---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 07/12/06: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:30 AM - Trim tab movement (Keith Hickling) 2. 05:02 AM - LED Landing/Taxi lights (irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu) 3. 09:09 AM - Re: LED Landing/Taxi lights () 4. 10:02 AM - Re: Trim tab movement (Terry Seaver (terrys)) 5. 10:17 AM - Re: Trim tab movement (rparigoris) 6. 11:12 AM - OSHKOSH Attendees Contact Info (danbish) 7. 11:47 AM - Re: OSHKOSH Attendees Contact Info (JEFF ROBERTS) 8. 12:38 PM - Re: OSHKOSH Attendees Contact Info (Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com) 9. 03:16 PM - OT: Fake Worldpay emails targeting list members (Paul Sweeting) 10. 03:36 PM - Re: OSHKOSH Attendees Contact Info (Paul McAllister) 11. 04:24 PM - Re: LED Landing/Taxi lights (Duncan McFadyean) 12. 08:21 PM - Re: OSHKOSH Attendees Contact Info (Richard Schultz) 13. 08:50 PM - Re: LED Landing/Taxi lights (Andrew Sarangan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:30:15 AM PST US From: Keith Hickling Subject: Europa-List: Trim tab movement Hello all, I have just installed the trim servo / bellcrank and trim tab link rod. On checking the relative movement of trim tabs and tailplanes (starting with tabs level with tailplanes in neutral position and trim servo mid position), the movements are as specified in the manual with the tailplane moved trailing edge up 12 degrees (TP 12 degrees up, tab 27.6 degrees up or 15.6 relative to tailplane, exactly the specified amount). But moving the tailplane 4 degrees down, the tab moves 8.5 degrees down or 4.5 deg relative to the tailplane. This is less than the acceptable range of 4.8 to 6 degrees specified in the manual. I have the specified 6 degrees movement each way with the trim servo. The manual doesn't say what to do about this though. The manual says the tab should move relative to the tailplane with a ratio of 1.3 to 1. But looking at the design, it seems that the relative movement of the tabs must progressively reduce as the tailplane moves trailing edge down because the link rod is moving closer to the torque tube. Can anyone tell me whether this is a real problem, and if so how to correct it? Regards, Keith Hickling New Zealand Kit 613 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:08 AM PST US From: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu Subject: Europa-List: LED Landing/Taxi lights Hi Ron, I may be totally out to lunch on this, but I believe the standard 100W PAR bulb puts out roughly double the mcd output claimed for the LEDs. Also, high output LEDs generally have stringent cooling requirements emphasizing airflow close to the emitter dies. Excessive heat can cause the rated life of the LEDs to shorten even to far less than regular incandescent bulbs, sometimes dramatically shorter. It would be great if this LED system could be made bright and cool enough. It might be worth noting that LoPresti should be offering their HID lighting system with the new compact ballast at Oshkosk for $3-400. That is also a potentially nice solution, if one can design an appropriate mount! Ron, are you going to Osh? Ira N224XS Many notches in my soldering iron from LEDs ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:09:07 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Europa-List: LED Landing/Taxi lights --> Europa-List message posted by: Hello Ira Not going to OSH this year. Its true 5 watt LEDs need great cooling. The LEDs I am proposing are not drawing 700 mAs each, but 20 mAs each. Heat is not a problem with even continuous use. That said, many new 5 watt LEDs as offered by Best Hong Hong live on a fairly large star of aluminium (heat sink) and that aluminium can live on a piece of conductive metal. Its true that my idea of a removable landing/taxi light could possibly be accomplished with some 5 watt LEDs with a 10 degree reflector, could put in a tube in same area under cowl, and have some air pass through, larger bump, a lot more heat and a lot more amp draw. There is no question that a Beechcraft 100 watt, I think 5+1/2" landing light does a great job. A 3.5" Cessna 100 watt does a good job. A 3.5" Halogen Cessna 50 watt 3.5" does close to the net usable of the 3.5" 100 watt. 100 watt lamps, and 50s make heat, and lots of it, not great for composites. Where do you put one on a Europa? I am proposing a field of approx. 10 square inches of 20mA LEDs, ~240 10mm 12 degree 20mA, and between them ~60 5mm 20 degree 20mA. It will not light up a path wide enough or forward enough for landing C-130s at Gabreski, but probably adaquite for a Europa to do a low pass to see if there are any deer on Gabreskis runway, and see well enough for take off, landing and taxi. The arrangement does not need to be square, it can conform to shape of lower airscoop of cowl, narrow and long, will be adding bout thickness of a finger to the cowl. Again only take the increase drag when you need lights, and it will work on both short and long wings. I have LEDs at hangar, come on over one night and tell me what you think. The Net light output of the 10mm LEDs I want to use supposedly require only 1/5th the power in compared to Halogen lamps. Can put 4 or 5 in series when using ships power. Ron P. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:02:39 AM PST US From: "Terry Seaver (terrys)" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Trim tab movement We had a similar problem during our build. After staring at the geometry for a long while, we came to the conclusion that the height of the servo on the bulkhead contributes to size of the ratio between the tail planes and the anti-servo tabs. As I recall, we did some calculations on how much more anti-servo travel we needed and raised (or was it lowered?) the servo mounting location accordingly, giving the desired 1.3:1 ratio. While at it, we mounted the servo with anchor nuts on the back side of the bulkhead, and allen screws on the servo side to facilitate one handed removal of the servo mounting screws in the future, if we ever needed to change out the servo (once everything is closed up in that area). regards, Terry Seaver ________________________________ [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith Hickling Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 12:26 AM Hello all, I have just installed the trim servo / bellcrank and trim tab link rod. On checking the relative movement of trim tabs and tailplanes (starting with tabs level with tailplanes in neutral position and trim servo mid position), the movements are as specified in the manual with the tailplane moved trailing edge up 12 degrees (TP 12 degrees up, tab 27.6 degrees up or 15.6 relative to tailplane, exactly the specified amount). But moving the tailplane 4 degrees down, the tab moves 8.5 degrees down or 4.5 deg relative to the tailplane. This is less than the acceptable range of 4.8 to 6 degrees specified in the manual. I have the specified 6 degrees movement each way with the trim servo. The manual doesn't say what to do about this though. The manual says the tab should move relative to the tailplane with a ratio of 1.3 to 1. But looking at the design, it seems that the relative movement of the tabs must progressively reduce as the tailplane moves trailing edge down because the link rod is moving closer to the torque tube. Can anyone tell me whether this is a real problem, and if so how to correct it? Regards, Keith Hickling New Zealand Kit 613 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:17:07 AM PST US From: "rparigoris" Subject: Europa-List: RE: Trim tab movement --> Europa-List message posted by: "rparigoris" Hello Keith I had same problem with my XS Monowheel. http://www.europa-aircraft.biz/modifications.htm Read on Europas website, Annex E, lists tab/tailplane ratio min 1.2 and max 1.5 I just squeaked by. If you have XS and can squeak by with 1.2, I think you are good to go fly (if you have XS). To visualize what is going on (arc radius intersections) I made up a exact full scale model. In other words 2 pieces of welding rod with a eye bent in 1 end (coat hangar will work) and fooled with different geometry by light nailing to a piece of wood. Your options are are only to move 2 items, the front T-Bar connection point up and down, or forward and back, and the pin location on antiservo tab up and down and forward and back. Note the difference if you have antiservo drive pin forward or aft of hinge line. I cheated a bit, I set up antiservo drive pin location on the plane. I started with jig to set 1 side and held in place with Bondo then used "Eycrometer" to set other side. After a bit of fooling got things got things as good as they were going to get without having to move the servo bulkhead. I filled with redux/flox, and first layer of BID was with Redux/BID, then 2 subsequent Aeropoxy/BID layers. A side note, the torque tube is the stabilator spar. Push it aft on stabilator and it is pretty easy to close up space between the 2 pins .075". I was not thrilled with the fact that if you leave no space between the antiservo drive pins and the T-Bar bushings just bump the stabilators and the Bondo bond breaks right off! Granted once drive pin plates are bonded, it is hopeful stronger than Bondo, but someone pushing plane backwards by stabilator or in-flight bird strike or hangar accident immediate loads the pin plate/tab joint. I left .085" side to side clearance, and with simulated high factor of wigulation found that my T-Bar likes to live starboard. I put on a round nose plunger on the port T-Bar top to side load things, got it from McMaster Carr begins tension at 1.3 pounds, delrin nose, .125" plunger movement, 10-32 stainless steel, .75" long. I redux/floxed it to T-Bar, then did 2 wraps with thin glass and peel plied. Need a pretty hard trauma to break the bondo wit h .085 clearance. Ron Parigoris ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:12:06 AM PST US From: "danbish" Subject: Europa-List: OSHKOSH Attendees Contact Info --> Europa-List message posted by: "danbish" Hi Jim, Thanks for the info on the forum. I'm going to be at OSH starting Tuesday but unfortunately will be leaving Friday morning. Since this is my first time going, I want to see as many Europas as possible. And because they'll probably be parked all over hell's half acre, I was wondering if we could start a list of contact info of flyers and builders. So I'll start it off and those attending can respond to this tread. Add your name to the bottom of the list where shown; that way just one page need be printed to take with. [b:ff171ba6fd]Thanks.