---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/25/06: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:46 AM - Oil Thermostat (Richard Holder) 2. 12:46 AM - Re: Question for Rotax Drivers... (Richard Holder) 3. 01:27 AM - Re: Cold starting problems (Richard Holder) 4. 02:30 AM - Re: Oil stat diagram (Richard Holder) 5. 03:45 AM - Re: Oil Thermostat (R.C.Harrison) 6. 07:49 AM - Re: Question for Rotax Drivers... (D Wysong) 7. 08:47 AM - Rotax 914, run fuel pump with no battery? () 8. 09:31 AM - Re: Rotax 914, run fuel pump with no battery? (Gilles Thesee) 9. 09:35 AM - Re: Rotax 914, run fuel pump with no battery? (Paul McAllister) 10. 09:36 AM - Re: Re: Oil Thermostat (Nigel Graham) 11. 10:11 AM - Oil Thermostat (Richard Holder) 12. 10:38 AM - Re: Re: Oil Thermostat (Mike Parkin) 13. 11:40 AM - Re: Cold starting problems (nigel charles) 14. 12:15 PM - Re: Cold starting problems (Peter Rees) 15. 12:24 PM - Re: Question for Rotax Drivers... (Fred Fillinger) 16. 12:55 PM - Finger Brake springs (Al Stills) 17. 01:22 PM - Re: Insurance (Richard Holder) 18. 02:03 PM - Re: Question for Rotax Drivers... (D Wysong) 19. 06:41 PM - Transition training for XS Mono (Craig Ellison) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:46:33 AM PST US From: Richard Holder Subject: Europa-List: Oil Thermostat --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder R.C.Harrison wrote: > But to look at the logic I'm not aware of oil > circulation being used to cool an engine so in most > applications ... This, Bob, is complete rubbish. IMNSHO. All engines with no water cooling always have an oil cooler. Why - to cool the oil ! And why does it need to be cooled ? Because it gets hot. And why does it get hot ? Because it is taking heat out of the engine ! The cooling air can only reach the outside of the engine. I hope your statement was a typo ! Richard ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:46:39 AM PST US From: Richard Holder Subject: Re: Europa-List: Question for Rotax Drivers... --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder Dean Seitz wrote: > The lamp is on when the master and the alt switches are on and the alt is > not charging the battery. It is on until the engine starts and begins > charging then it goes off. The "lamp" is a "Low volts warning lamp" :-) Richard ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:27:57 AM PST US From: Richard Holder Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cold starting problems --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder > We are still having tremendous problems getting HI > started in the cold. We've replaced the battery but the > engine still shakes violently when cranked and seems to > run in whats been described as 'sub idle' before we > execute a somewhat rapid shut down. > Trawling the archive gives me the very strong > impression that our sprag clutch is due for the bin but > I'd rathter get someone familiar with Rotax starting > problems before changing such an expensive part (or > getting it done more like!) and finding out that its > one of the carbs! > Can anyone tell me - is it possible to remove the > starter without taking the engine out in a 912 classic? > Mine is an XS firewall forward so I am not certain, but I believe a starter motor out job on a classic f/f/w requires engine out. > Conrad seems to be pretty well booked up at present - > has anyone used Adrian Lloyd? If so (and he is any > good) - does anyone have a contact number for him (or > anyone else that can be recommended). Adrian changed mine for me, in situ. I recommend him ! > Really need to get this sorted before the starter or > engine frame quits. What I am nor sure of is whether the shaking is caused by the worn sprag clutch or whether the worn sprag clutch has been caused by the non-starting and kick-back. The kick-back is caused by the starter just not being man enough to do the job. (912S). Adrian put a HD starter on for me and the engine starts instantly now. If yours is a 912 then Peter Jeffers may help - he was having similar problems and changed his sprag clutch at around 1000 hours. I understand that the HD starter motor will not fit inside the classic engine mount. It is only a matter of 1/4 inch or so. Maybe some judicious cutting and rewelding might work (if approved !) or a large hammer ? Richard ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:30:39 AM PST US From: Richard Holder Subject: Europa-List: Re: Oil stat diagram --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder Pete Lawless wrote: > Sorry Richard getting the diagram is as far as I got. > I am attracted by the idea of a stat but am not wholly > convinced that the wax stat is the correct option. I > am worried about it failing shut. Anyway our hanger is > just too cold at this time of year to do other that > essential work. What I want to do is move the oil > cooler off the back of the water radiator and into its > own 'hole'. For this to work it would need a stat for > cold weather operation. > > I watch progress on this thread with interest. It is getting a bit over the top ! I note that it has been reported that oil temps have stayed low in the cruise. It maybe that in the cruise configuration very little heat is produced and most is taken away by the water and the air. It does seem to be my experience. (Unless the oil thermostat was opening slightly early). It means