---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 06/07/06: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:36 AM - Re: [ Ken Hill ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Paul McAllister) 2. 08:59 AM - 914 Fuel Flows (Erich Trombley) 3. 09:31 AM - Re: 914 Fuel Flows (Gilles Thesee) 4. 12:08 PM - Re: 914 Fuel Flows (Simon Smith) 5. 12:22 PM - colin noakes (Rowland Carson) 6. 01:50 PM - Any UK Demo Volunteers (Bryan Allsop) 7. 04:04 PM - Re: Fuel Flows (Kingsley Hurst) 8. 04:34 PM - Re: radiators, coolers and colors (DJGeldermann) 9. 05:42 PM - 914 and firewall (Fergus Kyle) 10. 10:23 PM - Re: 914 and firewall (Mike Parkin) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:32 AM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: Europa-List: [ Ken Hill ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! Garry, I wish mine did that. I find 5.3 gph @ 28". Its a real pain because it limits my range for legal IFR. I have messed with the carburettor needles but I haven't made much improvment. I suspect that the taper of the needle is wrong because at 24" the EGT's sit around 1600, but at 28" they seem to run in the low 1400's. I'll have to hook my laptop up to the EIS and record a bunch more temperatures at various altitude & power settins one of these days and see what I can conclude. Paul -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Garry Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 6:23 PM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: [ Ken Hill ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! I must be either lucky, or I'm running too low a power setting. With 450 hours under my belt on my 914 tri, the average is 4.3 US GPH (mogas). I usually cruise at 4900 RPM and 31" MP..............rarely less, and sometimes 5000 RPM and 34" MP when I'm in a hurry to get someplace. I have a Whirlwind CS prop. Garry Stout ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul McAllister To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 8:17 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: [ Ken Hill ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! These flow flows are pretty similar to what I see on my 914 Mono. I have a dual sensor fuel flow on my EIS and over the last 400 hours I have found it pretty well "nuts on" for accuracy. - Paul -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of KENNETH D HILL Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 12:23 AM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Europa-List: [ Ken Hill ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! Hi Simon, I wish they were. I recently put over 1000 miles on N214KS and the fuel required to fill the tank agreed to within .1/.2 gallons of what the gauge said I used. Plugs look normal. Ken Simon Smith wrote: I think you figures might be a little suspect. The Rotax 914 Operators manual give Take off performance as 5800rpm, 39.9 inHG and 8.7 us gph. Max continuous as 5500rpm, 35.4 inHG and 7.2 us gph. (ref pages 8-2 & 10-1) Are you sure that your fuel flowe sensor is correctly calibrated? Are these airspeeds IAS or TAS? Simon -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KENNETH D HILL Sent: 05 June 2006 00:24 To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: [ Ken Hill ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! Duncan, I'm afraid this data will get rearranged but here it goes. This test was done at 5500' at a max weight of 1450lbs. with very little deviation from standard day temp. Airspeeds are within 1 kt. These airspeeds appear to stay constant up to 12,500 (the highest I've observed) 1. 100kts, FF 3.8, RPM 4500, MF 25. 2. 116kts, FF 5.0, RPM 4800, MF 28 3. 129kts, FF 6.2, RPM 5000, MF 30 4. 134kts, FF 7.6, RPM 5250, MF 33 5. 140kts, FF 8.3, RPM 5500, MF 35 6 148kts, FF 10, RPM 5800, MF 40 I'd appreciate if others would post there data. Ken Duncan McFadyean wrote:
Subject: Europa-List: 914 Fuel Flows Simon, Can't say I agree with your assessment. The MP gage in the panel is ind ependent of the airbox pressure/TCU. As part of the installation of a M P (electronic not analog) you are required to calibrate the sensor. If the sensor is off by any amount from the true MP that the engine is real ly producing then you will be incorrect in you assumption of H.P. For e xample if the pilot has not correctly calibrated the MP gage and it is r eading 31" of MP, however, in reality the engine is producing 34" then t hat would explain the excessive fuel flow for a given MP reading. Make sense. Off course too rich of a mixture could also be the cause, howeve r, with the Bing carbs this is unlikely. My fuel flows per indicated MP are very close to the published figures in the Rotax manual. Just my t wo cents. Erich Trombley N28ET Classic Mono 914 Time: 11:12:29 AM PST US From: "Simon Smith" Subject: RE: Europa-List: 914 fuel flows Surely, if the MP gauge is suspect the Airbox sensor/TCU would also have to be in error by the same amount? I initially queried the figures because I assumed (and we all know how dangerous that can be!) that the Rotax book fuel flows ought to be accurate. Simon -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Erich Trombley Sent: 06 June 2006 18:07 Cc: kandshill2@sbcglobal.net Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Europa-List: 914 fuel flows Ken, Knowing your fuel system as I do, I concur the problem is not with the fuel flow sensor. I would verify that your manifold pressure gage is properly calibrated. This would explain the excessive fuel flow per inches of mercury. I believe for each fuel flow you have listed the actual H.P. you are producing is actually greater than that corresponding to the M.P. listed. Erich Trombley N28ET Classic Mono 914 ________________________________________________________________________ Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!

