Europa-List Digest Archive

Mon 02/13/06


Total Messages Posted: 26



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 12:19 AM - Re: Propellers (Tony Krzyzewski)
     2. 05:52 AM - Re: Re: RF Problem (Chris Beck)
     3. 06:18 AM - Re: Re: Propellers (Tim & Eileen Robertson)
     4. 07:01 AM - Mono Wheel Enclosed Trailer  (Brian Davies)
     5. 08:26 AM - Salvage (J. Gunn)
     6. 10:26 AM - Re: RF Problem (Jeff B)
     7. 10:42 AM - Europa - how much does it really cost? (TERRY SMITH)
     8. 10:50 AM - Re: Rotax 912UL Deals (Dan Bish)
     9. 11:33 AM - Re: Europa - how much does it really cost? (Carl Pattinson)
    10. 11:56 AM - Re: Classic Exhaust Downpipes (William Mills)
    11. 12:13 PM - Re: Mono Wheel Enclosed Trailer  (Roger Sheridan)
    12. 01:38 PM - Re: RF Problem (JEFF ROBERTS)
    13. 01:42 PM - Re: Europa - how much does it really cost? (JEFF ROBERTS)
    14. 02:11 PM - Re: Europa - how much does it really cost? (Tony Krzyzewski)
    15. 02:19 PM - Re: Mono Wheel Enclosed Trailer  (Pete Lawless)
    16. 02:26 PM - Re: Europa - how much does it really cost? (Paul Boulet)
    17. 02:31 PM - Re: Europa - how much does it really cost? (Pete Lawless)
    18. 02:58 PM - Re: RF Problem (Fred Fillinger)
    19. 03:27 PM - Re: Europa - how much does it really cost? (sqwk7000@cotswoldwireless.co.uk)
    20. 05:32 PM - Re: Europa - how much does it really cost? (Michael Grass)
    21. 05:33 PM - Re: Europa - how much does it really cost? (gdhetrick)
    22. 07:03 PM - Re: Europa - how much does it really cost? (europa flugzeug fabrik)
    23. 08:52 PM - Mounting the 914 (Fergus Kyle)
    24. 09:19 PM - Re: Re: Europa - how much does it really cost? (Cliff Shaw)
    25. 10:25 PM - Re: Mounting the 914 (Tony Krzyzewski)
    26. 11:13 PM - Monowheel spring for downlatch ()
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 12:19:51 AM PST US
    Subject: RE: Propellers
    From: "Tony Krzyzewski" <tonyk@kaon.co.nz>
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony Krzyzewski" <tonyk@kaon.co.nz> There is something that has been puzling me for a while. Many people on this group suggest one CS propeller system vs the other based on weight, cost and increased performance yet not once have I seen anyone ask about what testing programme has been run with that particular prop on the Europa. A few years ago I was priveleged enough to be the (unpaid) test pilot for Airmaster. Airmaster, when they were ready to go into production, went out and bought a Europa with a fixed pitch prop, fitted a US$5000 in flight data recorder and I then spent 30 hours flying the plane in just about every flight configuration you could imagine. While this was going on Airmaster were having their hub tested at Auckland University to determine the blade pull out forces (I believe they gave up at 28,000lbs) and analysing the hamonics of the system. They then fitted the Airmaster CS prop to the aircraft and I repeated the flight test process... right up to doing rapid throttle backoffs while flying the aircraft at 185 knots with a harmonic analyser strapped to the engine at the insistance of the PFA and thoroughly exploring the climb rate under all fail conditions so that a go around is actually possible in all conditions. While flying at that speed is something that I am unlikely to repeat and wouldn't recommend except under strictly controlled test flight conditions, flying the Europa at 185 knots in a steady dive from 10000 feet is the closest I can imagine to flying a jet fighter. Doing this test flying gave me a real respect of how good a job Europa did with the design of this aircraft and how much work goes into the design, implementation and testing of a propeller system that I'd be happy to fly behind in all situations. When you are considering a propeller system that is an alternative to the one that Europa recommend can I suggest that you ask for their test data and ask them what flight test programme they have flown on the Europa. If that can't be provided then you need to assume that you are going to be the test pilot. As to performance of a Europa fitted with a CS prop... in 2002 I made a flight with the data recorder running and peaked at 149KIAS/ 151KTAS at 1500 feet straight and level... this with a 912 powered Europa and Airmaster propeller fitted. After this flight I came to the conclusion that the aircraft flies far batter with the CofG as far aft as practical and now, when I am doing high speed run testing always shift the CofG aft. Regards Tony


