Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:06 AM - Re: Cross controlling ailerons and rudder in the landing approach ()
2. 01:33 AM - Re: Wing drop in the stall (BEBERRY@aol.com)
3. 01:38 AM - Crank case cracks. (BEBERRY@aol.com)
4. 01:49 AM - Dropping a wing at stall ()
5. 01:56 AM - Re: Cross controlling ailerons and rudder in the landing approach ()
6. 02:13 AM - Re: Crank case cracks. ()
7. 02:36 AM - Re: Crank case cracks. (Richard Iddon)
8. 06:27 AM - Re: Re: Wing drop in the stall (Chris Beck)
9. 07:35 AM - Re: Crank case cracks. (BEBERRY@aol.com)
10. 07:57 AM - Turn to final Cross-controlling (Fergus Kyle)
11. 08:10 AM - Re: Wing drop in the stall (GLENN CROWDER)
12. 08:23 AM - Re: Re: Wing drop in the stall (Carl Pattinson)
13. 12:07 PM - Re: Re: Wing drop in the stall (Andrew Sarangan)
14. 01:18 PM - Re: Wing drop in the stall (Mike Parkin)
15. 01:46 PM - europa trailer (Mike Gamble)
16. 02:02 PM - Re: Wing drop in the stall (BEBERRY@aol.com)
17. 02:49 PM - Automatic Flaps up - Tri Gear (Peter Rees)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Cross controlling ailerons and rudder in the landing |
approach
--> Europa-List message posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
I would like to add:
Good definition of exact what happens base to final many times:
http://avstop.com/AC/FlightTraingHandbook/CrossedControlStall.html
Good brush up info:
http://avstop.com/AC/FlightTraingHandbook/CrossedControlStall.html
One point that not all pilots realize is that they can easily be flying an
airplane they are unfamiliar with even if they have a lot of hours in
type????
How?? Flying in thinner air than normal. Add humidity, rarefy, or go up in
altitude, and or fly at a heavier weight.
I have many more hours flying a 4 foot electric model than I do acting as
PIC of full scale. It is a unique electric model where the same wing is
used but have different electric power sources (Quick Sticks). AUW can
range between 19 oz to 46oz. That is a big change. There is not very many
times out where I don't spin it at least a few dozen turns with varying
AUWs.
When I was perfecting my flying and Quick Sticks, there were times with
the same AUWs, same CGs where I could not get into a good fully developed
spin?? Then there were times I would inadvertent enter a spin that was
unrecoverable??? It was kind of like the tail that wags the dog with me
fooling with changing the CG to tweak.
Variable was thickness of air!! Heavier usual will enter a spin easier,
and harder to recover for a given CG and air density.
Worst case is thin air, heavy and aft CG. Thin air on my model has the
greatest effect.
Just because you practiced spins on a 172 at 68 degrees 2 people and half
tanks, gives you way too much confidence with 4 people at gross, and 90
degrees at 2500 feet AGL with high humidity.
Here is reason why. Lets say you put an airspeed indicator on the rudder
of a 172 facing 90 degrees to rudder where we can measure airspeed
sideways in a spin. Lets keep the weight the same and CG the same in 2
scenarios. First lets let a spin fully develop into a 1000 foot deep hole
in Death Valley when it is 50 degrees below zero and a dew point of 100
degrees below zero, airspeed indicator would normalize at lets say 20
knots. Then lets go up to 18,000 feet where it is 110 degrees with a dew
point of 100 degrees. (Our 172 is a XXP with a 450HP PT6 turbo prop, and
airframe is constructed out of unobtanium so AUW is the same as a 180HP
Hawk) and let a spin fully develop, the airspeed indicator would normalize
at, you guessed it, 20 knots???
The difference is in Death Valley you would most likly be spinning less
RPM than a Cub on a normal day at sea level, but at 18K would be spinning
faster than a maple leaf could ever hope for. At 18K the a spin will much
more easily develop without trying, and once entered since the rudder is
most likely no where near effective enough to allow a recovery. Add more
to AUW, much worst, and go aft CG even much more worstererer.