Simon,

Can't say I agree with your assessment.  The MP gage in the pane l is independent of the airbox pressure/TCU.  As part of the instal lation of a MP (electronic not analog) you are required to calibrate the sensor.  If the sensor is off by any amount from the true MP that the engine is really producing then you will be incorrect in you assumpt ion of H.P.  For example if the pilot has not correctly calibrated the MP gage and it is reading 31" of MP, however, in reality the engine is producing 34" then that would explain the excessive fuel flow fo r a given MP reading.  Make sense.  Off course too rich of a m ixture could also be the cause, however, with the Bing carbs this is unl ikely.  My fuel flows per indicated MP are very close to the publis hed figures in the Rotax manual.  Just my two cents.

Erich Trombley
N28ET Classic Mono 914

Time: 11:12:29 AM PST US
From: "Simon Smith" <jodel@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Europa-List: 914 fuel flows

Surely, if the MP gauge is suspect the Airbox sensor/TCU would also have
to
be in error by the same amount?  I initially queried the figures b ecause
I
assumed (and we all know how dangerous that can be!) tha t the Rotax book
fuel flows ought to be accurate.

Simon

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-serve r@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-serv er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Erich
Trombley
Sent: 06 June 2006 18:07
Cc: kandshill2@sbcglobal.net
Subject: [N orton AntiSpam] Europa-List: 914 fuel flows


Ken,

Knowi ng your fuel system as I do, I concur the problem is not with the
fu el
flow sensor.

I would verify that your manifold pressure gag e is properly calibrated.
This would explain the excessive fuel flow per inches of mercury.

I believe for each fuel flow you have list ed the actual H.P. you are
producing is actually greater than that co rresponding to the M.P.
listed. 