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:52:08 AM PST US
    From: Chris Beck <n9zes@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: RF Problem
    --> Europa-List message posted by: Chris Beck <n9zes@verizon.net> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net> Jeff, I have a Bob Archer antenna in the tail of my Europa. My trim control & Navaids go nuts when I transmit and I haven't ever solved the problem. My SWR is spot on, and the I never have a problem being heard, so the transmitter is working well. I am about to go down the ferrite bead route as well, I would be interested to know how you get on. Paul ---> I've had a bit of experience with RF problems, being a ham operator for the past decade or so, both with a 5 watt 144MHz handheld and also a 150 watt SSB HF radio. The wierd part is the 5 watt radio caused more issues than the big rig. I could wipe out every TV in our house with it. The problem is not with the transmitter, or the SWR of the antenna. The problem is with other wiring, like the trim servo leads, picking up the radiated power and bringing it back to whatever is there. The solid state components in the 'box' act like a diode rectifier (a.k.a. crystal radio) and that power just overloads the circuitry. Most solid state electronics today is pretty well wide open to RF interferrence. Telephones are usually really bad, TV's, alarm systems, touch lamps, etc. are great at getting RF into them. Part of the problem is the Europa itself. Since it's glass, the fuselage offers no internal shielding of other equipment from the radio transmissions like a Spam Can would. The other problem is that any leads to servos, lighting, etc. will pick up the transmitted power, and be especially bad if the lead lengths are a multiple of the frequency (in 1/4 wavelengths). A few solutions to try: 1) Make sure the radio chassis is grounded well to the airframe ground bus. 2) Make sure you are using good coax for the antenna lead (double shielded if necessary - foil and braid) 3) Get a ferrite bead assortment (Amidon is one brand). The ferrites do NOT go on the radio, but on everything else that is affected. This would mean that signal and power leads to trim systems, engine monitors, etc. all need to have beads or torroids applied. 4) In worst case situations, you need to actually shield the affected equipment itself, which means building a grounded box around the device from copper sheet, etc. Chris


    Message 3


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    Time: 06:18:55 AM PST US
    From: "Tim & Eileen Robertson" <terobo@tiscali.co.uk>
    Subject: RE: Propellers
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tim & Eileen Robertson" <terobo@tiscali.co.uk> >From Tim Robertson The Wilcksh Diesel company Europa has an MT three bladed prop and has been through it's approval testing by the MT company. I do not know any other details. Hope my first posting works.... -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tony Krzyzewski Sent: 13 February 2006 08:15 Subject: Europa-List: RE: Propellers --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony Krzyzewski" <tonyk@kaon.co.nz> There is something that has been puzling me for a while. Many people on this group suggest one CS propeller system vs the other based on weight, cost and increased performance yet not once have I seen anyone ask about what testing programme has been run with that particular prop on the Europa. A few years ago I was priveleged enough to be the (unpaid) test pilot for Airmaster. Airmaster, when they were ready to go into production, went out and bought a Europa with a fixed pitch prop, fitted a US$5000 in flight data recorder and I then spent 30 hours flying the plane in just about every flight configuration you could imagine. While this was going on Airmaster were having their hub tested at Auckland University to determine the blade pull out forces (I believe they gave up at 28,000lbs) and analysing the hamonics of the system. They then fitted the Airmaster CS prop to the aircraft and I repeated the flight test process... right up to doing rapid throttle backoffs while flying the aircraft at 185 knots with a harmonic analyser strapped to the engine at the insistance of the PFA and thoroughly exploring the climb rate under all fail conditions so that a go around is actually possible in all conditions. While flying at that speed is something that I am unlikely to repeat and wouldn't recommend except under strictly controlled test flight conditions, flying the Europa at 185 knots in a steady dive from 10000 feet is the closest I can imagine to flying a jet fighter. Doing this test flying gave me a real respect of how good a job Europa did with the design of this aircraft and how much work goes into the design, implementation and testing of a propeller system that I'd be happy to fly behind in all situations. When you are considering a propeller system that is an alternative to the one that Europa recommend can I suggest that you ask for their test data and ask them what flight test programme they have flown on the Europa. If that can't be provided then you need to assume that you are going to be the test pilot. As to performance of a Europa fitted with a CS prop... in 2002 I made a flight with the data recorder running and peaked at 149KIAS/ 151KTAS at 1500 feet straight and level... this with a 912 powered Europa and Airmaster propeller fitted. After this flight I came to the conclusion that the aircraft flies far batter with the CofG as far aft as practical and now, when I am doing high speed run testing always shift the CofG aft. Regards Tony


    Message 4


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    Time: 07:01:52 AM PST US
    From: "Brian Davies" <bdavies@dircon.co.uk>
    Subject: Mono Wheel Enclosed Trailer
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Brian Davies" <bdavies@dircon.co.uk> Having finally finished the construction (but not the paperwork!) of my Mono XS 912S I am preparing my trailer for holding my pride and joy. I bought the very last Mono enclosed four wheel trailer made by David Schofield which had no fittings on the inside. I don't really want to reinvent the wheel regarding fuselage and wing fittings so I would be grateful if there is someone who has one of these trailers fitted out who I could talk to. I am particularly nervous about holding the fuselage, having already had one accident with the thing ending up on its side! Fortunately, not too much damage done to the aircraft but I still have the mental scars! I understand I need to keep enough weight on the tow hitch to give good towing, which indicates putting the fuselage in nose first, but most of the pictures I have seen show a tail first configuration. Help! Brian Davies Kit 454


