---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 05/19/06: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:43 AM - Nosewheel Shimmy (Brian and Pat Tarmar) 2. 01:50 AM - Re: Steel nose wheel springs (bill bell) 3. 02:14 AM - Re: Nosewheel Shimmy (Richard Holder) 4. 02:16 AM - Re: Steel nose wheel springs (Tim Weert) 5. 02:25 AM - Re: Steel nose wheel springs (Tim Weert) 6. 02:45 AM - Re: Nosewheel Shimmy (R.C.Harrison) 7. 02:45 AM - Re: Nosewheel Shimmy (peter.rees01@tiscali.co.uk) 8. 03:03 AM - Re: Steel nose wheel springs (G-IANI) 9. 04:22 AM - Re: Steel nose wheel springs (N.T. Groot) 10. 05:27 AM - Re: Steel nose wheel springs (R.C.Harrison) 11. 05:33 AM - Re: Re: Trigear Caliper MSC269P (Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com) 12. 05:50 AM - Re: Steel nose wheel springs (Jos Okhuijsen) 13. 06:01 PM - Re: Nosewheel Shimmy (Timothy.P.Ward) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:43:01 AM PST US From: "Brian and Pat Tarmar" Subject: Europa-List: Nosewheel Shimmy --> Europa-List message posted by: "Brian and Pat Tarmar" The current high winds in the UK remind me of the problem which has = occurred to me twice this year after a crosswind departure from home = base (Old Sarum - a fairly bumpy grass airfield) with a subsequent = landing on a hard runway without significant crosswind. Having = taken-off with a 15-25 knot crosswind (from the right in both cases - = the "best" side), severe nosewheel shimmy was encountered on landing, = which continued until the aircraft was brought to rest. Not pleasant = waiting for something to break, and unable to do anything about it. = Fortunately no damage on either occasion. Has anyone else encountered = this problem, and is there a remedy? The friction on the (so called) = shimmy damper was checked as between 8-9 Kgs on both occasions. Ian = Rickard has suggested that I reduce friction to around 5-6 Kgs in the = hope that slipstream will straighten the nosewheel in flight from any = inadvertant sidethrust imparted during rotation. Brian Tarmar G-OBJT 055 Classic Trigear, 912S/Warpdrive and XS front/mods 65 hours and still smiling when it ain't shimmying! ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:50:10 AM PST US From: bill bell Subject: RE: Europa-List: Steel nose wheel springs --> Europa-List message posted by: bill bell Thanks to Nico Groot , Ian Rickard and all those involved in producing mod 71 and making it available to the rest of us- and the factory. Having now read the PFA paperwork I'm puzzled as to why the springs are a left and right handed pair rather than two identical springs. I'm sure there is a good reason and perhaps I should ask Nico or Ian directly, but I thought the answer would be of general interest.... Bill & Sue Trigear 465 fitting the springs... Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:14:53 AM PST US From: Richard Holder Subject: Re: Europa-List: Nosewheel Shimmy --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder Brian and Pat Tarmar wrote: > The current high winds in the UK remind me of the > problem which has occurred to me twice this year after > a crosswind departure from home base (Old Sarum - a > fairly bumpy grass airfield) with a subsequent landing > on a hard runway without significant crosswind. Having > taken-off with a 15-25 knot crosswind (from the right > in both cases - the "best" side), severe nosewheel > shimmy was encountered on landing, which continued > until the aircraft was brought to rest. Not pleasant > waiting for something to break, and unable to do > anything about it. Fortunately no damage on either > occasion. Has anyone else encountered this problem, and > is there a remedy? The friction on the (so called) > shimmy damper was checked as between 8-9 Kgs on both > occasions. Ian Rickard has suggested that I reduce > friction to around 5-6 Kgs in the hope that slipstream > will straighten the nosewheel in flight from any > inadvertant sidethrust imparted during rotation. > Brian Tarmar G-OBJT 055 Classic Trigear, > 912S/Warpdrive and XS front/mods 65 hours and still > smiling when it ain't shimmying! I would say the opposite ! The shimmy is the nosewheel moving from side to side on the ground when landing. Any deflection from central on take-off may make the first shimmy movement but once the oscillation starts looseness of the damper will actually make it worse. I would suggest tightening up the "big nut" one flat and trying it again. Maybe two flats. If it is too tight it will not want to steer on the ground (but it won't shimmy !) I took mine apart on my annual and found that there were a lot of grooves in the plastic (damping) disc and there was some cr*p in there