Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:42 AM - andair (Paul Stewart)
2. 01:51 AM - Re: andair (Gilles Thesee)
3. 02:53 AM - build cost (danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk)
4. 03:25 AM - Re: andair (G-IANI)
5. 04:51 AM - Re: andair (R.C.Harrison)
6. 05:14 AM - Re: build cost (EuropaXSA276@aol.com)
7. 05:40 AM - Re: build cost (sqwk7000@cotswoldwireless.co.uk)
8. 06:42 AM - Re: andair (Rob Neils, Ph.D.)
9. 06:45 AM - Re: andair (Paul McAllister)
10. 09:31 AM - Re: build cost (Bryan Allsop)
11. 10:44 AM - Re: build cost (danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk)
12. 04:03 PM - Tuft Testing (Kingsley Hurst)
13. 05:04 PM - Re: Tuft Testing (Duncan McFadyean)
14. 06:24 PM - Re: andair (SPurpura@aol.com)
15. 07:05 PM - Re: Tuft Testing (Kingsley Hurst)
Message 1
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Stewart <europa@pstewart.f2s.com>
Is anyone flying a 914 with the andair mini gascolator (gas125).
Although Andair say for upto 140hp engines wiull it cope with the
fuel flow requireed of the 914?
Regards
Paul
G-GIDY
Message 2
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Hi Paul,
> Is anyone flying a 914 with the andair mini gascolator (gas125).
We are.
>
> Although Andair say for upto 140hp engines wiull it cope with the
> fuel flow requireed of the 914?
>
>
No problem. You'll find some flow numbers on my 'regulato'r page :
http://contrails.free.fr/engine_regul_en.php
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 3
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk" <danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk>
Hi All,
Just read "Owning & Operating" in Today's Pilot, featuring
Bryan Allsop's Europa (Sadie). Steve Beebee who wrote the article
states that the build cost should be about 33k. Have I done something
wrong ? so far I have spent 35k and have yet to purchase the engine and
avionics. :'(
Danny G-c.e.r.i
getting close and still raiding the piggy bank
Message 4
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "G-IANI" <g-iani@ntlworld.com>
Is anyone flying a 914 with the Andair mini gascolator?
Experience with G-IANI and G-IRON is that the mini gascolator is fine.
Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
Message 5
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@tiscali.co.uk>
Hi! Paul
This will cause some sniggers !
When my 3300 Jabiru was using 6 imp galls per hour there was no problem
whatever and I'm assured by the 914 community that they all use lots
less than that !
Wise decision to fit one, only thing better would be two one for the
reserve line also.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Stewart
Sent: 03 May 2006 09:37
Subject: Europa-List: andair
--> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Stewart
<europa@pstewart.f2s.com>
Is anyone flying a 914 with the andair mini gascolator (gas125).
Although Andair say for upto 140hp engines wiull it cope with the
fuel flow requireed of the 914?
Regards
Paul
G-GIDY
Message 6
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--> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com
Danny:
It is apparent that you and I are using the same accountant.
Cant be done for 33k
ESPECIALLY since Keith gave me the opportunity to purchase some components
twice!
Do not archive.
Brian Skelly
Europa XS TriGear #A276
North Texas USA
You can see my build photos at:
http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS
Message 7
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--> Europa-List message posted by: sqwk7000@cotswoldwireless.co.uk
Hi,
I agree. Mine, completed nearly 3 years ago cost GBP40,000 and that was
using kit purchased in 1994. Recently, I have seen it realistically
costed at GBP79,000 for someone starting now.
BTW mine is still for sale at araound the GBP30,000 mark!
David
G-SHSH Mono Classic 912, TT 43 hours
> --> Europa-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com
>
> Danny:
> It is apparent that you and I are using the same accountant.
> Cant be done for 33k
> ESPECIALLY since Keith gave me the opportunity to purchase some components
> twice!
>
> Do not archive.
>
> Brian Skelly
> Europa XS TriGear #A276
> North Texas USA
> You can see my build photos at:
> http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS
>
>
Message 8
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Cc: rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Rob Neils, Ph.D." <robneils@qwest.net>
I'm flying my Europa Tri-gear motorglider with a 914 turbo with an
intercooler and a single mini Andair gasolator. I've had a problem with
rapid EGT peaking above 3800 rpm which, thank goodness, powers the MG up =
at
300 fpm. Needless to say, I've been doing a lot of sleuthing to fix =
this
condition. The CHT never went out the top.
