---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 07/27/06: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:28 AM - Re: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! (BEBERRY@aol.com) 2. 12:44 AM - Re: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! (ivor.phillips) 3. 01:31 AM - Re: wiring (Paul Stewart) 4. 02:30 AM - Re: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! (David Joyce) 5. 02:30 AM - Re : wiring (Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr) 6. 02:30 AM - Re: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! (David Joyce) 7. 02:57 AM - Re: Re : wiring (nigel charles) 8. 03:18 AM - Re: Re : wiring (BEBERRY@aol.com) 9. 04:04 AM - Re : Re: Re : wiring (Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr) 10. 05:57 AM - Re: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! (Garry) 11. 07:54 AM - Re : Re: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! (Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr) 12. 10:49 AM - Re : wiring () 13. 11:05 AM - Re: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! () 14. 11:23 AM - Re: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! () 15. 12:16 PM - Re: DOTH (fly-in) (A B Milne) 16. 01:36 PM - Re: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! (Mike Parkin) 17. 02:02 PM - Re: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! (Richard Iddon) 18. 02:13 PM - Re: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! (BEBERRY@aol.com) 19. 02:13 PM - Re: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! (BEBERRY@aol.com) 20. 03:22 PM - Re: wiring (Duncan McFadyean) 21. 03:22 PM - Re: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! (Richard Iddon) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:28:33 AM PST US From: BEBERRY@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! In a message dated 27/07/2006 00:30:31 GMT Daylight Time, garrys@tampabay.rr.com writes: Blaster is a product sold in the US in all of the auto parts stores Blaster is a penetrating oil similar or even identical, I believe , to WD40 as commonly used everywhere in u.k. It works for me. Patrick ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:44:21 AM PST US From: "ivor.phillips" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! --> Europa-List message posted by: "ivor.phillips" A good Carburetor cleaner STP/Wynns/Holts will do the trick Ivor David, Blaster is a product sold in the US in all of the auto parts stores. It comes in an aerosol spray can and is used to unstick any metal parts that have rusted together or otherwise become "as one". Some might call it a "penetrant", and I can't tell you the ingredients because they're not listed on the side of the can. Don't bother with "mouse milk". I've tried it and it doesn't work. The only thing I've found that works reliably to unstick my wastegate is Blaster. Best wishes, Garry Stout ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 11:54 AM > --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" > > > Garry, What's Blaster? Could be my wastegate could do with something of > the > sort! > Regards, David Joyce > ----- Original Message ----- > Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 12:20 PM > > > Ray, > > With 99% probability your wastegate is stuck. Take your cowlings off and > observe the action of the lever arm on the wastegate when you turn on your > master switch. The lever should go through a full cycle of full on, to > full > off. I'm guessing you'll see the TCU cable moving, but not the lever arm > on > the wastegate. Spray some "Blaster" all over the wastegate arm and let it > soak in. This should free up the stuck lever arm. > > Garry Stout > 914, 450 hours > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ray Stevenson > To: 'europa-list@matronics.com' > Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 3:56 AM > Subject: Europa-List: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! > > > We have a Europa 914 turbo and are experiencing intermittent high boosts. > So far we have pointed the finger at the wastegate failing to open and > close > properly. Could this be the only way this problem could occur? We have > checked that the servo motor is functioning correctly and also checked all > the wiring joints to it. Has anyone else had similar problems? If so we > would welcome any suggestions. - Ray > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > Doctors.net.uk education: totally independent, totally free. > > http://www.doctors.net.uk/education > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:31:22 AM PST US From: Paul Stewart Subject: Re: Europa-List: wiring --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Stewart Thanks all for the discussion. As a follow up. What sort of switch have folk used to switch the alternator/regulator output? Paul ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:30:08 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" Thanks for that. David ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 8:24 AM > > In a message dated 27/07/2006 00:30:31 GMT Daylight Time, > garrys@tampabay.rr.com writes: > > Blaster is a product sold in the US in all of the auto parts stores > > > Blaster is a penetrating oil similar or even identical, I believe , to WD40 > as commonly used everywhere in u.k. It works for me. > > Patrick > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Doctors.net.uk education: totally independent, totally free. > http://www.doctors.net.uk/education > ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:30:08 AM PST US From: Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr Subject: Re : Europa-List: wiring --> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr Hi Ron and all, > 2) I don't absolute agree with Gilles, if wired as per Europa, if > for any > reason battery is not putting out, 1 pump will run off of generator > (provided it is excited, which would have happened upon start up) That's the main point concerning the circuit : you have redundancy PROVIDED the regulator is working. I played the "What if game" before designing the pump circuit, and made some