Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:30 AM - Classic Exhaust Downpipes (William Mills)
2. 01:07 AM - Re: Classic Exhaust Downpipes (Pete Lawless)
3. 02:04 AM - Re: Propeller discussions (ivor.phillips)
4. 05:25 AM - Re: Propeller discussions (Paul McAllister)
5. 06:33 AM - Re: Propeller discussions (Duncan McFadyean)
6. 06:35 AM - Re: Propeller Discussion (Robert Borger)
7. 09:44 AM - Re: Propeller discussions (KARL HEINDL)
8. 10:23 AM - Re: Propeller discussions (lmorgan822@aol.com)
9. 11:29 AM - Re: Propeller discussions (josok)
10. 12:31 PM - Re: Re: Propeller discussions (Duncan McFadyean)
11. 02:54 PM - Fuel pump wiring (Simon Smith)
12. 03:11 PM - Re: Propeller discussions (karelvranken)
13. 05:07 PM - Re: Fuel pump wiring (Paul McAllister)
14. 09:06 PM - re MT Propellors (Peter Timm)
15. 11:20 PM - Re: Re: Propeller discussions (lmorgan822@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Classic Exhaust Downpipes |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills" <william@wrmills.plus.com>
Dear All,
I have just purchased a third set of Classic exhaust downpipes. The original rear
port downpipe (mild steel) fractured and blew a hole on the outside of the
bend after 485 hours. This affected the engine so badly that I had to limit
the power to produce an extended glide to make an emergency down wind landing.
I replaced the whole exhaust system (stainless steel).
I have just discovered a hairline fracture with grey exhaust deposit on the outside
of the bend on the starboard rear downpipe, so I have purchased a set of
replacement downpipes at 936 hours. I may decide to replace the lot, or both
rear, or one pipe at a time, to see how the others last, but I am not quite sure.
It might be useful if others who have had to replace all or part of the exhaust
systems, on either Classics or XSs give a short report so that we can see if
there is any trend associated with hours and position of any fracture.
I thought the first fracture might have been caused by the box having to hang off
the down pipes, causing additional stress when operating over rough ground,
so I asked Andy to weld some hanger lugs on the replacement box so that I could
support it off the crankcase at the front and off the engine bearers at the
back, but that did not appear to be any help. In fact the second set only lasted
451 hours!
If anyone has any bright ideas, I would be most interested.
Still on exhaust matters, has anyone tried to seal the leakage from the spigot
and socket joints between the down pipes and the box stubs? I still get some
CO in the cockpit when climbing under full power, so I was thinking of sealing
them with RTV silicone. Has anyone tried that?
Best wishes,
William
Message 2
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| Subject: | Classic Exhaust Downpipes |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Pete Lawless" <pete@lawless.info>
Morning William
G-RMAC is a Classic with 912ul and had the originally supplied mild
steel exhaust. The front left down pipe split at 180 hours. The split
followed the line of the weld where the pipe had been manufactured and
was approximately 2 inches long. Now running with stainless, but only
done 40 hours or so on that. Having heard about early problems with
downpipes I had supported my silencer box with a strap to the engine
mount, obviously this did not help and I have now removed it.
Regards
Pete
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
Mills
Sent: 11 February 2006 08:26
Subject: Europa-List: Classic Exhaust Downpipes
--> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills"
<william@wrmills.plus.com>
Dear All,
I have just purchased a third set of Classic exhaust downpipes. The
original rear port downpipe (mild steel) fractured and blew a hole on
the outside of the bend after 485 hours. This affected the engine so
badly that I had to limit the power to produce an extended glide to make
an emergency down wind landing. I replaced the whole exhaust system
(stainless steel).
I have just discovered a hairline fracture with grey exhaust deposit on
the outside of the bend on the starboard rear downpipe, so I have
purchased a set of replacement downpipes at 936 hours. I may decide to
replace the lot, or both rear, or one pipe at a time, to see how the
others last, but I am not quite sure.
It might be useful if others who have had to replace all or part of the
exhaust systems, on either Classics or XSs give a short report so that
we can see if there is any trend associated with hours and position of
any fracture.
I thought the first fracture might have been caused by the box having to
hang off the down pipes, causing additional stress when operating over
rough ground, so I asked Andy to weld some hanger lugs on the
replacement box so that I could support it off the crankcase at the
front and off the engine bearers at the back, but that did not appear to
be any help. In fact the second set only lasted 451 hours!
If anyone has any bright ideas, I would be most interested.
Still on exhaust matters, has anyone tried to seal the leakage from the
spigot and socket joints between the down pipes and the box stubs? I
still get some CO in the cockpit when climbing under full power, so I
was thinking of sealing them with RTV silicone. Has anyone tried that?
