is irrelevant. As the Rotax is water and air cooled
at
the top end, then it is feasible that the requirement for oil cooling is
not
always necessary, particularly in temperate climes.
Originally, I had the oil cooler mounted directly behind the radiator.
In
that configuration the oil temperature was always identical to the CHT
temperature.
Since I lowered the oil cooler to the alternative position, the oil
temperature NEVER reaches that of the CHT.
The expert engineers among our group might draw some conclusion from
this.
The point I am making is that with the Thermostat in the oil circuit, it
should never inhibit the full flow of oil from the tank to the engine
via
the pump. Thermostat failed or not the oil should always either bypass
the
oil cooler, go totally through the oil cooler or, a combination of the 2
situations. Therefore, if it can be shown that a failure of the
thermostat
that results in total bypass of the oil cooler, does not create an
unmanageble oil temperature situation then there is no reason why this
should not be an advantageous modification.
Bob H, your comment is not really valid with modern aircraft.
Automation is
the name of the game. With modern systems, many performance indications
are
not even presented to the pilot until a positive action/decision is
actually
required by the 'human' systems supervisor.
If one can automate a system then why not - the idea is to reduce pilot
workload so that he may concentrate on flying the aircraft and not be
distracted by systems management.
I am most grateful that the wheel was invented before the birth of the
Europa - otherwise we would still be bouncing along on skids!!!
regards,
Mike.
Do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Holder" <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 6:03 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Oil Thermostat
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder
<rholder@avnet.co.uk>
>
> Hi team
>
> I am reporting back after further investigation.
>
> To Nigel Graham, the crankcase pressure does return the
> oil to the oil tank. Wierd but it does work. However the
> oil cooler is NOT in that return. The oil cooler is
> between the oil tank and the oil pump, which SUCKS from
> the tank, through the cooler. The oil thermostat provides
> a by-pass of the cooler - and indeed as the cooler
> provides significant restriction to the sucking the
> by-pass might well provide MORE oil to the pump. If the
> thermostat failed closed then there would be plenty of
> oil, but it would get hot rapidly.
>
> I reported on Sunday about my experience. My oil went to
> 95 in a climb to 2500 feet and then down to 60 in the
> cruise on a very cold (2 C) day. Neither was what I was
> expecting and so today I ripped the thermostat out,
> dropping only a small amount of oil on the hanger floor :-)
>
> I checked the installation and I was happy I had done it
> right.
>
> So I brought the wax-stat home and put it in a saucepan on
> the AGA. Eventually I found a Celsius thermometer and
> tried it. Then I put an elastic band on it to provide a
> return spring force. It worked exactly as I expected -
> opening at about 73 and being fully open at 80. As per spec.
>
> So I did some thinking, and drew it past Simon Nash who
> has part-installed his. We decided that it is likely that
> the sealing of the ports in the thermostat has been
> compromised by the required drilling out of the ports to
> 10 mm. If in the hot position the disk that seals off the
> by-pass doesn't quite block it off then oil will prefer to
> go the by-pass route and not go via the cooler.
>
> I have a "cunning plan" to check on this and I will report
> back soon after it is installed and tested. It should
> prove the problem of heating up too much in the climb. The
> cruise coldness may be a by-product, but I can live with
> that for now as it was a VERY cold day when I test flew
> it, and I had no baffles whatsoever on the radiators.
>
> In the mean-time - I would recommend anyone who has bought
> one of these thermostats to avoid drilling out the ports
> until I report back. Or if you have done two ports then
> DON'T do the other two.
>
> Another lateral thought - does anyone know if oil coolers
> ever have a required direction of flow ?
>
> Richard Holder, who can envisage installation, and then a
> further removal and re-installation. In the brrrrrrrr cold !
>
> G-OWWW, High Cross
>
>
>
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