investigations. The Rotax regulator needs a definite voltage to continue providing power. Disconnect it, or have it fail, or run your battery down, and you're left with very few option to keep your engine running. Of course, things are different if you have an additional power source such as a second alternator. I paid much attention to the number of switches : except for the E-bus switch (which is not mandatory), there is no special switch to operate the airplane : the behaviour is the same as in any Lyco-Conti aircraft. Turn off the Master switch, do anything, the engine keeps running, unless you turn off the ignition keyswitch. No risk of inadvertently switching of the main pump. By the way, the airplane runs without any problem with a 7 Ah only Hawker battery. Regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:30:09 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" Thanks, Ivor. David ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 8:43 AM > --> Europa-List message posted by: "ivor.phillips" > > A good Carburetor cleaner STP/Wynns/Holts will do the trick > > Ivor > > > David, > > Blaster is a product sold in the US in all of the auto parts stores. It > comes in an aerosol spray can and is used to unstick any metal parts that > have rusted together or otherwise become "as one". Some might call it a > "penetrant", and I can't tell you the ingredients because they're not listed > > on the side of the can. Don't bother with "mouse milk". I've tried it and > it doesn't work. The only thing I've found that works reliably to unstick > my wastegate is Blaster. > > Best wishes, > > Garry Stout > > ----- Original Message ----- > Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 11:54 AM > > > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" > > > > > > Garry, What's Blaster? Could be my wastegate could do with something of > > the > > sort! > > Regards, David Joyce > > ----- Original Message ----- > > Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 12:20 PM > > > > > > Ray, > > > > With 99% probability your wastegate is stuck. Take your cowlings off and > > observe the action of the lever arm on the wastegate when you turn on your > > master switch. The lever should go through a full cycle of full on, to > > full > > off. I'm guessing you'll see the TCU cable moving, but not the lever arm > > on > > the wastegate. Spray some "Blaster" all over the wastegate arm and let it > > soak in. This should free up the stuck lever arm. > > > > Garry Stout > > 914, 450 hours > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Ray Stevenson > > To: 'europa-list@matronics.com' > > Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 3:56 AM > > Subject: Europa-List: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! > > > > > > We have a Europa 914 turbo and are experiencing intermittent high boosts. > > So far we have pointed the finger at the wastegate failing to open and > > close > > properly. Could this be the only way this problem could occur? We have > > checked that the servo motor is functioning correctly and also checked all > > the wiring joints to it. Has anyone else had similar problems? If so we > > would welcome any suggestions. - Ray > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Doctors.net.uk education: totally independent, totally free. > > > > http://www.doctors.net.uk/education > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Doctors.net.uk education: totally independent, totally free. > http://www.doctors.net.uk/education > _______________________________________________________________________ > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:57:16 AM PST US From: "nigel charles" Subject: RE: Re : Europa-List: wiring --> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" >The Rotax regulator needs a definite voltage to continue providing power. Disconnect it, or have it fail, or run your battery down, and you're left with very few option to keep your engine running.< Not true. If you disconnect the battery with the engine running the generator continues to supply the electrical system until the revs drop to idle. Even then, restoring the revs above idle results in the generator picking up the load. Nigel Charles ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:18:33 AM PST US From: BEBERRY@aol.com Subject: Re: Re : Europa-List: wiring >The Rotax regulator needs a definite voltage to continue providing power. Disconnect it, or have it fail, or run your battery down, and you're left with very few option to keep your engine running.< Not true. If you disconnect the battery with the engine running the generator continues to supply the electrical system until the revs drop to idle. Even then, restoring the revs above idle results in the generator picking up the load. Nigel Charles True Nigel but I find I need to get the rpm back over about 2500 to get the voltage reg to cut in again once it has dropped out at low rpm (which it does not always do.) Constant problems of this nature have caused some anxieties, but there is no fear that it will result in an engine failure. Patrick ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:29 AM PST US From: Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr Subject: Re : RE: Re : Europa-List: wiring --> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr ----- Message d'origine ----- De: nigel charles Objet: RE: Re : Europa-List: wiring > --> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" > > > >The Rotax regulator needs a definite voltage to continue providing > power. Disconnect it, or have it fail, or run your battery down, and > you're left with very few option to keep your engine running.