that the oil temps were OK even with no cooler being used. This would mean I need to lag the rest of the oil pipes and the oil tank - to try and keep some heat IN in the oil ! It also means that I have snookered myself as the original idea for the oil thermostat was to keep the temperature up in cold weather. A by-product was to keep the oil temp down in unfavourable hot conditions by uncovering the whole of the oil cooler (it was half covered before !) Anyway too bl**dy cold and damp to re-install today - unless it improves this afternoon ! Richard G-OWWW ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:45:58 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Oil Thermostat --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! Richard. I appreciated the error of my statement as soon as I pressed the send key. My point was that in air cooled engines the oil isn't the primary cooling medium. In the Jabiru case the sump has cooling fins BUT when over filled the thing overheats, half fill it and it stays cool! Thus in the established cruise there is no need for an oil cooler whatever. But when major power is required during which I accept the oil is obviously taking heat to the cooler as is the sump a heat sink on a conventional engine without an oil cooler but the primary cooling is by water circulation. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300 -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Holder Sent: 25 January 2006 08:44 Subject: Europa-List: Oil Thermostat --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder R.C.Harrison wrote: > But to look at the logic I'm not aware of oil > circulation being used to cool an engine so in most > applications ... This, Bob, is complete rubbish. IMNSHO. All engines with no water cooling always have an oil cooler. Why - to cool the oil ! And why does it need to be cooled ? Because it gets hot. And why does it get hot ? Because it is taking heat out of the engine ! The cooling air can only reach the outside of the engine. I hope your statement was a typo ! Richard ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:05 AM PST US From: D Wysong Subject: Re: Europa-List: Question for Rotax Drivers... --> Europa-List message posted by: D Wysong Thanks, Richard. That's how my schematic was treating it... before I made the mistake of reading the manual and seeing the "Charge Indicator" label for the lamp which caused a mild fit of second guessing. Still wondering what the underlying circuit looks like, though. With the batt/alt switch ON and the engine not turning the lamp should light. With "C" sitting at the batt bus voltage in this case, "L" must be pulled low to complete the circuit (light the lamp). As the generator starts generating, I'm not clear whether "L" will gradually float up with the output of the regulator or if it looks like a discrete open circuit (like relay contacts opening). ??? Hopefully I'll be able to measure it myself before too long and can report back. D do not archive ----------- On 1/25/06, Richard Holder wrote: > > --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder > > Dean Seitz wrote: > > > The lamp is on when the master and the alt switches are on and the alt > is > > not charging the battery. It is on until the engine starts and begins > > charging then it goes off. > > The "lamp" is a "Low volts warning lamp" :-) > > Richard > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:51 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Rotax 914, run fuel pump with no battery? From: --> Europa-List message posted by: Studying Rotax 914 schematic, the main fuel pump is wired to the B+ of the regulator. It appears if you open the alternator output switch, they expect the alternator could run the fuel pump with no battery in circuit and act as a true redundant pump??? Am I correct in my assumption that you could fly with a fuel pump running off the alternator only with no battery connected? In this configuration with no battery at all, is the alternator self exciting to get things going? Will testing often to make sure the pump will run in this configuration do any harm to the regulator, alternator, pump or switch? Or should this be used only in an emergency? They do have a 22000mF capacitor from B+ to ground. Thx. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:31:10 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 914, run fuel pump with no battery? --> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us a crit : >--> Europa-List message posted by: > >Studying Rotax 914 schematic, the main fuel pump is wired to the B+ of the >regulator. > >It appears if you open the alternator output switch, they expect the >alternator could run the fuel pump with no battery in circuit and act as a >true redundant pump??? > >Am I correct in my assumption that you could fly with a fuel pump running >off the alternator only with no battery connected? > >In this configuration with no battery at all, is the alternator self >exciting to get things going? > >Will testing often to make sure the pump will run in this configuration do >any harm to the regulator, alternator, pump or switch? Or should this be >used only in an emergency? > >They do have a 22000mF capacitor from B+ to ground. > > > Ron, When designing our project's Rotax 914 electric circuit, I had the opportunity to study the Rotax/Ducati alternator and regulator. With the help of