---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 01/27/06: 25 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:28 AM - Battery solenoids (MR PAUL MITCHELL) 2. 12:29 AM - Re: oil thermostats (Kingsley Hurst) 3. 01:18 AM - oil thermostats (Graham Singleton) 4. 01:32 AM - Re: Battery solenoids (Richard Holder) 5. 02:21 AM - Re: Re: Pre-heating a Rotax? (Raimo Toivio) 6. 02:51 AM - Re: Battery solenoids (MR PAUL MITCHELL) 7. 03:52 AM - Re: Battery solenoids (Mark Burton) 8. 04:25 AM - Re: Battery solenoids (Kingsley Hurst) 9. 04:44 AM - Re: A cry from the wilderness (R.C.Harrison) 10. 04:44 AM - Re: oil thermostats (R.C.Harrison) 11. 05:29 AM - Re: Pre-heating a Rotax? (Paul McAllister) 12. 05:51 AM - Re: Re: Battery solenoids (Gilles Thesee) 13. 05:51 AM - Re: Transition training for XS Mono (Jim Butcher) 14. 06:36 AM - Re: Re: Pre-heating a Rotax? (Jeremy Davey) 15. 07:56 AM - Re: Battery solenoids (Mark Burton) 16. 08:16 AM - Re: Battery solenoids (Gilles Thesee) 17. 08:34 AM - Re: Re: Battery solenoids (D Wysong) 18. 09:33 AM - Prte-heating Rotax (Fergus Kyle) 19. 09:41 AM - DOTH Sun29th Sibson (Paddy Clarke) 20. 11:30 AM - Re: Re: Battery solenoids (Fred Fillinger) 21. 11:30 AM - Re: Re: Battery solenoids (Fred Fillinger) 22. 01:25 PM - Re: A cry from the wilderness (Fergus Kyle) 23. 02:24 PM - Re: Re: Battery solenoids (Gilles Thesee) 24. 03:33 PM - Re: Angle of Attack/ Dynon (JR(Bob) Gowing) 25. 07:36 PM - Re: Re: Battery solenoids (Fred Fillinger) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:28:37 AM PST US From: "MR PAUL MITCHELL" Subject: Europa-List: Battery solenoids --> Europa-List message posted by: "MR PAUL MITCHELL" Can anyone tell me how hot I can expect the battery isolation solenoid case to be after being "on" on the ground and carrying 2 amps for an hour . Mine is really warm to the point of being too hot to hold for more than 10 seconds. Do you think it is faulty Paul Mitchell ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:29:12 AM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: RE: Europa-List: oil thermostats --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" > All engines with no water cooling always have an oil cooler. May I respectfully suggest the word "Some" be substituted in place of "All" in the above and delete "always". Just a couple of cases in point. Years ago, I flew a Cessna 172F in my job for 12 years. It had a Continental O300 engine and NO oil cooler much to my disgust flying in a hot climate. However, to make the gauge read a lower temp, Cessna in their wisdom directed a blast of cold air directly onto the temperature sensor bulb. . . . but of course, this was a CERTIFIED aircraft. No self respecting home builder would contemplate such a devious device. Also, what about two stroke motor mowers? I haven't seen an oil cooler on one of them yet. Haven't seen a water cooled one either come to think of it ! Ok, I know we are probably referring only to aircraft engines but my point is, "NEVER say NEVER" Regs Kingsley Do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:18:19 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Europa-List: oil thermostats --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills" I partly agree, Richard and Graham, but not many of the older generation of motorcycles had an oil cooler. B w, William Do not archive /William that's why they used to blow holes in the pistons. My Vincent Black Prince did, so did a friend's Bonneville Graham/ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:32:48 AM PST US From: Richard Holder Subject: Re: Europa-List: Battery solenoids --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder > Can anyone tell me how hot I can expect the battery > isolation solenoid case to be after being "on" on the > ground and carrying 2 amps for an hour . Mine is really > warm to the point of being too hot to hold for more > than 10 seconds. Do you think it is faulty Paul > Mitchell It should not be carrying 2 amps. With the Rotax you only have 19 amps to play with. If your solenoid is designed to actually use 2 amps it is unsuitable. I used a "rally/race car" master switch (red in colour) as the battery cut off in mine. It uses no current to activate itself ! Then if you want a master switch operated solenoid for the non-starter battery current then a much smaller one can be used - with a max switching capacity of about 25 - 30 amps. I have seen such which only use 0.1 amp for their coils. Richard ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:21:26 AM PST US From: "Raimo Toivio" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Pre-heating a Rotax? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Raimo Toivio" Jeremy, OK - of course you are technically right but same target. When rich, catalytic converter cannot work as it should be. In fact, it is possible to spoil it by a little but possibe amount of rare petrol. And that is bad for your wallet and surrounding nature. If preheated I am sure also cc gets earlier upp to operating temperature and start to work sooner. When preheated, the engine idle time is usually shorter and that is good for cc. So, engine preheating also helps cc to save the world... Wishes, Raimo (not Teimo) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeremy Davey" Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:09 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Pre-heating a Rotax? > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jeremy Davey" > > Hold on Teimo - much of that I'd agree with, but not the bit on the > catalyst. > > The catalytic converter does not work until it gets up to temperature (in > the hundreds of degrees), regardless of the initial temperature of the > engine. Preheating the engine will not reduce pollution by making the cat > work sooner - but it will reduce pollution some by reducing the length of > time the engine is running rich ("on choke"). > > Regards, > Jeremy > > Jeremy Davey > Europa Monowheel 537M G-EZZA > Europa Club Vice-Chairman, Webmaster, PFA NC Representative > PFA EC Member > "If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, then it is > possible you haven't grasped the severity of the situation." > Tail done > Standard XS wings with mods underway > CM installed in fuse (with airbrakes fittings) > 1430 build hours to date, build currently stalled due to house moves and > lack of workshop > Intended fit: > Rotax 914 turbo, Airmaster CS fully-feathering prop > Lots of lights, buttons, switches, gizmos, and alarms > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio > Sent: 26 January 2006 15:57 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Pre-heating a Rotax? > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Raimo Toivio" > > All (on the northern hemisphere)! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Butcher" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 3:40 AM > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Pre-heating a Rotax? > > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Butcher" > > > > Talked to Andy about winter operations the other day. He suggested that > the > > Rotax is built with tolerances similar to an automobile engine and > therefore > > really doesn't need preheated. After all, do you preheat your car? > > > > Yes I really do! Always when below 0C. Also cockpit. > > Main factors: > > 1) preheated engine gives instantly heat for cockpit > > - safe: windows are immediately clean of ice and snow and no fog on them > - comfort: +20C leather feels better than -20C leather and less clothing > - health: no back injury for example > > 2) engine health: oil works immediately after start > > 3) fuel consumption: preheated car saves money > > - thumb of rule: cold engine takes extra fuel 2 dl > or more in every cold start > > 4) pollution: less fuel - less pollution > > - catalysator did not work until the engine is warm > > 5) time tables: preheated car starts "always" like under the palm tree > > - if cold, have you enough el-power to start the stiff engine? > - you can drive immediately, no warm-upp moms > > Sophisticated Engine Preheat Systems: > > - electric resistance element in water w thermostat connected to mains > (typically 500W and 2 hrs pre-heating is enough for -20C) > - programable and radio remote controlled heating system, > burns petrol or diesel (Webasto, Ebersbacher...) > (typically 2-5kW and 20 minutes is enough, needs also electric 50W) > - also integrated battery pre-heating and charging systems > - heated car garage, if possible (!) > > I have installed electric preheating system in my Rotax. > I will keep it on ALWAYS when below +10C (in or out). > It keeps also cockpit warm and dry (good for electronic bits). > > I have also water thermostat and heat exchanger in oil system. > Cannot comment how they work - engine has not fire upp yet. > > Regards, Raimo > =========== > Raimo M W Toivio > > OH-XRT #417 XS Mono, building hrs 1400 so far > OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk > OH-BLL Beech C45 > > 37500 Lempaala > Finland > tel + 358 3 3753 777 > fax + 358 3 3753 100 > gsm + 358 40 590 1450 > > raimo.toivio@rwm.fi > www.rwm.fi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:51:40 AM PST US From: "MR PAUL MITCHELL" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Battery solenoids --> Europa-List message posted by: "MR PAUL MITCHELL" Richard, I believe it is the coil current that is generating the heat, not the load. Think it must be faulty. Any idea where I can get one of these master switch operated solenoids with the 0.1 amp coil load. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Holder" Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 9:28 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Battery solenoids > --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder > >> Can anyone tell me how hot I can expect the battery >> isolation solenoid case to be after being "on" on the >> ground and carrying 2 amps for an hour . Mine is really >> warm to the point of being too hot to hold for more >> than 10 seconds. Do you think it is faulty Paul >> Mitchell > > It should not be carrying 2 amps. With the Rotax you only > have 19 amps to play with. If your solenoid is designed to > actually use 2 amps it is unsuitable. > > I used a "rally/race car" master switch (red in colour) as > the battery cut off in mine. It uses no current to > activate itself ! > > Then if you want a master switch operated solenoid for the > non-starter battery current then a much smaller one can be > used - with a max switching capacity of about 25 - 30 > amps. I have seen such which only use 0.1 amp for their coils. > > Richard > > > -- > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:52:51 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Battery solenoids From: "Mark Burton" --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mark Burton" Considering the principle of how the Rotax "regulator" operates (i.e. by shorting out the generator coils when the output voltage exceeds a limit), it is a possibility that having a permanent load of 1 or 2 amps is actually "kinder" to the regulator because it helps stop the load dropping to the point where the regulator actually starts "regulating". Maybe it's better to warm up the solenoid coil than warm the regulator innards. Obviously, if you can't afford to loose 2 amps to the solenoid, don't use it. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=7240#7240 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:25:58 AM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Battery solenoids --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" > I believe it is the coil current that is generating the heat, not the > load. > Think it must be faulty. Paul, I doubt your contactor is faulty. If it is one of the metal can types, it is quite normal for them to get quite hot or too hot to touch. Regards Kingsley ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:44:52 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: A cry from the wilderness --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! Ferg Sounds like a pair of 12" long pliers. I have three pairs here each with a different offset to the pointed business end. However I guess mine wouldn't be any good being so far away ! Cheer up Pal think about how you bend the little bastards behind the stabilator torque tube with one hand and being unable to see them ! They always told me that "where there's a will there's a way". Regards and commiserations Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI ?Jabiru 3300 -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fergus Kyle Sent: 27 January 2006 00:19 Subject: Europa-List: A cry from the wilderness --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" Cheers, I come to you again with another desparate moan. You mustn't think my build is all frantic patching and hole-filling, but occasionally a 'blip' occurs and in these moments of abject blackness I turn to you, fellow buiilders - of the Classic persuasion. Cast your mind back to the fabrication of the flap actuating pushrod. Recall if you will the front end comprises a clevis fork which connects with a pair of odd-shaped plates atop the starboard retracting arm. It s does this with a cleis pin up in the musty recesses of the forward tunnel area. The clevis pin is held in by a cotter pin. So is mine. I inserted it, gave the cotter pin tails a perfunctory bend each and marked the page with a red dot - to confirm that there was more to be done before one could move on forever. This has been my practice from the first in order to prove to my giggling inspector what a serious and introspective little botherer I am. Yes, you guessed it - the whole thing went together deliciously months ago to my great personal pleasure. Ah, but lurking inside was the missed red dot - the half assembled @#$%?& cotter pin. As you may imagine, it now sits about 8 inches into the tunnel mouth, in the upper starboard corner, with about one inch of free space around it. We all know my inspector is going to discover this anomaly within the first few moments of his scrutiny. Uncorrected, this travesty will set a precedent for the remaining Search for Error routine and all my mistakes will come tumbling into the sunshine. I am undone............ UNLESS of course I can bend the ends of this little @#$%?& into the benign smile all cotter pins should display. Here's where you come in! Out there in aeroplane-land lives a quiet contemplative genius with the answer to my quandary. You have only to release his name - and my day is made ( tel. number a bonus). OR if you are that person, I beg you to reveal the secret that will free my ravaged soul. I won't tell Inspector Grinch I cheated either. Really, Ferg engine hanging nearby ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:44:52 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: oil thermostats --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! Graham Don't rub it in ! Hopefully you saw my retraction and explanation leading to my misconception? Just out of interest ...on reading the item about shock cooling the guy made a statement that oil contributes to only 8% of the cooling on an air cooled engine and 12% from the cooling fins with 44% from the exhaust pipe. However he does point out that the 8% is nearly as much as the 12% too. I guess the remaining 36% goes in general crank case cooling etc. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300 Do not archive. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Graham Singleton Sent: 27 January 2006 00:21 Subject: Europa-List: oil thermostats --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder >> But to look at the logic I'm not aware of oil >> circulation being used to cool an engine so in most >> applications ... > > This, Bob, is complete rubbish. IMNSHO. All engines with no water cooling always have an oil cooler. Because it is taking heat out of the engine ! I hope your statement was a typo ! Richard Richard, you are absolutely right. The only way to keep tyhe pistons cool is to sqirt or splash oil at them. Graham ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:29:28 AM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Europa-List: Re: Pre-heating a Rotax? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Guys, For what its worth, I fly my aircraft in the winter in temperatures low as 15f. In addition to the engine heater I have a small electric blow heater that I have connected up to domestic air-conditioning/heater thermostat which keeps the cockpit at 50f. The main reason is so that the gyroscopic instruments aren't being run at very cold temperatures, but is sure is nice to get into a warm cockpit as well. Paul ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:51:45 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery solenoids --> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee Mark Burton a crit : >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Mark Burton" > >Considering the principle of how the Rotax "regulator" operates (i.e. by shorting out the generator coils when the output voltage exceeds a limit), it is a possibility that having a permanent load of 1 or 2 amps is actually "kinder" to the regulator because it helps stop the load dropping to the point where the regulator actually starts "regulating". Maybe it's better to warm up the solenoid coil than warm the regulator innards. > > > Mark and all, For what it's worth, the Rotax regulator doesn't work the way you state. Actually, the more amps it delivers, the more it warms up. Hence the problems encountered with too many amp-hungry goodies. In my opinion, drawing 19 amps is very optimistic in anything but the coldest outside temperatures. Something around 12 amps seems more conservative. Of course, 1-2 amps won't do any harm, be the amp budget is so limited with the continuous load of the electric fuel pump on the 914. In the future, I'll publish a summary of the tests we conducted on the Rotax alternator/regulator, with pictures, regulator schematics and thermal investigations. Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:51:46 AM PST US From: "Jim Butcher" Subject: Europa-List: Re: Transition training for XS Mono --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Butcher" Craig, We went thru the same questions last Fall. I am a 2000 hr pilot with inst rating. Heather is <100 hr pilot. We hadn't flown during the build. Our EAA Flight Advisor recommended this plan: To get current and to get applicable experience for the mono, we got our glider ratings. The glider (2-33) is a monowheel (no outriggers) and tailwheel. We got our tailwheel endorsement from the glider operator in a Cessna 150 converted to taildragger with 180 hp engine. That was fun! We also found a glider club with a Scheibe motorglider which is very similar to the Europa (monowheel, outriggers, less power) and got our self launch glider endorsement. All this amounted to 20 - 30 hrs (2/3 glider, 1/3 tailwheel). I did first flight and first 6 hours in the Europa with no problem. Heather then started flying the Europa and has 2 hrs (weather has shut us down). Before first flight we reread the Europa Flyer articles and on the flight really made sure airspeed was correct. I made a couple of approaches before the first landing before I got the airspeed really nailed. It's been uneventful since then but the grins are huge! We're alternating flights to complete the test plan and fly off the 40 hrs. For insurance we ended up liability only from Avemco. No one would offer us hull. Jim & Heather Butcher N241BW ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:36:08 AM PST US From: "Jeremy Davey" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Pre-heating a Rotax? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jeremy Davey" Teimo, A long-winded journey to the same conclusion :-) I concur - if preheating means you can open the engine up sooner, it will get the cc to temp a little sooner, and hence do more to save the environment! I suspect, though, that this one is a marginal saving - certainly when compared to the environmental benefits of dropping a bomb on a suburban 4x4 on every flight...! Cheers, Jeremy Jeremy Davey Europa Monowheel 537M G-EZZA Europa Club Vice-Chairman, Webmaster, PFA NC Representative PFA EC Member "If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, then it is possible you haven't grasped the severity of the situation." Tail done Standard XS wings with mods underway CM installed in fuse (with airbrakes fittings) 1430 build hours to date, build currently stalled due to house moves and lack of workshop Intended fit: Rotax 914 turbo, Airmaster CS fully-feathering prop Lots of lights, buttons, switches, gizmos, and alarms -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio Sent: 27 January 2006 10:21 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Pre-heating a Rotax? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Raimo Toivio" Jeremy, OK - of course you are technically right but same target. When rich, catalytic converter cannot work as it should be. In fact, it is possible to spoil it by a little but possibe amount of rare petrol. And that is bad for your wallet and surrounding nature. If preheated I am sure also cc gets earlier upp to operating temperature and start to work sooner. When preheated, the engine idle time is usually shorter and that is good for cc. So, engine preheating also helps cc to save the world... Wishes, Raimo (not Teimo) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeremy Davey" Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:09 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Pre-heating a Rotax? > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jeremy Davey" > > Hold on Teimo - much of that I'd agree with, but not the bit on the > catalyst. > > The catalytic converter does not work until it gets up to temperature (in > the hundreds of degrees), regardless of the initial temperature of the > engine. Preheating the engine will not reduce pollution by making the cat > work sooner - but it will reduce pollution some by reducing the length of > time the engine is running rich ("on choke"). > > Regards, > Jeremy > > Jeremy Davey > Europa Monowheel 537M G-EZZA > Europa Club Vice-Chairman, Webmaster, PFA NC Representative > PFA EC Member > "If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, then it is > possible you haven't grasped the severity of the situation." > Tail done > Standard XS wings with mods underway > CM installed in fuse (with airbrakes fittings) > 1430 build hours to date, build currently stalled due to house moves and > lack of workshop > Intended fit: > Rotax 914 turbo, Airmaster CS fully-feathering prop > Lots of lights, buttons, switches, gizmos, and alarms > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio > Sent: 26 January 2006 15:57 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Pre-heating a Rotax? > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Raimo Toivio" > > All (on the northern hemisphere)! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Butcher" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 3:40 AM > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Pre-heating a Rotax? > > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jim Butcher" > > > > Talked to Andy about winter operations the other day. He suggested that > the > > Rotax is built with tolerances similar to an automobile engine and > therefore > > really doesn't need preheated. After all, do you preheat your car? > > > > Yes I really do! Always when below 0C. Also cockpit. > > Main factors: > > 1) preheated engine gives instantly heat for cockpit > > - safe: windows are immediately clean of ice and snow and no fog on them > - comfort: +20C leather feels better than -20C leather and less clothing > - health: no back injury for example > > 2) engine health: oil works immediately after start > > 3) fuel consumption: preheated car saves money > > - thumb of rule: cold engine takes extra fuel 2 dl > or more in every cold start > > 4) pollution: less fuel - less pollution > > - catalysator did not work until the engine is warm > > 5) time tables: preheated car starts "always" like under the palm tree > > - if cold, have you enough el-power to start the stiff engine? > - you can drive immediately, no warm-upp moms > > Sophisticated Engine Preheat Systems: > > - electric resistance element in water w thermostat connected to mains > (typically 500W and 2 hrs pre-heating is enough for -20C) > - programable and radio remote controlled heating system, > burns petrol or diesel (Webasto, Ebersbacher...) > (typically 2-5kW and 20 minutes is enough, needs also electric 50W) > - also integrated battery pre-heating and charging systems > - heated car garage, if possible (!) > > I have installed electric preheating system in my Rotax. > I will keep it on ALWAYS when below +10C (in or out). > It keeps also cockpit warm and dry (good for electronic bits). > > I have also water thermostat and heat exchanger in oil system. > Cannot comment how they work - engine has not fire upp yet. > > Regards, Raimo > =========== > Raimo M W Toivio > > OH-XRT #417 XS Mono, building hrs 1400 so far > OH-CVK C172 Skyhawk > OH-BLL Beech C45 > > 37500 Lempaala > Finland > tel + 358 3 3753 777 > fax + 358 3 3753 100 > gsm + 358 40 590 1450 > > raimo.toivio@rwm.fi > www.rwm.fi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:07 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Battery solenoids From: "Mark Burton" --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mark Burton" Is the Rotax rectifier regulator not a shunt regulator then? There's quite a lot of references on the web to it being of that type. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=7298#7298 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:43 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Europa-List: Re: Battery solenoids --> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee Mark Burton a crit : >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Mark Burton" > >Is the Rotax rectifier regulator not a shunt regulator then? There's quite a lot of references on the web to it being of that type. > > > I'm afraid it is not. I dismantled several of them, made a diagram, and we bench tested one with a Rotax alternator rotor and stator. We also made a comparison with a Schicke regulator. My buddy's students made a study of the thermal behaviour of the Rotax/Ducati and the Schicke. When I have some time, I'll publish a complete summary on the topic. Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:49 AM PST US From: D Wysong Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery solenoids --> Europa-List message posted by: D Wysong ... and then we'll all be eagerly awaiting the day when you and Herr Schicke set up an eBay store so we (across the pond) can get our hands this improved regulator/rectifier! :-) D ---------------- On 1/27/06, Gilles Thesee wrote: > > When I have some time, I'll publish a complete summary on the > topic. > > Regards, > Gilles Thesee > Grenoble, France > http://contrails.free.fr > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:33:50 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Europa-List: Prte-heating Rotax --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" Cheers, I have been following the cold weather defense discussion with interest since -20C is not unknown here as in Minnesota. I therefore learnt of the possible dangers of rust-inspiring condensation due to heating (?) Page 10-20 of the Rotax 914 'Serie' Operating Manual under 10.3.9 "Cold Weather Operation, Remedy" as move no. 3 states: --- Preheat engine using hot air. Does this change things at all? Ferg ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:40 AM PST US From: Paddy Clarke Subject: Europa-List: DOTH Sun29th Sibson --> Europa-List message posted by: Paddy Clarke Hi All, How about Sibson(Peterborough) for a DOTH on Sun?. Weather should be OK, if a bit chilly. 1200ish, voucher in Pilot. Cheers, Paddy Paddy Clarke Europa XS - 404 G-KIMM ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:16 AM PST US From: "Fred Fillinger" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery solenoids --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" An aircraft battery relay draws 1A or a bit less, dissipating about 15W, so a device that big shouldn't get hot. A 50W resistor is about the size of our little finger. I tried a latching relay, which draw zero, but takes a brief voltage to flip-flop 'em with a mere pushbutton switch. Found out two things. One was the spec sheet was deceptive about its power handling ability. The contact resistance was too high, and it would cause about one volt drop when the starter was engaged. We don't need that for best starter RPM, so watch any substitute, non-aircraft-type relay. A latching relay will not fail safe though. If in an emergency, like where a large current develops which doesn't pop a breaker, we may just have to wait for things to melt and hope a fire doesn't start! Reg, Fred F. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:17 AM PST US From: "Fred Fillinger" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery solenoids --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" Mark Burton wrote: > > Is the Rotax rectifier regulator not a shunt regulator then? > There's quite a lot of references on the web to it being of that type. > Circuit schematic suggests to me it is a shunt, bit not of classic variety. It appears it has to dissipate heat either no-load or high-load, for different reasons, but high-load looks worse to me. Four semicon devices maybe about near their rating in the watts department. Shouldn't design 'em that way. Reg, Fred F. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:25:28 PM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Re: Europa-List: A cry from the wilderness --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" Thanks! I finally managed by dint of reaching into the depths with a narrow-beaked locking pliers (Mole in UK) and fixing the head of the clevis pin so I could rotate it and poke the tails of the cotter pin around it. Took about 45 minutes and the frustration promotes a shower to rid the sweat......... Cheers, Ferg ----- Original Message ----- From: "D Wysong" Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 7:45 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: A cry from the wilderness | --> Europa-List message posted by: D Wysong | | Know any fishermen, Ferg? | | http://tinyurl.com/b9gad | | ... or ... | | http://tinyurl.com/bzk73 | | Good luck! | | D | | ---------- | Fergus Kyle wrote: | > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" | > | > Cheers, | > I come to you again with another desparate moan. You | > mustn't think my build is all frantic patching and hole-filling, but | > occasionally a 'blip' occurs and in these moments of abject blackness I turn | > to you, fellow buiilders - of the Classic persuasion. | > Cast your mind back to the fabrication of the flap actuating | > pushrod. Recall if you will the front end comprises a clevis fork which | > connects with a pair of odd-shaped plates atop the starboard retracting arm. | > It s does this with a cleis pin up in the musty recesses of the forward | > tunnel area. The clevis pin is held in by a cotter pin. So is mine. | > I inserted it, gave the cotter pin tails a perfunctory bend each | > and marked the page with a red dot - to confirm that there was more to be | > done before one could move on forever. This has been my practice from the | > first in order to prove to my giggling inspector what a serious and | > introspective little botherer I am. | > Yes, you guessed it - the whole thing went together deliciously | > months ago to my great personal pleasure. Ah, but lurking inside was the | > missed red dot - the half assembled @#$%?& cotter pin. As you may imagine, | > it now sits about 8 inches into the tunnel mouth, in the upper starboard | > corner, with about one inch of free space around it. | > We all know my inspector is going to discover this anomaly | > within the first few moments of his scrutiny. Uncorrected, this travesty | > will set a precedent for the remaining Search for Error routine and all my | > mistakes will come tumbling into the sunshine. I am undone............ | > UNLESS of course I can bend the ends of this little @#$%?& into | > the benign smile all cotter pins should display. Here's where you come in! | > Out there in aeroplane-land lives a quiet contemplative genius with the | > answer to my quandary. You have only to release his name - and my day is | > made ( tel. number a bonus). OR if you are that person, I beg you to reveal | > the secret that will free my ravaged soul. | > I won't tell Inspector Grinch I cheated either. | > Really, | > Ferg | > engine hanging nearby | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | | | | | | | | | | | | ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:24:38 PM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery solenoids --> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee >Circuit schematic suggests to me it is a shunt, bit not of >classic variety. It appears it has to dissipate heat either >no-load or high-load, for different reasons, but high-load >looks worse to me. > > Fred and all, According to measurements we took two years ago, it appears the Rotax/Ducati heat dissipation is proportional to the output. As you said, a shunt type regulator would dissipate much heat whatever the load. In order to help clarify matters, I hurriedly wrote this little page : http://contrails.free.fr/elec_ducati_en.php Further info in the future, when I sort out my previous documents and translate them. FWIW, Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:33:46 PM PST US From: "JR(Bob) Gowing" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Angle of Attack/ Dynon --> Europa-List message posted by: "JR(Bob) Gowing" Kevin Andy Draper told me not and went on to say the stall warner was more suitable. JR (Bob) Gowing UK Kit 327 in Oz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin And Ann Klinefelter" Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 12:48 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Angle of Attack/ Dynon > --> Europa-List message posted by: Kevin And Ann Klinefelter > > has anyone with the Dynon EFIS unit got the AOA option working on an XS? > I am wondering if the pitot/static location under the wing works well > with the Dynon AOA? > > Kevin > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > >[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fergus Kyle > >To: europa-list@matronics.com > >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Angle of Attack > > > >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Graham Singleton" > >To: > >Subject: Europa-List: Angle of Attack > > > > > >| --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton > > > >| > >| From: "josok" > >| > >| --> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" > >| > >| Since i am a very green pilot, and do only dream about flying my Europa, > >please > >| do not take this attempt too serious. I am flying the club's Supercub, and > > > >especially > >| on skies it asks for a fixed, 60 miles final, and because of the > >white-out, > >| you only set the descent rate at about 100 ft/min. The variable in this > >| quotation is the settle down point of course. But since there are no > >numbers > >| on these very long and very white runways, it does not matter. In my > >dreams i > >| land the Europa the same way. Nail the speed on final, and set the descent > > > >rate > >| at an agreeable speed. Why would this work or not work? > >| > >| Jos > >| In the flare, or rather when very close to the ground,last foot, the > >tailplane loses the effect of the downwash from the wing. This is ground > >effect of course. The result is that unless you do something about it, the > >nose will drop and you will bounce. As soon as you feel this nose drop pull > >the stick back quickly to prevent it. > >| Simplest way is to feel for the ground with the tailwheel and as soon as > >it touches stick hard back. The plane can't pitch up so it just quits > >flying. > >| Graham > > > >Jos, > > Graham has it! Another aspect is that you may have different > >weights on approach - passenger, luggage, full tank - and the difference > >between that and solo, no baggage and tanks toward empty - can be a > >significant percentage of the total weight. Like most aircraft the Europa > >exhibits very different drag characterisitics at extreme weights. You want > >to know what approach speed will give you Graham's 'feel-for-the-ground' > >values at round-out. That comes with care and research. But the approach > >speed does not stay fixed as with a Supercub on skis. Because the Europa is > >slick and smooth it floats when too fast. The reverse is even > >worse.......... > >Good luck, and use a long runway to practice. > >Ferg > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:45 PM PST US From: "Fred Fillinger" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Battery solenoids --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" Gilles Thesee wrote: > > According to measurements we took two years ago, it appears the > Rotax/Ducati heat dissipation is proportional to the output. As you > said, a shunt type regulator would dissipate much heat whatever the load. If the TO-220 case semiconductor pair are SCRs, then in that circuit "abuse" would be proportional to load. It still has to shunt in proprtion to lighter load, but perhaps with less abuse. Maybe phase lag at the high freq of the many coils? Anyway, it's not a series regulator, but appears to dissipate heat like one, proprtional to load. So, if all true, it doesn't matter what it's called. It's regulator....which can get hot. But that's not important right now. :-) I mounted mine inside the cabin to help matters. Nice work on your site, BTW. Reg, Fred F.