    Message 5


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    Time: 08:26:29 AM PST US
    From: "J. Gunn" <jim@gunn.org.uk>
    Subject: Salvage
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "J. Gunn" <jim@gunn.org.uk> Hi Phil, Send me your list of what's left? Regards Jim -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phil Tait Sent: 08 February 2006 15:39 Subject: Europa-List: Europa Fast Build cocpit module for sale. Save yourself 300 hours of work --> Europa-List message posted by: "Phil Tait" <phil@archwise.co.uk> I have the last few bits of G-JAPS Left and now have the Cockpit module available For Sale if anyone is interested? Send me an email with 'Salvage' in the title for more information. UK builders only please. Phil Tait * phil@archwise.co.uk


    Message 6


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    Time: 10:26:28 AM PST US
    From: Jeff B <topglock@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: RF Problem
    --> Europa-List message posted by: Jeff B <topglock@cox.net> Jeff, I'm using the same setup Icom/Archer. My coax runs through a 1" x 2" channel in the left of the fuse, along with the transponder coax, left wing wiring and a couple of other power wires. You've ridden in the bird and, as you probably know, there is no interference, at all. The only time I had a probelm, was with the mic going to open and affecting the trim, tripping the breaker. That turned out to be a short in intercom wiring. Once it was fixed, the problem went away. I'd check all other connections, including grounds, just to be sure they are all good. Other than that, I'm stumpped, but that's not hard to do... :) I know you're close to first flight. Keep us apprised. Hope to see you at Sun-N-Fun... Jeff - N55XS 141 hours JEFF ROBERTS wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff@rmmm.net> > > HI All, > I remember this was discussed before, but to know resolution as I > recall. I Have been fighting an RF problem with my I-Com radio. The RF > is obviously getting into the ground as even the trim LED's are > effected. I have a Stratomaster engine monitor from MGL that seams to > work great until I hit the push to talk button. It then goes black and > the trim and Navaid LED's go crazy as well. I have a Bob Archer antenna > in the tail and the radio sounds clear and transmits well. When tested > with any other antenna the same thing occurs. The power to the antenna > is about 7 watts and there was only about a half a watt or less coming > back on the shield when tested. I made sure some time ago that the com > RG cable to the antenna was isolated from any other cables. We have > checked, and all grounds are good on the radio. I have been told to > install some ferrite RF suppressors on the ground and output of the > transmitter and to place them on the ground and power going into the > engine monitor. Before I order these have others run into this and have > you determined the cause and solution? Any Ideas are very welcome as I > have been scratching my head for a week! > > Thanks in advance, > Jeff Roberts > A258 - N128LJ > Waiting inspection 1st week in March. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --


    Message 7


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    Time: 10:42:19 AM PST US
    From: "TERRY SMITH" <skyguard33-register@yahoo.co.uk>
    Subject: Europa - how much does it really cost?
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "TERRY SMITH" <skyguard33-register@yahoo.co.uk> Hi, In looking at the possibility of purchasing a (secondhand) Europa I wondered if anyone would be prepared to comment on the two 'imponderable questions' relating to aircraft ownership: 1. How much are you spending on maintenance per year (say 100 hours use)??? 2. What is the collective wisdom on the depreciation I should budget for? I appreciate that the desire to own and fly a Europa should easily outweigh these very mundane matters but any sensible comments would be welcomed!!!! Thanks, Terry.


    Message 8


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    Time: 10:50:19 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Rotax 912UL Deals
    From: "Dan Bish" <n914rb@earthlink.net>
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Dan Bish" <n914rb@earthlink.net> Bruce, Good to hear from you. I just wanted to say thanks again for putting that original post up about Dave. I was in the deep, dark well of stress over which engine to go with and got a lot of really good from the community about Jabiru's, Subaru's, and others when that deal came up. I went into this project orginally not wanting to compromise but the Rotax prices were about to scare me off. Getting the deal on a brand new 914 really took that stress away. I seem to remember that Dave's asking in the 16k range for the 912ul's; not a bad deal at all. Paul, Glad to see you were able to get with Dave too. Good luck with your fuel injection mod. Anyway, thanks again. Happy building, safe flying, Dan -------- Kit A144 - N914RB Mono, 914F About 40% done, CM finished, most controls, tower, tailplanes, etc. Working on wing incidence and landing gear. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=11876#11876


    Message 9


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    Time: 11:33:56 AM PST US
    From: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Europa - how much does it really cost?
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> Maintenance itself is negligible. Apart from the occasional mod, tyre or brake lining there is little else to replace. 100 hrs engine servive 25 for oil and 10 for oil filter, possibly 20 for a set of plugs. PFA Permit renewal 160 Insurance 1500 average per year. Average cost of a second hand Europa about 30,000 (or less). I wouldnt say they depreciate, but the resale values of Europas have dropped steadily in the last ten years. A good quality aircraft could fetch in excess of 35,000 then but you would be lucky to achieve 30,000 for a similar aircraft now and I suspect for a quick sale, 25,000 would be nearer the mark. Just one thing though. If you purchase a mono wheel version, expect to break a propeller in the first 12 months of ownership (unless you are extremely lucky). Cost 500 approx or more if it is a VP prop. ----- Original Message ----- From: "TERRY SMITH" <skyguard33-register@yahoo.co.uk> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 6:44 PM Subject: Europa-List: Europa - how much does it really cost? > --> Europa-List message posted by: "TERRY SMITH" > <skyguard33-register@yahoo.co.uk> > > Hi, > > In looking at the possibility of purchasing a (secondhand) Europa I > wondered if anyone would be prepared to comment on the two 'imponderable > questions' relating to aircraft ownership: > > 1. How much are you spending on maintenance per year (say 100 hours > use)??? > > 2. What is the collective wisdom on the depreciation I should budget for? > > I appreciate that the desire to own and fly a Europa should easily > outweigh these very mundane matters but any sensible comments would be > welcomed!!!! > > Thanks, > > Terry. > > >