Best wishes,
William
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Propeller discussions |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "ivor.phillips" <ivor.phillips@ntlworld.com>
Hi Paul
Bob Harrison has been using a MT three blade constant speed propeller for
the last Five years on his Jabiru 3300,
Give him a call if you need more info! ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk
----- Original Message -----
Ivor Phillips
From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 1:49 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Propeller discussions
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister"
> <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
>
> Hi all,
>
> Among all of the CS propeller discussions I never see MT mentioned. They
> make 2 two blade propellers, on electric, that the other is hydraulic.
> The
> electric one is the same weight as an Airmaster and the diameter of the
> propeller is 180 cm / 70.8 inches, slightly less than an Airmaster. As
> far
> as prices goes, I seem to recall the Airmaster was something north of
> $6000.00 US which is similar to the MT. I know that the Airplast and
> Woodcomp's are a lot less than this.
>
> So... are there any Europa's out there with MT's, are they any good. Why
> am
> I asking this ?, well I am now of the opinion that a product that needs to
> be serviced in another country is way too much hassle. The MT are
> assembled
> & serviced in the US.
>
> Paul
Message 4
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| Subject: | Propeller discussions |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
Jeff,
I just looked at the manual and under Maximum diameter they have 72" / 183
cm, but then under that they state the weight and in brackets "Data shown
for 64" diameter and 10" spinner"
So.... I don't really know. You would think that you get a reduction in
diameter for increasing the number of blades for a given HP capacity.
My interest in this whole topic is two fold. John Hurst once told me that
the Whirlwind propeller was good for an additional 20 knots at 17,500' over
the Airmaster. At first glance this doesn't make much sense, usually a
multi bladed propeller is more efficient at altitude. John agreed but
seemed to think that the Warp drive blades were just not very efficient.
Given that no A:B comparisons were made as a controlled experiment, then its
just an opinion.
Most of my flying is long cross country trips, typically in the 500 ~ 800 nm
range. A propeller that would give me 20 more knots at altitude is
seductive.
My other interest in the whole topic is service, 6~8 week cycle times isn't
very good. I suspect that from the US the issue same issues would exist for
the European sourced products. So, am I about to spend +6k for another
propeller that might go faster and can provide local service.... probably
not, but I am just curious as to why the MT has never caught on in the
Europa community.
Cheers, Paul
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Propeller discussions |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
<<I am just curious as to why the MT has never caught on in the
> Europa community.
>
> Cheers, Paul>>
Could be something to do with the price!
The MT tends to be heavier too.
There is a lot of experience with the MT on hte 4-seater BanBi; maybe that
is more to do with "certification", alhtough one gets hte impression that
the MT prop is custom-matched by the manufacturer to hte particular
aircraft.
Perhaps Gilles could comment.
Duncan Mcf.
Message 6
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Cc: Robert Borger <rlborger@mac.com>
| Subject: | RE: Propeller Discussion |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Robert Borger <rlborger@mac.com>
Fellow Europaphiles:
My 2-bits, for what it's worth.
I like the WhirlWind propellers. Decent price for the 2-blade
version. The 4-blade would look so sexy on the Europa, like a mini-
Spitfire. (If you want to put out the extra $5K or so)
As you can see below in the signature block, I've bought an
Airmaster. Reason: Airmaster is electrically controlled. WhirlWind
is hydraulic controlled. The hydraulic controller has to be mounted
where my 2nd alternator is mounted. Choice: 2nd alternator or
hydraulic controller. With my all-electric panel and IFR setup, I
had to go with the 2nd alternator. If I went simple daytime, VFR
(which will probably be 95% of my flying anyway) and vacuum gages, I
might have been able to get away with the Europa electrical system
and could have gone WhirlWind hydraulic C/S prop.
Like I said, just my 2-bits for what it's worth. Please don't anyone
follow my lead, just because I've tried it. I still don't know how
it will work as I'm still months and months and months away from flying.
Good building and great flying,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
(85%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch
system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in with Singleton
Mod, outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing
incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in, Mod 70 done, baggage bay
in. Completing the firewall-aft fuel system and fitting the
instrument panel. Working in - 24 Instrument Panel, 25 Electrical,
28 Flaps, 29 Main Gear, 30 Fuel System, 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35
Doors, 37 Finishing. Airmaster arrived 29 Sep 05. Seat arrived from
Oregon Aero. Preparing ROTAX 914 for installation. Singleton
firewall mod has arrived.
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
Message 7
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| Subject: | Propeller discussions |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" <kheindl@msn.com>
Paul,
Are yu sure about the 72"?. I am not near my Europa at the moment, but I
could have sworn that that should read 62".
I had investigated the Hoffmann (also German) propeller, because it is widey
used on certified aircraft with Rotax, i.e. Katana, Dimona and other
motorgliders. It is 2-blade, cs, and feathering.