Erich Trombley
N28E T Classic Mono 914



______________________ __________________________________________________
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________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:31:47 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 Fuel Flows --> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee Erich Trombley a crit : > > Simon, > > Can't say I agree with your assessment. The MP gage in the panel is > independent of the airbox pressure/TCU. As part of the installation > of a MP (electronic not analog) you are required to calibrate the > sensor. If the sensor is off by any amount from the true MP that the > engine is really producing then you will be incorrect in you > assumption of H.P. For example if the pilot has not correctly > calibrated the MP gage and it is reading 31" of MP, however, in > reality the engine is producing 34" then that would explain the > excessive fuel flow for a given MP reading. Make sense. Off course > too rich of a mixture could also be the cause, however, with the Bing > carbs this is unlikely. My fuel flows per indicated MP are very close > to the published figures in the Rotax manual. Just my two cents. > Hi all, You need to check the MP gauge and the tachometer. We checked ours during the flight tests, and our UMA tachometer read high by nearly 100 RPM at 5000 RPM. I mean, when it read 5000, the electronic calibration tacho read only about 4900 RPM. Now, suppose yours says 5000 while the engine is turning at 5100 ? If I recall correctly, prop power varies with the cube of RPM... FWIW, Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:08:15 PM PST US From: "Simon Smith" Subject: RE: Europa-List: 914 Fuel Flows Hi, As I understand it, at full throttle, the TCU will control the wastegate to give 39.9in HG. Rotax say that at 5800rpm and 39.9inHG the engine will burn 8.7us gph. To burn more than 8.7gph the MP or the rpm must be higher or there is an error in Rotax figures. If the MP gauge is suspect, then for a gauge reading of 39.9inHG the actual MP must be higher (to give a higher FF) but this is unlikely if the wastegate is being correctly controlled hence my comment thta the airbox sensor/TCU must also be in error. Of course, as others have pointed out, Rotax rpm gauges are notoriously inaccurate so could this be the culprit? Simon -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Erich Trombley Sent: 07 June 2006 16:52 Subject: Europa-List: 914 Fuel Flows Simon, Can't say I agree with your assessment. The MP gage in the panel is independent of the airbox pressure/TCU. As part of the installation of a MP (electronic not analog) you are required to calibrate the sensor. If the sensor is off by any amount from the true MP that the engine is really producing then you will be incorrect in you assumption of H.P. For example if the pilot has not correctly calibrated the MP gage and it is reading 31" of MP, however, in reality the engine is producing 34" then that would explain the excessive fuel flow for a given MP reading. Make sense. Off course too rich of a mixture could also be the cause, however, with the Bing carbs this is unlikely. My fuel flows per indicated MP are very close to the published figures in the Rotax manual. Just my two cents. Erich Trombley N28ET Classic Mono 914 Time: 11:12:29 AM PST US From: "Simon Smith" < jodel@nildram.co.uk> Subject: RE: Europa-List: 914 fuel flows Surely, if the MP gauge is suspect the Airbox sensor/TCU would also have to be in error by the same amount? I initially queried the figures because I assumed (and we all know how dangerous that can be!) that the Rotax book fuel flows ought to be accurate. Simon -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Erich Trombley Sent: 06 June 2006 18:07 Cc: kandshill2@sbcglobal.net Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Europa-List: 914 fuel flows Ken, Knowing your fuel system as I do, I concur the problem is not with the fuel flow sensor. I would verify that your manifold pressure gage is properly calibrated. This would explain the excessive fuel flow per inches of mercury. I believe for each fuel flow you have listed the actual H.P. you are producing is actually greater than that corresponding to the M.P. listed. Erich Trombley N28ET Classic Mono 914 ________________________________________________________________________ Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month! ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:22:26 PM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: Europa-List: colin noakes --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson Anyone know what's happened to Colin Noakes - well-known finisher & painter of Europas? His copy of EF48 was returned marked "gone away". Can anyone help us get in touch with him again, plaes? regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson (retiring) Europa Club Membership Secretary - email for info! | Europa 435 G-ROWI (750 hours building) PFA #16532 | e-mail website www.europaclub.org.uk ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:50:00 PM PST US From: "Bryan Allsop" Subject: Europa-List: Any UK Demo Volunteers Since the Today's Pilot article about my Mono XS, an enthusiastic gentleman called Shorland Hosking is keen to acquire a Europa Mono. He has asked me if it would be possible to have a ride in one before making the final commitment. He is a lightweight 6 ft 4 ins. The factory have told him that the XS can be made to fit him, but he would like to see how it handles. He lives in the Poole area, and can make time at any time convenient. I am sure that someone in the Poole/Popham area would enjoy showing his toy off to Shorland. Please contact him directly, and perhaps let me know as well. His Tel Number is 01 202 765716, e-mail shosking@doctors.org Cheers, Bryan ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:58 PM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: Europa-List: Re: Fuel Flows Hello Paul, You said:- > I suspect that the taper of the needle is wrong because at 24" the EGT's sit around 1600, but at 28" they seem to run in the low 1400's. Funny you should say that because just the other day I discovered the following. It may help to reinforce your suspicions. http://www.jabiru.net.au/news/technical/Carby%20tuning%20kitJSL002-1.pdf Regards Kingsley ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:34:01 PM PST US From: "DJGeldermann" Subject: Re: Europa-List: radiators, coolers and colors Thomas, The one I have sitting around for when I get that far is from "Pace Products," Part # 11654. Dan A-139 ----- Original Message ----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas Scherer To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 2:38 PM Subject: Europa-List: radiators, coolers and colors You might recall a question I raised several months ago in asking whether painting the water radiators of a Europa in white would affect their ability to cool. (black body radiation). To close the case, I can now report that the color white does not affect the cooling ability ~ it does make insects more visible though. I figure, the flying-by air molecule does not have sufficient time to check for color of the radiator (due to Europa speeds) when it expands thus cooling our cylinder heads (this applies to Rotax-driven Europas). I have successfully raised oil temperatures though by living in Southern California and installing those Xtra high compression pistons and will install a second oil cooler in sequence to the original cooler and was wondering whether anybody in Europa Universe does have a cooler oxydizing around in his workshop for a good new home ? Europa, the company, does not only stock them any more - they do not even remember where they originally got them from. be well, ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:42:40 PM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Europa-List: 914 and firewall --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" Hello, As above, I am trying to fit the cooling duct into the area between the footwells. (a) I fouled the centre area with mods to accomodate the Wilksch engine and (b) I used Graham Singleton's firewall to compensate. If you have employed (b) with the 914, could you confirm that the ducting is not interfered with, as the instructions are not specific regarding ducting vs. footwells as much as ducting vs. cowling (which is months from ready to apply). Please advise if you found the combination of the two, (b) and 914, compatible or at least manageable, as am loath to tackle the ducting if it's not going to fit properly.. Ferg Kyle Europa A064 914 Classic PS: Graham, if you're in there, this in no way impugns the design but does complicate the conception for the moment.......... ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:33 PM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: Re: Europa-List: 914 and firewall --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Parkin" > Please advise if you found the combination of the two, (b) and > 914, compatible or at least manageable, as am loath to tackle the ducting > if > it's not going to fit properly.. Fergus, I have Graham's firewall fitted with 914 in G-JULZ. I don't recall any major dramas during fitting. The result is excellent. I think Graham' firewall is a vast improvement on the original stainless steel one. regards, Mike