    Message 10


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    Time: 11:56:42 AM PST US
    From: "William Mills" <william@wrmills.plus.com>
    Subject: Re: Classic Exhaust Downpipes
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills" <william@wrmills.plus.com> Thanks for the reply, Peter. I was hoping the response from the forum would have been better, so that we could see the range of hours before replacement and if others have taken any measurers to extend the life. I thought mild steel would have been more durable than stainless from the point of view of stress fractures, but perhaps not. If anyone else has any contributions on this subject, please let us know. Best wishes, William Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Lawless" <pete@lawless.info> Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 9:02 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Classic Exhaust Downpipes > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Pete Lawless" <pete@lawless.info> > > Morning William > > G-RMAC is a Classic with 912ul and had the originally supplied mild > steel exhaust. The front left down pipe split at 180 hours. The split > followed the line of the weld where the pipe had been manufactured and > was approximately 2 inches long. Now running with stainless, but only > done 40 hours or so on that. Having heard about early problems with > downpipes I had supported my silencer box with a strap to the engine > mount, obviously this did not help and I have now removed it. > > Regards > > Pete > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William > Mills > Sent: 11 February 2006 08:26 > To: Europa Forum > Subject: Europa-List: Classic Exhaust Downpipes > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills" > <william@wrmills.plus.com> > > Dear All, > I have just purchased a third set of Classic exhaust downpipes. The > original rear port downpipe (mild steel) fractured and blew a hole on > the outside of the bend after 485 hours. This affected the engine so > badly that I had to limit the power to produce an extended glide to make > an emergency down wind landing. I replaced the whole exhaust system > (stainless steel). > I have just discovered a hairline fracture with grey exhaust deposit on > the outside of the bend on the starboard rear downpipe, so I have > purchased a set of replacement downpipes at 936 hours. I may decide to > replace the lot, or both rear, or one pipe at a time, to see how the > others last, but I am not quite sure. > It might be useful if others who have had to replace all or part of the > exhaust systems, on either Classics or XSs give a short report so that > we can see if there is any trend associated with hours and position of > any fracture. > I thought the first fracture might have been caused by the box having to > hang off the down pipes, causing additional stress when operating over > rough ground, so I asked Andy to weld some hanger lugs on the > replacement box so that I could support it off the crankcase at the > front and off the engine bearers at the back, but that did not appear to > be any help. In fact the second set only lasted 451 hours! > If anyone has any bright ideas, I would be most interested. > Still on exhaust matters, has anyone tried to seal the leakage from the > spigot and socket joints between the down pipes and the box stubs? I > still get some CO in the cockpit when climbing under full power, so I > was thinking of sealing them with RTV silicone. Has anyone tried that? > Best wishes, > William > > > -- > >


    Message 11


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    Time: 12:13:51 PM PST US
    From: Roger Sheridan <rogerjohnsheridan@yahoo.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Mono Wheel Enclosed Trailer
    --> Europa-List message posted by: Roger Sheridan <rogerjohnsheridan@yahoo.co.uk> Hi Brian, I sorted out my Schofield stowage before commencing painting last year. I am using wing & fus dollies made by Roger Huttlestone (rhuttlestone@freenetname.co.uk) and am very pleased with them. You are welcome to come & inspect (West Sussex), or give me a ring to discus. (01444882062) Brgds, Roger


    Message 12


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    Time: 01:38:59 PM PST US
    From: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff@rmmm.net>
    Subject: Re: RF Problem
    --> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff@rmmm.net> Hi Jeff, hows it going? Yes I agree the ground is the most likely place it's getting in but I'v run a second ground to the radio rack the engine monitor the trim and still can't get rid of it. I'll try the ferrite beads next. I too ran all my coax down the opposite side keeping them away from the others wires. I'll be taking the panel to Ron Dupler at the local avionics shop and letting him have a stab at it as myself and two other local plastic plane builders are all stumped. Looks like Paul McCallister is having the same problem. I probably wont have the hours flown off by Sun & Fun but I still may be there. I have a friend that lives not far from Lakeland thats expecting me. I'll let you know or call your cell then. Thanks, and we'll let you know of the first flight. Jeff A258 On Feb 13, 2006, at 12:06 PM, Jeff B wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: Jeff B <topglock@cox.net> > > Jeff, > > I'm using the same setup Icom/Archer. My coax runs through a 1" x 2" > channel in the left of the fuse, along with the transponder coax, left > wing wiring and a couple of other power wires. You've ridden in the > bird and, as you probably know, there is no interference, at all. The > only time I had a probelm, was with the mic going to open and affecting > the trim, tripping the breaker. That turned out to be a short in > intercom wiring. Once it was fixed, the problem went away. I'd check > all other connections, including grounds, just to be sure they are all > good. Other than that, I'm stumpped, but that's not hard to do... :) > > I know you're close to first flight. Keep us apprised. Hope to see > you > at Sun-N-Fun... > > Jeff - N55XS > 141 hours > > JEFF ROBERTS wrote: > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff@rmmm.net> >> >> HI All, >> I remember this was discussed before, but to know resolution as I >> recall. I Have been fighting an RF problem with my I-Com radio. The RF >> is obviously getting into the ground as even the trim LED's are >> effected. I have a Stratomaster engine monitor from MGL that seams to >> work great until I hit the push to talk button. It then goes black and >> the trim and Navaid LED's go crazy as well. I have a Bob Archer >> antenna >> in the tail and the radio sounds clear and transmits well. When tested >> with any other antenna the same thing occurs. The power to the antenna >> is about 7 watts and there was only about a half a watt or less coming >> back on the shield when tested. I made sure some time ago that the >> com >> RG cable to the antenna was isolated from any other cables. We have >> checked, and all grounds are good on the radio. I have been told to >> install some ferrite RF suppressors on the ground and output of the >> transmitter and to place them on the ground and power going into the >> engine monitor. Before I order these have others run into this and >> have >> you determined the cause and solution? Any Ideas are very welcome as I >> have been scratching my head for a week! >> >> Thanks in advance, >> Jeff Roberts >> A258 - N128LJ >> Waiting inspection 1st week in March. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > >


    Message 13


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    Time: 01:42:52 PM PST US
    From: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff@rmmm.net>
    Subject: Re: Europa - how much does it really cost?
    --> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff@rmmm.net> > > A good quality aircraft could fetch in excess of 35,000 then but you > would > be lucky to achieve 30,000 for a similar aircraft now and I suspect > for a > quick sale, 25,000 would be nearer the mark. Wow Carl, If I can buy built Europa's across the pond for 25 to 35K I'm coming across soon. To buy a new kit here is alone $36K! Of course I don't think they'll sell many at that price. Jeff A258 > > Just one thing though. If you purchase a mono wheel version, expect to > break > a propeller in the first 12 months of ownership (unless you are > extremely > lucky). Cost 500 approx or more if it is a VP prop. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "TERRY SMITH" <skyguard33-register@yahoo.co.uk> > To: <europa-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 6:44 PM > Subject: Europa-List: Europa - how much does it really cost? > > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: "TERRY SMITH" >> <skyguard33-register@yahoo.co.uk> >> >> Hi, >> >> In looking at the possibility of purchasing a (secondhand) Europa I >> wondered if anyone would be prepared to comment on the two >> 'imponderable >> questions' relating to aircraft ownership: >> >> 1. How much are you spending on maintenance per year (say 100 hours >> use)??? >> >> 2. What is the collective wisdom on the depreciation I should budget >> for? >> >> I appreciate that the desire to own and fly a Europa should easily >> outweigh these very mundane matters but any sensible comments would be >> welcomed!!!! >> >> Thanks, >> >> Terry. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >


    Message 14


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    Time: 02:11:51 PM PST US
    Subject: Europa - how much does it really cost?
    From: "Tony Krzyzewski" <tonyk@kaon.co.nz>
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony Krzyzewski" <tonyk@kaon.co.nz> > A good quality aircraft could fetch in excess of 35,000 then but you > would be lucky to achieve 30,000 for a similar aircraft now and I > suspect for a quick sale, 25,000 would be nearer the mark. To buy a new kit here is alone $36K! Of course I don't think they'll sell many at that price. Methinks that Terry was talking pounds sterling rather that US dollars! Both equally likeable currencies but with a 'slight' variance in purchasing power. Tony


    Message 15


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    Time: 02:19:26 PM PST US
    From: "Pete Lawless" <pete@lawless.info>
    Subject: Mono Wheel Enclosed Trailer
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Pete Lawless" <pete@lawless.info> I also have a Schofield trailer with an early rigging kit from Roger Huttlestone. I can recommend both and the latest rigging kit from Roger is really good, I borrowed one last year, greatly improved over my early example. Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Sheridan Sent: 13 February 2006 19:54 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mono Wheel Enclosed Trailer --> Europa-List message posted by: Roger Sheridan <rogerjohnsheridan@yahoo.co.uk> Hi Brian, I sorted out my Schofield stowage before commencing painting last year. I am using wing & fus dollies made by Roger Huttlestone (rhuttlestone@freenetname.co.uk) and am very pleased with them. You are welcome to come & inspect (West Sussex), or give me a ring to discus. (01444882062) Brgds, Roger


