---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 01/28/06: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:27 AM - Fw: Alternator Lamp (Rowland Carson) 2. 02:35 AM - Re: Battery solenoids (Mark Burton) 3. 03:16 AM - Battery solenoids (Richard Holder) 4. 03:30 AM - Rotax rectifier/regulator (was Battery solenoids) (Gilles Thesee) 5. 03:39 AM - Re: Battery solenoids (MR PAUL MITCHELL) 6. 05:01 AM - Re: Fw: Alternator Lamp (SPurpura@aol.com) 7. 10:53 AM - Re: Rotax regulator (Richard Holder) 8. 01:00 PM - Re: Fw: Alternator Lamp (Richard Holder) 9. 01:00 PM - Alternator Lamp (Richard Holder) 10. 01:08 PM - Digital Level (David Watts) 11. 01:23 PM - [ Justin Kennedy ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares) 12. 01:43 PM - Re: Rotax regulator (Gilles Thesee) 13. 04:50 PM - Re: Fw: Alternator Lamp (gdhetrick) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:27:56 AM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: Europa-List: Fwd: Alternator Lamp --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson This message was sent to the defunct forum address, so I have forwarded it: >From: Timothy.P.Ward >To: >Subject: Alternator Lamp >Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 9:48:33 +1300 > > >Hi all, >Have had the alternator lamp come on during flights recently. On my >last flight I had to eventually save battery power and load shed as >the GPS shut down. >Before delving into the electrical side, of which I am no expert, >has anyone else had problems with their alternator/regulator? I have >used the exact wiring diagram Europa supplied for my Classic >monowheel. Engine has only 50hrs on it. First started when we had >cold weather. However I did have a problem with the battery +ve >connection which has been rectified. Any thoughts? Will check all >connections? >Cheers, >Tim regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson (retiring) Europa Club Membership Secretary - email for info! | Europa 435 G-ROWI (750 hours building) PFA #16532 | e-mail website ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:35:08 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Battery solenoids From: "Mark Burton" --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mark Burton" Fred kindly supplied me with a copy of the schematic. It looks like a shunt regulator to me. It makes more sense if the two transistors marked tp154e are actually N channel MOSFETs with body diodes incorporated (or do some SCRs have a reverse conduction mode?) Otherwise, the circuit is missing the two diodes needed to connect the -ve side of the generator coil to ground. If the above is true, the dissipation at high load curents is simply the voltage drop across the body diodes + the voltage drop across the other two diodes (mr2510) times the load current. Google doesn't return any useful hits for tp154e. Bit worried about the two resistors marked 47 because as soon as the input goes +ve the transistor/SCR/MOSFET would turn on and immediately short out the coil. Can't believe that's right! If the above is true, my original point about the external load of the battery solenoid reducing the dissipation in the regulator is also true in the situation where the total current drawn from the regulator is sufficiently low to allow the voltage to rise to the point where the shunt transistors turn on. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=7513#7513 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:16:44 AM PST US From: Richard Holder Subject: Europa-List: Battery solenoids --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder > Richard, > I believe it is the coil current that is generating the > heat, not the load. Think it must be faulty. Any idea > where I can get one of these master switch operated > solenoids with the 0.1 amp coil load. > Paul Paul If you want a relay to operate the battery connection to the starter you will need a big relay, and a manually operated "big red switch" from a rally car is better. For a relay to be operateded by your master switch (without taking the starter load) RS have them. 308-0611 at 2.50 for SPNO (Normally open) and a switching current max of 40 amps. Coil power 1.6 watts = 0.13 amps. Page 1-1553 in their latest catalogue or at a store near you ! HTH Richard ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:30:27 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Europa-List: Rotax rectifier/regulator (was Battery solenoids) --> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee Mark Burton a crit : >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Mark Burton" > >Fred kindly supplied me with a copy of the schematic. > >It looks like a shunt regulator to me. > >It makes more sense if the two transistors marked tp154e are actually N channel MOSFETs with body diodes incorporated (or do some SCRs have a reverse conduction mode?) Otherwise, the circuit is missing the two diodes needed to connect the -ve side of the generator coil to ground. If the above is true, the dissipation at high load curents is simply the voltage drop across the body diodes + the voltage drop across the other two diodes (mr2510) times the load current. > >Google doesn't return any useful hits for tp154e. > >Bit worried about the two resistors marked 47 because as soon as the input goes +ve the transistor/SCR/MOSFET would turn on and immediately short out the coil. Can't believe that's right! > >If the above is true, my original point about the external load of the battery solenoid reducing the dissipation in the regulator is also true in the situation where the total current drawn from the regulator