[/b:ff171ba6fd] Dan Bish - Builder - 520.360.9747 - Tues thru Thurs [b:ff171ba6fd]>>> Reply and stick your name an similar contact info here <<<[/b:ff171ba6fd] ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:47:58 AM PST US From: JEFF ROBERTS Subject: Re: Europa-List: OSHKOSH Attendees Contact Info --> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS Hi Dan... I'll jump in here and say I'll be there but my bird only has 25 hours on it so it won't. I'll start the list with my name cell phone if anyone else wants to jump in. Thanks, Jeff R A258 N128LJ Flying Off The 40 when time allows. > Dan Bish - Builder - 520.360.9747 - Tues thru Thurs Jeff Roberts - Flying N128LJ Cell Phone 615-406-8651 Monday -T- Wednesday > ---------------- > Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:38:27 PM PST US From: Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: OSHKOSH Attendees Contact Info A couple more Dave A061 JEFF ROBERTS Sent by: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com 07/12/2006 02:38 PM Please respond to europa-list To: europa-list@matronics.com cc: Subject: Re: Europa-List: OSHKOSH Attendees Contact Info --> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS Hi Dan... I'll jump in here and say I'll be there but my bird only has 25 hours on it so it won't. I'll start the list with my name cell phone if anyone else wants to jump in. Thanks, Jeff R A258 N128LJ Flying Off The 40 when time allows. > Dan Bish - Builder - 520.360.9747 - Tues thru Thurs Jeff Roberts - Flying N128LJ Cell Phone 615-406-8651 Monday -T- Wednesday Dave Miller C-FBZI, Chris Staines C-GFSY , cell 519-494-2741 Saturday and Sunday, driving in, staying at Marion College Jan & Fran Volcic also indicate they will be driving in for same dates > ---------------- > Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:16:55 PM PST US From: "Paul Sweeting" Subject: Europa-List: OT: Fake Worldpay emails targeting list members Hi Guys, I know this is obvious for some but it may catch one or two of you=85 There see to be a / some new fake Worldpay emails coming out to emails published on the list at the moment with an .exe attached, THIS IS A FAKE. The address mine was from is Dave Gollick [merchant@uk.worldpay.com] and it was about a charge back. Just thought I would warn people, as there is an exe attached=85. Delete the email, there is a warning on the Worldpay website. Cheers Paul. -- No virus found in this incoming message. 10/07/2006 -- 10/07/2006 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:19 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: Europa-List: OSHKOSH Attendees Contact Info I'll chime in. I am planing on Thursday, Friday and Saturday. I'll be flying if the weather is good driving if not. - Paul -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 2:06 PM To: europa-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: OSHKOSH Attendees Contact Info A couple more Dave A061 JEFF ROBERTS Sent by: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com 07/12/2006 02:38 PM Please respond to europa-list To: europa-list@matronics.com cc: Subject: Re: Europa-List: OSHKOSH Attendees Contact Info --> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS Hi Dan... I'll jump in here and say I'll be there but my bird only has 25 hours on it so it won't. I'll start the list with my name cell phone if anyone else wants to jump in. Thanks, Jeff R A258 N128LJ Flying Off The 40 when time allows. > Dan Bish - Builder - 520.360.9747 - Tues thru Thurs Jeff Roberts - Flying N128LJ Cell Phone 615-406-8651 Monday -T- Wednesday Dave Miller C-FBZI, Chris Staines C-GFSY , cell 519-494-2741 Saturday and Sunday, driving in, staying at Marion College Jan & Fran Volcic also indicate they will be driving in for same dates > ---------------- > Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:24:46 PM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: LED Landing/Taxi lights HID lights are more efficient than high-brightness LEDS. So, for a given power input, there is less waste heat to dispose. It depends how much light you want. It would take a lot of LEDS to be equivalent to a 35W HID bulb; and you'd still get less light and more heat. Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- From: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 12:55 PM Subject: Europa-List: LED Landing/Taxi lights Hi Ron, I may be totally out to lunch on this, but I believe the standard 100W PAR bulb puts out roughly double the mcd output claimed for the LEDs. Also, high output LEDs generally have stringent cooling requirements emphasizing airflow close to the emitter dies. Excessive heat can cause the rated life of the LEDs to shorten even to far less than regular incandescent bulbs, sometimes dramatically shorter. It would be great if this LED system could be made bright and cool enough. It might be worth noting that LoPresti should be offering their HID lighting system with the new compact ballast at Oshkosk for $3-400. That is also a potentially nice solution, if one can design an appropriate mount! Ron, are you going to Osh? Ira N224XS Many notches in my soldering iron from LEDs ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:23 PM PST US From: "Richard Schultz" Subject: RE: Europa-List: OSHKOSH Attendees Contact Info I will be attending from Sunday to Saturday and will be bring my Europa N262AE look for me on the flight line or the homebuilt camping area. Richard Schultz - N262AE Houston, Texas 713.703.2156 _____ [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 5:36 PM I'll chime in. I am planing on Thursday, Friday and Saturday. I'll be flying if the weather is good driving if not. - Paul -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 2:06 PM A couple more Dave A061 JEFF ROBERTS Sent by: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com 07/12/2006 02:38 PM Please respond to europa-list To: europa-list@matronics.com cc: Subject: Re: Europa-List: OSHKOSH Attendees Contact Info --> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS Hi Dan... I'll jump in here and say I'll be there but my bird only has 25 hours on it so it won't. I'll start the list with my name cell phone if anyone else wants to jump in. Thanks, Jeff R A258 N128LJ Flying Off The 40 when time allows. > Dan Bish - Builder - 520.360.9747 - Tues thru Thurs Jeff Roberts - Flying N128LJ Cell Phone 615-406-8651 Monday -T- Wednesday Dave Miller C-FBZI, Chris Staines C-GFSY , cell 519-494-2741 Saturday and Sunday, driving in, staying at Marion College Jan & Fran Volcic also indicate they will be driving in for same dates > ---------------- > Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:18 PM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: Re: Europa-List: LED Landing/Taxi lights --> Europa-List message posted by: Andrew Sarangan The heat argument is a little misleading. These LEDs don't generate much heat only because each unit consumes a mere 65mW. With 240 devices they will be dissipating a lot of heat. Lamps are measured by luminous efficiency. At 20-deg beam angle, 30000 mcd is equal to 2.8 lumens. So the luminous efficiency is 43 lumens/watt. For comparison, fluorescent lights are about 50 lumens/watt, and some HID lamps are 50-100 lumens/watt. In addition, with 240 devices packed in close proximity, the efficiency is unlikely to be the same as a solitary device. I would guess it would be around 25 lumens/watt, in which case you will be pretty close to the Luxeon V LEDs. --- rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: > > Hello Ira > > Not going to OSH this year. > > Its true 5 watt LEDs need great cooling. The LEDs I am proposing are > not > drawing 700 mAs each, but 20 mAs each. Heat is not a problem with > even > continuous use. That said, many new 5 watt LEDs as offered by Best > Hong > Hong live on a fairly large star of aluminium (heat sink) and that > aluminium can live on a piece of conductive metal. > > Its true that my idea of a removable landing/taxi light could > possibly be > accomplished with some 5 watt LEDs with a 10 degree reflector, could > put > in a tube in same area under cowl, and have some air pass through, > larger > bump, a lot more heat and a lot more amp draw. > > There is no question that a Beechcraft 100 watt, I think 5+1/2" > landing > light does a great job. A 3.5" Cessna 100 watt does a good job. A > 3.5" > Halogen Cessna 50 watt 3.5" does close to the net usable of the 3.5" > 100 > watt. > > 100 watt lamps, and 50s make heat, and lots of it, not great for > composites. Where do you put one on a Europa? > > I am proposing a field of approx. 10 square inches of 20mA LEDs, ~240 > 10mm > 12 degree 20mA, and between them ~60 5mm 20 degree 20mA. It will not > light > up a path wide enough or forward enough for landing C-130s at > Gabreski, > but probably adaquite for a Europa to do a low pass to see if there > are > any deer on Gabreskis runway, and see well enough for take off, > landing > and taxi. > > The arrangement does not need to be square, it can conform to shape > of > lower airscoop of cowl, narrow and long, will be adding bout > thickness of > a finger to the cowl. Again only take the increase drag when you need > lights, and it will work on both short and long wings. > > I have LEDs at hangar, come on over one night and tell me what you > think. > > The Net light output of the 10mm LEDs I want to use supposedly > require > only 1/5th the power in compared to Halogen lamps. Can put 4 or 5 in > series when using ships power. > > > Ron P. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Andrew Sarangan http://www.sarangan.org