    Message 16


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    Time: 02:26:47 PM PST US
    From: Paul Boulet <possibletodo@YAHOO.COM>
    Subject: Re: Europa - how much does it really cost?
    --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Boulet <possibletodo@yahoo.com> I believe he meant pounds.....not dollars Paul Boulet, N914PB Malibu, CA Tri gear conversion complete ----- Original Message ---- From: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff@rmmm.net> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 1:42:29 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa - how much does it really cost? --> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff@rmmm.net> > > A good quality aircraft could fetch in excess of 35,000 then but you > would > be lucky to achieve 30,000 for a similar aircraft now and I suspect > for a > quick sale, 25,000 would be nearer the mark. Wow Carl, If I can buy built Europa's across the pond for 25 to 35K I'm coming across soon. To buy a new kit here is alone $36K! Of course I don't think they'll sell many at that price. Jeff A258 > > Just one thing though. If you purchase a mono wheel version, expect to > break > a propeller in the first 12 months of ownership (unless you are > extremely > lucky). Cost 500 approx or more if it is a VP prop. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "TERRY SMITH" <skyguard33-register@yahoo.co.uk> > To: <europa-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 6:44 PM > Subject: Europa-List: Europa - how much does it really cost? > > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: "TERRY SMITH" >> <skyguard33-register@yahoo.co.uk> >> >> Hi, >> >> In looking at the possibility of purchasing a (secondhand) Europa I >> wondered if anyone would be prepared to comment on the two >> 'imponderable >> questions' relating to aircraft ownership: >> >> 1. How much are you spending on maintenance per year (say 100 hours >> use)??? >> >> 2. What is the collective wisdom on the depreciation I should budget >> for? >> >> I appreciate that the desire to own and fly a Europa should easily >> outweigh these very mundane matters but any sensible comments would be >> welcomed!!!! >> >> Thanks, >> >> Terry. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >


    Message 17


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    Time: 02:31:19 PM PST US
    From: "Pete Lawless" <pete@lawless.info>
    Subject: Europa - how much does it really cost?
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Pete Lawless" <pete@lawless.info> Terry if you are looking for a good Classic G-SHSH is for sale at Kemble. Nice light aeroplane with only 30 hours ish on from new. Its parked just behind mine. Regards Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Pattinson Sent: 13 February 2006 19:31 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa - how much does it really cost? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk> Maintenance itself is negligible. Apart from the occasional mod, tyre or brake lining there is little else to replace. 100 hrs engine servive 25 for oil and 10 for oil filter, possibly 20 for a set of plugs. PFA Permit renewal 160 Insurance 1500 average per year. Average cost of a second hand Europa about 30,000 (or less). I wouldnt say they depreciate, but the resale values of Europas have dropped steadily in the last ten years. A good quality aircraft could fetch in excess of 35,000 then but you would be lucky to achieve 30,000 for a similar aircraft now and I suspect for a quick sale, 25,000 would be nearer the mark. Just one thing though. If you purchase a mono wheel version, expect to break a propeller in the first 12 months of ownership (unless you are extremely lucky). Cost 500 approx or more if it is a VP prop. ----- Original Message ----- From: "TERRY SMITH" <skyguard33-register@yahoo.co.uk> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 6:44 PM Subject: Europa-List: Europa - how much does it really cost? > --> Europa-List message posted by: "TERRY SMITH" > <skyguard33-register@yahoo.co.uk> > > Hi, > > In looking at the possibility of purchasing a (secondhand) Europa I > wondered if anyone would be prepared to comment on the two 'imponderable > questions' relating to aircraft ownership: > > 1. How much are you spending on maintenance per year (say 100 hours > use)??? > > 2. What is the collective wisdom on the depreciation I should budget for? > > I appreciate that the desire to own and fly a Europa should easily > outweigh these very mundane matters but any sensible comments would be > welcomed!!!! > > Thanks, > > Terry. > > >


    Message 18


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    Time: 02:58:56 PM PST US
    From: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: RF Problem
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fred Fillinger" <n3eu@comcast.net> Chris Beck wrote: > The weird part is the 5 watt radio caused more issues than > the big rig. I could wipe out every TV in our house with it. > Chris, ain't that fun. My 2.3W-carrier VHF handheld, at 20 feet from small (cheap) TVs, will briefly make the screen black and kill audio. But just inches anywhere from a new, big Sony flat-screen digital -- absolutely nothing. It may be as much circuit design as shielding of the "victim" device, as interference I guess is intolerable for the big bucks you have to pay! > 2) Make sure you are using good coax for the antenna > lead (double shielded if necessary - foil and braid) I would consider "bettering" the coax a last resort. If I take said handheld and xmit in the vicinity of a RG-58 patch cable (unterminated) at the input of my 200mHz oscilloscope, coax about antenna length, I might see like only 10mV a few feet from this cable. Since receive is the reciprocal of xmit in these matters, the corollary is shielding the input wires to the victim device, single or multi-conductor as convenient. The shield would not be a ground path, just grounded at the instrument end, I would say. > 3) Get a ferrite bead assortment (Amidon is one brand). Ferrite beads or small toriod donuts have a frequency spec and may be less than what we need if small. A larger donut allows spiral winding (twice at least) around the core. If instead of RG-58 in above test, I then use plain, solid wire. Again about 1/4-wavelength. Scope sensitivity will have to be readjusted...a lot! If I lengthen the wire to random length (nonresonant), way down. If I then take a 1" ferrite cylinder with even 3/8" ID, pass the wire through it and near the BNC input, scope trace is way down. Make one spiral turn around the ferrite, way down again. So, ideally, the wire should be spiral-wound around a donut a couple times. For instrumentation as the victim device, I'd try input wires first, like sensor wires. Ten of millivolts on the 14V or ground wire shouldn't matter much. Google: ferrite core suppressor, for ideas, sources, and white papers on the science. Rather than undo wiring, I'd first try the plastic encased clamp-on suppressors. One may be able to liberate one off a consumer device wall charger, and affix it around the wire bundle to the instrument. To see if we're going in the right direction. Reg, Fred F.