< > > Not true. If you disconnect the battery with the engine running the > generator continues to supply the electrical system until the revs > dropto idle. Even then, restoring the revs above idle results in the > generator picking up the load. > Hi Nigel, We run the regulator that came with our 914 on the bench, and once disconnected, it won't come to life if the battery is down or off line, regardless of the RPM. This lead to a series of scenarii where we could be left with no power. Of course it is possible that not all Rotax regulators are the same internally, or you found a particular mode we failed to explore in our experiments. I would be interested in more experimental details on your findings. I could publish them in addition to our measurements. Best regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:57:17 AM PST US From: "Garry" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! Blaster is "similar", but not the same. I've tried WD40 with no results. Garry Stout ----- Original Message ----- From: BEBERRY@aol.com To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 3:24 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! In a message dated 27/07/2006 00:30:31 GMT Daylight Time, garrys@tampabay.rr.com writes: Blaster is a product sold in the US in all of the auto parts stores Blaster is a penetrating oil similar or even identical, I believe , to WD40 as commonly used everywhere in u.k. It works for me. Patrick ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:55 AM PST US From: Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr Subject: Re : Re: Europa-List: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! > Blaster is "similar", but not the same. I've tried WD40 with no > results. Hi all, We had great success with high temperature antiseize compound on the wastegate pivot before starting the engine, and then at the annual. We did not experience any sticking. We check freeness of movement every time the cowling is removed. Some cases I know of occured to builders who failed to regularly inspect their wastegate. Some of them installed sheet metal baffles that prevented them to access to the wastegate on a regular basis. In my opinion, provision should be made to readily check the wastegate. I'm also told that using avgas could contribute to wastegate sticking due to lead buildup. In case of problem, squirting some WD40 or similar might help freeing the wastegate, but are we sure that the original cause of binding would be eliminated ? And will the residue resist the really high temperatures without producing some additional carbon deposit ? Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:49:38 AM PST US From: Subject: Re : Europa-List: wiring --> Europa-List message posted by: Hello Gilles One more time: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 2) I don't absolute agree with Gilles, if wired as per Europa, if for any reason battery is not putting out, 1 pump will run off of generator (provided it is excited, which would have happened upon start up) That's the main point concerning the circuit : you have redundancy PROVIDED the regulator is working. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If using 1 battery and Rotax generator, if both pumps are wired to main bus, both would be dead if: Master switch failed or was turned off Battery isolator failed 30 amp slow blow fuse in series with main bus feed opened If wired as per Europa, primary will run as long as generator and regulator is functioning. Take a look at Europa 914 schematic so we are on same page: http://www.europa-aircraft.biz/pdfs/buildersmanuals/CBM%20-%2025%20-%20ELECTRICAL%20SYSTEM.pdf On page #11 Unless B+ was shorted at regulator, by closing alternator output switch power to primary pump will be provided from the battery should the regulator fail, or OVP take it off line. In other words you can run both pumps off battery with an added bonus of being able to run 1 pump exclusive off generator. Ron P. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:46 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Europa-List: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! --> Europa-List message posted by: For what it is worth, I sprayed the following on a piece of aluminium heated by my blowtorch and cooked it to see if there was any residue left behind. First I tried Kano Labs Kroil and Mouse Milk, nothing left behind. Tried Kano Labs Sili-Kroil, just Kroil with Silicon, nothing. Tried Blaster, that is thicker, feels like it has an oil in it and I thought would leave behind a residue, nothing. I cooked at least 6 spraying of Blaster. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:23:38 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Europa-List: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! --> Europa-List message posted by: Read on what Rotax has to say: SI-914-003 Checking And Lubrication Of The Wastegate 6/1999 167 Under certain conditions, when operating using leaded fuels (AVGAS), lead deposits may form on the turbo wastegate pivot shaft. These lead deposits may cause the wastegate to stick and prevent proper turbocharger operation. Go here: http://www.rotax-owner.com/sdocs.htm Click "By Engine Model" Select 914UL Search Look under service instructions and read SI-914-003 In essence it says to use a penetrant, but if that does not work, to open up turbo and go after the shaft from the inside. good luck not breaking any hardware. All would be well advised to read and print "ALL" Alert Service Bulletins, Service Bulletins, Service Instructions and Service Letters that apply to you and your engine. Then update and make notes in your manuals as you comply. Of course you have all manuals?? If not go to: http://www.kodiakbs.com/ Click Tech Info Click Maintenance Manual You also want a install manual and http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com/aircraft/aircraft.nsf/index?Openpage Click Documentation Get a Install Manual and Operators Manual Monitoring Program Parts Catalogue Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:16:51 PM PST US From: A B Milne Subject: Re: Europa-List: DOTH (fly-in) --> Europa-List message posted by: A B Milne Count me in for Sunday subject to the weather. Alasdair Milne G CBYN Quoting Duncan McFadyean : > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" > > > > Anyone intending doing the Branscombe fly-in this Sunday? > Details at > http://www.sky4aviation.co.uk/sky4/index.html > or > "Branscombe Air Day Sunday 30th July.Visitors by air - all arrivals PPR for > both Saturday (Aeroncaphiles!!) and Sunday.