---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 02/11/06: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:30 AM - Classic Exhaust Downpipes (William Mills) 2. 01:07 AM - Re: Classic Exhaust Downpipes (Pete Lawless) 3. 02:04 AM - Re: Propeller discussions (ivor.phillips) 4. 05:25 AM - Re: Propeller discussions (Paul McAllister) 5. 06:33 AM - Re: Propeller discussions (Duncan McFadyean) 6. 06:35 AM - Re: Propeller Discussion (Robert Borger) 7. 09:44 AM - Re: Propeller discussions (KARL HEINDL) 8. 10:23 AM - Re: Propeller discussions (lmorgan822@aol.com) 9. 11:29 AM - Re: Propeller discussions (josok) 10. 12:31 PM - Re: Re: Propeller discussions (Duncan McFadyean) 11. 02:54 PM - Fuel pump wiring (Simon Smith) 12. 03:11 PM - Re: Propeller discussions (karelvranken) 13. 05:07 PM - Re: Fuel pump wiring (Paul McAllister) 14. 09:06 PM - re MT Propellors (Peter Timm) 15. 11:20 PM - Re: Re: Propeller discussions (lmorgan822@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:30:33 AM PST US From: "William Mills" Subject: Europa-List: Classic Exhaust Downpipes --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills" Dear All, I have just purchased a third set of Classic exhaust downpipes. The original rear port downpipe (mild steel) fractured and blew a hole on the outside of the bend after 485 hours. This affected the engine so badly that I had to limit the power to produce an extended glide to make an emergency down wind landing. I replaced the whole exhaust system (stainless steel). I have just discovered a hairline fracture with grey exhaust deposit on the outside of the bend on the starboard rear downpipe, so I have purchased a set of replacement downpipes at 936 hours. I may decide to replace the lot, or both rear, or one pipe at a time, to see how the others last, but I am not quite sure. It might be useful if others who have had to replace all or part of the exhaust systems, on either Classics or XSs give a short report so that we can see if there is any trend associated with hours and position of any fracture. I thought the first fracture might have been caused by the box having to hang off the down pipes, causing additional stress when operating over rough ground, so I asked Andy to weld some hanger lugs on the replacement box so that I could support it off the crankcase at the front and off the engine bearers at the back, but that did not appear to be any help. In fact the second set only lasted 451 hours! If anyone has any bright ideas, I would be most interested. Still on exhaust matters, has anyone tried to seal the leakage from the spigot and socket joints between the down pipes and the box stubs? I still get some CO in the cockpit when climbing under full power, so I was thinking of sealing them with RTV silicone. Has anyone tried that? Best wishes, William ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:07:30 AM PST US From: "Pete Lawless" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Classic Exhaust Downpipes --> Europa-List message posted by: "Pete Lawless" Morning William G-RMAC is a Classic with 912ul and had the originally supplied mild steel exhaust. The front left down pipe split at 180 hours. The split followed the line of the weld where the pipe had been manufactured and was approximately 2 inches long. Now running with stainless, but only done 40 hours or so on that. Having heard about early problems with downpipes I had supported my silencer box with a strap to the engine mount, obviously this did not help and I have now removed it. Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Mills Sent: 11 February 2006 08:26 Subject: Europa-List: Classic Exhaust Downpipes --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills" Dear All, I have just purchased a third set of Classic exhaust downpipes. The original rear port downpipe (mild steel) fractured and blew a hole on the outside of the bend after 485 hours. This affected the engine so badly that I had to limit the power to produce an extended glide to make an emergency down wind landing. I replaced the whole exhaust system (stainless steel). I have just discovered a hairline fracture with grey exhaust deposit on the outside of the bend on the starboard rear downpipe, so I have purchased a set of replacement downpipes at 936 hours. I may decide to replace the lot, or both rear, or one pipe at a time, to see how the others last, but I am not quite sure. It might be useful if others who have had to replace all or part of the exhaust systems, on either Classics or XSs give a short report so that we can see if there is any trend associated with hours and position of any fracture. I thought the first fracture might have been caused by the box having to hang off the down pipes, causing additional stress when operating over rough ground, so I asked Andy to weld some hanger lugs on the replacement box so that I could support it off the crankcase at the front and off the engine bearers at the back, but that did not appear to be any help. In fact the second set only lasted 451 hours! If anyone has any bright ideas, I would be most interested. Still on exhaust matters, has anyone tried to seal the leakage from the spigot and socket joints between the down pipes and the box stubs? I still get some CO in the cockpit when climbing under full power, so I was thinking of sealing them with RTV silicone. Has anyone tried that? Best wishes, William ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:04:18 AM PST US From: "ivor.phillips" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Propeller discussions --> Europa-List message posted by: "ivor.phillips" Hi Paul Bob Harrison has been using a MT three blade constant speed propeller for the last Five years on his Jabiru 3300, Give him a call if you need more info! ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- Ivor Phillips From: "Paul McAllister" Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 1:49 AM Subject: Europa-List: Propeller discussions > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" > > > Hi all, > > Among all of the CS propeller discussions I never see MT mentioned. They > make 2 two blade propellers, on electric, that the other is hydraulic. > The > electric one is the same weight as an Airmaster and the diameter of the > propeller is 180 cm / 70.8 inches, slightly less than an Airmaster. As > far > as prices goes, I seem to recall the Airmaster was something north of > $6000.00 US which is similar to the MT. I know that the Airplast and > Woodcomp's are a lot less than this. > > So... are there any Europa's out there with MT's, are they any good. Why > am > I asking this ?, well I am now of the opinion that a product that needs to > be serviced in another country is way too much hassle. The MT are > assembled > & serviced in the US. > > Paul ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:25:53 AM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Propeller discussions --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Jeff, I just looked at the manual and under Maximum diameter they have 72" / 183 cm, but then under that they state the weight and in brackets "Data shown for 64" diameter and 10" spinner" So.... I don't really know. You would think that you get a reduction in diameter for increasing the number of blades for a given HP capacity. My interest in this whole topic is two fold. John Hurst once told me that the Whirlwind propeller was good for an additional 20 knots at 17,500' over the Airmaster. At first glance this doesn't make much sense, usually a multi bladed propeller is more efficient at altitude. John agreed but seemed to think that the Warp drive blades were just not very efficient. Given that no A:B comparisons were made as a controlled experiment, then its just an opinion. Most of my flying is long cross country trips, typically in the 500 ~ 800 nm range. A propeller that would give me 20 more knots at altitude is seductive. My other interest in the whole topic is service, 6~8 week cycle times isn't very good. I suspect that from the US the issue same issues would exist for the European sourced products. So, am I about to spend +6k for another propeller that might go faster and can provide local service.... probably not, but I am just curious as to why the MT has never caught on in the Europa community. Cheers, Paul ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:33:40 AM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Propeller discussions --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" < Europa community. > > Cheers, Paul>> Could be something to do with the price! The MT tends to be heavier too. There is a lot of experience with the MT on hte 4-seater BanBi; maybe that is more to do with "certification", alhtough one gets hte impression that the MT prop is custom-matched by the manufacturer to hte particular aircraft. Perhaps Gilles could comment. Duncan Mcf. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:38 AM PST US Cc: Robert Borger From: Robert Borger Subject: Europa-List: RE: Propeller Discussion --> Europa-List message posted by: Robert Borger Fellow Europaphiles: My 2-bits, for what it's worth. I like the WhirlWind propellers. Decent price for the 2-blade version. The 4-blade would look so sexy on the Europa, like a mini- Spitfire. (If you want to put out the extra $5K or so) As you can see below in the signature block, I've bought an Airmaster. Reason: Airmaster is electrically controlled. WhirlWind is hydraulic controlled. The hydraulic controller has to be mounted where my 2nd alternator is mounted. Choice: 2nd alternator or hydraulic controller. With my all-electric panel and IFR setup, I had to go with the 2nd alternator. If I went simple daytime, VFR (which will probably be 95% of my flying anyway) and vacuum gages, I might have been able to get away with the Europa electrical system and could have gone WhirlWind hydraulic C/S prop. Like I said, just my 2-bits for what it's worth. Please don't anyone follow my lead, just because I've tried it. I still don't know how it will work as I'm still months and months and months away from flying. Good building and great flying, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL (85%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in with Singleton Mod, outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in, Mod 70 done, baggage bay in. Completing the firewall-aft fuel system and fitting the instrument panel. Working in - 24 Instrument Panel, 25 Electrical, 28 Flaps, 29 Main Gear, 30 Fuel System, 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35 Doors, 37 Finishing. Airmaster arrived 29 Sep 05. Seat arrived from Oregon Aero. Preparing ROTAX 914 for installation. Singleton firewall mod has arrived. 