    Message 19


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    Time: 03:27:56 PM PST US
    From: sqwk7000@cotswoldwireless.co.uk
    Subject: Europa - how much does it really cost?
    --> Europa-List message posted by: sqwk7000@cotswoldwireless.co.uk Hi Everyone, Yes, G-SHSH is for sale - it's mine. I was advised that a realistic price to ask is GBP 32,000. It is very well built (I would say that, wouldn't I?), light (789lb) but well equipped. TT 41 hours. Rotax 912, Classic mono. Factory trailer GBP 1,000. I offered it for sale at GBP 33,000 last year. There was considerable interest but no firm buyer at that price. On the other hand, I did not advertise extensively because I was uncertain whether I really wanted to part with it. I propose to advertise more fully this spring. If there is anyone out there interested, contact me off-forum for more details. Why spend 2,500 hours (several years) building, when you can buy a completed one for half the total price? David PS A thorough checkout with an experienced mono pilot/coach should save you the cost of a new prop in the first year. Quoting Pete Lawless <pete@lawless.info>: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Pete Lawless" <pete@lawless.info> > > Terry if you are looking for a good Classic G-SHSH is for sale at > Kemble. Nice light aeroplane with only 30 hours ish on from new. > > Its parked just behind mine. > > Regards > > Pete > >> > Just one thing though. If you purchase a mono wheel version, expect to > break > a propeller in the first 12 months of ownership (unless you are > extremely > lucky).


    Message 20


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    Time: 05:32:02 PM PST US
    From: "Michael Grass" <M.Grass@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Europa - how much does it really cost?
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Michael Grass" <M.Grass@comcast.net> >Why spend 2,500 hours (several years) building, when you can buy a >completed one for half the total price? Easy, because you miss out the fun and challenge to built it and have it the way you want it. Michael Grass A266 Trigear Detroit ----- Original Message ----- From: <sqwk7000@cotswoldwireless.co.uk> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 6:07 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Europa - how much does it really cost? > --> Europa-List message posted by: sqwk7000@cotswoldwireless.co.uk > > Hi Everyone, > > Yes, G-SHSH is for sale - it's mine. > > I was advised that a realistic price to ask is GBP 32,000. It is very > well built (I would say that, wouldn't I?), light (789lb) but well > equipped. TT 41 hours. Rotax 912, Classic mono. Factory trailer GBP > 1,000. > > I offered it for sale at GBP 33,000 last year. There was considerable > interest but no firm buyer at that price. On the other hand, I did not > advertise extensively because I was uncertain whether I really wanted to > part with it. I propose to advertise more fully this spring. > > If there is anyone out there interested, contact me off-forum for more > details. > > Why spend 2,500 hours (several years) building, when you can buy a > completed one for half the total price? > > David > > > PS A thorough checkout with an experienced mono pilot/coach should save > you the cost of a new prop in the first year. > > > Quoting Pete Lawless <pete@lawless.info>: > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Pete Lawless" <pete@lawless.info> >> >> Terry if you are looking for a good Classic G-SHSH is for sale at >> Kemble. Nice light aeroplane with only 30 hours ish on from new. >> >> Its parked just behind mine. >> >> Regards >> >> Pete >> >>> >> Just one thing though. If you purchase a mono wheel version, expect to >> break >> a propeller in the first 12 months of ownership (unless you are >> extremely >> lucky). > > >


    Message 21


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    Time: 05:33:14 PM PST US
    From: "gdhetrick" <gdh@isp.com>
    Subject: Re: Europa - how much does it really cost?
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "gdhetrick" <gdh@isp.com> Jeff, Check www.controller.com. Dale ----- Original Message ----- From: "JEFF ROBERTS" <jeff@rmmm.net> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 1:42 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa - how much does it really cost? > --> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS <jeff@rmmm.net> > > >> >> A good quality aircraft could fetch in excess of 35,000 then but you >> would >> be lucky to achieve 30,000 for a similar aircraft now and I suspect >> for a >> quick sale, 25,000 would be nearer the mark. > > Wow Carl, > If I can buy built Europa's across the pond for 25 to 35K I'm coming > across soon. To buy a new kit here is alone $36K! Of course I don't > think they'll sell many at that price. > Jeff > A258 > >> >> Just one thing though. If you purchase a mono wheel version, expect to >> break >> a propeller in the first 12 months of ownership (unless you are >> extremely >> lucky). Cost 500 approx or more if it is a VP prop. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "TERRY SMITH" <skyguard33-register@yahoo.co.uk> >> To: <europa-list@matronics.com> >> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 6:44 PM >> Subject: Europa-List: Europa - how much does it really cost? >> >> >>> --> Europa-List message posted by: "TERRY SMITH" >>> <skyguard33-register@yahoo.co.uk> >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> In looking at the possibility of purchasing a (secondhand) Europa I >>> wondered if anyone would be prepared to comment on the two >>> 'imponderable >>> questions' relating to aircraft ownership: >>> >>> 1. How much are you spending on maintenance per year (say 100 hours >>> use)??? >>> >>> 2. What is the collective wisdom on the depreciation I should budget >>> for? >>> >>> I appreciate that the desire to own and fly a Europa should easily >>> outweigh these very mundane matters but any sensible comments would be >>> welcomed!!!! >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Terry. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 22


