Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:10 AM - FW: Oshkosh Accident (Mike Gregory)
2. 01:59 AM - Re: FW: Oshkosh Accident (BEBERRY@aol.com)
3. 03:40 AM - Upside down Europa (Richard Iddon)
4. 03:52 AM - Re: FW: Oshkosh Accident (nigel charles)
5. 04:15 AM - Re : Upside down Europa (Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr)
6. 04:28 AM - Re: FW: Oshkosh Accident (Trevpond@aol.com)
7. 05:12 AM - Re: FW: Oshkosh Accident (BEBERRY@aol.com)
8. 12:49 PM - Re: Upside down Europa (Bryan Allsop)
9. 04:02 PM - stalls & spins (Graham Singleton)
10. 04:03 PM - Re: Upside down Europa (Richard Iddon)
11. 11:26 PM - Anyone have fuel lines inside cockpit by pilot? ()
12. 11:31 PM - Official Europa-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
13. 11:38 PM - Official Europa-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | FW: Oshkosh Accident |
In the week or so that has elapsed since the tragic loss of Cliff and Betty
Shaw in their Europa at Oshkosh, in addition to the many expressions of
grief and sympathy which we all share, there have been many postings on this
list regarding the handling characteristics of the aircraft and their
possible contribution to the crash. Some of the posts might be regarded as
scaremongering, and the Europa Club Committee feels it is appropriate to
examine the aspects that might have a bearing on flight safety so that we
all may learn something from the collective thoughts that have followed this
tragedy.
that the aircraft stalled on final approach and appeared to hit the ground
inverted. We do not wish to speculate as to the possibility of pilot
incapacitation or mechanical failure - this is properly left to the NTSB
investigation and their final report - but we have reviewed the design,
build and operation of Europa in the context of a stall/spin accident and
would like to share the following thoughts with the aim of helping others to
think in a way that may help to prevent future accidents.
The handling of the Europa in flight is general regarded as being superior
to many other light aircraft, including certified GA aircraft, and we would
not wish people to gain the impression that its response near and at the
stall was particularly dangerous. Many aircraft will drop a wing at the
stall, especially if the slip ball is not in the centre, and some homebuilt
aircraft may exaggerate this tendency if there is a significant inaccuracy
in build.
When referring to measures used in preventing accidents, airline people use
the analogy of 'layers'. All these 'layers' are like slices of cheese with
holes in them. The potential accident is trying to find its way through and
occasionally it finds a hole in a layer of cheese. Provided the layers of
cheese have few enough holes and there are enough layers and the holes don't
line up, the potential accident should not become a reality. Layers can be
anything from pilot training and aircraft design right through engineering
practices and construction skills to pilot skill and coping with workload.
This helps us move away from scape-goating and looking at ways of either
adding extra layers or reducing the holes in layers. In the present
situation the following layers come to mind:
Design - We believe this was both professional and sound. We were lucky to
have someone as knowledgeable as Don Dykins. If there had been a fundamental
design problem it would have been identified before now.
Construction - Without doubt there are bigger differences in construction of
Classics rather than XS Europas. In both cases accurately setting up
identical angles of incidence and identical flap positions between wings is
every bit as important as aiming for the specified numbers. To ensure the
washout is at least as much as that intended aileron droop should be
avoided. If necessary both ailerons should be a little raised in straight
and level flight. This is generally easier to arrange as the balance weight
clearances from the top wing surface can be a problem if there is any droop.
Pilot training - Whilst monowheels need specific skills for take-off and
landing, stalls and the handling skills required should be no more demanding
than any other aircraft type.
Test Flying - Where possible this should be done by someone with significant
Europa experience on many different aircraft. Also to avoid conflict of
interest at least some test flying should be done by someone with experience
who is not the owner. Where any unusual stall handling is observed this
should be addressed before the aircraft receives its permit. Whether stalls
trips and/or stall warners are used there should be no problem identifying
the impending stall at least 5 to 7kts above the stall. As parts can move
slightly (for instance due to wear) any changes of stall handling during
annual flight tests should be addressed without delay.