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:44:57 AM PST US From: "KARL HEINDL" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Propeller discussions --> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" Paul, Are yu sure about the 72"?. I am not near my Europa at the moment, but I could have sworn that that should read 62". I had investigated the Hoffmann (also German) propeller, because it is widey used on certified aircraft with Rotax, i.e. Katana, Dimona and other motorgliders. It is 2-blade, cs, and feathering. It is unlikely to be interesting for the Europa because: it is hydraulic, twice as heavy as the Airmaster setup, and twice as expensive as the Airmaster. As far as I know, Airmaster don't actually make propellers. They make the AC200 control box and electronics etc. and fit it with the Warp Drive. I am also planning to upgrade this year and my present choice is the new Woodcomp SR3000 with twin-blade of 170cm (67"). Anything longer would not be wise on the Europa, and definately not on the mono. Reason for the 2-blade version is reduced drag whenever I am in glider mode (one of these days). Karl >From: "Paul McAllister" >To: >Subject: RE: Europa-List: Propeller discussions >Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 07:21:03 -0600 > >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" > > >Jeff, > >I just looked at the manual and under Maximum diameter they have 72" / 183 >cm, but then under that they state the weight and in brackets "Data shown >for 64" diameter and 10" spinner" > >So.... I don't really know. You would think that you get a reduction in >diameter for increasing the number of blades for a given HP capacity. > >My interest in this whole topic is two fold. John Hurst once told me that >the Whirlwind propeller was good for an additional 20 knots at 17,500' over >the Airmaster. At first glance this doesn't make much sense, usually a >multi bladed propeller is more efficient at altitude. John agreed but >seemed to think that the Warp drive blades were just not very efficient. >Given that no A:B comparisons were made as a controlled experiment, then >its >just an opinion. > >Most of my flying is long cross country trips, typically in the 500 ~ 800 >nm >range. A propeller that would give me 20 more knots at altitude is >seductive. > >My other interest in the whole topic is service, 6~8 week cycle times isn't >very good. I suspect that from the US the issue same issues would exist >for >the European sourced products. So, am I about to spend +6k for another >propeller that might go faster and can provide local service.... probably >not, but I am just curious as to why the MT has never caught on in the >Europa community. > >Cheers, Paul > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:23:10 AM PST US From: lmorgan822@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Propeller discussions --> Europa-List message posted by: lmorgan822@aol.com Look for Vari-Prop at Sun'n'fun. Bolt on hydraulic system with blades custom fitted to your application. Lighter weight than Airmaster. -----Original Message----- From: KARL HEINDL Sent: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 17:39:45 +0000 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Propeller discussions --> Europa-List message posted by: "KARL HEINDL" Paul, Are yu sure about the 72"?. I am not near my Europa at the moment, but I could have sworn that that should read 62". I had investigated the Hoffmann (also German) propeller, because it is widey used on certified aircraft with Rotax, i.e. Katana, Dimona and other motorgliders. It is 2-blade, cs, and feathering. It is unlikely to be interesting for the Europa because: it is hydraulic, twice as heavy as the Airmaster setup, and twice as expensive as the Airmaster. As far as I know, Airmaster don't actually make propellers. They make the AC200 control box and electronics etc. and fit it with the Warp Drive. I am also planning to upgrade this year and my present choice is the new Woodcomp SR3000 with twin-blade of 170cm (67"). Anything longer would not be wise on the Europa, and definately not on the mono. Reason for the 2-blade version is reduced drag whenever I am in glider mode (one of these days). Karl >From: "Paul McAllister" >To: >Subject: RE: Europa-List: Propeller discussions >Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 07:21:03 -0600 > >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" > > >Jeff, > >I just looked at the manual and under Maximum diameter they have 72" / 183 >cm, but then under that they state the weight and in brackets "Data shown >for 64" diameter and 10" spinner" > >So.... I don't really know. You would think that you get a reduction in >diameter for increasing the number of blades for a given HP capacity. > >My interest in this whole topic is two fold. John Hurst once told me that >the Whirlwind propeller was good for an additional 20 knots at 17,500' over >the Airmaster. At first glance this doesn't make much sense, usually a >multi bladed propeller is more efficient at altitude. John agreed but >seemed to think that the Warp drive blades were just not very efficient. >Given that no A:B comparisons were made as a controlled experiment, then >its >just an opinion. > >Most of my flying is long cross country trips, typically in the 500 ~ 800 >nm >range. A propeller that would give me 20 more knots at altitude is >seductive. > >My other interest in the whole topic is service, 6~8 week cycle times isn't >very good. I suspect that from the US the issue same issues would exist >for >the European sourced products. So, am I about to spend +6k for another >propeller that might go faster and can provide local service.... probably >not, but I am just curious as to why the MT has never caught on in the >Europa community. > >Cheers, Paul > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:29:15 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: RE: Propeller discussions From: "josok" --> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" Hi Imorgan, This list has seen your advertising for Vari-prop before. Since i will be missing Sun 'n Fun this year, and maybe one or two other Europhiles also, could you elaborate a bit? Are you connected to that company or just enthusiastic about it? Google finds variprop, excellent propellers for boats! Regards, Jos Okhuijsen ---------------- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:31:34 PM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: Propeller discussions --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" There