as well. I cleaned it all up, including the metal surfaces and then I turned the plastic disc over to give me a new smooth surface. I had it tight before and the movement was in jerks. Now it is very smooth, and no shimmy. And it steers on the ground (most of the time !) G-OWWW is exactly the same as yours - Classic Tri-Gear, XS FWF, 912S but I have an Airmaster. Richard ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:16:46 AM PST US From: "Tim Weert" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Steel nose wheel springs --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tim Weert" Steve, I cannot find MOD 71 on the Europa site. According my information it is an Europa Club MOD. I have the approval data from Ian Rickart who did the approval request with the English PFA. The data is based on the properties I have placed on the website of http://www.europaowners.org If it would be an official Europa04 MOD, I agree you all have to order them by Andy. If Europa04 doesn't trade, they cannot survive. Europa04 and Andy deserve it! It's is important for all Europa builders and owners to keep Europa 04 alive! In that case I keep my hands off. But unfortunately I didn't see a "MOD71"on their website jet....(?) So, until it is just an Europaclub MOD, the MOD is based on Nico's data, our experience and we payed much more for our springs because we ordered just one set in a time for ourselves.......Nico and Rob even had also the first set of springs installed which were not tight enough. So they are the real pioneers. I didn't earn a penny out of it, (it only cost me money to order, collect for Europafilles and fly them to diverent places) neather did Nico or Jac. For us it's just a part of the hobby. The only diverence Ian made was that we originally used two springs completely the same. In the offical Club Mod describtion there is a left winded and right winded ciol spring (mirror) with the same properties. That is what we changed in the last order for Jac. Our springs are made from stainless steel and after one and a half year of service I can tell you it works fine ! Lets first see what the status is of "MOD 71". Regards, Tim. Heerhugowaard, The Netherlands. #460 PH-JAI XS TG 914 AP332 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Pitt" Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 8:20 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Steel nose wheel springs > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Steven Pitt" > > > Hear, hear. Without taking anything away from the Dutch guys who > introduced > the concept and the early springs, Ian Rickard and Terry Clarke, in the > UK, > have put a lot of work in for Europa 04, recognised by Andy and the > Company, > to design, supply and support Europa with Mod 71, at no gain to > themselves. > Please support the Company. > Steve Pitt G-SMDH #403 > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:25:13 AM PST US From: "Tim Weert" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Steel nose wheel springs --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tim Weert" Hi Bill, Durig testing the springs in my bird, I discovered that the right spring touches the rod between the springs. In concert with Nico I placed a piece of nylon between the spring and the rod. By using two mirror springs you are able to place both springs at exactly the same place, but in mirror configuration. Due to this the forces on all parts are equally devided in the nosegear structure. Than this problem is solved. Regards, Tim. Heerhugowaard, The Netherlands. #460 PH-JAI XS TG 914 AP332 ----- Original Message ----- From: "bill bell" Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 10:49 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Steel nose wheel springs > --> Europa-List message posted by: bill bell > > Thanks to Nico Groot , Ian Rickard and all those involved in producing mod > 71 and making it available to the rest of us- and the factory. Having now > read the PFA paperwork I'm puzzled as to why the springs are a left and > right handed pair rather than two identical springs. > I'm sure there is a good reason and perhaps I should ask Nico or Ian > directly, but I thought the answer would be of general interest.... > > > Bill & Sue > > Trigear 465 fitting the springs... > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:45:28 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Nosewheel Shimmy --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! Brian IMHO increase the shimmy damper load to 12kg and take off with the stick held back to get the nose "flying" as early as possible. On Landing keep the stick back and so reduce the weight on the nose wheel even at slow speeds it reduces the weight on the wheel which has to be good news for it. My take off procedure is always to set up the line by differential braking then simultaneously hit full right rudder as you hit full throttle to keep the take off line. Only very rarely is the right rudder relaxed during the entire take off run and I can never remember requiring any left rudder in fact I take up the attitude that I have only one leg.