=20
At first I thought it was the Andair. I cleaned it thoroughly but it =
didn't
resolve the problem. =20
=20
I checked the tank vent line from the top of the tank to where it hooks =
into
the tube extending out the top of the fuselage by blowing into the line =
and
listening for bubbles to burble up into the tank. The fuel sight line
enters the bottom of the port saddle right next to where the gas exits =
the
foot of the saddle. I took the 11 1/2 inch aluminum vent tube out and =
bent
it so that when reinstalled it touched the front top of the tank because =
as
the MG climbs in a nose up attitude the fuel level vacates the front of =
the
tank first so that's where the outside air should enter the tank. It =
didn't
help. I'd still have EGT readings within normal limits until the tach =
read
above 3700 rpms. Once above this level the EGTs on all four cylinders =
would
rapidly climb above 1500 and I'd throttle back.
=20
I though of changing the needle valve setting but I feared that would =
just
mask the problem even if it worked. I hadn't diagnosed it yet.
=20
I tried using aviation gas instead of auto gas. It didn't help. I
disconnected the intake fuel line at the engine and using the fuel pumps
hooked up in parallel, I began to drain the auto fuel so I could replace =
it
with aviation fuel and maybe get better cooling. But while emptying the
port tank I could hear burgling! There was no bugling as I drained the
starboard saddle! =20
=20
The sight tube enters the port saddle right where the fuel exits. I =
figured
that once the fuel flow reached a critical point the sight gauge fuel =
level
was sucked down until air entered the tank. At a high fuel flow rate =
these
bubbles, right next to the fuel line, were being sucked into the fuel =
line.
I disconnected the fuel tank vent at the top of the fuselage, put my =
finger
over the end to block air intake, ran up the engine and, sure enough, =
the
EGT peaked and...finally...I watched the fuel level in to sight gauge
disappear. How could this be?
=20
So I figured it had to be a block in the fuel tank vent tube installed =
at
the top of the fuselage. Because I couldn=92t imagine who it could get
plugged I hadn't checked it. I checked it now and found it totally =
plugged!
I have gone through extreme pains to make my MG as slippery as possible =
and
faired in the two vent tubes. The fuselage looks like a fish with a =
tiny
dorsal fin. Somehow I'd plugged it with a dab of epoxy! =20
=20
This explained the cause of my problem...or, to be even more logical, it
explained a problem but the problem could have another underlying =
problem.=20
=20
I'd had two unintended engine-off landings and, though I'm a glider =
pilot, I
didn't want another beyond my control.
=20
Throughout this process I've been communicating with Ron Paragoris and, =
Ron,
I thank you for you clear thinking and sound advice.
=20
I just order a second mini Andair. I'll install it in parallel.
=20
I've also ordered a UMA 1 =BC=94 Fuel/Airbox Pressure gauge with red =
markings at
2.1 psi and 5.0 psi with a green arc between. You can get one from Ed =
at
ed@umainstruments.com.=20
=20
The problem which may underlie the plugged tank vent is the problem of
less-than-adequate fuel pressure being overridden by the MAP in the =
airbox
being higher than the fuel pressure thus fuel starving the carburetor. =
The
UMA gauge shows the difference between the two in a little "steam =
gauge." =20
=20
Ron explained it to me well so(I hope you don=92t mind, Ron)here=92s his =
exact
words:
=20
Fluid seeks its own level. I think you may want to fool with a few soda
bottles to convince yourself what I say. Lets say we took a 2 liter soda
bottle and melted a 1/4" hole in the bottom of it. Lets fill it with =
water
and put the cap on it. It will not drain because atmosphere can not get =
in
to replace water. OK now lets drill a hole just below threads the size =
of a
drinking straw (corrugated to allow easy bend) or some soft copper or
aluminium, make this vent go up 1 or 2 feet. OK try experiment again, =
cover
vent and get no flow, finger off and get flow. OK you now have visual. =
OK
now lets put an extension on the bottle, lets say a garden hose or go to =
a
good hardware store and get something to extend up to height of the =
vent.
When you fill, of course the water will seek the same level in the fill =
as
in the vent, and when you experiment, you will find as long as air can =
get
into the vent, it will drain.
=20
I think you ran out of gas, I suspect restriction of fuel flow. I will
describe below that it is not fuel flow into a container that has =
ambient
pressure on it that you tested, but lack of flow into a container that =
is
pressurized to 40 inches of mercury, that you in fact did test, and your
plane failed the test.
=20
Please call John Hurst at Lockwood Aviation, and talk to him a bit on
differential pressure requirements of 914 if you can.