is a vague reference to it (including photo) at: http://www.beltedair.com/ But I couldn't find anything else either. Duncan Mcf. ----- Original Message ----- From: "josok" Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 7:26 PM Subject: Europa-List: RE: Propeller discussions > --> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" > > Hi Imorgan, > > This list has seen your advertising for Vari-prop before. Since i will be > missing Sun 'n Fun this year, and maybe one or two other Europhiles also, > could you elaborate a bit? Are you connected to that company or just > enthusiastic about it? Google finds variprop, excellent propellers for > boats! > > Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > ---------------- > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:54:00 PM PST US From: "Simon Smith" Subject: Europa-List: Fuel pump wiring --> Europa-List message posted by: "Simon Smith" Hi all, I was just looking at the wiring for the Fuel pumps on the 914 and I came up with a question. FP1 is wired off the alternator. Would it make more sense to earth it direct to the engine (no battery etc in the equation) or would you just go to the normal -ve bus bar (or even the battery)? cheers Simon G-BZTN kit 504 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:11:00 PM PST US From: "karelvranken" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Propeller discussions --> Europa-List message posted by: "karelvranken" Paul, You never heard of Rutan (Voyager) about MT? Karel Vranken. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul McAllister" Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 2:49 AM Subject: Europa-List: Propeller discussions > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" > > > Hi all, > > Among all of the CS propeller discussions I never see MT mentioned. They > make 2 two blade propellers, on electric, that the other is hydraulic. > The > electric one is the same weight as an Airmaster and the diameter of the > propeller is 180 cm / 70.8 inches, slightly less than an Airmaster. As > far > as prices goes, I seem to recall the Airmaster was something north of > $6000.00 US which is similar to the MT. I know that the Airplast and > Woodcomp's are a lot less than this. > > So... are there any Europa's out there with MT's, are they any good. Why > am > I asking this ?, well I am now of the opinion that a product that needs to > be serviced in another country is way too much hassle. The MT are > assembled > & serviced in the US. > > Paul > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:07:20 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Fuel pump wiring --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Simon, I would encourage you to take a look at the Ground blocks offered by B&C. Take a look at http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?26X358218 and scroll down the page. I used a 48 tab block on the inside of the firewall and a 24 pin on the engine side. The ground blocks were bolted together with a brass through bolt. Using this type of approach gives you a single point ground for everything, and its the first step to keeping ground loops out of your system. This is where I grounded my fuel pumps to. Regards, Paul ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:52 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: re MT Propellors From: Peter Timm --> Europa-List message posted by: Peter Timm On my recent trip to Australia I had the opportunity to fly the French MCR Sportster, a further development of the original Banby. My friend's aircraft was a bit lighter than my Europa, due to a carbon fibre fuselage with metal wings and T tail and less luggage capacity( 20 lb total). However, its climb performance with a three-bladed MT propeller and two aboard was a solid 1500 ft/min. up to the 4000 ft ceiling. My friend claims a 150 knt cruise as well, which I can not verify. The propeller is considerably heavier and much more expensive than the Airmaster. The kit is also more expensive than the latest Europa kit price and the wings have to be built in factory jigs; they offer a builder assist program at the factory in France. The engine is a Rotax 912 S, same as mine and John mentioned 22 kg as the weight of the propeller assembly. I also met with a couple of Europa owners in the Perth area. More about this in a future Europa Flyer. Peter Timm # 110, C-GIET Pemberton, B.C. Canada ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:16 PM PST US From: lmorgan822@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: Propeller discussions --> Europa-List message posted by: lmorgan822@aol.com Hi Jos, We have both a marine and aircraft prop. We have not built our web site for the A/C prop yet. This weekend I am testing a 4 bladed variant on a T-51 with a Rotax 914. We have 2, 3, and 4 bladed props, and two hub sizes. The larger hubs are designed for the direct drive engines in the 180 to 350 HP, the smaller hubs are designed for the Rotax, Jabiru, etc, although currently running on a 200 HP Chevy V6 in an RV6 with a reduction drive. I am the owner of the company. We are an Oregon LLC. If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact me at lmorgan822@hotmail.com. 503-804-5508. Thank you for your inquiry. Larry Morgan -----Original Message----- From: josok Subject: Europa-List: RE: Propeller discussions --> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" Hi Imorgan, This list has seen your advertising for Vari-prop before. Since i will be missing Sun 'n Fun this year, and maybe one or two other Europhiles also, could you elaborate a bit? Are you connected to that company or just enthusiastic about it? Google finds variprop, excellent propellers for boats! Regards, Jos Okhuijsen ----------------