is sufficiently low to allow the voltage to rise to the point where the shunt transistors turn on. > > > Hi all, Just added some thermal data on the rectifier page (http://contrails.free.fr/elec_ducati_en.php). As soon as we have some time, we'll craft something more elaborate. This little research work is now two years old, and we'll have to delve into old files and reports. Would the schematic you're talking about be the preliminary diagram I published two years ago ? Easy to tell, as it has some French terms ("valeur") and question marks in it. If it is the case, the TP154E, wrongly depicted as transistors, are actually thyristors, IIRC. They are proprietary component, and cannot be found in any public catalog. My buddy Jrme had to run them on a bench to determine their specs. What really matters to homebuilders : - On must use reasonable loads (10-12 amps continuous) - Some means of cooling will improve reliability - The regulator will shut down if the sense wire is disconnected, and needs sufficient voltage to start to life. Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:39:33 AM PST US From: "MR PAUL MITCHELL" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Battery solenoids --> Europa-List message posted by: "MR PAUL MITCHELL" Richard, Many thanks, As soon as I sent mine to you, I got yours. I have ordered one from RS. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Holder" Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 11:05 AM Subject: Europa-List: Battery solenoids > --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder > >> Richard, > >> I believe it is the coil current that is generating the >> heat, not the load. Think it must be faulty. Any idea >> where I can get one of these master switch operated >> solenoids with the 0.1 amp coil load. > >> Paul > > Paul > > If you want a relay to operate the battery connection to > the starter you will need a big relay, and a manually > operated "big red switch" from a rally car is better. > > For a relay to be operateded by your master switch > (without taking the starter load) RS have them. > > 308-0611 at 2.50 > > for SPNO (Normally open) and a switching current max of 40 > amps. > > Coil power 1.6 watts = 0.13 amps. > > Page 1-1553 in their latest catalogue or at a store near you ! > > HTH > > Richard > > > -- > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:01:25 AM PST US From: SPurpura@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fwd: Alternator Lamp --> Europa-List message posted by: SPurpura@aol.com CHECK YOUR REGULATOR WITH AN OHM METER,MINE WENT BAD AT 100 HRS. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:53:24 AM PST US From: Richard Holder Subject: Europa-List: Re: Rotax regulator --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder Gilles Thesee wrote: >> Do you think it is right if the alternator needs to >> be switched off manually for any reason that it >> should be done through the C terminal (switching an >> amp or two) rather than the B+/R terminal which is >> perhaps pushing out 15 - 20 amps. > The Rotax regulator will normally shut down when the C > terminal is grounded (zero volt). Can't predict what it > does when just disconnected. What if it doesn't tame > the regulator output ? Is there some way of checking this ? Perhaps on your student's test rig ? > Have you considered including a relay in the B/R to bus > circuit ? Bob Nuckolls' Aeroelectric figure Z 16 could > be of interest. My design is a variation on Bob's > theme, with small changes due to the different > regulator. I just didn't want to use a physical switch/cb/relay to go from an overvolt situation of maybe 30 A to nothing. It would not be good for the switch/cb/relay, IF disconnecting the C terminal turns off the regulator then there will be no actual disconnection spark anywhere, it will be in the electronics. > The C wire is a sense wire, so AWG 22 and 5 amps is > about right. 5 amps actual seems like a lot for a sense wire. That means that the regulator B+/R terminals produce up to 24A of which 5A goes back into the regulator ? I have seen your fine pictures of the cleaned out regulator. It appears that B+ and R are connected together inside anyway ! Could you send me the schematic of the circuit inside there ? I have a friend who dabbles in obscure components. He looked up TP154E. It is a Thrystor 800 volt 25 A 40mA and an alternative would be 2N6509 which in my catalogue is about 1 GBP - say 2 euros ! > Hope this helps, It does and I hope I have helped in return. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:00:02 PM PST US From: Richard Holder Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fwd: Alternator Lamp --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder >> Have had the alternator lamp come on during flights >> recently. On my last flight I had to eventually save >> battery power and load shed as the GPS shut down. >> Before delving into the electrical side, of which I >> am no expert, has anyone else had problems with their >> alternator/regulator? I have used the exact wiring >> diagram Europa supplied for my Classic monowheel. >> Engine has only 50hrs on it. First started when we >> had cold weather. However I did have a problem with >> the battery +ve connection which has been rectified. >> Any thoughts? Will check all connections? Cheers, Tim I assume it is a complete failure ? I have an intermittent failure to charge ! I am sure it is a dry solder joint somewhere inside the regulator which costs 150 and has components worth 10 in it (max !) If yours is a permanent failure it is much easier to diagnose. You need to