(this is with right hand tractor prop wash) Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300 -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian and Pat Tarmar Sent: 19 May 2006 09:38 Subject: Europa-List: Nosewheel Shimmy --> Europa-List message posted by: "Brian and Pat Tarmar" The current high winds in the UK remind me of the problem which has = occurred to me twice this year after a crosswind departure from home = base (Old Sarum - a fairly bumpy grass airfield) with a subsequent = landing on a hard runway without significant crosswind. Having = taken-off with a 15-25 knot crosswind (from the right in both cases - = the "best" side), severe nosewheel shimmy was encountered on landing, = which continued until the aircraft was brought to rest. Not pleasant = waiting for something to break, and unable to do anything about it. = Fortunately no damage on either occasion. Has anyone else encountered = this problem, and is there a remedy? The friction on the (so called) = shimmy damper was checked as between 8-9 Kgs on both occasions. Ian = Rickard has suggested that I reduce friction to around 5-6 Kgs in the = hope that slipstream will straighten the nosewheel in flight from any = inadvertant sidethrust imparted during rotation. Brian Tarmar G-OBJT 055 Classic Trigear, 912S/Warpdrive and XS front/mods 65 hours and still smiling when it ain't shimmying! ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:45:28 AM PST US From: peter.rees01@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: Nosewheel Shimmy --> Europa-List message posted by: peter.rees01@tiscali.co.uk I have to agree with Richard Our nose wheel damper seems to requrie fairly regular checking and tightening - when it gets a little loose, we do get a bit of shimmy - that said, we've been flying out of rochester (grass) and landing at hard runways with the friction as low as about 3kg with very little discernable shimmy. Don't know if you have to do anything about balancing the wheel in any way >-- Original Message -- >Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 10:11:56 +0100 >From: Richard Holder >To: europa-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Nosewheel Shimmy > > >--> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder > >Brian and Pat Tarmar wrote: > >> The current high winds in the UK remind me of the >> problem which has occurred to me twice this year after >> a crosswind departure from home base (Old Sarum - a >> fairly bumpy grass airfield) with a subsequent landing >> on a hard runway without significant crosswind. Having >> taken-off with a 15-25 knot crosswind (from the right >> in both cases - the "best" side), severe nosewheel >> shimmy was encountered on landing, which continued >> until the aircraft was brought to rest. Not pleasant >> waiting for something to break, and unable to do >> anything about it. Fortunately no damage on either >> occasion. Has anyone else encountered this problem, and >> is there a remedy? The friction on the (so called) >> shimmy damper was checked as between 8-9 Kgs on both >> occasions. Ian Rickard has suggested that I reduce >> friction to around 5-6 Kgs in the hope that slipstream >> will straighten the nosewheel in flight from any >> inadvertant sidethrust imparted during rotation. > >> Brian Tarmar G-OBJT 055 Classic Trigear, >> 912S/Warpdrive and XS front/mods 65 hours and still >> smiling when it ain't shimmying! > >I would say the opposite ! The shimmy is the nosewheel >moving from side to side on the ground when landing. Any >deflection from central on take-off may make the first >shimmy movement but once the oscillation starts looseness >of the damper will actually make it worse. > >I would suggest tightening up the "big nut" one flat and >trying it again. Maybe two flats. If it is too tight it >will not want to steer on the ground (but it won't shimmy !) > >I took mine apart on my annual and found that there were a >lot of grooves in the plastic (damping) disc and there was >some cr*p in there as well. I cleaned it all up, including >the metal surfaces and then I turned the plastic disc over >to give me a new smooth surface. I had it tight before and >the movement was in jerks. Now it is very smooth, and no >shimmy. And it steers on the ground (most of the time !) > >G-OWWW is exactly the same as yours - Classic Tri-Gear, XS >FWF, 912S but I have an Airmaster. > >Richard > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ Tiscali Broadband from 14.99 with free setup! http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband/ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:03:03 AM PST US From: "G-IANI" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Steel nose wheel springs --> Europa-List message posted by: "G-IANI" I hope the following will clarify the situation regarding the Nose wheel springs. 