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    Time: 07:03:21 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Europa - how much does it really cost?
    From: "europa flugzeug fabrik" <n3eu@comcast.net>
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "europa flugzeug fabrik" <n3eu@comcast.net> [quote="jeff(at)rmmm.net"] > To buy a new kit here [in U.S.] is alone $36K! Of course I don't think they'll sell many at that price. Doing the currency conversion on the 4 stages of the just the monowheel kit, it seems like with overseas/domestic shipping it could be well into the low 40's now in USD. Not that our dollar continues to tank or anything like that! Anybody know what recent U.S. kit sales are? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=11994#11994


    Message 23


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    Time: 08:52:44 PM PST US
    From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
    Subject: Mounting the 914
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca> I have just come from a disheartening day of adjustment of the mountings for the 914. This development is the result of some unfortunate decisions taken too early and with which I now have to contend. As I mentioned in an earlier email, I had difficulty in assembling the Lord mounts and metal cups in order to instal the bolts AN5-41s which are only able to contain the rubber mounts once the latter are comprssed. Thanks to several for the suggestions of using substitute bolts to begin with, so that the mounts can be pre-compressed. What eventuated was that I found some plain metal straps (about 1"x5"x1/8") - used for strapping to wooden joints for security - and cutting and bending these as 'clips' when the temporary bolts are removed in favour of the real thing. These are formed so as to produce a shape with 1/2inch arms at 90deg to a body which will grasp an object 1-15/16" long (that is the length of the compressed Lordmount - metal cup to metal cup. Being simple steel they are easily thumped into adjust to clip over the cups (two per setup) such that either end of the accompanying frame can be reached without blanking the 1/2" hex head or castellated nut. Drawings direct on request. Once you have clipped these onto either side, you can then ease the temp. bolt out and gingerly insert the AN5-41and have space to spin on the nut. I am not looking forwqard to the same attempt when adding the requisite thin washers for shim to cant 914 1.5deg starboard to the bottom port bolt . But I don't know an y better way. (Your number of shim washers will vary of course). I have now had the 914 on and off four times - once to assess length of engine harness required ahead of firewall, once to try to install AN5 bolts, again to test for engine shim (AN906-516L washers are 0.05" thick and appear to make a difference of 0.186" when the distances are measured. I was out by about 1/2" so needed 4 wahers top and bottom. The book says do only one bolt but of course both top and bottom are required. Have I gone on enough? Happy landings Ferg


    Message 24


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    Time: 09:19:04 PM PST US
    From: "Cliff Shaw" <flyinggpa@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Europa - how much does it really cost?
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Cliff Shaw" <flyinggpa@comcast.net> All I am not so happy with the declining price of used Europas in the US. With out a strong factory presence, the price seems to be slipping. I saw a sale from an estate for a XS with a 914 go for about 45K. It needed so touching up and has not been flown for over a year, but still it is a fine airplane. The new owner is very happy to have gotten it for that price. I saw him Friday at his hanger in Olympia, Washington, USA. He is caption for Hawaii Airline, planning on retiring in a few years. I have to tell him about this forum someday. Cliff Shaw 1041 Euclid ave. Edmonds, WA 98020 425 776 5555 http://www.europaowners.org/WileE > To buy a new kit here [in U.S.] is alone $36K! Of course I don't think they'll sell many at that price. Doing the currency conversion on the 4 stages of the just the monowheel kit, it seems like with overseas/domestic shipping it could be well into the low 40's now in USD. Not that our dollar continues to tank or anything like that! Anybody know what recent U.S. kit sales are?


    Message 25


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    Time: 10:25:13 PM PST US
    Subject: Mounting the 914
    From: "Tony Krzyzewski" <tonyk@kaon.co.nz>
    --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony Krzyzewski" <tonyk@kaon.co.nz> >>I have just come from a disheartening day of adjustment of the mountings for >>the 914. This development is the result of some unfortunate decisions taken >>too early and with which I now have to contend.... I used ratchet clamps around the cups to squeeze the lord mounts and found the 914 engine alignment process quite straight forward. It took me six remounts during a day to get everything aligned correctly. As with most things with this aircraft, if it's driving you mad.. there's probably a better way! You may have all guessed, I'M BACK!!!!! I've just spent the past two rather disheartening years fighting lawyers and actually came out the other side in reasonable shape so it's about time this bird of mine took to the air. I must say that placing an order for a Dynon FlightDEK 180 did help the enthusiasm a bit!! :) For those wanting to buy some conventional instruments at a 'reasonable' price I'll be putting up a for sale list on my web site soon. Regards Tony


    Message 26


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    Time: 11:13:44 PM PST US
    Subject: Monowheel spring for downlatch
    From: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
    --> Europa-List message posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us> Installed a spring for Monowheel down-latch tonight. Works great. There is no way it is going to hang in the up position. I purchased .033" Stainless Steel spring-wire from McMaster Carr. If anyone would like some, I have plenty. Ron Parigoris




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