One thing I use in models, and since so successful with models, full scale
as well is a pseudo eyes off, ears off airspeed indicator, stall
prewarner. Simple stupid. Do a very slight pitch up. That's it! When you
know your aeroplane, by doing this you can tell when response is sluggish,
you are getting close to stall. Great aid for final flare, steep turns or
when flying downwind where your ground speed can fool you into thinking
you have plenty of airspeed. After a while it is second nature, kind of
like counter steering on a motorcycle to avoid a threat. It will never
trick you like fast ground speed could when the wind shifted 180 degrees 3
seconds before touchdown and is giving you a tailwind. Works too with
roll, when in steep turns at lower speeds, you can feel ailerons begin to
get mushy, if you did nothing more than lower the nose you can feel much
more better response.
Works great on models when you are not in plane, works great when in
plane.
Remember nobody says you need to keep altitude when making turns, practice
up high, and try doing the worst things you can to enter a spin, and see
by just dropping the nose a little how much harder it is to enter a spin.
If you fly by using throttle to control altitude, and pitch to control
speed, if you overshot center line, go ahead and make a coordinated turn,
just don't pull back as hard as you need to maintain altitude, drop nose a
bit, you will gain a bit of airspeed, you will not pull as many gs but
most important keep your angle of attack lower. Add a bit of power and
sort when wings are near level. If you don't have enough runway to sort
out just go around.
If in a coordinated steep turn, if you must roll out quick, dropping the
nose helps a lot as well to prevent the low wing from stalling.
My main point for all this rambling, is try all this testing not just in
thick air, try it in thin air and heavy. You may realize you are flying
something that is very different from what you are expecting to be flying.
Ron Parigoris
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Wing drop in the stall |
All the recent correspondence following the tragedy at Oshkosh seems to
point to a basic instability with the Europa. Is this inherent in the design or
due to building errors?
Trimming ailerons to achieve smooth integration with the wing profile is
dodgy and may point to a basic error in construction with one wing having a
different lift characteristic to the other. The descriptions of other incidents
such as a very sudden wing drop and incipient spin are not asociated with any
other GA or home build as far as I know.
Questions.. do people's experiences of wing drops apply generally in the
same manner or do they apply to different wings and perhaps mainly to the foam
wing?
Should there be improved ways of measuring the newly formed wing profile
before finishing?
Have any pilots flown different Europas to see if the problem is replicated?
I have never known a severe - or even comparatively slight wing drop in the
stall, power on or off, in GA aircraft so the apparent Europa problem is
worrying and needs some more in depth investigation.
Patrick
Message 3
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| Subject: | Crank case cracks. |
I have just received a Rotax service bulletin requiring a crank case
inspection for cracks(presumably following the one case reported on this site so
far), and am not sure where to look next.
I have carried out a complete eyeballing of the crank case without
discovering any problem and have no oil or coolant leaks.
There is nothing in the Rotax bulletin to suggest where the possible damage
may occur or where and how to carry out the inspection.
Any comments please?
Patrick
Message 4
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| Subject: | Dropping a wing at stall |
--> Europa-List message posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
I am wondering if one has a Europa with a tendency to drop a wing, if it
could not be severely helped by simply adding a bit of NASA Lead Edge
droop???
Reading on the books written by Don Dykens, he calls it another name, but
essential states that on the Europa super efficient wing he incorporated
the perfect amount of NASA lead edge droop to give good slow speed
performance with minimal top speed drag.
To digress a bit, on my 4 foot span model, that I normal fly between 19
and 46 oz AUW, since there were many nay Sayers that AUW should be kept
below half of my 46 oz, I figured I should find out just how heavy could
go before something happened.
Kept adding weight till I was at 72 oz and it flew pretty good, just fast.
