---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 07/28/06: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:59 AM - Re : wiring (Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr) 2. 05:31 AM - Cliff Shaw (Fergus Kyle) 3. 06:13 AM - How to get updated Rotax Manuals? () 4. 07:59 AM - Europa Oshkosh Accident (Bob Jacobsen) 5. 09:08 AM - Airspeed awareness in the circuit (Mark Burton) 6. 09:50 AM - Cross controlling ailerons and rudder in the landing approach (GLENN CROWDER) 7. 10:02 AM - Re: Europa Oshkosh Accident (JEFF ROBERTS) 8. 10:46 AM - Re: Cross controlling ailerons and rudder in the landing approach (Fred Klein) 9. 11:04 AM - Re: Cross controlling ailerons and rudder in the landing approach (GLENN CROWDER) 10. 11:25 AM - Re: Airspeed awareness in the circuit (Carl Pattinson) 11. 02:42 PM - Re: Airspeed awareness in the circuit (Mark Burton) 12. 03:14 PM - Re: Europa Oshkosh Accident (Andrew Sarangan) 13. 03:22 PM - Re: Europa Oshkosh Accident (JEFF ROBERTS) 14. 03:22 PM - Re: Airspeed awareness in the circuit & cross controlling (rlborger) 15. 03:53 PM - Re: Airspeed awareness in the circuit (R.C.Harrison) 16. 05:38 PM - Re: Airspeed awareness in the circuit (europa flugzeug fabrik) 17. 10:51 PM - Re: Airspeed awareness in the circuit (Mike Parkin) 18. 11:20 PM - Taming the Stall. (Mike Parkin) 19. 11:45 PM - Re: Europa Oshkosh Accident (Mark Burton) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:59:07 AM PST US From: Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr Subject: Re : Europa-List: wiring --> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr Hi Ron and all, > If wired as per Europa, primary will run as long as generator and > regulator is functioning. > Failure of the regulator is not an unlikely event. That's why I considered this case when designing the circuit. My purpose was to prevent a regulator failure from becoming an engine emergency. > Take a look at Europa 914 schematic so we are on same page: > http://www.europa-aircraft.biz/pdfs/buildersmanuals/CBM%20- > %2025%20-%20ELECTRICAL%20SYSTEM.pdf > On page #11 > > Unless B+ was shorted at regulator, by closing alternator output > switchpower to primary pump will be provided from the battery > should the > regulator fail, or OVP take it off line. > How is your OVP wired ? If it is of the crowbar type, doesn't it disconnect the offending generator/regulator unit from the ship's circuit ? How is the "OV regulator failure" case managed ? Of course, it is up to each builder to chose the degree of redundancy he is willing to build into his systems. Best regards, Gilles htttp://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:31:35 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Europa-List: Cliff Shaw --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" It is never easy to react to the loss of one of our group. As with you, I was saddened to hear of the accident and thought of the loss of a contributor. So I went to my records and discovered fifteen emails from Cliff to me - all of which were enterprising and innovative topics just to me. There are of course hundreds more directed to us all from the net. Cheers, Cliff and Betty, and thanks. Ferg Kyle Europa A064 914 Classic ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:19 AM PST US From: Subject: Europa-List: How to get updated Rotax Manuals? --> Europa-List message posted by: Figure I should clog up Archives with an easy search on how to get up to date rotax manuals. Here is a repost I made to Rotax group. Ron Parigoris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hello David "So how do I get an updated manual?" Ain't as easy as you think. Get proper mindset and ain't so bad. First you need to get latest manuals offered by Rotax or update the manuals you have to reflect the latest. You can download them, info in Post I made to Europa Group below on how to do so. These manuals are in no way up to date or complete. You need to massage into the latest manuals "ALL" Alert Service Bulletins, Service Bulletins, Service Instructions and Service Letters that pertain to you. You can sign up on line so new information will be E-Mailed to you from sign up date on. Initial I went back to 2000 when I was compiling information for my 914UL, then to be sure I went back further, missed some important stuff. Gotta go back to the beginning, there are cases where a newer piece mandates you follow something prior, or just plain old important stand alone stuff back there. I know that this is bad news to some, but instead of complaining, put effort into educating yourself and having the info you need. Set aside a night or 2 a week. My Rotax 4 inch binder has the front and rear covers parallel. I wish I could order up to date manuals by simply giving my engine serial number, and what shows up is current to that date, and only need to update from that date on. I know of no one who does this. To make sure the covers of your book is parallel too, add: http://www.greenskyadventures.com/engineservice/TechTips/912Ignition/912IgnDiagrahm.htm http://www.rotaxservice.com/rotax_tips/rotax_troubleshooting.htm Be sure to not only to check out troubleshooting, but look at PPT for causes of vibration Another way to get manuals and info: http://www.rotec.com/sdocintro.htm Look for info in California Power Systems paid for Catalog, think I may have some stuff in there from Leading Edge Airfoils. Ron Parigoris ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Posted to Europa Newsgroup, just enter engine you have if not a 914UL: Read on what Rotax has to say: SI-914-003 Checking And Lubrication Of The Wastegate 6/1999 167 Under certain conditions, when operating using leaded fuels (AVGAS), lead deposits may form on the turbo wastegate pivot shaft. These lead deposits may cause the wastegate to stick and prevent proper turbocharger operation. Go here: http://www.rotax-owner.com/sdocs.htm Click "By Engine Model" Select 914UL Search Look under service instructions and read SI-914-003 In essence it says to use a penetrant, but if that does not work, to open up turbo and go after the shaft from the inside. good luck not breaking any hardware. All would be well advised to read and print "ALL" Alert Service Bulletins, Service Bulletins, Service Instructions and Service Letters that apply to you and your engine. Then update and make notes in your manuals as you comply. Of course you have all manuals?? If not go to: http://www.kodiakbs.com/ Click Tech Info Click Maintenance Manual http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com/aircraft/aircraft.nsf/index?Openpage Click Documentation Get a Install Manual and Operators Manual Monitoring Program Parts Catalog ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:59:13 AM PST US From: "Bob Jacobsen" Subject: Europa-List: Europa Oshkosh Accident --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bob Jacobsen" I have additional information on Cliff & Betty's Oshkosh accident. First is the NTSB's preliminay report - this can also be found on the NTSB website. Also the NTSB has spoken with Mike and a pilot we know who was an eyewitness. Additionally I test flew Cliff's plane for him, knew him well and knew what kind of pilot he was. My hope is this information will prevent another accident of this type. First the NTSB Report: NTSB Identification: CHI06FA196 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation Accident occurred Sunday, July 23, 2006 in Oshkosh, WI Aircraft: Shaw Europa XS, registration: N229WC Injuries: 2 Fatal. This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. On July 23, 2006, at 0845 central dylight time, a Shaw Europa XS, N229WC, collided with the runway following a loss of control while on final approach to runway 27 (6,178 feet by 150 feet, dry asphalt) at the Wittman Regional Airport (OSH), Oshkosh, Wisconsin. The private pilot and passenger were fatally injured. The airplane was destroyed. The 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 personal flight was operating in visual meteorological conditions without a flight plan. The flight originated from the Portage Municipal Airport (C47), Portage, Wisconsin, at approximately 0815. The airplane was landing at OSH for the EAA AirVenture fly-in. Witness reported seeing the airplane "low and slow" on downwind to runway 27. One witness, a certified flight instructor, stated the airplane remained slow as it overshot final approach. The witnesses reported seeing the airplane stall on final approach. The airplane impacted the runway on the displaced threshold. Now information about Cliff's plane. I test flew the plane for the first time on 6/29/03 - Flight lasted about a half hour. I did some slow flight to get airspeed readings but did not fully stall the airplane. I felt that it would drop a wing - so I was very careful to keep everything centered. About a week later John Hurst was flying the plane with Cliff to try to iron out an engine problem. They stalled the plane and it flipped inverted instantly. We added some stall strips and got it's behavior a bit better - but it was a always a nasty stalling airplane. final. I am sure he pulled a hard turn to final while slow. I can also guess he was a bit cross controlled and the plane stalled. snapped inverted and went into a spin. I am told the plane impacted nose down and inverted. I am also told it had spun "a couple of times". The Europa is a great design however it does have a very powerful and sensitive elevator (thats why is so fun). Additionally the rudder is powerful - but must be used correctly. Cross controlling and accelerated stalling any airplane is a problem, the Europa is even more so than some and probably easier to do with the powerful controls. Here is waht the FAA pilots flying handbook says about this: According to the FAA publication Airplane Flying Handbook, section on accelerated stalls and cross control stalls, ...Stalls which result from abrupt maneuvers tend to be more rapid, or severe, than the unaccelerated stalls, and because they occur at higher-than-normal airspeeds, they may be unexpected by an inexperienced pilot. Failure to take immediate steps toward recovery when an accelerated stall occurs may result in a complete loss of flight control, notably, power-on spins... a cross control stall...is most apt to occur during a poorly planned and executed base-to-final approach turn...the airplane often stalls with little warning. The nose may pitch down, the inside wing may suddenly drop and the airplane may continue to roll to an inverted position...It is imperative that this type of stall not occur during an actual approach to a landing since recovery may be impossible prior to ground contact due to the low altitude...." Bob Jacobsen ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:08:54 AM PST US From: "Mark Burton" Subject: Europa-List: Airspeed awareness in the circuit --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mark Burton" I know some folks may well think that I am trying to profit from the recent tragic accident at Oshkosh but my motivation for writing this message is not to make money out of that incident but rather to reduce the chance of a similar accident occuring in the future. As soon as I heard about that accident, it occurred to me that if Cliff's Europa had been fitted with one of my talking ASI units, the accident may have been avoided. Reading the preliminary accident report reinforces that view. I'm not saying it would definitely have turned out differently, but it may have. One of the main reasons for designing the talking ASI was to make the pilot very aware of the airspeed during the later part of the circuit without requiring them to have their eyes in the cockpit. The airspeed is "pushed" at the pilot through their headset. If I was financially well off, I would give a talking ASI to anyone who wanted one because I believe it makes a real contribution to flight safety. I can't afford to do that but if you are interested in obtaining one, please visit www.smartavionics.com. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50337#50337 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:50:49 AM PST US From: "GLENN CROWDER" Subject: Europa-List: Cross controlling ailerons and rudder in the landing approach --> Europa-List message posted by: "GLENN CROWDER" Hey Bob! I am shocked and saddened by Cliff and Bettys accident at Oshkosh. This should not have happened to a pair who had been so helpful and friendly to others in the flying community. It seems that there is some misunderstanding how a "cross controlled" situation can occur. The classic cross controlled scenario is when the pilot overshoots the base to final turn being blown downwind using heavy ailerons and rudder to correct the overshoot up to the point the plane is headed back to the runway and then the pilot uses rapid opposite aileron to level the wings. The downgoing aileron on the upwind side is asked to generate a lot more lift when the airspeed is very slow, causing the upwind wing to stall precipitating a low altitude spin. I was taught on the Europa to never use the bottom rudder on the turn from base to final and just make the turn with ailerons. If you hit the bottom rudder, you are slowing the inside wing more than the outside wing. It is permissible to use the top rudder in the turn as this accelerates the inside wing (which is what you do in a slip). So one can cause a stall by using bottom rudder and not be cross controlled. I was taught that as long as you use top rudder only (or no rudder at all) on the base to final turn, the inside wing cannot stall first. Once lined up on final, I then start using the rudder to maintain directional allignment with the runway. If I can't make the turn just using the ailerons, I have screwed up and will do a go around! The whole idea is that as long as the aircraft stays coordinated, the wing will only stall straight ahead, still not a good thing, but possibly recoverable where a spin entry is not. Glenn >From: "Bob Jacobsen" >To: europa-list@matronics.com >Subject: Europa-List: Europa Oshkosh Accident >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 07:55:00 -0700 > >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Bob Jacobsen" > > >I have additional information on Cliff & Betty's Oshkosh accident. First >is the NTSB's preliminay report - this can also be found on the NTSB >website. > >Also the NTSB has spoken with Mike and a pilot we know who was an >eyewitness. Additionally I test flew Cliff's plane for him, knew him well >and knew what kind of pilot he was. My hope is this information will >prevent another accident of this type. > >First the NTSB Report: > >NTSB Identification: CHI06FA196 >14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation >Accident occurred Sunday, July 23, 2006 in Oshkosh, WI >Aircraft: Shaw Europa XS, registration: N229WC >Injuries: 2 Fatal. > >This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. >Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been >completed. > >On July 23, 2006, at 0845 central dylight time, a Shaw Europa XS, N229WC, >collided with the runway following a loss of control while on final >approach to runway 27 (6,178 feet by 150 feet, dry asphalt) at the Wittman >Regional Airport (OSH), Oshkosh, Wisconsin. The private pilot and passenger >were fatally injured. The airplane was destroyed. The 14 Code of Federal >Regulations Part 91 personal flight was operating in visual meteorological >conditions without a flight plan. The flight originated from the Portage >Municipal Airport (C47), Portage, Wisconsin, at approximately 0815. > >The airplane was landing at OSH for the EAA AirVenture fly-in. Witness >reported seeing the airplane "low and slow" on downwind to runway 27. One >witness, a certified flight instructor, stated the airplane remained slow >as it overshot final approach. The witnesses reported seeing the airplane >stall on final approach. The airplane impacted the runway on the displaced >threshold. > >Now information about Cliff's plane. > >I test flew the plane for the first time on 6/29/03 - Flight lasted about a >half hour. I did some slow flight to get airspeed readings but did not >fully stall the airplane. I felt that it would drop a wing - so I was very >careful to keep everything centered. About a week later John Hurst was >flying the plane with Cliff to try to iron out an engine problem. They >stalled the plane and it flipped inverted instantly. We added some stall >strips and got it's behavior a bit better - but it was a always a nasty >stalling airplane. > >final. I am sure he pulled a hard turn to final while slow. I can also >guess he was a bit cross controlled and the plane stalled. snapped inverted >and went into a spin. I am told the plane impacted nose down and inverted. > I am also told it had spun "a couple of times". > >The Europa is a great design however it does have a very powerful and >sensitive elevator (thats why is so fun). Additionally the rudder is >powerful - but must be used correctly. Cross controlling and accelerated >stalling any airplane is a problem, the Europa is even more so than some >and probably easier to do with the powerful controls. > > >Here is waht the FAA pilots flying handbook says about this: > >According to the FAA publication Airplane Flying Handbook, section on >accelerated stalls and cross control stalls, ...Stalls which result from >abrupt maneuvers tend to be more rapid, or severe, than the unaccelerated >stalls, and because they occur at higher-than-normal airspeeds, they may be >unexpected by an inexperienced pilot. Failure to take immediate steps >toward recovery when an accelerated stall occurs may result in a complete >loss of flight control, notably, power-on spins... a cross control >stall...is most apt to occur during a poorly planned and executed >base-to-final approach turn...the airplane often stalls with little >warning. The nose may pitch down, the inside wing may suddenly drop and the >airplane may continue to roll to an inverted position...It is imperative >that this type of stall not occur during an actual approach to a landing >since recovery may be impossible prior to ground contact due to the low >altitude...." > > >Bob Jacobsen > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >http://wiki.matronics.com > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:02:18 AM PST US From: JEFF ROBERTS Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Oshkosh Accident --> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS I have never meet Cliff but have viewed his web site several times throughout my build. To hear you all speak of him and his wife I can see I have missed meeting a great couple. To give of ones self and to help others reach there goals is what the creator intended for all us, and something I have been reminded to get better at, by Cliffs example. I have just returned early from camping at Oshkosh. One of my goals was to meet Cliff and get a chance up close to finally see Wile-E- Coyote. With the rest of the Europa community I want to express my sincere condolences to the Shaw family. My sadness for his family followed me throughout my short stay there and has forced me to give a second thought to the dangers I would ask of my own wife and family as I would like them to enjoy my new plane. As a low time 300 + hour pilot at 26 hours into the 40 hour fly off of N128LJ... I am very concerned at the cross-controlling and stall warning in this message... especially at different weights! I have so far found the Europa to be the easiest plane I have ever landed. I have slipped it down a few hundred feet on final when approaching too high. I have landed it fast with 10 degrees of flaps, or no flaps, on MQY's 5000 and 8000 ft strips, and full flaps on a short grass strip. For safety I use 70 to 75 KTS on final and have had no problem slowing with pitch and closing the throttle close to the threshold. I have yet to be heavy though and that is my concern. I believe if someone had stall numbers at different weights on a tri-gear it may help all of us. If there is anyone out there with test results on this subject... you have my vote to share them. It is with the most possible respect for the Shaw family that I say I hope we can all learn something positive from this otherwise seemingly senseless tragedy. Please do not archive. Jeff A258 - N128LJ - Flying On Jul 28, 2006, at 9:55 AM, Bob Jacobsen wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bob Jacobsen" > > > > I have additional information on Cliff & Betty's Oshkosh accident. > First is the NTSB's preliminay report - this can also be found on the > NTSB website. > > Also the NTSB has spoken with Mike and a pilot we know who was an > eyewitness. Additionally I test flew Cliff's plane for him, knew him > well and knew what kind of pilot he was. My hope is this information > will prevent another accident of this type. > > First the NTSB Report: > > NTSB Identification: CHI06FA196 > 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation > Accident occurred Sunday, July 23, 2006 in Oshkosh, WI > Aircraft: Shaw Europa XS, registration: N229WC > Injuries: 2 Fatal. > > This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain > errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final > report has been completed. > > On July 23, 2006, at 0845 central dylight time, a Shaw Europa XS, > N229WC, collided with the runway following a loss of control while on > final approach to runway 27 (6,178 feet by 150 feet, dry asphalt) at > the Wittman Regional Airport (OSH), Oshkosh, Wisconsin. The private > pilot and passenger were fatally injured. The airplane was destroyed. > The 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 personal flight was > operating in visual meteorological conditions without a flight plan. > The flight originated from the Portage Municipal Airport (C47), > Portage, Wisconsin, at approximately 0815. > > The airplane was landing at OSH for the EAA AirVenture fly-in. Witness > reported seeing the airplane "low and slow" on downwind to runway 27. > One witness, a certified flight instructor, stated the airplane > remained slow as it overshot final approach. The witnesses reported > seeing the airplane stall on final approach. The airplane impacted the > runway on the displaced threshold. > > Now information about Cliff's plane. > > I test flew the plane for the first time on 6/29/03 - Flight lasted > about a half hour. I did some slow flight to get airspeed readings > but did not fully stall the airplane. I felt that it would drop a > wing - so I was very careful to keep everything centered. About a > week later John Hurst was flying the plane with Cliff to try to iron > out an engine problem. They stalled the plane and it flipped inverted > instantly. We added some stall strips and got it's behavior a bit > better - but it was a always a nasty stalling airplane. > > final. I am sure he pulled a hard turn to final while slow. I can > also guess he was a bit cross controlled and the plane stalled. > snapped inverted and went into a spin. I am told the plane impacted > nose down and inverted. I am also told it had spun "a couple of > times". > > The Europa is a great design however it does have a very powerful and > sensitive elevator (thats why is so fun). Additionally the rudder is > powerful - but must be used correctly. Cross controlling and > accelerated stalling any airplane is a problem, the Europa is even > more so than some and probably easier to do with the powerful > controls. > > > Here is waht the FAA pilots flying handbook says about this: > > According to the FAA publication Airplane Flying Handbook, section on > accelerated stalls and cross control stalls, ...Stalls which result > from abrupt maneuvers tend to be more rapid, or severe, than the > unaccelerated stalls, and because they occur at higher-than-normal > airspeeds, they may be unexpected by an inexperienced pilot. Failure > to take immediate steps toward recovery when an accelerated stall > occurs may result in a complete loss of flight control, notably, > power-on spins... a cross control stall...is most apt to occur during > a poorly planned and executed base-to-final approach turn...the > airplane often stalls with little warning. The nose may pitch down, > the inside wing may suddenly drop and the airplane may continue to > roll to an inverted position...It is imperative that this type of > stall not occur during an actual approach to a landing since recovery > may be impossible prior to ground contact due to the low altitude...." > > > Bob Jacobsen > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:46:17 AM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cross controlling ailerons and rudder in the landing approach --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein Glenn, I have never heard the terms, "bottom rudder", or "top rudder". At the risk of asking a stupid question, could you please explain the terms and how they apply in the present instance. Fred On Friday, July 28, 2006, at 09:48 AM, GLENN CROWDER wrote: > > I was taught on the Europa to never use the bottom rudder on the turn > from base to final and just make the turn with ailerons. If you hit > the bottom rudder, you are slowing the inside wing more than the > outside wing. It is permissible to use the top rudder in the turn as > this accelerates the inside wing (which is what you do in a slip). So > one can cause a stall by using bottom rudder and not be cross > controlled. I was taught that as long as you use top rudder only (or > no rudder at all) on the base to final turn, the inside wing cannot > stall first. > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:04:59 AM PST US From: "GLENN CROWDER" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cross controlling ailerons and rudder in the landing approach --> Europa-List message posted by: "GLENN CROWDER" Hey Fred! Bottom rudder would be the lower rudder pedal in a turn. On a left turn to final, the left rudder would be the bottom rudder. Glenn >From: Fred Klein >To: europa-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cross controlling ailerons and rudder in the >landing approach >Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 10:43:51 -0700 > >--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein > >Glenn, > >I have never heard the terms, "bottom rudder", or "top rudder". At the risk >of asking a stupid question, could you please explain the terms and how >they apply in the present instance. > >Fred > >On Friday, July 28, 2006, at 09:48 AM, GLENN CROWDER wrote: > >> >> I was taught on the Europa to never use the bottom rudder on the turn >>from base to final and just make the turn with ailerons. If you hit the >>bottom rudder, you are slowing the inside wing more than the outside wing. >> It is permissible to use the top rudder in the turn as this accelerates >>the inside wing (which is what you do in a slip). So one can cause a >>stall by using bottom rudder and not be cross controlled. I was taught >>that as long as you use top rudder only (or no rudder at all) on the base >>to final turn, the inside wing cannot stall first. > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >http://wiki.matronics.com > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:25:41 AM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Airspeed awareness in the circuit --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" What is wrong with a normal stall warner - the buzzer can be plumbed onto the intercom if desired or just placed at head height where the microphone will pick up the noise. Mine goes off 5kts before the stall but if the aircraft was in a turn and the wing tip stalled there wouldnt be enough warning. Some Europas will drop a wing if they are not straight and level prior to the stall. This is further complicated if the panel isnt perfectly aligned with the wings - dont laugh, ours isnt and it all looks perfectly level in the cockpit. The only clue is that the ball sits slightly to the left when flying straight and level. If you centre the ball and initiate a stall there is a severe wing drop especially with the flaps down. wonder how many other Europas have the same characteristic. It would surprise me that such an experienced pilot would make such a basic mistake but then we have all done stupid things when our concentration has been disturbed. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 5:04 PM > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mark Burton" > > I know some folks may well think that I am trying to profit from the > recent tragic accident at Oshkosh but my motivation for writing this > message is not to make money out of that incident but rather to reduce the > chance of a similar accident occuring in the future. > > As soon as I heard about that accident, it occurred to me that if Cliff's > Europa had been fitted with one of my talking ASI units, the accident may > have been avoided. Reading the preliminary accident report reinforces that > view. I'm not saying it would definitely have turned out differently, but > it may have. > > One of the main reasons for designing the talking ASI was to make the > pilot very aware of the airspeed during the later part of the circuit > without requiring them to have their eyes in the cockpit. The airspeed is > "pushed" at the pilot through their headset. > > If I was financially well off, I would give a talking ASI to anyone who > wanted one because I believe it makes a real contribution to flight > safety. I can't afford to do that but if you are interested in obtaining > one, please visit www.smartavionics.com. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50337#50337 > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:42:13 PM PST US From: "Mark Burton" Subject: Europa-List: Re: Airspeed awareness in the circuit --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mark Burton" Having a stall warning alarm has to be better than nothing at all but it probably won't give you much protection in the case of an accelerated stall in a Europa. I have stalled my Europa many times (at height, of course) and, often, one of the wings will go down very quickly. My belief is that if the airspeed is maintained within the "safe zone" (given the aircraft weight and weather conditions) then you are unlikely to stall unless the controls are operated inappropriately. Regards, Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50406#50406 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:14:49 PM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Oshkosh Accident --> Europa-List message posted by: Andrew Sarangan What's confusing to me is the witness statement that he was "low and slow on downwind". Getting slow and low on final is somewhat understandable, esepcially if he was attempting to do a short field landing, but getting low on downwind seems a bit strange. Is it possible that his static port was malfunctioning, giving an incorrect altitude and airspeed? --- Bob Jacobsen wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bob Jacobsen" > > > > I have additional information on Cliff & Betty's Oshkosh accident. > First is > the NTSB's preliminay report - this can also be found on the NTSB > website. > > Also the NTSB has spoken with Mike and a pilot we know who was an > eyewitness. Additionally I test flew Cliff's plane for him, knew him > well > and knew what kind of pilot he was. My hope is this information will > > prevent another accident of this type. > > First the NTSB Report: > > NTSB Identification: CHI06FA196 > 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation > Accident occurred Sunday, July 23, 2006 in Oshkosh, WI > Aircraft: Shaw Europa XS, registration: N229WC > Injuries: 2 Fatal. > > This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain > errors. > Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has > been > completed. > > On July 23, 2006, at 0845 central dylight time, a Shaw Europa XS, > N229WC, > collided with the runway following a loss of control while on final > approach > to runway 27 (6,178 feet by 150 feet, dry asphalt) at the Wittman > Regional > Airport (OSH), Oshkosh, Wisconsin. The private pilot and passenger > were > fatally injured. The airplane was destroyed. The 14 Code of Federal > Regulations Part 91 personal flight was operating in visual > meteorological > conditions without a flight plan. The flight originated from the > Portage > Municipal Airport (C47), Portage, Wisconsin, at approximately 0815. > > The airplane was landing at OSH for the EAA AirVenture fly-in. > Witness > reported seeing the airplane "low and slow" on downwind to runway 27. > One > witness, a certified flight instructor, stated the airplane remained > slow as > it overshot final approach. The witnesses reported seeing the > airplane stall > on final approach. The airplane impacted the runway on the displaced > threshold. > > Now information about Cliff's plane. > > I test flew the plane for the first time on 6/29/03 - Flight lasted > about a > half hour. I did some slow flight to get airspeed readings but did > not > fully stall the airplane. I felt that it would drop a wing - so I > was very > careful to keep everything centered. About a week later John Hurst > was > flying the plane with Cliff to try to iron out an engine problem. > They > stalled the plane and it flipped inverted instantly. We added some > stall > strips and got it's behavior a bit better - but it was a always a > nasty > stalling airplane. > > final. I am sure he pulled a hard turn to final while slow. I can > also > guess he was a bit cross controlled and the plane stalled. snapped > inverted > and went into a spin. I am told the plane impacted nose down and > inverted. > I am also told it had spun "a couple of times". > > The Europa is a great design however it does have a very powerful and > > sensitive elevator (thats why is so fun). Additionally the rudder is > > powerful - but must be used correctly. Cross controlling and > accelerated > stalling any airplane is a problem, the Europa is even more so than > some and > probably easier to do with the powerful controls. > > > Here is waht the FAA pilots flying handbook says about this: > > According to the FAA publication Airplane Flying Handbook, section on > > accelerated stalls and cross control stalls, ...Stalls which result > from > abrupt maneuvers tend to be more rapid, or severe, than the > unaccelerated > stalls, and because they occur at higher-than-normal airspeeds, they > may be > unexpected by an inexperienced pilot. Failure to take immediate steps > toward > recovery when an accelerated stall occurs may result in a complete > loss of > flight control, notably, power-on spins... a cross control stall...is > most > apt to occur during a poorly planned and executed base-to-final > approach > turn...the airplane often stalls with little warning. The nose may > pitch > down, the inside wing may suddenly drop and the airplane may continue > to > roll to an inverted position...It is imperative that this type of > stall not > occur during an actual approach to a landing since recovery may be > impossible prior to ground contact due to the low altitude...." > > > > Bob Jacobsen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:22:01 PM PST US From: JEFF ROBERTS Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Oshkosh Accident --> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS I have never meet Cliff but have viewed his web site several times throughout my build. To hear you all speak of him and his wife I can see I have missed meeting a great couple. To give of ones self to help others reach there goals is what the creator intended for all us, and I have been reminded to get better at it by Cliffs example. I have just returned early from camping at Oshkosh. One of my goals was to meet Cliff and get a chance up close to finally see Wile-E- Coyote. With the rest of the Europa community I want to express my sincere condolences to the Shaw family. My sadness for his family followed me throughout my short stay there and has forced me to give a second thought to the dangers I would ask of my own wife and family as I would like them to enjoy my new plane. As a low time 300 + hour pilot at 26 into the 40 hour fly off of N128LJ... I am very concerned at the cross-controlling and stall warning in this message, especially at different weights. I have so far found the Europa to be the easiest plane I have ever landed. I have slipped it down a few hundred feet on final when approaching too high. I have landed it fast with 10 degrees of flaps, or no flaps, on MQY's 5000 and 8000 ft strips, and full flaps on a short grass strips. For safety I use 70 to 75 KTS on final and have had no problem slowing with pitch and closing the throttle close to the threshold. But I have yet to be heavy and that is my concern. I believe if someone has stall numbers at different weights on a tri-gear it may be a good time to post them. If there is anyone out there with test results on this subject... you have my vote to share them. It is with the most possible respect for the Shaw family that I say I hope we can all learn something positive from this awful tragedy. Please do not archive. Jeff A258 - N128LJ - Flying On Jul 28, 2006, at 9:55 AM, Bob Jacobsen wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bob Jacobsen" > > > > I have additional information on Cliff & Betty's Oshkosh accident. > First is the NTSB's preliminay report - this can also be found on the > NTSB website. > > Also the NTSB has spoken with Mike and a pilot we know who was an > eyewitness. Additionally I test flew Cliff's plane for him, knew him > well and knew what kind of pilot he was. My hope is this information > will prevent another accident of this type. > > First the NTSB Report: > > NTSB Identification: CHI06FA196 > 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation > Accident occurred Sunday, July 23, 2006 in Oshkosh, WI > Aircraft: Shaw Europa XS, registration: N229WC > Injuries: 2 Fatal. > > This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain > errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final > report has been completed. > > On July 23, 2006, at 0845 central dylight time, a Shaw Europa XS, > N229WC, collided with the runway following a loss of control while on > final approach to runway 27 (6,178 feet by 150 feet, dry asphalt) at > the Wittman Regional Airport (OSH), Oshkosh, Wisconsin. The private > pilot and passenger were fatally injured. The airplane was destroyed. > The 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 personal flight was > operating in visual meteorological conditions without a flight plan. > The flight originated from the Portage Municipal Airport (C47), > Portage, Wisconsin, at approximately 0815. > > The airplane was landing at OSH for the EAA AirVenture fly-in. Witness > reported seeing the airplane "low and slow" on downwind to runway 27. > One witness, a certified flight instructor, stated the airplane > remained slow as it overshot final approach. The witnesses reported > seeing the airplane stall on final approach. The airplane impacted the > runway on the displaced threshold. > > Now information about Cliff's plane. > > I test flew the plane for the first time on 6/29/03 - Flight lasted > about a half hour. I did some slow flight to get airspeed readings > but did not fully stall the airplane. I felt that it would drop a > wing - so I was very careful to keep everything centered. About a > week later John Hurst was flying the plane with Cliff to try to iron > out an engine problem. They stalled the plane and it flipped inverted > instantly. We added some stall strips and got it's behavior a bit > better - but it was a always a nasty stalling airplane. > > final. I am sure he pulled a hard turn to final while slow. I can > also guess he was a bit cross controlled and the plane stalled. > snapped inverted and went into a spin. I am told the plane impacted > nose down and inverted. I am also told it had spun "a couple of > times". > > The Europa is a great design however it does have a very powerful and > sensitive elevator (thats why is so fun). Additionally the rudder is > powerful - but must be used correctly. Cross controlling and > accelerated stalling any airplane is a problem, the Europa is even > more so than some and probably easier to do with the powerful > controls. > > > Here is waht the FAA pilots flying handbook says about this: > > According to the FAA publication Airplane Flying Handbook, section on > accelerated stalls and cross control stalls, ...Stalls which result > from abrupt maneuvers tend to be more rapid, or severe, than the > unaccelerated stalls, and because they occur at higher-than-normal > airspeeds, they may be unexpected by an inexperienced pilot. Failure > to take immediate steps toward recovery when an accelerated stall > occurs may result in a complete loss of flight control, notably, > power-on spins... a cross control stall...is most apt to occur during > a poorly planned and executed base-to-final approach turn...the > airplane often stalls with little warning. The nose may pitch down, > the inside wing may suddenly drop and the airplane may continue to > roll to an inverted position...It is imperative that this type of > stall not occur during an actual approach to a landing since recovery > may be impossible prior to ground contact due to the low altitude...." > > > Bob Jacobsen > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:22:01 PM PST US From: rlborger Subject: Europa-List: Re: Airspeed awareness in the circuit & cross controlling Fellow Europaphiles, I guess I have to add my 2 bits to these topics (one topic really). Skid or slip, both are cross controlled conditions. If the ball isn't in the center, you are cross controlled. The slip is less dangerous, but you can stall out of it too, you just stall the "up" wing instead of the "down" wing. The turn from base to final is the source of one heck of a lot of accidents. Usually the result of a delayed turn. The delay might be due to a misjudgment of the winds, a bit too long on the scan up final to check for someone out there, unexpected radio call, whatever. You find yourself overshooting the turn and you want to get back lined up on final. You steepen the bank but it isn't enough and you are low and slow enough that you don't want to increase the bank angle any more. Darn, you are so close to that center line, maybe just a quick poke of that "down" rudder will chase the nose around and get you close to lined up. You poke and, Bingo, the "down" wing stalls, you flip over and you are in a spin at an altitude where you'll never recover. It's very insidious. It can happen to anyone regardless of experience level. I saw it happen to a highly experienced glider tow pilot (many many hours) in a Super Cub when he tried to hurry the turn to final so he get down to pick up that next tow ASAP. Luckily, he walked (limped?) away from it bruised but otherwise unhurt. My private instructor warned me incessantly about it. Finally demonstrating it to me at altitude. It impressed me! Man, one minute you are in a nice turn, then you are doing an upside down spin entry. I think we lost 1000 - 1500 feet (300 - 500 meters for you folks on the east side of the pond) before we recovered. The other interesting thing was no stall warning till it was way too late and we were going over. That was in 1968 and I'm STILL impressed. (Thanks to Carol "Speed" Conaway for that lesson!) All I can say is resist that temptation to use that "down" rudder to hurry the nose around when you are already uncomfortable with the bank angle and turn rate. That "down" wing is on the inside of the turn, moving much slower than the "up" wing on the outside. Even though your airspeed may look OK, it probably wouldn't take much of a kick on the rudder to make the low wing stop flying. I'll get off my soapbox and let the rest of you fire away. Good building and great (safe, please, I don't want to lose any more friends) flying, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL (85%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in, outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in, Mod 70 done. Baggage bay in. Working in - 24 Instrument Panel, 25 Electrical, 28 Flaps, 29 Main Gear, 30 Fuel System, 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35 Doors, 37 Finishing. Airmaster arrived 29 Sep 05. Seat arrived from Oregon Aero. Preparing ROTAX 914 for installation. 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:53:12 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Airspeed awareness in the circuit --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! All Firstly belated but sincere condolences to all the bereaved family and friends of Cliff and Betty Shaw. I feel really humble making pronouncements at such an early time and indeed wonder if with about 600 hours total and only on this type of a/c I'm qualified to pass an opinion but here goes...... I believe that the cross control thing is really commonly known as a "side slip"? Whilst this is a useful phenomenon for rapid loss of height on an approach I have always been very cautious to not engage in such a manoeuvre at low air speed and with flaps deployed. Perhaps I never had to land on a strip with such needs? However IMHO an important aid to stall warning needs to be associated with the conditions on both wings hence the use of stall strips on both wings. I experienced my first severe wing drop this April whilst doing the annual flight tests on my a/c but at 5,000ft. I had for some time been flying on the very edge of the stall with full buffet being experienced with flaps deployed and power on but with the a/c quite co-ordinated in control when it suddenly and violently dropped a port wing like a stone and was clearly entering a spin. I initiated normal spin recovery ...nose down opposite rudder and cut the throttle, but I had lost more than a 1000ft in a blink of the eye. It has shown no previous tendency to this whilst I've flown it. I applied a lot of thought to the conditions which I'd entered and realised I had been not only down wind but also slightly across the wind path so the wings were not likely to have had symmetrical lift conditions anyway and so were not co-ordinated. I failed to notice the probability of a slightly different buffet phenomenon with only the one wing actually entering the dramatic stall but I presume it would have been less obvious than a fully co-ordinated buffet. The point I seek to make is that whilst on approach to land all turns need to be co-ordinated, at an adequate height well above stall speed and not inclusive of any unusual or violent manoeuvres. IMHO these approaches can only really be described as "LONG FINALS". Only then can you afford to allow the airspeed to be anywhere near the stall conditions.(and no side slips) In making this statement I don't wish to appear clever but to promote some more discussion around my particular perception for me to consider as advice for myself. This re-enforces the valuable aid of Mark Burtons air speed voice kit in that it provides a constant read out whilst your eyes are on other business. ( I don't have that assistance .....yet!) Personally I never commence the flare at less than 65kts, fully laden or not, and I seek to maintain no less than 60kts until within a foot of the runway, only then am I prepared to allow the speed to sink further (especially in gusty wind or where there's possibility of wind shear.) Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG ....under repair ! -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carl Pattinson Sent: 28 July 2006 19:24 --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" What is wrong with a normal stall warner - the buzzer can be plumbed onto the intercom if desired or just placed at head height where the microphone will pick up the noise. Mine goes off 5kts before the stall but if the aircraft was in a turn and the wing tip stalled there wouldnt be enough warning. Some Europas will drop a wing if they are not straight and level prior to the stall. This is further complicated if the panel isnt perfectly aligned with the wings - dont laugh, ours isnt and it all looks perfectly level in the cockpit. The only clue is that the ball sits slightly to the left when flying straight and level. If you centre the ball and initiate a stall there is a severe wing drop especially with the flaps down. wonder how many other Europas have the same characteristic. It would surprise me that such an experienced pilot would make such a basic mistake but then we have all done stupid things when our concentration has been disturbed. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 5:04 PM > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mark Burton" > > I know some folks may well think that I am trying to profit from the > recent tragic accident at Oshkosh but my motivation for writing this > message is not to make money out of that incident but rather to reduce the > chance of a similar accident occuring in the future. > > As soon as I heard about that accident, it occurred to me that if Cliff's > Europa had been fitted with one of my talking ASI units, the accident may > have been avoided. Reading the preliminary accident report reinforces that > view. I'm not saying it would definitely have turned out differently, but > it may have. > > One of the main reasons for designing the talking ASI was to make the > pilot very aware of the airspeed during the later part of the circuit > without requiring them to have their eyes in the cockpit. The airspeed is > "pushed" at the pilot through their headset. > > If I was financially well off, I would give a talking ASI to anyone who > wanted one because I believe it makes a real contribution to flight > safety. I can't afford to do that but if you are interested in obtaining > one, please visit www.smartavionics.com. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50337#50337 > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:47 PM PST US From: "europa flugzeug fabrik" Subject: Europa-List: Re: Airspeed awareness in the circuit --> Europa-List message posted by: "europa flugzeug fabrik" > It would surprise me that such an experienced pilot would make such a basic mistake but then we have all done stupid things when our concentration has been disturbed. Having flown into the Oshkosh convention many times, it is indeed a unique and exhilirating experience. However, things can happen which divert your attention. What people in front of you are doing. What tower may tell you, but you don't quite understand. But the rule at AirVenture is you just listen, and never key the mike, so there's no colloquy. I violated that rule once, while following some WWI-era biplane or replica, I swear in slow flight. My plane on the verge of stall-warning horn with full flaps down is a real turtle. But I still had to break it off the right downwind for 27, going north over the City. Gotta love the ATC people who work Oshkosh AirVenture, because they spotted my plight. I was turning west, to go back down to the City of Ripon per the NOTAM procedure and start all over (but parking may fill up), when Tower said..."Low wing over the City...suggest you bring your plane back NOW, for mid-field entry to the downwind. Traffic behind you will be a Cessna 337, but he's still over the railroad tracks not ready to turn right downwind for 27. Please keep your speed up...he's a 337...and please make short approach. Land on the green dot! [midway down the long ryw, temporarily painted in iridescent paint]. Seemingly knife-edge bank, 100% power mashed in to comply, I spotted that 337 traffic, and picked up the mike and said. "Low wing over the city THANKS YOU!" Very occasionally at KOSH, we violate an advisory thing in the Oshkosh arrival NOTAM to compliment an FAA employee who did something he/she was not required to do. Upon hitting that green dot (how I don't know; I'm not that good!). Tower says, "Nice job Grumman!....337 [instructed to land short on the other color dot at the rwy threshold] follow that Grumman ahead of you to parking." Thence, quickly on to ATC instructions to other folks streaming in, couple thousand feet apart. The point of this is that flying into OSH is a very unique thing and such accidents are extremely rare. Most tend to arrive a little hot -- the rush of the arrival drill, so they'll never stall-spin, and it actually helps ATC. We have to be honest with ourselves, and maybe even 95% of us would be little served with a hand-written panel placard for OSH which says, "ALWAYS FLY THE AIRPLANE." We may never learn what happened here, because our NTSB does not investigate amateur-built accidents with anywhere near the thoroughness of the AAIB in the UK. It probably will be chalked up in probable cause (AAIB avoids probable cause determinations -- our NTSB has considered same approach) to failure to maintain flying speed. I'm as saddened by this accident as anybody here, but it happened...and it can happen in any aircraft. Fred F. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50435#50435 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:29 PM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Airspeed awareness in the circuit --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Parkin" > I applied a lot of thought to the conditions which I'd entered and > realised I had been not only down wind but also slightly across the wind > path so the wings were not likely to have had symmetrical lift > conditions anyway and so were not co-ordinated. Bob, Sorry Bob, but flying across wind does not mean that there is more lift on one wing than the other. Apart from the effects of gusts, the direction of flight relative to the prevaling wind direction is irrelevant. The aircraft is flying in a 'packet of air' in the normal manner and moves relative to the ground as a result of the vector of the aircraft through that packet of air and the vector of the packet of air itself. There are some inertia problems which can manifest themselves when turning from upwind to downwind tending to cause the IAS to decay a little. This is one of the many factors affecting the decision to turnback following an engine failure after take-off . My own opinion about flying turnbacks is DO NOT DO IT. On another subject - the Europa Company stall warner does give a good warning of an approaching stall - normal and accellerated. regards, Mike Do not archive. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:27 PM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: Europa-List: Taming the Stall. The sad loss of Cliff and Betty Shaw has highlighted the Europa's behaviour around the stall. Similar to 'Wiley E Coyote' , my aircraft G-JULZ had a severe (right) wing drop in the flaps down configuration stall. G-JULZ has an XS fuselage but the original foam wings. In the early days of flying G-JULZ I noticed that the ailerons were nicely in line with the wings when on the ground but in the air with the wings loaded the ailerons were no longer streamlined with the wing. In straight and level flight it appeared that the right aileron was slightly drooped. Over several flights I slowly adjusted out the droop at the wing root. The result was the tendency to wing drop had disappeared and G-JULZ now has very benign stall characteristics in all configurations - normal and accellerated. With the factory stall warner fitted, it was not necessary to fit any stall strips to the wing at all, which keeps the wings aerodynamically clean and permits the maximum short field performance. Now this is not the solution for all wing drop problems; symmetry of the wings (particularly the foam ones), flap set-up and the actual incidence of the wing to the fuselage all have an effect. But have a look at the ailerons when the wing is loaded. If you have a wing drop at the stall, it might be part of the problem. Plainly, adjusting the ailerons to correct a streamlining problem will have an effect on the travel limits of the controls which must be considered. regards, Mike Do not archive. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:53 PM PST US From: "Mark Burton" Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa Oshkosh Accident --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mark Burton" If you use a GPS (who doesn't?) then it makes sense to compare your airspeed against the GPS when you are downwind in the circuit and also when you have just turned onto final to avoid being fooled by a gross error caused by a failure of the pitot/static/asi system. Obviously, you have to take the (possibly estimated) windspeed into account and the numbers will rarely match up exactly but if the results are wildly different, you can be on your guard. Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=50495#50495