It is unlikely to be interesting for the Europa because: it is hydraulic,
twice as heavy as the Airmaster setup, and twice as expensive as the
Airmaster.
As far as I know, Airmaster don't actually make propellers. They make the
AC200 control box and electronics etc. and fit it with the Warp Drive.
I am also planning to upgrade this year and my present choice is the new
Woodcomp SR3000 with twin-blade of 170cm (67"). Anything longer would not be
wise on the Europa, and definately not on the mono. Reason for the 2-blade
version is reduced drag whenever I am in glider mode (one of these days).
Karl
>From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
>To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Europa-List: Propeller discussions
>Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 07:21:03 -0600
>
>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister"
><paul.mcallister@qia.net>
>
>Jeff,
>
>I just looked at the manual and under Maximum diameter they have 72" / 183
>cm, but then under that they state the weight and in brackets "Data shown
>for 64" diameter and 10" spinner"
>
>So.... I don't really know. You would think that you get a reduction in
>diameter for increasing the number of blades for a given HP capacity.
>
>My interest in this whole topic is two fold. John Hurst once told me that
>the Whirlwind propeller was good for an additional 20 knots at 17,500' over
>the Airmaster. At first glance this doesn't make much sense, usually a
>multi bladed propeller is more efficient at altitude. John agreed but
>seemed to think that the Warp drive blades were just not very efficient.
>Given that no A:B comparisons were made as a controlled experiment, then
>its
>just an opinion.
>
>Most of my flying is long cross country trips, typically in the 500 ~ 800
>nm
>range. A propeller that would give me 20 more knots at altitude is
>seductive.
>
>My other interest in the whole topic is service, 6~8 week cycle times isn't
>very good. I suspect that from the US the issue same issues would exist
>for
>the European sourced products. So, am I about to spend +6k for another
>propeller that might go faster and can provide local service.... probably
>not, but I am just curious as to why the MT has never caught on in the
>Europa community.
>
>Cheers, Paul
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Propeller discussions |
--> Europa-List message posted by: lmorgan822@aol.com
Look for Vari-Prop at Sun'n'fun. Bolt on hydraulic system with blades custom fitted
to your application. Lighter weight than Airmaster.
-----Original Message-----
From: KARL HEINDL <kheindl@msn.com>
Sent: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 17:39:45 +0000
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Propeller discussions
--> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" <kheindl@msn.com>
Paul,
Are yu sure about the 72"?. I am not near my Europa at the moment, but I
could have sworn that that should read 62".
I had investigated the Hoffmann (also German) propeller, because it is widey
used on certified aircraft with Rotax, i.e. Katana, Dimona and other
motorgliders. It is 2-blade, cs, and feathering.
It is unlikely to be interesting for the Europa because: it is hydraulic,
twice as heavy as the Airmaster setup, and twice as expensive as the
Airmaster.
As far as I know, Airmaster don't actually make propellers. They make the
AC200 control box and electronics etc. and fit it with the Warp Drive.
I am also planning to upgrade this year and my present choice is the new
Woodcomp SR3000 with twin-blade of 170cm (67"). Anything longer would not be
wise on the Europa, and definately not on the mono. Reason for the 2-blade
version is reduced drag whenever I am in glider mode (one of these days).
Karl
>From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
>To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Europa-List: Propeller discussions
>Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 07:21:03 -0600
>
>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister"
><paul.mcallister@qia.net>
>
>Jeff,
>
>I just looked at the manual and under Maximum diameter they have 72" / 183
>cm, but then under that they state the weight and in brackets "Data shown
>for 64" diameter and 10" spinner"
>
>So.... I don't really know. You would think that you get a reduction in
>diameter for increasing the number of blades for a given HP capacity.
>
>My interest in this whole topic is two fold. John Hurst once told me that
>the Whirlwind propeller was good for an additional 20 knots at 17,500' over
>the Airmaster. At first glance this doesn't make much sense, usually a
>multi bladed propeller is more efficient at altitude. John agreed but
>seemed to think that the Warp drive blades were just not very efficient.
>Given that no A:B comparisons were made as a controlled experiment, then
>its
>just an opinion.
>
>Most of my flying is long cross country trips, typically in the 500 ~ 800
>nm
>range. A propeller that would give me 20 more knots at altitude is
>seductive.
>
>My other interest in the whole topic is service, 6~8 week cycle times isn't
>very good. I suspect that from the US the issue same issues would exist
>for
>the European sourced products. So, am I about to spend +6k for another
>propeller that might go faster and can provide local service.... probably
>not, but I am just curious as to why the MT has never caught on in the
>Europa community.
>
>Cheers, Paul
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | RE: Propeller discussions |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
Hi Imorgan,
This list has seen your advertising for Vari-prop before. Since i will be missing
Sun 'n Fun this year, and maybe one or two other Europhiles also, could you
elaborate a bit? Are you connected to that company or just enthusiastic about
it? Google finds variprop, excellent propellers for boats!