This was bungi launched so flight times were limited. So we built a real
sample with 16 cells and 3/4 of a HP. Absolute stink fast, pure vertical,
but landings were a bear, even though it had 3 degrees of washout, the
thing was so heavy, when you got slow and tried lifting a wing, the
aileron would stall the wing, upside down into the ground right now!
Not taking no for an answer I began to investigate NASA Lead edge droop.
this is a flying wing so anything you do on the trail edge also effects
pitch. I began adding some NASA Lead edge droop as Don depicts that some
older English airplanes used to do, just whittle some wood, get it stuck
and go fly and try!
It worked where the plane turned from a 1 out of 3 landings guaranteed
crash, to a pussy cat. Top speed suffered a little. The plane WAGMAX was a
great success, that is until the spar system failed. Instead of a rebuild,
we created WAGMAX 2. What do you do to a beast like this? Made a plenty
beefy spar, got a thinner wing, less wing area and increased weight to 80
oz AUW!
The difference is we installed in flight articulatable NASA Lead Edge
droop. Take off with 20 degrees, when going fast go to zero, and get this,
we made it so when going super fast, could go to negative droop! Ends up
that the negative droop seems to negate the 3 degrees washout and boy does
it go fast, just do not stall it as spin would occur in an instant and be
absolute unrecoverable.
Ends up I got an E-Mail from the guy who was on the team at NASA
investigating NASA Lead edge droop, and he was absolute encouraged at
where we had taken that technology, to use it on a flying wing for drag,
and anti spin. He said that they ran out of money and only investigated a
small amount of potential usefulness.
Boy am I long winded.
Anyway the point is I think a Europa with bad stall habits could very well
be enhanced without too much performance loss. For one thing the stall
speed would not be increased. I don't think it would be very dangerous to
test a little at a time, just may be that it may eat a little too much
into performance.
I would rather have an airplane that was 5 knots slower in cruise but had
fair benign stalls at a slow speed, rather than have a plane that cruised
5 knots faster, had a 5 knot faster than slow speed stall, and was not
benign.
Anyone have ability to run this idea past Don Dykins, Ivan Shaw or??
Ron Parigoris
My partner Wayne modeled a XS Monowheel for X-Plane. Could fool with that
to get idea how it would effect stall??
BTW in X-Plane you can turn on force lines and see the dynamics happening.
You can not believe at just how much down force begins to occur on the
wing outboard of the flaps if you fly much past max. flap speed. Foolish
me, I always thought going too fast with flaps down may tear off flaps.
Looking at dynamics that occur, twisting of the wing and failing it quick
come to mind.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Cross controlling ailerons and rudder in the landing |
approach
--> Europa-List message posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Ooooops
Good brush up info:
http://www.theultralightplace.com/stall_&_spin.htm
Ron Parigoris
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Crank case cracks. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Hello Patrick
"Comments please?"
Click here:
http://www.rotax-owner.com/index.htm
Click top tab Service Documentation
Click by Engine Model
I tried 914UL
Search out SB-914-018UL and jot down the service bulletins with full info
then go back and search on all 4 stroke engines and download, gives nice
pictures where to look.
Ron Parigoris
Follow my prior post, get your manual up to date, and sign up for free
E-Mail notification on your engine. All pertinent bulletins were E-Mailed.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Crank case cracks. |
Patrick.
Full bulletin including drawings can be found on the Rotax web site. I
copy info below.