1) The factory mod 71 is based on my mod application (No 11698) which is a "standard mod". This would normally be available via the PFA web site but this link is not working yet. If anyone wants a copy of this for information I will be pleased to provide it. This mod is flying in G-IANI and we have so far done 55 landings on them. 2) As Europa(2004) has decided to adopt them as a standard option they have deco me Factory Mod 71. Documentation for Mod 71 is being prepared (and will be available on the Europa site) but will not be completed for a few days. This time is needed to 1) document in Europa house style (rather than PFA "burocratic") 2) To revise the installation photographs 3) to incorporate some useful installation tips we have found from fitting a number of pairs. 3) The mod (both 11698 and 71) is based on UK made springs (the part numbers are specified in the application). These spring have the same basic specification as the Dutch springs. Changes have been made to make fitting easier and to give a more precise fit to the top tube. The two springs are also wound in opposite directions. The cost of the more precise jig needed to make the springs is made possible by the ability to order a significant quantity. 4) The Factory is taking orders for the spring. A sample from the first batch arrived today so that dimensions, tensions and quality can be checked. 5) Sorry but I am not party to the price. Europa still have to finalise this. Every effort has been made to keep costs as reasonable as possible (but Europa does have to pay VAT). It is also worth noting that the cost of mailing a single pair to the US from the UK is greater than the cost of the springs. Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:22:21 AM PST US From: "N.T. Groot" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Steel nose wheel springs --> Europa-List message posted by: "N.T. Groot" I think, this mod is base don my idea and my pioneering. Perhaps it will be a good idea too call my name by this mod. With regards, Nico Groot. -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] Namens G-IANI Verzonden: vrijdag 19 mei 2006 12:02 Aan: europa-list@matronics.com Onderwerp: RE: Europa-List: Steel nose wheel springs --> Europa-List message posted by: "G-IANI" I hope the following will clarify the situation regarding the Nose wheel springs. 1) The factory mod 71 is based on my mod application (No 11698) which is a "standard mod". This would normally be available via the PFA web site but this link is not working yet. If anyone wants a copy of this for information I will be pleased to provide it. This mod is flying in G-IANI and we have so far done 55 landings on them. 2) As Europa(2004) has decided to adopt them as a standard option they have deco me Factory Mod 71. Documentation for Mod 71 is being prepared (and will be available on the Europa site) but will not be completed for a few days. This time is needed to 1) document in Europa house style (rather than PFA "burocratic") 2) To revise the installation photographs 3) to incorporate some useful installation tips we have found from fitting a number of pairs. 3) The mod (both 11698 and 71) is based on UK made springs (the part numbers are specified in the application). These spring have the same basic specification as the Dutch springs. Changes have been made to make fitting easier and to give a more precise fit to the top tube. The two springs are also wound in opposite directions. The cost of the more precise jig needed to make the springs is made possible by the ability to order a significant quantity. 4) The Factory is taking orders for the spring. A sample from the first batch arrived today so that dimensions, tensions and quality can be checked. 5) Sorry but I am not party to the price. Europa still have to finalise this. Every effort has been made to keep costs as reasonable as possible (but Europa does have to pay VAT). It is also worth noting that the cost of mailing a single pair to the US from the UK is greater than the cost of the springs. Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:27:00 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Steel nose wheel springs --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Yes. Nico IMHO it is past time you were recognised about this issue.........when everyone else has finished "scratching everyone else's back"! No one seems to recognise the time and effort of the guy who actually conceives the concept......I recall similar effects over my position on the blessed Mod. 70 and continued use of turnbuckles. Everyone is content to "cut up the cake" be it finance or "compliments" and forget the guy who did the "baking"! I for one will compliment you on sticking to your determination over the production of this spring concept and having once suffering a severed bungee due to the bump stop cutting it on a heavy landing I consider your development to be very constructive. BTW folks should notice that I haven't had any bungee fraying since I turned my bump stop the other way up, since it was an item of considerable derision and denial when I suggested the concept. It is possible that fraying being noticed is in fact being caused by the head of the bump stop passing through the "lays" of the tight bungee since it has to move by the same distance as the nose leg (being part of it). It certainly was in my case. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Europa MKI/Jabiru 3300 -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N.T. Groot Sent: 19 May 2006 12:14 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Steel nose wheel springs --> Europa-List message posted by: "N.T. Groot" I think, this mod is base don my idea and my pioneering. Perhaps it will be a good idea too call my name by this mod. With regards, Nico Groot. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:33:09 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: RE: Trigear Caliper MSC269P From: Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com --> Europa-List message posted by: Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com Steve, Look for Loctite PST, which I presume stands for pipe sealant teflon. Fairly easy to find in farm/auto/garage supply stores. Dave A061 Do not archive "steve v." Sent by: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com 05/18/2006 04:07 PM Please respond to europa-list To: cc: Subject: Europa-List: RE: Trigear Caliper MSC269P --> Europa-List message posted by: "steve v." Thanks Ira, i`ve never heard of TEFLON PASTE , but ill make enquiries, my seals are black, so ill assume they are OK... thanks again, steve vestuti #573 ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:50:19 AM PST US From: "Jos Okhuijsen" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Steel nose wheel springs --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jos Okhuijsen" Great thinking Mr N. T. Groot. Let's call it Mod the Great, to remind ourselves to the Greatest of the modest people. People never stop to surprise me. KInd regards, Jos Okhuijsen ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:00 PM PST US From: "Timothy.P.Ward" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Nosewheel Shimmy --> Europa-List message posted by: "Timothy.P.Ward" Solution; Conversion kit to convert to the wonderful Monowheel!!!! Sorry, couldn't help myself, no offense. Cheers, Tim > > From: "Brian and Pat Tarmar" > Date: 2006/05/19 Fri PM 08:37:42 GMT+12:00 > To: > Subject: Europa-List: Nosewheel Shimmy > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Brian and Pat Tarmar" > > The current high winds in the UK remind me of the problem which has > occurred to me twice this year after a crosswind departure from home > base (Old Sarum - a fairly bumpy grass airfield) with a subsequent > landing on a hard runway without significant crosswind. Having > taken-off with a 15-25 knot crosswind (from the right in both cases - > the "best" side), severe nosewheel shimmy was encountered on landing, > which continued until the aircraft was brought to rest. Not pleasant > waiting for something to break, and unable to do anything about it. > Fortunately no damage on either occasion. Has anyone else encountered > this problem, and is there a remedy? The friction on the (so called) > shimmy damper was checked as between 8-9 Kgs on both occasions. Ian > Rickard has suggested that I reduce friction to around 5-6 Kgs in the > hope that slipstream will straighten the nosewheel in flight from any > inadvertant sidethrust imparted during rotation. > > Brian Tarmar > G-OBJT 055 Classic Trigear, 912S/Warpdrive and XS front/mods > 65 hours and still smiling when it ain't shimmying! > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street Fendalton Christchurch. Ph. 0064 33515166 ward.t@xtra.co.nz