Pilot skills - Practice identifying the approaching stall and carrying out
the stall recovery with minimum height loss regularly. Be sure to include
stalls with gear and flap down as well as clean and practice identifying
stalls in the turn. Obviously this should be done at a safe height. Always
fly the aircraft in balanced flight (ie not cross controlled) unless you
have significant excess speed above the stall. When flying in a high
workload environment keep to as standard a pattern as possible. Outside
distractions such as many other aircraft at an airshow or landing at a
difficult strip or landing in bad weather must not prevent accurate control
of speed and flightpath. We know this has led to landing with gear retracted
in monowheels so stalling on base leg or on finals is just as possible in
these situations. As they say Aviate - Navigate - Communicate. Another adage
we use in the airline world is Plane - Path - People. These help you
prioritise your tasks. Do not feel pressurised to continue an approach if
things are not right.
Finally, whilst on the topic of adages, there are two more which come to
mind:
The superior pilot uses his superior knowledge to avoid using his superior
skill.
There are old pilots and bold pilots but no old bold pilots.
We hope this very sad event has helped the rest of us take on board how
suddenly things can change when we are least expecting it.
Fly safely
Mike Gregory
Europa Club Safety Officer
safety@europaclub.org.uk
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: FW: Oshkosh Accident |
Mike Gregory's notes are well made.
One point needs comment - flying cross controlled. I have been in the habit
of deliberately doing this in strongish crosswinds ( say 12 Knots +) in a
Cherokee but have not attempted this in a Europa.
There have always, as far as I know, been two recommended ways of flying
cross wind approaches i.e. fly the centre line with rudder - with nose into wind
, and kick straight just before touch down or.. fly straight down the centre
line with into wind aileron and opposite rudder, thus keeping the nose in line
with the runway and 'into wind 'wing low.
Recent comments about flying cross controlled appear to show that this
latter method may not be a good idea.
Comments?
Patrick
Message 3
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| Subject: | Upside down Europa |
I regularly practice stalling but up to now have generally only done so
when fairly straight and level. With all the discussion about stalling
in the turn, I thought I would have a go yesterday. Climbed to about
5000ft. and tried stalling in various configurations. Flaps down I
couldn't really get the aircraft to drop a wing although I didn't put in
a lot of rudder. However, stalling clean with the aircraft balanced and
about 20/30 degrees of bank, the wing dropped violently and the rotation
continued until I very rapidly found myself completely inverted.
Cushions, maps etc. all over the place. The aircraft pulled out without
any problem (not quite sure which way as I was somewhat disoriented) but
I lost somewhere over 500 foot in the process.
A salutary lesson and will certainly make me think hard about
maintaining airspeed and being careful in turns nearer to the ground.
Richard Iddon G-RIXS
Message 4
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| Subject: | FW: Oshkosh Accident |
Patrick
I think the main point is that if you wish to fly cross controlled on
the approach just make sure you have plenty of margin above the wings
level stall speed. This is not just for Europas but for any aircraft. I
fly cross controlled approaches in strong cross winds with the B777 as
does the autopilot when I let it but in those conditions I would make
sure the speed remains well above the minimum. Having said that excess
speed can also be a problem going into small strips. If the conditions
are challenging you probably would not be attempting that anyway.
Nigel Charles
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BEBERRY@aol.com
Sent: 01 August 2006 09:56
Mike Gregory's notes are well made.
One point needs comment - flying cross controlled. I have been in the
habit of deliberately doing this in strongish crosswinds ( say 12 Knots
+) in a Cherokee but have not attempted this in a Europa.
There have always, as far as I know, been two recommended ways of flying
cross wind approaches i.e. fly the centre line with rudder - with nose
into wind , and kick straight just before touch down or.. fly straight
down the centre line with into wind aileron and opposite rudder, thus
keeping the nose in line with the runway and 'into wind 'wing low.
Recent comments about flying cross controlled appear to show that this
latter method may not be a good idea.
Comments?
Patrick
Message 5
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| Subject: | Upside down Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr
Flaps down I
> couldn't really get the aircraft to drop a wing although I didn't
> put in
> a lot of rudder. However, stalling clean with the aircraft
> balanced and
> about 20/30 degrees of bank, the wing dropped violently and the
> rotationcontinued until I very rapidly found myself completely
> inverted.
Hi Richard and all,
I have been reading the messages following the sad accident at Oshkosh. My thoughts
went to the family and friends.
I got the impression that some of the Europa flyers would benefit from additional
stall practice, preferably with an instructor. What compelled me to chime in
is your mention of rudder. Of course, in any attempt at intentional stalls,
the slip ball must be as centered as possible. The stall in a turn is no different
: the ball must be centered. Most light airplanes are very docile in a turn,
and many of them gently lower the upper wing at the stall, after a lot of
warning.