=20
Fuel flow on a 914 into an ambient container is pretty moot. The fuel =
flow
on a 914 could be 50 plus gallons with 2 pumps running in parallel on =
the
ground, less as per Rotax/new Europa.=20
=20
If you only have 1 GAS125, there is no way I would trust it to provide =
ample
fuel supply, I would not trust 2 GAS125s. Forget it if you have supplied
filters and a GAS125, too much restriction. If it worked once, it was =
only
an unbelievable minor clog away from no way.
=20
Did you read Rotax recommendation in Service manual that describes
differential requirements?
=20
OK 1 more time, when you are at take off power the airbox gets =
pressurized.
Unless you have 2 to 5 pounds more fuel pressure than airbox pressure, =
you
will run out of gas as you describe. At this point in time if you were =
to do
a simple test like see if the fuel pump will pump fuel into a container,
even with a restriction of course it will. That test is moot. Now if you
were to put that container under an absolute pressure of 40 inches of
mercury on the ground, well you best get at least what the engine is
drinking. I will repeat it below, you need more pressure to overcome
gravity, so when testing pitch nose up.
=20
If you want to perform that test, that will show what is really =
happening.
Yes I know the GAS125 is expensive and beautiful, ditch it. Remember =
when
you climb, nose high you need even more fuel pressure.=20
=20
If you must fly before you get a differential pressure gauge, put in the
supplied filters only. I would take off to a comfortable height at no =
more
than 100% power, then when you feel comfortable then fool with 115%, =
this
will stack running out of fuel at low altitude in your favor. Less power
even better if it does not comprimise flight.
=20
If you need absolute scientific convincing, place your bird nose up as =
in
climb, plumb the output of the fuel pressure regulator to a translucent =
or
glass container. It must be sealed, then take a manifold pressure gauge =
with
one of those hand pumps, or a bicycle pumps and keep pressure begin at =
40
inches absolute, you want to see at least 10 GPH at least to be safe, =
then
begin increasing pressure till you fall below the 10GPH. You may need a
relief valve, a fishtank style should be adequate for this test.=20
=20
Before you clean your GAS125 try that, then try the factory filters. If =
you
can't get at least 10GPH at 40 inches you will be run out of gas.
=20
You can even try same test in cruise attitude, climb attitude and tail
almost on ground, you will see for yourself in inches of mercury exact =
what
each attitude will yield.=20
=20
If you have an accurate MP gauge, if you kept the boost to 2 inches less
than whatever flowed 10 GPH you should be safe.
=20
Flow into ambient pressure is not much a test on a 914. On 912 or 912S =
it is
an OK test. You need to test against full power boost pressure in =
airbox,
and want 2 to 5 PSI over that.
=20
I am sorry for repeating myself, and circling the wagon and looking at =
it
from different angles, but this is important.
=20
Differential gauge, redline at 2 PSI, go below redline and needle begins =
to
jump, probably 20 seconds from engine failure, reduce power right now to
where you have at least 2 PSI, I don't care if it is 100 FPM down, that =
is
max power you can maintain.=20
=20
On take off roll, if you are not in green abort take off.
=20
When I explained the on the ground mock test of pumping the output of =
the
fuel pressure regulator into a sealed container to simulate overcoming
airbox pressure, I forgot to mention you will need to connect the =
diaphram
to the 40 inch mercury pressure as well!
=20
The regulator is controlled by this diaphram, and it is critical on 914s
that this hose that goes from fuel pressure regulator to airbox is in
pristine shape, no leaks or restrictions.
=20
A real balancing act as you see. Once you understand (that very very few
folk do) it is not that difficult. Problem is many a folk working on the =
914
apply normal aspirated think to it, and it is different.
=20
Rob, again.
=20
So yesterday, after cleaning out the plugged tank vent I flew the MG and =
had
no problem with the EGT at high power and high nose up. Still I=92m =
going to
install a second mini Andair and the UMA pressure differential gauge.
=20
By the way, I=92ve uploaded pictures to the gallery of N128HW (prounced =
=93I too
ate hotel whiskey=94, hic up) in the air.
=20
Rob Neils
=20
Spokane WA
Message 9
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
Paul,
I have one and it works fine, but if I was to do it over again I would put
in two, one in the reserve line.
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Paul Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 3:37 AM
Subject: Europa-List: andair
--> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Stewart <europa@pstewart.f2s.com>
Is anyone flying a 914 with the andair mini gascolator (gas125).
Although Andair say for upto 140hp engines wiull it cope with the
fuel flow requireed of the 914?
Regards
Paul
G-GIDY
Message 10
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Bryan Allsop" <bryan@blackballclub.com>
Hi Danny,
I have not read Steve's article yet, but you must bear in mind that he is a
reporter!!! I cannot recall what I said to him, but I am quite sure that my
opinion is not that you can build a Europa today for 33k.
I finished building Sadie in December 1999, and she cost me about 35k then,
so it must be a lot more now.
Having said that, if you have yet to purchase the engine and avionics, where
did the rest of the money go?
I must dash out and buy a copy of Today's Pilot now and find out what else I
have not said. Did he feature the heated seats ,and the leopard skin
curtains?
Cheers Bryan
----- Original Message -----
From: <danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 10:52 AM
Subject: Europa-List: build cost
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk"
> <danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk>
>
> Hi All,
> Just read "Owning & Operating" in Today's Pilot, featuring
> Bryan Allsop's Europa (Sadie). Steve Beebee who wrote the article
> states that the build cost should be about 33k. Have I done something
> wrong ? so far I have spent 35k and have yet to purchase the engine and
> avionics. :'(
>
> Danny G-c.e.r.i
>
> getting close and still raiding the piggy bank
>
>
>
Message 11
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk" <danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk>
Hi Bryan,
I must admit I had the accelerated stage one kit which added almost 3k.
I also haven't skimped with the mods, ie finger brakes, fuel gauge, inst
panel, stall warner, strobes, graham Singleton's firewall and rudder
mod, led nav lights (Fred Klien) etc etc. Also had the panel Nexeled and
fitted the instruments. I seem to have spent a kings ransom with Spruce!!
On the up side, My baby ( as the wife calls her ) is nearly ready for
final painting. Hopefully I will be fitting the engine in September.
Sorry no mention of the heated seats and leopard skin curtains!!!
Cheers Danny
G-c.e.r.i
Bryan Allsop wrote:
>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Bryan Allsop" <bryan@blackballclub.com>
>
>Hi Danny,
>
>I have not read Steve's article yet, but you must bear in mind that he is a
>reporter!!! I cannot recall what I said to him, but I am quite sure that my
>opinion is not that you can build a Europa today for 33k.
>
>I finished building Sadie in December 1999, and she cost me about 35k then,
>so it must be a lot more now.
>
>Having said that, if you have yet to purchase the engine and avionics, where
>did the rest of the money go?
>
>I must dash out and buy a copy of Today's Pilot now and find out what else I
>have not said. Did he feature the heated seats ,and the leopard skin
>curtains?
>
>Cheers Bryan
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk>
>To: "matronics" <europa-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 10:52 AM
>Subject: Europa-List: build cost
>
>
>
>
>>--> Europa-List message posted by: "danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk"
>><danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk>
>>
>>Hi All,
>> Just read "Owning & Operating" in Today's Pilot, featuring
>>Bryan Allsop's Europa (Sadie). Steve Beebee who wrote the article
>>states that the build cost should be about 33k. Have I done something
>>wrong ? so far I have spent 35k and have yet to purchase the engine and
>>avionics. :'(
>>
>>Danny G-c.e.r.i
>>
>>getting close and still raiding the piggy bank
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
All,
Is anyone able to provide me with tuft testing results on the airflow
around the side of a Classic Europa engine cowl ?
I am trying to determine the best orientation for a NACA scoop for the
air intake to the engine. I would prefer to have this inlet on the side
rather than the top of the cowl.
Thanks
Kingsley in Oz
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Tuft Testing |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Why?
The top of the cowl (towards the windscreen and away from the nose) is a
high pressure area, whereas the sides of the cowl are low pressure.
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:59 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Tuft Testing
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst"
> <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
>
> All,
>
> Is anyone able to provide me with tuft testing results on the airflow
> around the side of a Classic Europa engine cowl ?
>
> I am trying to determine the best orientation for a NACA scoop for the
> air intake to the engine. I would prefer to have this inlet on the side
> rather than the top of the cowl.
>
> Thanks
>
> Kingsley in Oz
>
>
>
Message 14
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--> Europa-List message posted by: SPurpura@aol.com
ROB, YOUR HIGH EGT MAY BE CAUSED BY A MIXTURE THAT IS 2 LEAN.
I HAD THE OPPOSITE PROBLEM (LOW EGT'S) AND RESET THE NEEDLE PLUNGER.
SAM, 914 & 370 HRS(:=D8 )=20
Message 15
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
> Why?
> The top of the cowl (towards the windscreen and away from the nose) is
a
> high pressure area, whereas the sides of the cowl are low pressure.
Point taken thank you Duncan but it is just that I am not real keen on
the way the factory plenum seals on the cowl. I would have preferred to
have a Scat hose from the NACA vent to the plenum.
I will rethink.
BTW, don't you go to bed at night ?
Cheers
Kingsley
Do not archive
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