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
----------------
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Propeller discussions |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
There is a vague reference to it (including photo) at:
http://www.beltedair.com/
But I couldn't find anything else either.
Duncan Mcf.
----- Original Message -----
From: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 7:26 PM
Subject: Europa-List: RE: Propeller discussions
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
>
> Hi Imorgan,
>
> This list has seen your advertising for Vari-prop before. Since i will be
> missing Sun 'n Fun this year, and maybe one or two other Europhiles also,
> could you elaborate a bit? Are you connected to that company or just
> enthusiastic about it? Google finds variprop, excellent propellers for
> boats!
>
> Regards,
>
> Jos Okhuijsen
> ----------------
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Fuel pump wiring |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Simon Smith" <jodel@nildram.co.uk>
Hi all,
I was just looking at the wiring for the Fuel pumps on the 914 and I came up
with a question.
FP1 is wired off the alternator. Would it make more sense to earth it
direct to the engine (no battery etc in the equation) or would you just go
to the normal -ve bus bar (or even the battery)?
cheers
Simon
G-BZTN kit 504
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Propeller discussions |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "karelvranken" <karelvranken@hotmail.com>
Paul,
You never heard of Rutan (Voyager) about MT?
Karel Vranken.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 2:49 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Propeller discussions
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister"
> <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
>
> Hi all,
>
> Among all of the CS propeller discussions I never see MT mentioned. They
> make 2 two blade propellers, on electric, that the other is hydraulic.
> The
> electric one is the same weight as an Airmaster and the diameter of the
> propeller is 180 cm / 70.8 inches, slightly less than an Airmaster. As
> far
> as prices goes, I seem to recall the Airmaster was something north of
> $6000.00 US which is similar to the MT. I know that the Airplast and
> Woodcomp's are a lot less than this.
>
> So... are there any Europa's out there with MT's, are they any good. Why
> am
> I asking this ?, well I am now of the opinion that a product that needs to
> be serviced in another country is way too much hassle. The MT are
> assembled
> & serviced in the US.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Fuel pump wiring |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
Simon,
I would encourage you to take a look at the Ground blocks offered by B&C.
Take a look at
http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?26X358218 and scroll
down the page.
I used a 48 tab block on the inside of the firewall and a 24 pin on the
engine side. The ground blocks were bolted together with a brass through
bolt. Using this type of approach gives you a single point ground for
everything, and its the first step to keeping ground loops out of your
system. This is where I grounded my fuel pumps to.
Regards, Paul
Message 14
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| Subject: | re MT Propellors |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Peter Timm <cptimm@telus.net>
On my recent trip to Australia I had the opportunity to fly the French MCR
Sportster, a further development of the original Banby. My friend's aircraft
was a bit lighter than my Europa, due to a carbon fibre fuselage with metal
wings and T tail and less luggage capacity( 20 lb total). However, its climb
performance with a three-bladed MT propeller and two aboard was a solid 1500
ft/min. up to the 4000 ft ceiling. My friend claims a 150 knt cruise as
well, which I can not verify. The propeller is considerably heavier and much
more expensive than the Airmaster. The kit is also more expensive than the
latest Europa kit price and the wings have to be built in factory jigs; they
offer a builder assist program at the factory in France. The engine is a
Rotax 912 S, same as mine and John mentioned 22 kg as the weight of the
propeller assembly. I also met with a couple of Europa owners in the Perth
area. More about this in a future Europa Flyer.
Peter Timm
# 110, C-GIET
Pemberton, B.C.
Canada
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Propeller discussions |
--> Europa-List message posted by: lmorgan822@aol.com
Hi Jos,
We have both a marine and aircraft prop. We have not built our web site for the
A/C prop yet. This weekend I am testing a 4 bladed variant on a T-51 with a
Rotax 914. We have 2, 3, and 4 bladed props, and two hub sizes. The larger
hubs are designed for the direct drive engines in the 180 to 350 HP, the smaller
hubs are designed for the Rotax, Jabiru, etc, although currently running on
a 200 HP Chevy V6 in an RV6 with a reduction drive.
I am the owner of the company. We are an Oregon LLC.
If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact me at lmorgan822@hotmail.com.
503-804-5508.
Thank you for your inquiry.
Larry Morgan
-----Original Message-----
From: josok <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
Subject: Europa-List: RE: Propeller discussions
--> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
Hi Imorgan,
This list has seen your advertising for Vari-prop before. Since i will be
missing Sun 'n Fun this year, and maybe one or two other Europhiles also, could
you elaborate a bit? Are you connected to that company or just enthusiastic
about it? Google finds variprop, excellent propellers for boats!
Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
----------------
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