take the orange connector off the regulator and add some small capacity wires into the faston connectors - being careful not to leave any shorts. use the orange connector with its existing wires as away of keeping the additional wires in place. Then connect up your voltmeter and stand back - staring the engine. First but the voltmeter in AC volts mode across the GG terminals (the cables to the engine). It should read 14 tick over - 30 ish at high revs. If not - then the problem is the stator The change to the B+ terminal and to earth. WHen the engine is running is that at 12.5 volts DC (if so then it is the regulator, if it is at 14 volts then the problem is further towards your "alternator" switch. Keep moving that way until you find where the break is. Health and Safety. Propellors are dangerous ! if you are not exactly clear about what I am describing - ask me again direct and I will make a bigger effort :-) Do not let any of the temporary wire short to anything ! you will need to charge the battery up to get the engine to start, and if it continues to not charge then you will have to keep charging up the battery. Or come up and discuss it when you next "drop" into town :-) HTH Richard Holder ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:00:03 PM PST US From: Richard Holder Subject: Europa-List: Alternator Lamp --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder Tim Actually on mine - additional thought - I never got the warning light on. In fact it was a sign that it wouldn't charge if the WL ("low volts") didn't come on with the battery master switch on and the alt switch on but no engine running ! Richard ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:08:37 PM PST US From: "David Watts" Subject: Europa-List: Digital Level --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Watts" For UK Europa people. I wandered into LIDLs today to see if they had any of their usual bargains and I couldn't believe my eyes. A Digital Level that is virtually identical to my America Smart Level but priced at just 23 UK Pounds. (I seem to remember I paid around 100 US Dollars for my latest one some 2 years ago). Obviously I don't know what their stock levels are but the store I went into had a fair few left (minus the one I just had to add to my toolbox). Dave Watts G-BXDY 1,100 hours and just about to ground the aircraft for a couple of weeks to change the NSI VP prop for an Airmaster. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:23:46 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: [ Justin Kennedy ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! From: Email List Photo Shares --> Europa-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Justin Kennedy Lists: Europa-List Subject: Classic Scoop and Cowl Flaps http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/Justin@systemwise.co.uk.01.28.2006/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:43:27 PM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Europa-List: Re: Rotax regulator --> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee Hi Richard, >> What if it doesn't tame >>the regulator output ? >> >> > >Is there some way of checking this ? Perhaps on your >student's test rig ? > > > Hmm, remember that was two years ago. I'm afraid the alternator might now lie on a forgotten shelf... >>Have you considered including a relay in the B/R to bus >>circuit ? Bob Nuckolls' Aeroelectric figure Z 16 could >>be of interest. My design is a variation on Bob's >>theme, with small changes due to the different >>regulator. >> >> > >I just didn't want to use a physical switch/cb/relay to go >from an overvolt situation of maybe 30 A to nothing. > > It >would not be good for the switch/cb/relay, IF >disconnecting the C terminal turns off the regulator then >there will be no actual disconnection spark anywhere, > Grounding the C wire will shut down the regulator. That is, IF it is working properly. But then where does that OV condition come from ? >>The C wire is a sense wire, so AWG 22 and 5 amps is >>about right. >> >> > >5 amps actual seems like a lot for a sense wire. That >means that the regulator B+/R terminals produce up to 24A >of which 5A goes back into the regulator ? > > 5 amps is the usual CB rating for AWG 22 wire. And for mechanical reasons, AWG 22 is about the smallest wire used for wiring light aircraft. Remember, if your crowbar fires, the current will flow from the bus bar via the OV CB, to the ground, tripping the CB in the process. >I have seen your fine pictures of the cleaned out >regulator. It appears that B+ and R are connected together >inside anyway ! > > Yes >Could you send me the schematic of the circuit inside there ? > > Will do. Just give me some time to sort the 40+ MB of data Jerome just sent me. I would like to publish something really up to date. >I have a friend who dabbles in obscure components. He >looked up TP154E. It is a Thrystor 800 volt 25 A 40mA and >an alternative would be 2N6509 which in my catalogue is >about 1 GBP - say 2 euros ! > > Great ! Thank you, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:36 PM PST US From: "gdhetrick" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fwd: Alternator Lamp --> Europa-List message posted by: "gdhetrick" Sam, What regulator did you use as a replacement? Thanks, Dale ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 4:54 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Fwd: Alternator Lamp > --> Europa-List message posted by: SPurpura@aol.com > > CHECK YOUR REGULATOR WITH AN OHM METER,MINE WENT BAD AT 100 HRS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >