Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:08 AM - Re: Rotax crankcase cracks (Graham)
2. 02:56 AM - Re: Wing drop in the stall (josok)
3. 05:39 AM - Re: Re: Rotax crankcase cracks (Chris Beck)
4. 06:59 AM - Stalls (Karl Heindl)
5. 07:44 AM - Stalls (Bob Jacobsen)
6. 08:06 AM - Re: Stalls (Andrew Sarangan)
7. 08:54 AM - N40SH (A143) Flies (Steve Hagar)
8. 09:12 AM - Re: Re : Re: Re : wiring (nigel charles)
9. 09:24 AM - Re: Stalls (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
10. 09:44 AM - Re: Re: Wing drop in the stall (Mike Parkin)
11. 09:57 AM - Re: N40SH (A143) Flies (Simon Smith)
12. 10:00 AM - Re: Stalls (BEBERRY@aol.com)
13. 10:29 AM - Cliff and Betty Shaw remembrance ()
14. 10:39 AM - Re: N40SH (A143) Flies (danbish)
15. 10:52 AM - Re: Re: Wing drop in the stall (nigel charles)
16. 11:12 AM - Re Wing Drop in the Stall (Mike Parkin)
17. 11:55 AM - Re: Re : Re: Re : wiring (Paul McAllister)
18. 12:49 PM - Re: Re: Wing drop in the stall (Bryan Allsop)
19. 01:52 PM - mocal oil radiator (Fergus Kyle)
20. 01:53 PM - Re: Re: Wing drop in the stall (Duncan McFadyean)
21. 02:00 PM - Re: Re: Wing drop in the stall (NevEyre@aol.com)
22. 02:13 PM - Re: Cliff and Betty Shaw remembrance (NevEyre@aol.com)
23. 02:17 PM - Re: mocal oil radiator (NevEyre@aol.com)
24. 02:25 PM - Re: Stalls (karelvranken)
25. 03:37 PM - Re: Wing drop in the stall (NevEyre@aol.com)
26. 08:49 PM - Re: N40SH (A143) Flies (Paul Boulet)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax crankcase cracks |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Graham" <graham@pocock56.fsnet.co.uk>
Thanks to all who replied to my question. Interesting and reassuring.
I really should have started a new thread with this subject. Sorry.
Graham
Do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 12:00 PM
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Graham" <graham@pocock56.fsnet.co.uk>
>
> As a regular reader of the list am I alone in thinking that the Rotax
> engines 912, 912S (and 914 which I am not considering for my aircraft)
> are beginning to show up an lot of problems?
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | RE: Wing drop in the stall |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
Sorry to drag on with this subject, but questions remain.
My limited experience on the Europa are one test flight with Andy on the GBXS before
i even had a PPL. Power off stall was easy, heavy buffeting and a very gentle
wing drop on further slowdown. The next stalls were on 2 Classics that came
to visit my home airport. Both dropped the left wing without any warning but
the stall warners and violently, and frightened the hell out of me. Last time,
last day day for Andy at the factory, Andy was test flying the demonstrator
and i was writing down the numbers, same benign stall pattern. Now the questions:
:-) Are the Classics more prone to wing drop? Do XS wings have the same
behavior? Could a minor tolerance between the wing setup (angle of attack, sweep)
be a cause of wing drop in stall? Do i understand correctly that stall strips
are spoiling the good wing to the same quality as the bad wing? In what
class are the speed penalties involved?
Kind Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
----------------
Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax crankcase cracks |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Chris Beck <n9zes@verizon.net>
====================
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Graham" <graham@pocock56.fsnet.co.uk>
Thanks to all who replied to my question. Interesting and reassuring.
I really should have started a new thread with this subject. Sorry.
Graham
---> I've been thinking about this issue a bit. If you really sit and think about
it, the Rotax engines, aside from a few minor common issues (rubber parts,
regulator, etc.) are really remarkably robust and reliable. The 912S starting
problem has largely been resolved.
On the flip side, recall back through history all the major problems both Lycoming
and Continental have had with various engines through the years? Lyc. O-320H2AD
anyone? Continental O-200 (or any small Continental) that have a hard
time going 500 hrs. between top overhauls? Lycoming camshaft spalling problems
across the product line? Big bore Continentals with head cracking issues?
How many Europas (or other Rotax powered A/C) have had to make off-field landings
due to engine failure? The consensus I've heard is that if you can get the
Rotax running, it will get you to your destination almost no matter what.
Chris
A159
Message 4
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Karl Heindl" <kheindl@msn.com>
Apart from being extremely saddened by Cliff's death I guess we are all also
very puzzled by the whole accident sequence. We may never know the causes
leading up to the stall unless something entirely new comes to light from
the autopsy or the aircraft wreck.
I always thought that wings were designed to stall first at the root in
order to maintain aileron control a little bit longer. It seems that some
Europa wings stall completely at the same instance.
I am sure that Don Dykens or Andy would be able to elaborate, but they are
not speaking to us.
Now, Cliff had stall strips fitted, but were they actually in place on the
wreck ? Maybe Cliff had removed them again.
Graham S. had a similar accident but survived it fortunately. What were his
symptoms ?
I stalled once in a level climb in zero horizontal visibility. I remember a
slight shaking of the stick and put the nose down a bit. But it was already
too late, as I was now vertical in an incipient spin. I could make out the
farm fields in front of my nose. Luckily, I was at 4000 feet and recovered
very swiftly. I did not have a stall warner, but have now installed the
Europa kit, and am still calibrating it.
I put the buzzer on the 'shelf' between the camel humps and find it clearly
audible through my ANR headset. Also, it is powered by a 9V battery. I am
going to put another probe into the starboard wing, as wings don't always
stall at the same time.
Karl
Message 5
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Bob Jacobsen" <jacobsenra@hotmail.com>
Guys,
I wouldn't worry to much about this.
The #1 fatal accident cause in the Cessna 150/152 is guess what - stall/spin
The #1 fatal accident cause in the Piper Tomahawk is guess what - stall/spin
Both of these airplanes are the tamest stalling things you can imagine. In
the Cessna in particular you have to work hard to even get it into a spin.
The Europa is a great design, and even Cliff's plane stalled ok - even if it
was no Cessna 150.
The stall strips were on it as of last week. Much as I would like to blame
the crash on the plane or setup, it was pilot error pure and simple - and it
was a big error. He never should have been that slow (he did that way too
often and we warned him a lot), and tried to turn in tight from a screwed up
base leg.
Many have asked me off list if AOA's or Stall warners would have helped and
I don't think they would.
I once had a friend land his swift gear up. The tower was yelling at him
over the radio to put his gear down - but he told me later he could't hear
them because the gear warning horn was too loud.
There is no substitute for good pilot skills and paying attention to flying
the plane first.
Bob Jacobsen
Message 6
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@yahoo.com>
I have a hard time believing that the entire wing stalls at the same
time. That would be a serious design flaw. This is what the wash-out is
for, a small twist in the wing that gives a higher angle of attack at
the root compared to the tip.
--- Karl Heindl <kheindl@msn.com> wrote:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Karl Heindl" <kheindl@msn.com>
>
>
>
> Apart from being extremely saddened by Cliff's death I guess we are
> all also
> very puzzled by the whole accident sequence. We may never know the
> causes
> leading up to the stall unless something entirely new comes to light
> from
> the autopsy or the aircraft wreck.
> I always thought that wings were designed to stall first at the root
> in
> order to maintain aileron control a little bit longer. It seems that
> some
> Europa wings stall completely at the same instance.
> I am sure that Don Dykens or Andy would be able to elaborate, but
> they are
> not speaking to us.
> Now, Cliff had stall strips fitted, but were they actually in place
> on the
> wreck ? Maybe Cliff had removed them again.
> Graham S. had a similar accident but survived it fortunately. What
> were his
> symptoms ?
> I stalled once in a level climb in zero horizontal visibility. I
> remember a
> slight shaking of the stick and put the nose down a bit. But it was
> already
> too late, as I was now vertical in an incipient spin. I could make
> out the
> farm fields in front of my nose. Luckily, I was at 4000 feet and
> recovered
> very swiftly. I did not have a stall warner, but have now installed
> the
> Europa kit, and am still calibrating it.
> I put the buzzer on the 'shelf' between the camel humps and find it
> clearly
> audible through my ANR headset. Also, it is powered by a 9V battery.
> I am
> going to put another probe into the starboard wing, as wings don't
> always
> stall at the same time.
>
> Karl
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | N40SH (A143) Flies |
N40SH with a 914 and an Airmaster prop took to the air at Gateway Airport under
the capable and skillful hands of Bob Lindsay. The plane works as advertized.
Bob noted that it was the smoothest Rotax he has flown behind yet. This
is no doubt due to the good job that Phoenix Conposites did balancing the
prop and my experience I had in balancing the Bings on my old BMW Paris-Dakar
with my murcury manometers, It must be the hazardous material in the tubes that
gives you just the right amount of granularity in your adjustments. The plane
is a good deal faster and more efficient than the spam cans I am used to.
We passed the Coolidge airport that usually takes 30 minutes to get to in
only about 20 minutes. I didn't expect it to show up so soon.
The aircraft is very stable, the wings giving a very good rumble when approaching
a clean stall is un-mistakeable. With one person aboard there is left wing
drop in a dirty stall at about 40 kts. Though not much worse than I have experienced
in a certificated plane. With 2 people aboard it becomes more stable
in the dirty stall. The times I have tried it., it appeared to just burble a
bit before letting go.
The plane has been tested for flutter to Vne plus a good margin and everything
was fine and stable. Some basic aerobatic maneuvers were tested. The plane flies
like it is on rails.
All subsequent flights during the week originated from Falcon Field with me doing
my practice take offs and landings at the huge runways at Gateway Bob signed
me off to fly it by myself this Saturday, he added a 10 kt cross wind restriction
until I get some more time under my belt. I did indeed use a good deal
of the width of the 100 + ft wide runways at gateway on some of the early landings.
Excitement:
We succombed to the dreaded clogged fuel filter syndrome. This has happened
so many times. I figured I had it licked as I ran a minimum of 40 to 50 gallons
of fuel through the filters and then changed them out. The clear filter
housing was inspected before the flight also. Evidently running fuel through
them doesn't do any good unless you have the plane strapped to a paint shaker
to stir things up while sucking the gas out. Also it appears what clogs the
filter is the same color as the filter, you only see some black particles
in the filter that look benign. Its what you don't see is what kills you.
The filter decided to stop passing the correct amount of fuel at the most in
opportune time. During a touch and go after we had lifted off and were about
a hundred feet in the air and with most of the runway behind us. We probably
touched down within 10 ft of the end of the runway and headed it into the
mud and water rather than the fence along Greenfield road. The plane handles
much better in the sloppy stuff than it does on the pavement. The fire dept
took some real good pictures and the lines through the dirt are straighter
than any track of a Europa on the pavement. A very good rough field aircraft!
I will have the post about 20 photos that were taken. After talking to the
guy with the FAA badge for a few minutes. It only took a little effort to pull
it out. The reserve tank was selected and the motor started right up and
we taxied back to our spot. The aircraft was hosed off and cowlings removed
to get the stuff out of the heat exchangers and eve
ry thing was inspected. The plane was no worse for the wear. It flew the rest
of the week (Thurs, Fri, Sat) with nary a peep. Cooling was not a major
concern as expected in the Phoenix summer. Oil temps were good. CHT was close
but stayed away from 135c but not by much. I do have an air diverter between
my oil and water heat exchangers. So maybe this is telling me to bend it
toward the oil cooler more to get more air to the water.
Solution:
I need to change the fuel system. At this time I have a filter at the outlet
of each side of the tank (primary and reserve). Each one of these lines feeds
the Andair selector valve and then this goes to the two fuel pumps. There is
no redundancy here, I'm using two pumps for takeoff and landing however I'm sucking
off of one filter. The two filters need to be downstream of the selector
valve, just ahead of each pump. That way if a filter gets clogged the other
pump can take up the load through its own filter. I don't see how I missed
that item. The small filters with the replaceable elements are going away and
some larger disposable cheaper automotive types are going in their place.
Other issues:
At pattern speeds with the flaps down, carbon mon-oxide builds up in the cockpit
to a very noticable extent. We had a monitor but it wasn't needed. I need
to put some seals at the flap actuation tube slots, like I believe Dave and
Terry did. I also have a good breeze comming up through the two holes in the
console that are open where the rudder pullies are. These need to be plugged
up. I am also going to stick a small air dam 1/4" high at the back edge of each
Naca fresh air duct to see if I can get them to grab more air. I have two
through vents in the aft baggage bay D panel to open up some more to get the
air flowing out the back.
The bungies could use a little tightening after sitting for at least 3 years during
the build.
Both the fine pitch stop and the coarse pitch stop on the Airmaster need coarsening
up.
Flight instruments appear to be spot on. (I had to turn me a new static nose
piece from aluminum for the pitot tube after busting the plastic unit a day before
Bob arrived)
The plane has over 9 hours of its 40 hours flown off. The next week or two will
be used to work on the above items and to snoop around to see if I can find
a hanger to share with someone. I would think a Europa with one wing off would
fit just nicely with a high wing aircraft. Its a real pain to be toting the
plane around. I will probably fly two to three times more if I was able to
park it at an airfield.
That's it for now you'll probably see the plane at Copperstate this year. It however
will still be in primer by then.
Steve Hagar
hagargs@earthlink.net
Message 8
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" <nwcmc@tiscali.co.uk>
All I can say is that after having done an external battery start one
day I forgot to reinstate the onboard battery before disconnecting the
external power so hence the comments below.
Nigel Charles
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr
Sent: 27 July 2006 12:00
--> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr
----- Message d'origine -----
De: nigel charles <nwcmc@tiscali.co.uk>
Objet: RE: Re : Europa-List: wiring
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles"
> <nwcmc@tiscali.co.uk>
>
> >The Rotax regulator needs a definite voltage to continue providing
> power. Disconnect it, or have it fail, or run your battery down, and
> you're left with very few option to keep your engine running.<
>
> Not true. If you disconnect the battery with the engine running the
> generator continues to supply the electrical system until the revs
> dropto idle. Even then, restoring the revs above idle results in the
> generator picking up the load.
>
Hi Nigel,
We run the regulator that came with our 914 on the bench, and once
disconnected, it won't come to life if the battery is down or off line,
regardless of the RPM. This lead to a series of scenarii where we could
be left with no power.
Of course it is possible that not all Rotax regulators are the same
internally, or you found a particular mode we failed to explore in our
experiments. I would be interested in more experimental details on your
findings. I could publish them in addition to our measurements.
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 9
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" <sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no>
I believe that the reason for the unexpected, sudden wing drop even on
Europa XS with wing wash-out is that in slip/skid the outer/inner wing is
actually like a swept wing, which stalls at the tip first. This will
eliminate the wash-out effect, where the root part stalls first when flying
coordinated.
Svein
A225 - now in Norway - ground tests to continue soon
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Wing drop in the stall |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
>Are the Classics more prone to wing drop? Do XS wings have the same
>behavior? Could a minor tolerance between the wing setup (angle of
> >attack, sweep) be a cause of wing drop in stall? Do i understand correctly
>that stall strips are spoiling the good wing to the same quality as the bad
> >wing? In what class are the speed penalties involved?
Jos,
I think that the original foam built wings are likely to vary slightly more
in performance than the factory made wings purely because of the nature of
construction. Profiling the wing is a laborious process and the end result
is very much an 'eyeball dependent' operation. I think it would be fair to
say that the jig made factory wings are likely to produce a more consistent
result.
The original wings were fitted with flaps and ailerons made from foam
blocks, glass cloth and resin. Fitting the flap hinges and setting up the
correct washout was challenging and certainly not a precise science. Having
produced 2 of these labour intensive wings, the chances of each wing
exhibiting the same CL curve is unlikely at best. Combine these variables
with any tolerances in the wing to fuselage incidence and you could have
some work to do to make the aircraft behave. The very nature of the wing
seems to provide a useable amount of lift until the stall, at which point
the loss of lift from the wing seems to be almost total. Now if one wing
stalls before the other it is conceivable that the aircraft might roll on
its back.
The purpose of the stall strips is exactly as you suggest - to make the good
wing stall before it would if the stall strip was not fitted.
I think that the strip works by the nib of the strip disrupting the boundary
layer (at particulat angle of attack) on the wing downstream of the strip.
I have read somewhere that the strips can affect short field landing and
take-off performance - no doubt one of our aerodynamicists would be able to
explain - I can't remember the reason.
However, as I understand it, the stall strips have negligible effect at
higher speeds.
level busts, the subject of stabilised approaches is very topical with
training captains. All pilots should strive to establish a stabilised
approach (on calculated landing speed, on the centreline, on glidepath,
sensible power setting) by 200 - 300 ft finals. If you have not achieved
the ideal situation then consider going around and getting it right next
time. There is no loss off face by throwing away a poor approach - anyone
that thinks there is, is just 'flying towards the scene of his own
accident'. All pilots should know when to throw it away - and particularly
with inexperienced or non-current pilots - it should be sooner rather than
later.
Remember the old fighter pilot saying - height is might and speed is life.
All the best, and safe flying.
regards,
Mike
Message 11
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| Subject: | N40SH (A143) Flies |
Firstly congratulations on your first flight.
The pump filter layout has changed over the last few years and the
latest
version is at
http://www.europa-aircraft.biz/pdfs/xs914%20may%2006.vp.pdf
pages 5-3 and 5-4. What might not be obvious from these diagrams is
that
the system favors using the filter on the inlet to pump 1 even if both
pumps
are in use. The second filter then acts as a back up should the first
become blocked. During my flight test period (strongly recommended by
Nev )
I swapped out/cleaned the filters after every flight. After 5 hrs I now
see
a little bit of crud in filter 1 after each flight and none in #2. I
will
continue until both run clean.
Have fun!
Simon
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Hagar
Sent: 31 July 2006 16:56
N40SH with a 914 and an Airmaster prop took to the air at Gateway
Airport
under the capable and skillful hands of Bob Lindsay. The plane works as
advertized. Bob noted that it was the smoothest Rotax he has flown
behind
yet. This is no doubt due to the good job that Phoenix Conposites
did
balancing the prop and my experience I had in balancing the Bings on my
old
BMW Paris-Dakar with my murcury manometers, It must be the hazardous
material in the tubes that gives you just the right amount of
granularity
in your adjustments. The plane is a good deal faster and more efficient
than
the spam cans I am used to. We passed the Coolidge airport that
usually
takes 30 minutes to get to in only about 20 minutes. I didn't expect it
to
show up so soon.
The aircraft is very stable, the wings giving a very good rumble when
approaching a clean stall is un-mistakeable. With one person aboard
there
is left wing drop in a dirty stall at about 40 kts. Though not much
worse
than I have experienced in a certificated plane. With 2 people aboard
it
becomes more stable in the dirty stall. The times I have tried it., it
appeared to just burble a bit before letting go.
The plane has been tested for flutter to Vne plus a good margin and
everything was fine and stable. Some basic aerobatic maneuvers were
tested.
The plane flies like it is on rails.
All subsequent flights during the week originated from Falcon Field with
me
doing my practice take offs and landings at the huge runways at Gateway
Bob
signed me off to fly it by myself this Saturday, he added a 10 kt cross
wind restriction until I get some more time under my belt. I did indeed
use
a good deal of the width of the 100 + ft wide runways at gateway on some
of
the early landings.
Excitement:
We succombed to the dreaded clogged fuel filter syndrome. This has
happened so many times. I figured I had it licked as I ran a minimum
of 40
to 50 gallons of fuel through the filters and then changed them out.
The
clear filter housing was inspected before the flight also. Evidently
running fuel through them doesn't do any good unless you have the plane
strapped to a paint shaker to stir things up while sucking the gas out.
Also it appears what clogs the filter is the same color as the filter,
you
only see some black particles in the filter that look benign. Its what
you
don't see is what kills you.
The filter decided to stop passing the correct amount of fuel at the
most
in opportune time. During a touch and go after we had lifted off and
were
about a hundred feet in the air and with most of the runway behind us.
We
probably touched down within 10 ft of the end of the runway and headed
it
into the mud and water rather than the fence along Greenfield road.
The
plane handles much better in the sloppy stuff than it does on the
pavement.
The fire dept took some real good pictures and the lines through the
dirt
are straighter than any track of a Europa on the pavement. A very good
rough field aircraft! I will have the post about 20 photos that were
taken.
After talking to the guy with the FAA badge for a few minutes. It only
took a little effort to pull it out. The reserve tank was selected and
the
motor started ri ght up and we taxied back to our spot. The aircraft
was
hosed off and cowlings removed to get the stuff out of the heat
exchangers
and every thing was inspected. The plane was no worse for the wear.
It
flew the rest of the week (Thurs, Fri, Sat) with nary a peep. Cooling
was
not a major concern as expected in the Phoenix summer. Oil temps were
good. CHT was close but stayed away from 135c but not by much. I do
have
an air diverter between my oil and water heat exchangers. So maybe
this is
telling me to bend it toward the oil cooler more to get more air to the
water.
Solution:
I need to change the fuel system. At this time I have a filter at the
outlet of each side of the tank (primary and reserve). Each one of these
lines feeds the Andair selector valve and then this goes to the two
fuel
pumps. There is no redundancy here, I'm using two pumps for takeoff and
landing however I'm sucking off of one filter. The two filters need to
be
downstream of the selector valve, just ahead of each pump. That way if
a
filter gets clogged the other pump can take up the load through its own
filter. I don't see how I missed that item. The small filters with the
replaceable elements are going away and some larger disposable cheaper
automotive types are going in their place.
Other issues:
At pattern speeds with the flaps down, carbon mon-oxide builds up in
the
cockpit to a very noticable extent. We had a monitor but it wasn't
needed.
I need to put some seals at the flap actuation tube slots, like I
believe
Dave and Terry did. I also have a good breeze comming up through the
two
holes in the console that are open where the rudder pullies are. These
need
to be plugged up. I am also going to stick a small air dam 1/4" high at
the
back edge of each Naca fresh air duct to see if I can get them to grab
more
air. I have two through vents in the aft baggage bay D panel to open
up
some more to get the air flowing out the back.
The bungies could use a little tightening after sitting for at least 3
years
during the build.
Both the fine pitch stop and the coarse pitch stop on the Airmaster
need
coarsening up.
Flight instruments appear to be spot on. (I had to turn me a new
static
nose piece from aluminum for the pitot tube after busting the plastic
unit a
day before Bob arrived)
The plane has over 9 hours of its 40 hours flown off. The next week or
two
will be used to work on the above items and to snoop around to see if I
can
find a hanger to share with someone. I would think a Europa with one
wing
off would fit just nicely with a high wing aircraft. Its a real pain to
be
toting the plane around. I will probably fly two to three times more if
I
was able to park it at an airfield.
That's it for now you'll probably see the plane at Copperstate this
year.
It however will still be in primer by then.
Steve Hagar
hagargs@earthlink.net
Message 12
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In a message dated 30/07/2006 17:25:52 GMT Daylight Time,
sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no writes:
I believe that the reason for the unexpected, sudden wing drop even on
Europa XS with wing wash-out is that in slip/skid the outer/inner wing is
actually like a swept wing, which stalls at the tip first. This will
eliminate the wash-out effect, where the root part stalls first when flying
coordinated.
Good point Svein - curiously a swept wing is more stable laterally than a
'straight ' wing at flying speeds, for much the same reasons.
Patrick
Message 13
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| Subject: | Cliff and Betty Shaw remembrance |
--> Europa-List message posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
What ideas / opinions about having Steve (he is more than willing) to put
up an area on Europa Owners forum where letters, thoughts, comments,
pictures etc. about the Shaw's could be stored?
Once compiled, a Tribute/Memorial/Remembrance CD could be sent to family
Members.
I think such a effort and compliment would be a mini long term comfort to
family and friends.
Other ideas:
Compile a mini Business card style Tribute/Memorial/Remembrance CD
http://www.4imprint.com/Recordable-Business-Card-CDs-Screened/EXEC/DETAIL/FROMPRODUCTGROUP/~SKU003817/~CA3817.htm
and distribute to members of Europa Club with newsletter?
Bob Jacobsen deserves Honorable mention for providing details. Don't
forget the Shaw's were close friends! If you were in such a
situation.............
Ron Parigoris
Message 14
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| Subject: | RE: N40SH (A143) Flies |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "danbish" <n914rb@earthlink.net>
Steve,
Great News! Congratulations on the first flights! I'm sure you're broke out in
"the grin" for sure. Gary and I were just up at Oshkosh and wondering when the
big event would be. Since you've gotten A143 in the air, I guess I'll have to
redouble my efforts and get A144 up there soon!
Ordered my prop at OSH (Airmaster) and putting the final touches on my panel decisions.
I'm going to rework my fuel system some now after hearing about your
problem. I had gone with the filters in the seat pan like you but will now put
some back at the pumps as suggested. Since I have them in the seat pans already,
do you see an problem leaving them there and adding two in the back?? Probably
overkill....
I plan to make a trip up in late August so maybe we can plan to get together. All
the best and have fun flying those hours off. I know you've put heart and soul
into it for the last 4+ years so you deserve some fun. It's a beautiful plane.
All the best and happy flying,
Dan
----------------
Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Wing drop in the stall |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" <nwcmc@tiscali.co.uk>
I don't know but they certainly increase stall speed so there is no gain
without pain. My Europa only seems to exhibit significant wing drop in
an accelerated stall. I was therefore able to just fit a stall warner
rather than stall strips as well avoiding raising the stall speed.
Nigel Charles
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andrew
Sarangan
Sent: 29 July 2006 19:59
--> Europa-List message posted by: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan@yahoo.com>
Anyone know how much extra drag the stall strips add?
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re Wing Drop in the Stall |
>Are the Classics more prone to wing drop? Do XS wings have the same
>behavior? Could a minor tolerance between the wing setup (angle of
> >attack, sweep) be a cause of wing drop in stall? Do i understand
correctly
>that stall strips are spoiling the good wing to the same quality as the
bad
> >wing? In what class are the speed penalties involved?
Jos,
I think that the original foam built wings are likely to vary slightly
more
in performance than the factory made wings purely because of the nature
of
construction. Profiling the wing is a laborious process and the end
result
is very much an 'eyeball dependent' operation. I think it would be fair
to
say that the jig made factory wings are likely to produce a more
consistent
result.
The original wings were fitted with flaps and ailerons made from foam
blocks, glass cloth and resin. Fitting the flap hinges and setting up
the
correct washout was challenging and certainly not a precise science.
Having
produced 2 of these labour intensive wings, the chances of each wing
exhibiting the same CL curve is unlikely at best. Combine these
variables
with any tolerances in the wing to fuselage incidence and you could have
some work to do to make the aircraft behave. The very nature of the
wing
seems to provide a useable amount of lift until the stall, at which
point
the loss of lift from the wing seems to be almost total. Now if one
wing
stalls before the other it is conceivable that the aircraft might roll
on
its back.
The purpose of the stall strips is exactly as you suggest - to make the
good
wing stall before it would if the stall strip was not fitted.
I think that the strip works by the nib of the strip disrupting the
boundary
layer (at particulat angle of attack) on the wing downstream of the
strip.
I have read somewhere that the strips can affect short field landing and
take-off performance - no doubt one of our aerodynamicists would be able
to
explain - I can't remember the reason.
However, as I understand it, the stall strips have negligible effect at
higher speeds.
with
level busts, the subject of stabilised approaches is very topical with
training captains. All pilots should strive to establish a stabilised
approach (on calculated landing speed, on the centreline, on glidepath,
sensible power setting) by 200 - 300 ft finals. If you have not
achieved
the ideal situation then consider going around and getting it right next
time. There is no loss off face by throwing away a poor approach -
anyone
that thinks there is, is just 'flying towards the scene of his own
accident'. All pilots should know when to throw it away - and
particularly
with inexperienced or non-current pilots - it should be sooner rather
than
later.
Remember the old fighter pilot saying - height is might and speed is
life.
All the best, and safe flying.
regards,
Mike
Message 17
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
Nigel, Gilles
I have had the same experience as Nigel during systems failure mode check
outs. Once the regulator was excited it continued to run.
I suspect that there might be some variation between regulators that account
for this. Actually (touch wood) my regulator has 470 hours / 2.5 years on
it and so far it is holding up well. I am hoping that a combination of a
modest load and a cool location is going to keep it that way.
Regards, Paul
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of nigel
charles
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 11:11 AM
--> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" <nwcmc@tiscali.co.uk>
All I can say is that after having done an external battery start one
day I forgot to reinstate the onboard battery before disconnecting the
external power so hence the comments below.
Nigel Charles
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr
Sent: 27 July 2006 12:00
--> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr
----- Message d'origine -----
De: nigel charles <nwcmc@tiscali.co.uk>
Objet: RE: Re : Europa-List: wiring
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles"
> <nwcmc@tiscali.co.uk>
>
> >The Rotax regulator needs a definite voltage to continue providing
> power. Disconnect it, or have it fail, or run your battery down, and
> you're left with very few option to keep your engine running.<
>
> Not true. If you disconnect the battery with the engine running the
> generator continues to supply the electrical system until the revs
> dropto idle. Even then, restoring the revs above idle results in the
> generator picking up the load.
>
Hi Nigel,
We run the regulator that came with our 914 on the bench, and once
disconnected, it won't come to life if the battery is down or off line,
regardless of the RPM. This lead to a series of scenarii where we could
be left with no power.
Of course it is possible that not all Rotax regulators are the same
internally, or you found a particular mode we failed to explore in our
experiments. I would be interested in more experimental details on your
findings. I could publish them in addition to our measurements.
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Wing drop in the stall |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Bryan Allsop" <bryan@blackballclub.com>
Regarding your question. "do XS wings have the same behaviour?"
In 1998 I had my free demonstration flight prior to purchasing my kit (360).
Ivan was the demo pilot for the day. Interestingly, he told me that mine was
the sixth kit purchase of the day, but that is beside the point.
It so happened that it was the first week of selling the XS instead of the
Classic as it bacame known. Ivan was really keen to show the benign nature
of the stal characteristics with the XS wing. He set the airspeed to stall
with power on, and with hands off he allowed the aircraft fly on just using
rudder. amazingly it flew level, nodding it's way through stall and
recovery, as he gently navigated in gentle turns just using rudder. He did
this with and without flap.
Try that with a Cessna!......No don't! In fact he did advise me not to try
it myself.
I was completely sold. Subsequent experience over the last six years has
confirmed the stall qualities of the XS to me. I stall it frequently for the
fun of it and the practice. I can honestly say that I have never had a wing
drop, and I can fly in the stall condition, but I would not attempt any
turns whilst doing it.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 10:54 AM
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "josok" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
>
> Sorry to drag on with this subject, but questions remain.
> My limited experience on the Europa are one test flight with Andy on the
> GBXS before i even had a PPL. Power off stall was easy, heavy buffeting
> and a very gentle wing drop on further slowdown. The next stalls were on 2
> Classics that came to visit my home airport. Both dropped the left wing
> without any warning but the stall warners and violently, and frightened
> the hell out of me. Last time, last day day for Andy at the factory, Andy
> was test flying the demonstrator and i was writing down the numbers, same
> benign stall pattern. Now the questions: :-) Are the Classics more prone
> to wing drop? Do XS wings have the same behavior? Could a minor
> tolerance between the wing setup (angle of attack, sweep) be a cause of
> wing drop in stall? Do i understand correctly that stall strips are
> spoiling the good wing to the same quality as the bad wing? In what class
> are the speed penalties involved?
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Jos Okhuijsen
> ----------------
> Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | mocal oil radiator |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Is any one using any other BSP 1/2nch `push-on` fittings than those
provided in the Europa kit? I have need of 45deg fitting to attach to oil
cooler because of local restricion. and wonder if anyone else has
substituted them - and whither the source?
While I`m begging, have you used any material with the fittings onto the
cooler, or is it just straight metal-to-metal?
Cheers,
Ferg Kyle
Europa A064 914 Classic
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Wing drop in the stall |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" <ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk>
Mine will do that with a Classic wing, but with power OFF (and it helps if
the
CG is well forward)!
But then the Classic has more washout.
However, if some rudder is booted in or if in turbulent conditions, then the
effect is very much like that of a Tomahawk i.e spin entry, which can then
be controlled very quickly (if it is has been anticipated!!).
Duncan McF.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 8:46 PM
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Bryan Allsop"
> <bryan@blackballclub.com>
the benign nature
> of the stal characteristics with the XS wing. He set the airspeed to stall
> with power on, and with hands off he allowed the aircraft fly on just
> using rudder. amazingly it flew level, nodding it's way through stall and
> recovery, as he gently navigated in gentle turns just using rudder. He did
> this with and without flap.
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Wing drop in the stall |
In a message dated 30/07/2006 21:54:43 GMT Standard Time,
ami@mcfadyean.freeserve.co.uk writes:
But then the Classic has more washout.
The Classic had 1.5 degree washout, the XS HAS 2.5 DEGREES WASHOUT
Cheers,
Nev.
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Cliff and Betty Shaw remembrance |
Hi All,
I sent a private email to Bob Jacobsen, for him to run this idea past the
Shaw family.....
During the Funeral ceremony, at a pre-determined time [ Zulu, so we all are
aware of the same moment in time] there is a one minute silence, so we can all
stop whatever we are doing, and and think of the passing of Cliff and
Betty.........
If this is not what the Family want, we could do something on our own,
perhaps at the P.F.A. Rally, at the end of the Europa Club AGM, we could have
a
minutes silence, again, if it was set at a specific time,all the Europa
community, wherever in the world they might be, could stop for that same minute......
Nev.
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: mocal oil radiator |
In a message dated 30/07/2006 21:53:35 GMT Standard Time, VE3LVO@rac.ca
writes:
Is any one using any other BSP 1/2=ECnch `push-on` fittings than those
provided in the Europa kit? I have need of 45deg fitting to attach to oil
cooler because of local restricion. and wonder if anyone else has
substituted them - and whither the source?
While I`m begging, have you used any material with the fittings onto the
cooler, or is it just straight metal-to-metal?
Hi Ferg,
Think Automotive, at Twickenham, Middlesex, UK will have the fittings, I ca
n
get you one, and post it if you want ?
Oil the taper and threads, don't use any '' goo '' !
Cheers,
Nev.
Message 24
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "karelvranken" <karelvranken@hotmail.com>
Thank you Bob, that's what I was waiting for. And I fly since 1959 even
though I try to be humble.
Karel Vranken
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 4:41 PM
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Wing drop in the stall |
In a message dated 29/07/2006 09:35:07 GMT Standard Time, BEBERRY@aol.com
writes:
I have never known a severe - or even comparatively slight wing drop in the
stall, power on or off, in GA aircraft so the apparent Europa problem is
worrying and needs some more in depth investigation.
Patrick
Hi Patrick,
There is no problem with the DESIGN of the Europa, but each individual
aircraft needs to be test flown, and individually set up with regard to any stall
strip fitment / adjustment.
For your information / peace of mind, I was involved with the test flights
of the Europa you have purchased, and although it may look like a piece of
s**t, it is very light, and true, and the stall [ or rather , lack of,] is one
of
the most benign I have experienced. Power on stalls just do not happen,
unless you are totally asleep, at full throttle, [ 100 percent ] stick fully
back, it just ''nods'' and maintains height. I have flown a full circuit at
Wombleton [ at 3000 ' ] at full power / stick full aft, keep the ball in the
middle and your eye on the temps...... you could do that all day........ power
off was equally a non event, nose falls through 20 degrees / lose 50 feet.
Enjoy.......
Cheers,
Nev.
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: N40SH (A143) Flies |
Thanks for the details Steve and congrats. My only two cents is that the disposable
fuel filter you're speaking of needs to be a high pressure one- the cheap
glass see thru ones won't suffice. Take a look at high performance racing type
fuel filters.
Take care,
Paul Boulet, N914PB
testing after monowheel to tri gear conversion
----- Original Message ----
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 8:55:55 AM
N40SH with a 914 and an Airmaster prop took to the air at Gateway Airport under
the capable and skillful hands of Bob Lindsay. The plane works as advertized.
Bob noted that it was the smoothest Rotax he has flown behind yet. This
is no doubt due to the good job that Phoenix Conposites did balancing the
prop and my experience I had in balancing the Bings on my old BMW Paris-Dakar
with my murcury manometers, It must be the hazardous material in the tubes that
gives you just the right amount of granularity in your adjustments. The plane
is a good deal faster and more efficient than the spam cans I am used to.
We passed the Coolidge airport that usually takes 30 minutes to get to in
only about 20 minutes. I didn't expect it to show up so soon.
The aircraft is very stable, the wings giving a very good rumble when approaching
a clean stall is un-mistakeable. With one person aboard there is left wing
drop in a dirty stall at about 40 kts. Though not much worse than I have experienced
in a certificated plane. With 2 people aboard it becomes more stable
in the dirty stall. The times I have tried it., it appeared to just burble
a bit before letting go.
The plane has been tested for flutter to Vne plus a good margin and everything
was fine and stable. Some basic aerobatic maneuvers were tested. The plane
flies like it is on rails.
All subsequent flights during the week originated from Falcon Field with me doing
my practice take offs and landings at the huge runways at Gateway Bob signed
me off to fly it by myself this Saturday, he added a 10 kt cross wind restriction
until I get some more time under my belt. I did indeed use a good deal
of the width of the 100 + ft wide runways at gateway on some of the early
landings.
Excitement:
We succombed to the dreaded clogged fuel filter syndrome. This has happened
so many times. I figured I had it licked as I ran a minimum of 40 to 50 gallons
of fuel through the filters and then changed them out. The clear filter
housing was inspected before the flight also. Evidently running fuel through
them doesn't do any good unless you have the plane strapped to a paint shaker
to stir things up while sucking the gas out. Also it appears what clogs
the filter is the same color as the filter, you only see some black particles
in the filter that look benign. Its what you don't see is what kills you.
The filter decided to stop passing the correct amount of fuel at the most in
opportune time. During a touch and go after we had lifted off and were about
a hundred feet in the air and with most of the runway behind us. We probably
touched down within 10 ft of the end of the runway and headed it into the
mud and water rather than the fence along Greenfield road. The plane handles
much better in the sloppy stuff than it does on the pavement. The fire dept
took some real good pictures and the lines through the dirt are straighter
than any track of a Europa on the pavement. A very good rough field aircraft!
I will have the post about 20 photos that were taken. After talking to the
guy with the FAA badge for a few minutes. It only took a little effort to
pull it out. The reserve tank was selected and the motor started ri ght up
and we taxied back to our spot. The aircraft was hosed off and cowlings removed
to get the stuff out of the heat exchangers and
every thing was inspected. The plane was no worse for the wear. It flew the
rest of the week (Thurs, Fri, Sat) with nary a peep. Cooling was not a major
concern as expected in the Phoenix summer. Oil temps were good. CHT was
close but stayed away from 135c but not by much. I do have an air diverter between
my oil and water heat exchangers. So maybe this is telling me to bend
it toward the oil cooler more to get more air to the water.
Solution:
I need to change the fuel system. At this time I have a filter at the outlet
of each side of the tank (primary and reserve). Each one of these lines feeds
the Andair selector valve and then this goes to the two fuel pumps. There is
no redundancy here, I'm using two pumps for takeoff and landing however I'm
sucking off of one filter. The two filters need to be downstream of the selector
valve, just ahead of each pump. That way if a filter gets clogged the other
pump can take up the load through its own filter. I don't see how I missed
that item. The small filters with the replaceable elements are going away
and some larger disposable cheaper automotive types are going in their place.
Other issues:
At pattern speeds with the flaps down, carbon mon-oxide builds up in the cockpit
to a very noticable extent. We had a monitor but it wasn't needed. I need
to put some seals at the flap actuation tube slots, like I believe Dave and
Terry did. I also have a good breeze comming up through the two holes in the
console that are open where the rudder pullies are. These need to be plugged
up. I am also going to stick a small air dam 1/4" high at the back edge of each
Naca fresh air duct to see if I can get them to grab more air. I have two
through vents in the aft baggage bay D panel to open up some more to get the
air flowing out the back.
The bungies could use a little tightening after sitting for at least 3 years during
the build.
Both the fine pitch stop and the coarse pitch stop on the Airmaster need coarsening
up.
Flight instruments appear to be spot on. (I had to turn me a new static nose
piece from aluminum for the pitot tube after busting the plastic unit a day before
Bob arrived)
The plane has over 9 hours of its 40 hours flown off. The next week or two will
be used to work on the above items and to snoop around to see if I can find
a hanger to share with someone. I would think a Europa with one wing off would
fit just nicely with a high wing aircraft. Its a real pain to be toting
the plane around. I will probably fly two to three times more if I was able to
park it at an airfield.
That's it for now you'll probably see the plane at Copperstate this year. It
however will still be in primer by then.
Steve Hagar
hagargs@earthlink.net
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