These new Service Bulletins may be downloaded from www.rotax-owner.com
SB-912-029 R3 -
http://www.rotax-owner.com/si_tb_info/getdoc.asp?USERID=riddon
<http://www.rotax-owner.com/si_tb_info/getdoc.asp?USERID=riddon&DOCID=SB
-912-029&S_TYPE=NW> &DOCID=SB-912-029&S_TYPE=NW
SB-914-018 R3 -
http://www.rotax-owner.com/si_tb_info/getdoc.asp?USERID=riddon
<http://www.rotax-owner.com/si_tb_info/getdoc.asp?USERID=riddon&DOCID=SB
-914-018&S_TYPE=NW> &DOCID=SB-914-018&S_TYPE=NW
SB-912-029UL R3 -
http://www.rotax-owner.com/si_tb_info/getdoc.asp?USERID=riddon
<http://www.rotax-owner.com/si_tb_info/getdoc.asp?USERID=riddon&DOCID=SB
-912-029UL&S_TYPE=NW> &DOCID=SB-912-029UL&S_TYPE=NW
SB-914-018UL R3 -
http://www.rotax-owner.com/si_tb_info/getdoc.asp?USERID=riddon
<http://www.rotax-owner.com/si_tb_info/getdoc.asp?USERID=riddon&DOCID=SB
-914-018UL&S_TYPE=NW> &DOCID=SB-914-018UL&S_TYPE=NW
Richard Iddon G-RIXS
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BEBERRY@aol.com
Sent: 29 July 2006 09:37
I have just received a Rotax service bulletin requiring a crank case
inspection for cracks(presumably following the one case reported on this
site so far), and am not sure where to look next.
I have carried out a complete eyeballing of the crank case without
discovering any problem and have no oil or coolant leaks.
There is nothing in the Rotax bulletin to suggest where the possible
damage may occur or where and how to carry out the inspection.
Any comments please?
Patrick
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Wing drop in the stall |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Chris Beck <n9zes@verizon.net>
====================
All the recent correspondence following the tragedy at Oshkosh seems to point to
a basic instability with the Europa. Is this inherent in the design or due to
building errors?Trimming ailerons to achieve smooth integration with the wing
profile is dodgy and may point to a basic error in construction with one wing
having a different lift characteristic to the other. The descriptions of other
incidents such as a very sudden wing drop and incipient spin arenot asociated
with any other GA or home build as far as I know.
---> I don't know about others, but I've flown several C-152's with some pretty
nasty wing drops at stall. One in particular would almost always drop a wing
down at least 60 degrees and need full rudder to pick it up. Aside from that,
it was the best flying out of the 4 at the FBO I trained at. If not paying
attention and really being on top of the plane, an inadvertent stall would put
you on your back, fast.
In contrast, our C-140 wouldn't drop a wing unless deliberately crossed up. I've
not spun it yet, but I have a hard enough time just getting a stall out of
it, with the fuselage banging like an old beer can the whole time from the buffeting.
Big pussy cat.
Chris
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Crank case cracks. |
Thanks Richard,
Patrck
Message 10
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| Subject: | Turn to final Cross-controlling |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
It is tempting to ponder the Shaw accident.
Accident reports simplify down to two results in the reader`s mind:
(1) There but for the Grace of God go I, or
(2) I wouldn`t have done that.
Thanks to Mike Parkin for the warning about drooping ailerons on a
loaded wing - something perhaps we hadn`t considered ourselves....
The described reaction of the Europa wing is much the same as the early
North American cantilever mono-wings such as the NA64Yale and BT9
designs. Get the ball out of centre on final and it`s inverted and 30deg
nosedown in one movie screen - 1-30th second.
I note some misunderstanding about slip and skid. This, for those
less practised or experienced:
Visualise a slippery circular racetrack with fast car centred in the turn.
Too fast and you SKID up and off the track; too slow and you SLIP down off
the track. For each speed there is a bank ideal for centring - same as the
aircraft. The job is to pick the ideal bank for the speed (actually angle of
attack). Turning with only aileron does not answer the threat, depending
on the design of the ailerons. Admittedly, Don Dykins has produced a good
design for aileron drag but it doesn`t make nice to anger Mother nature.
Because the rudder is so effective, it is important to treat it as a
wing-accelerator (unlike a boat). Push left rudder and accelerate the right
wing and slow the left wing. If you are keen to examine the wing at
altitude, consider this. At altitude, the split second the wing drops, add
power, drop nose and give opposite rudder (ie: left wing down, rapid right
rudder). The first two moves speed the `plane up, the latter kick
accelerates the lower wing. If anything will preserve your wellbeing, this
will.
The overriding rule is always co-ordinate the turn ( ball in the
centre) with the bank applicable to the airspeed. The only way to achieve
this is to practise these manoeuvres until they become second nature. When
you can fly the turn with the ball in the centre - without looking at it -
(observer), you are ready to land in less-than-ideal conditions.
YOU must be satisfied, Captain..
Ferg Kyle
Europa A064 914 Classic
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Wing drop in the stall |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "GLENN CROWDER" <gcrowder2@hotmail.com>
I fly with the foam wing on my aircraft at high density altitudes (8500
MSL yesterday) and
at gross weights (pilot 220 lbs, passenger 200 lbs, Subaru engine) and have
have never had
a wing drop at any time unless doing intentional stalls. My wing only has a
mild 30 degree
drop to the left and indicates no tendency to roll under. I also have no
stall strips.
Glenn
>From: BEBERRY@aol.com
>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing drop in the stall
>Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2006 04:32:13 EDT
>
>All the recent correspondence following the tragedy at Oshkosh seems to
>point to a basic instability with the Europa. Is this inherent in the
>design or
>due to building errors?
>
>Trimming ailerons to achieve smooth integration with the wing profile is
>dodgy and may point to a basic error in construction with one wing having a
>different lift characteristic to the other. The descriptions of other
>incidents
>such as a very sudden wing drop and incipient spin are not asociated with
>any
>other GA or home build as far as I know.
>
>Questions.. do people's experiences of wing drops apply generally in the
>same manner or do they apply to different wings and perhaps mainly to the
>foam
>wing?
>
>Should there be improved ways of measuring the newly formed wing profile
>before finishing?
>
>Have any pilots flown different Europas to see if the problem is
>replicated?
>
>I have never known a severe - or even comparatively slight wing drop in the
>stall, power on or off, in GA aircraft so the apparent Europa problem is
>worrying and needs some more in depth investigation.
>
>Patrick
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Wing drop in the stall |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" <carl@flyers.freeserve.co.uk>
The Europa is no more or less unstable than other aircraft but it is a
kitplane so there will be variations between different aircraft.
The problem of the wing dropping in the stall was identified early on by
Europa and the PFA and is easily resolved by the fitting of stall strips. In
the UK stall strips or a stall warner are a mandatory fitment to all Europa
aircraft. I am pretty certain that if you look in your builders/ pilots
manual you will find a passage relating to testing and setting this up.
The stall strips are fitted in such a way that both wings stall at the same
time which eliminates the tendency to drop a wing.
Stall strips are a common fitment to kitplanes and GA aircraft alike. Next
time you walk past a line of aircraft, take a look.
To suggest that this is a Europa specific problem is nonsense.
BTW the most likely cause of a wing drop in the first place is a
misalignment of the flaps which I would imagine is rather difficult to
correct. Far easier to fit the strips or a stall warner.
> ----- Original Message -----
> Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 9:32 AM
>
>
> All the recent correspondence following the tragedy at Oshkosh seems to
> point to a basic instability with the Europa. Is this inherent in the
> design or due to building errors?
>
> Trimming ailerons to achieve smooth integration with the wing profile is
> dodgy and may point to a basic error in construction with one wing having
> a different lift characteristic to the other. The descriptions of other
> incidents such as a very sudden wing drop and incipient spin are not
> asociated with any other GA or home build as far as I know.
>
> Questions.. do people's experiences of wing drops apply generally in the
> same manner or do they apply to different wings and perhaps mainly to the
> foam wing?
>
> Should there be improved ways of measuring the newly formed wing profile
> before finishing?
>
> Have any pilots flown different Europas to see if the problem is
> replicated?
>
> I have never known a severe - or even comparatively slight wing drop in
> the stall, power on or off, in GA aircraft so the apparent Europa problem
> is worrying and needs some more in depth investigation.
>
> Patrick
>
>
>-------------------
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Wing drop in the stall |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@yahoo.com>
Anyone know how much extra drag the stall strips add?