a friend who is doing electrical research at the University, we performed some bench tests. I am positive that the Rotax regulator will NOT start to life if not connected to a properly charged battery or capacitor. You need sufficient bus voltage to trigger it. If your battery quits, or if you disconnect it in flight, you may encounter difficulties trying to trigger the regulator again. In my opinion, running the fuel pump direct from the regulator, as suggested by Rotax, is definitely NOT a good idea. Besides, the Rotax/Ducati exhibits an alarming high rate of failure. So I decided to go the dual battery way, and resorted to a Schicke regulator, which is self exciting. More info and diagrams on my "Electricity" pages. Within the next few weeks, I'll publish a summary of our research. FWIW, Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:35:04 AM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Rotax 914, run fuel pump with no battery? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Ron, Yes this is how it works on my aircraft and I have tested it. Paul -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 10:43 AM Subject: Europa-List: Rotax 914, run fuel pump with no battery? --> Europa-List message posted by: Studying Rotax 914 schematic, the main fuel pump is wired to the B+ of the regulator. It appears if you open the alternator output switch, they expect the alternator could run the fuel pump with no battery in circuit and act as a true redundant pump??? Am I correct in my assumption that you could fly with a fuel pump running off the alternator only with no battery connected? In this configuration with no battery at all, is the alternator self exciting to get things going? Will testing often to make sure the pump will run in this configuration do any harm to the regulator, alternator, pump or switch? Or should this be used only in an emergency? They do have a 22000mF capacitor from B+ to ground. Thx. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:37 AM PST US From: "Nigel Graham" Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: Oil Thermostat --> Europa-List message posted by: "Nigel Graham" Way to go Gilles. You have created the ideal oil cooling system that I was describing (albeit with manual control). Since this discussion is nicely "on-the-boil" (pun totally intended) - here is another aspect to consider - weight. >From the postings on this group over the years, it would seem that there is more concern with new builds running too hot - than too cool. The thermostats primary purpose is to increase engine temperature (it cannot improve cooling) so its main benefit is to get the engine up to temperature more quickly following start-up. For the entire rest of the flight - the thermostat, its pipework, clips, mounting brackets and the additional oil needed to fill the new pipework is simply dead weight being lugged around the sky increasing fuel consumption and reducing performance. A well designed duct with a lightweight vane to control airflow (operated either manually or by servo) would weigh grams rather than the kilos of an oil thermostat system. On a heavier certified aircraft this is not such an issue, but on the Europa any weight saving improves performance. Nigel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gilles Thesee" ...........we decided to make a cowling from scratch, and I had the opportunity to design a radiator duct with cowl flaps. A short summary of the design principle can be viewed on my "wind tunnel" web pages. The airplane has been flight tested from -14C to +37C with perfect ease of temperature adjustment. Operating the cowl flap is a breeze, and you always have a few minutes to adjust temperatures to your taste within 5C of target................................. Regards, Gilles Thesee ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:17 AM PST US From: Richard Holder Subject: Europa-List: Oil Thermostat --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder Nigel Graham wrote: >> From the postings on this group over the years, it >> would seem that there is > more concern with new builds running too hot - than too > cool. Mine (912 S 170 hours) runs too cool except in the climb. > The thermostats primary purpose is to increase engine > temperature (it cannot improve cooling) It can improve cooling. Mine was running cold so i blanked off half the oil cooler and it was like that throughout the summer of 2003. With the thermostat the oil cooler can be completely uncovered as the thermostat will control the amount of oil going through it and therefore its cooling effect. So in very very hot weather the thermostat directs all the oil through the cooler which can be used to its fullest extent. In cold weather it is almost completely blanked off keeping the oil nice and warm. The flaw in this argument as I have found is that in the cruise the oil just doesn't get enough heat pushed into it to even reach the 80 degrees at which point the thermostat will control it to 80 degrees. I am considering lagging the oil pipes AND the oil tank to keep the heat in ! This was found in 2 degree weather ! Maybe in 10 degree weather it would be OK ! > A well designed duct with a lightweight vane to control > airflow (operated > either manually or by servo) would weigh grams rather > than the kilos of an oil thermostat system. Oil thermostat - 251 grams ! This is gonna run and run and run :-) Richard ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:49 AM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: Oil Thermostat --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Parkin" > more quickly following start-up. For the entire rest of the flight - the > thermostat, its pipework, clips, mounting brackets and the additional oil > needed to fill the new pipework is simply dead weight being lugged around > the sky increasing fuel consumption and reducing performance. > > A well designed duct with a lightweight vane to control airflow (operated > either manually or by servo) would weigh grams rather than the kilos of an > oil thermostat system. > On a heavier certified aircraft this is not such an issue, but on the > Europa > any weight saving improves performance. > > Nigel > Nigel, I don't agree with your weight argument. The thermostat is very light and requires no extra hose to speak of - just 4 jubilee clips. For a start, the MAC servo weighs 4oz without any fittings. The objective is raise the oil temp and keep it at the optimum operating temperature. Which seems more unlikely as the story unfolds. regards, MP ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:40:18 AM PST US From: "nigel charles" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Cold starting problems --> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" >>Can anyone tell me - is it possible to remove the starter without taking the engine out in a 912 classic?<< The Classic engine mount obscures the starter from removal with it in situ. Its close proximity to the engine also means that the more powerful starter cannot be fitted. Modifying the frame is not possible as the area that needs modification also happens to be the position of the head of the top starboard engine mount bolt. Any upgrade to the more powerful starter means changing to the XS mount which means a full upgrade to XS firewall forward. I have done this and the new starter seems to solve the kickback problem. With this in mind I would say that the combination of the Classic and the 912S is not good unless you like regular sprag clutch replacements. >Conrad seems to be pretty well booked up at present - has anyone used Adrian Lloyd? If so (and he is any good) - does anyone have a contact number for him (or anyone else that can be recommended).< Adrian replaced my sprag clutch for me. He has done quite a few now. I can fully recommend him. His number is 01885 482504. Regards Nigel Charles ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:15:21 PM PST US From: "Peter Rees" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cold starting problems --> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees" Hi Nigel Thanks for the contact info - I'll give him a call. Ours is a 912, not the 912s. I'll give Adrian a call and ask his opinion. One thing I had thought of trying was to fine off the prop - its about 18 degrees at the moment - maybe this is restricting the speed that the starter can turn the engine - Do you think this could be worth a try?? Thanks once again for contact info. Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "nigel charles" Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 7:35 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Cold starting problems > --> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" > > > >>>Can anyone tell me - is it possible to remove the starter without > taking the engine out in a 912 classic?<< > > The Classic engine mount obscures the starter from removal with it in > situ. Its close proximity to the engine also means that the more > powerful starter cannot be fitted. Modifying the frame is not possible > as the area that needs modification also happens to be the position of > the head of the top starboard engine mount bolt. Any upgrade to the more > powerful starter means changing to the XS mount which means a full > upgrade to XS firewall forward. I have done this and the new starter > seems to solve the kickback problem. With this in mind I would say that > the combination of the Classic and the 912S is not good unless you like > regular sprag clutch replacements. > > >>Conrad seems to be pretty well booked up at present - has anyone used > Adrian Lloyd? If so (and he is any good) - does anyone have a contact > number for him (or anyone else that can be recommended).< > > Adrian replaced my sprag clutch for me. He has done quite a few now. I > can fully recommend him. His number is 01885 482504. > > Regards > > Nigel Charles > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:24:47 PM PST US From: "Fred Fillinger" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Question for Rotax Drivers... --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" D Wysong wrote: > Still wondering what the underlying circuit looks like, > though. With the batt/alt switch ON and the engine not > turning the lamp should light. With "C" sitting at the batt > bus voltage in this case, "L" must be pulled low to > complete the circuit (light the lamp). Yes. The "L" terminal is either open (call it infinite resistance; system nominally working) or at ground -- lamp lit, not working. There's a transistor switch in there to accomplish that, and voltage must be supplied from the outside. So, voltage measurements at the "L" terminal with accompanying circuitry will be consistent with only "on or off." The volts at which the lamp is on or off is a grain-of-salt matter. It has to be set low enough (through a dirt-simple reference diode inside the regulator) so that "off" does not necessarily mean the battery is being sufficiently charged. A/k/a as a "tit on a boar hog." :-) Reg, Fred F. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:38 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Finger Brake springs From: "Al Stills" --> Europa-List message posted by: "Al Stills" After talking to RJ at Jamar Products, He has supplied heavier springs and top hat for the master cylinder. I'll try it out (as soon as mine is finished) and if it works ok. He will supply them to Europa as a no cost fix for the springs and sticking of the Seal. Al Stills N625AZ Panel In. Front windshield in, Ready to put the power to it and see what goes...snap,crackle, & pop. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:22:36 PM PST US From: Richard Holder Subject: Re: Europa-List: Insurance --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder David Joyce wrote: > UK Europa pilots have probably recently been contacted > by Traffords offering to quote for insurance. I thought > it worth letting you know that their quote has saved me > 300 over the Hall & Clarke quote. Regards, David Joyce David I too have found that Hall and Clarke are not competitive. I have been with Jennings since the start. Last year H&C were 1600 and Trafford/Jennings 1200 This year H&C were 1650 and Trafford/Jennings 1250 Approx I wrote back to H&C saying they were uncompetitive and had they taken into account the special arrangement with the PFA. No reply. I think they are trying to take advantage - to their advantage rather than to the PFA members' advantage. I wonder if ANYONE has had a better quote from H&C. Is anyone using H&C ? So much for the special arrangements made by the PFA to get better insurance rates because of the power of having many members. Jeremy - has this ever been taken up by the PFA ? Discussed ? Anything ? Do I remember the Europa Club had also considered getting a "Europa Club" insurer who would do a good deal ? Was it postponed because of the PFA arrangement with H&C ? If so isn't it time to re-instate the search for a Europa Club insurer ? Richard ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:26 PM PST US From: D Wysong Subject: Re: Europa-List: Question for Rotax Drivers... --> Europa-List message posted by: D Wysong Understood, Fred. Thanks for the insight! D do not archive ----------- Fred Fillinger wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" > A/k/a as a "tit on a boar hog." :-) ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:41:30 PM PST US From: "Craig Ellison" Subject: Europa-List: Transition training for XS Mono --> Europa-List message posted by: "Craig Ellison" All, I am currently getting the finishing touches on N205CN which is XS Mono and soon will be ready for first flight. While finding someone to do the honors has been fairly stright forward, (Bob Lindsay has been very helpful and willing)finding a Mono to do transition training in has been impossible. So here is the question for the worldwide Europa family, Is there anyone out there(UK,NZ, US) that can help with transition training? Here in the US the only insurance for Europa requires 15hr duel and 10 hr solo before they'll cover and the FAA has closed off any transition training in the first 40hr of phase 1 testing. So efectively there is no coverage for the first 40hr unless one can get 15hr instruction beforehand. Insurance issues aside, I don't feel it would be wise to fly the Europa mono without some form of training due to its unique flying characteristics. I know some will say to give up on the mono and change it to a trike. Well that is an option and one that I might be forced to make but I would prefer not to if at all possible. Thanks for any and all help and or suggestions Craig Ellison A205/N205CN Silverton, OR USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul McAllister" Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 9:31 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Rotax 914, run fuel pump with no battery? > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" > > > Ron, > > Yes this is how it works on my aircraft and I have tested it. > > Paul > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of > rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us > Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 10:43 AM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Rotax 914, run fuel pump with no battery? > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: > > Studying Rotax 914 schematic, the main fuel pump is wired to the B+ of the > regulator. > > It appears if you open the alternator output switch, they expect the > alternator could run the fuel pump with no battery in circuit and act as a > true redundant pump??? > > Am I correct in my assumption that you could fly with a fuel pump running > off the alternator only with no battery connected? > > In this configuration with no battery at all, is the alternator self > exciting to get things going? > > Will testing often to make sure the pump will run in this configuration do > any harm to the regulator, alternator, pump or switch? Or should this be > used only in an emergency? > > They do have a 22000mF capacitor from B+ to ground. > > > Thx. > Ron Parigoris > > >