- telephone 01297 680259 before > departure. > Exeter Approach on 128.975 > Branscombe Radio 131.15 > Latest arrival time - 1230 hours local > Departures after air display 1645 hours" > > > Wx not looking co-operative. > > Duncan McF > do not archive > > ----- Original Message ----- > Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 9:42 AM > > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: "gtblu" >> >> Nigel. >> Do you have any info on the sprag clutch circlip that needs replacing at >> 1200 hours. I have just had one break at 600 hours and go through the engine >> which is devastating, far worse than the sprag clutch just wearing out. >> >> Regards >> Gtblu >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:36:04 PM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! A more active penetrating oil which is available in the UK si 'PLUS GAS'. Used in many workshops this is the best penetrating oil I have ever come across. It is brilliant for freeing seized/rusted nuts and bolts. Squirt the offending item with Plus Gas leave overnight, if it does not shift then it probably never will. regards, Mike. Do not archive. ----- Original Message ----- From: Garry To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 1:53 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! Blaster is "similar", but not the same. I've tried WD40 with no results. Garry Stout ----- Original Message ----- From: BEBERRY@aol.com To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 3:24 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! In a message dated 27/07/2006 00:30:31 GMT Daylight Time, garrys@tampabay.rr.com writes: Blaster is a product sold in the US in all of the auto parts stores Blaster is a penetrating oil similar or even identical, I believe , to WD40 as commonly used everywhere in u.k. It works for me. Patrick ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- No virus found in this incoming message. 27/07/2006 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:02:05 PM PST US From: "Richard Iddon" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! A product I have used with great success on my boat is Boeshield T9 It's like WD40 with added wax which is left behind after the carrier has evaporated. Fantastic for lubricating and rust prevention. It was developed by Boeing for aeroplanes but I haven't managed to find any close to home. Still looking. Richard Iddon G-RIXS -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Parkin Sent: 27 July 2006 21:32 A more active penetrating oil which is available in the UK si 'PLUS GAS'. Used in many workshops this is the best penetrating oil I have ever come across. It is brilliant for freeing seized/rusted nuts and bolts. Squirt the offending item with Plus Gas leave overnight, if it does not shift then it probably never will. regards, Mike. Do not archive. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 1:53 PM Blaster is "similar", but not the same. I've tried WD40 with no results. Garry Stout ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 3:24 AM In a message dated 27/07/2006 00:30:31 GMT Daylight Time, garrys@tampabay.rr.com writes: Blaster is a product sold in the US in all of the auto parts stores Blaster is a penetrating oil similar or even identical, I believe , to WD40 as commonly used everywhere in u.k. It works for me. Patrick _____ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Date: 27/07/2006 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:13:48 PM PST US From: BEBERRY@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! In a message dated 27/07/2006 21:37:48 GMT Daylight Time, mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com writes: A more active penetrating oil which is available in the UK si 'PLUS GAS'. Used in many workshops this is the best penetrating oil I have ever come across. It is brilliant for freeing seized/rusted nuts and bolts. Squirt the offending item with Plus Gas leave overnight, if it does not shift then it probably never will. regards, Mike. Agreed. Despite my previous note abut WD40, I have used plus gas on occasion and it is great. Patrick ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:13:49 PM PST US From: BEBERRY@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! In a message dated 27/07/2006 22:03:27 GMT Daylight Time, riddon@sent.com writes: A product I have used with great success on my boat is Boeshield T9 It =99s like WD40 with added wax which is left behind after the carrier has evaporated. Fantastic for lubricating and rust prevention. It was develope d by Boeing for aeroplanes but I haven=99t managed to find any close to home. Sti ll looking. That sounds good Richard. Let us know When you find a source. Patrick ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:22:00 PM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: wiring --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" Honeywell locking toggle (i.e. the type where the toggle has to be pulled out against a spring before moving). Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 9:09 AM > --> Europa-List message posted by: Paul Stewart > > Thanks all for the discussion. > > As a follow up. What sort of switch have folk used to switch the > alternator/regulator output? > > Paul > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:22:00 PM PST US From: "Richard Iddon" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Turbo problems 914 - Help!! Tech data and the nearest supplier I can find to the UK is Boeshield Europe. Web site at http://www.boeshield.nl/engels/boeshieldnlframe.htm Richard. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BEBERRY@aol.com Sent: 27 July 2006 22:13 In a message dated 27/07/2006 22:03:27 GMT Daylight Time, riddon@sent.com writes: A product I have used with great success on my boat is Boeshield T9 It's like WD40 with added wax which is left behind after the carrier has evaporated. Fantastic for lubricating and rust prevention. It was developed by Boeing for aeroplanes but I haven't managed to find any close to home. Still looking. That sounds good Richard. Let us know When you find a source. Patrick