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Wing drop in the stall |
Patrick,
I understand that you bought your aircraft part built. If you had built
the foam wings you would understand why the aircraft flight
characteristics can vary a little.
I think that with the foam wings, the chance of each wing having a
different lift characteristic is an ocean going certainty. Dodgy or
not, adjusting the ailerons to be in the correct position when wingborne
solved a potentially dangerous stall characteristic on my Europa. I was
passing on an experience that worked well for my aircraft, it was not
intended as a panacea for all stalling problems.
Incidentally, a wing drop at the stall is a common feature in many
aircraft, GA or homebuilt. As Carl pointed out, adjusting the flaps is
often a solution. I have seen this done on a couple of Cessnas. The
correct fitting of stall strips to the Europa is the recommended
procedure for taming an 'interesting' stall characteristic. Stall
strips are common to many aircraft including twins, twin jets as well.
A Falcon 20 I recently tested had a very exciting wing drop, and was
eventually sorted by adjustment of the leading edge droop.
There is nothing inherently wrong with the Europa and it certainly does
not suffer from any basic instability - it just needs to be set up
properly by an able test pilot who understands how to adjust the stall
strips.
Have you actually flown in a Europa?
regards,
Mike
Do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: BEBERRY@aol.com
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Wing drop in the stall
All the recent correspondence following the tragedy at Oshkosh seems
to point to a basic instability with the Europa. Is this inherent in the
design or due to building errors?
Trimming ailerons to achieve smooth integration with the wing profile
is dodgy and may point to a basic error in construction with one wing
having a different lift characteristic to the other. The descriptions
of other incidents such as a very sudden wing drop and incipient spin
are not asociated with any other GA or home build as far as I know.
Questions.. do people's experiences of wing drops apply generally in
the same manner or do they apply to different wings and perhaps mainly
to the foam wing?
Should there be improved ways of measuring the newly formed wing
profile before finishing?
Have any pilots flown different Europas to see if the problem is
replicated?
I have never known a severe - or even comparatively slight wing drop
in the stall, power on or off, in GA aircraft so the apparent Europa
problem is worrying and needs some more in depth investigation.
Patrick
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
No virus found in this incoming message.
28/07/2006
Message 15
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Anybody have a good condition mono XS trailer for sale.
Details and price to me off list please.
Mike
XS mono 440
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Wing drop in the stall |
In a message dated 29/07/2006 21:19:22 GMT Daylight Time,
mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com writes:
Incidentally, a wing drop at the stall is a common feature in many
aircraft, GA or homebuilt. As Carl pointed out, adjusting the flaps is often
a
solution. I have seen this done on a couple of Cessnas. The correct fitting
of
stall strips to the Europa is the recommended procedure for taming an
'interesting' stall characteristic. Stall strips are common to many aircraft
including twins, twin jets as well.
Mike - thanks for your comments - when I talked about wing drop at the stall
I was referring to the dramatic results experienced by some correspondents
e.g. violent drop and even inversion. I have relatively little Europa
experience and have not attempted deliberate stalling but have done so with other
types and wing drop has been nil or very gentle.
I shall be looking again at stall strips.
Patrick
Message 17
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| Subject: | Automatic Flaps up - Tri Gear |
Guys
I had imagined that many of you have already fitted such a system to
your Tri-gear Europas but as I've had a couple of apprciative comments,
implying that its not as common as I'd imagined, I thought I'd offer it
to any who wants it.
G-MFHI is fitted with a button that when pressed, retracts the electric
flaps to the zero stop - This is useful for cleaning up the airframe on
the ground roll out or when climbing out. This bits easy - the tricky
bit is preventing contention beteen the automatic system and the
retained manual centre off switch. The system we have fitted retracts
the flaps when the button is pressed but stops instantly if the down
button of the manual flap switch is pressed.
If anyone wants the wiring detail and a technical explanation as to how
it works, just let me know.
Regards
Peter
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