I would not try a stall with much rudder inputs in a non-aerobatic airplane : a
stall with rudder input is exactly what we do to spin an aircraft.
What you describe in your message looks very much like a snap (flick for the British)
entry into a spin. There is a possibility that the slip ball might have
been off-centre. It would be interesting to try again at a safe altitude, with
a knowledgeable instructor or aerobatic pilot. A the ball centered, of course.
There may be some dispersion in flight behaviour due to construction, but it is
very unlikely that the Europa have such a nasty stall characteristic.
FWIW,
Best regards,
Gilles Thesee
Aerobatics FI,
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: FW: Oshkosh Accident |
Well said Mike,
Trev Pond
Kit 598
In a message dated 01/08/2006 09:12:44 GMT Daylight Time,
m.j.gregory@talk21.com writes:
In the week or so that has elapsed since the tragic loss of Cliff and Betty
Shaw in their Europa at Oshkosh, in addition to the many expressions of gri
ef
and sympathy which we all share, there have been many postings on this list
regarding the handling characteristics of the aircraft and their possible
contribution to the crash. Some of the posts might be regarded as
scaremongering, and the Europa Club Committee feels it is appropriate to ex
amine the
aspects that might have a bearing on flight safety so that we all may learn
something from the collective thoughts that have followed this tragedy.
we know
that the aircraft stalled on final approach and appeared to hit the ground
inverted. We do not wish to speculate as to the possibility of pilot
incapacitation or mechanical failure =94 this is properly left to the
NTSB investigation
and their final report =94 but we have reviewed the design, build and
operation of Europa in the context of a stall/spin accident and would like
to share
the following thoughts with the aim of helping others to think in a way tha
t
may help to prevent future accidents.
The handling of the Europa in flight is general regarded as being superior
to many other light aircraft, including certified GA aircraft, and we would
not wish people to gain the impression that its response near and at the st
all
was particularly dangerous. Many aircraft will drop a wing at the stall,
especially if the slip ball is not in the centre, and some homebuilt aircra
ft
may exaggerate this tendency if there is a significant inaccuracy in build.
When referring to measures used in preventing accidents, airline people use
the analogy of =98layers=99. All these =98layers
=99 are like slices of cheese with
holes in them. The potential accident is trying to find its way through and
occasionally it finds a hole in a layer of cheese. Provided the layers of
cheese have few enough holes and there are enough layers and the holes don
=99t
line up, the potential accident should not become a reality. Layers can be
anything from pilot training and aircraft design right through engineering
practices and construction skills to pilot skill and coping with workload.
This
helps us move away from scape-goating and looking at ways of either adding
extra
layers or reducing the holes in layers. In the present situation the
following layers come to mind:
Design =93 We believe this was both professional and sound. We were l
ucky to
have someone as knowledgeable as Don Dykins. If there had been a fundamenta
l
design problem it would have been identified before now.
Construction =93 Without doubt there are bigger differences in constr
uction of
Classics rather than XS Europas. In both cases accurately setting up
identical angles of incidence and identical flap positions between wings is
every
bit as important as aiming for the specified numbers. To ensure the washout
is
at least as much as that intended aileron droop should be avoided. If
necessary both ailerons should be a little raised in straight and level fli
ght. This
is generally easier to arrange as the balance weight clearances from the to
p
wing surface can be a problem if there is any droop.
Pilot training =93 Whilst monowheels need specific skills for take-o
ff and
landing, stalls and the handling skills required should be no more demandin
g
than any other aircraft type.
Test Flying =93 Where possible this should be done by someone with
significant Europa experience on many different aircraft. Also to avoid con
flict of
interest at least some test flying should be done by someone with experienc
e who
is not the owner. Where any unusual stall handling is observed this should
be addressed before the aircraft receives its permit. Whether stalls trips
and/or stall warners are used there should be no problem identifying the
impending stall at least 5 to 7kts above the stall. As parts can move sligh
tly (for
instance due to wear) any changes of stall handling during annual flight
tests should be addressed without delay.
Pilot skills =93 Practice identifying the approaching stall and carr
ying out
the stall recovery with minimum height loss regularly. Be sure to include
stalls with gear and flap down as well as clean and practice identifying st
alls
in the turn. Obviously this should be done at a safe height. Always fly the
aircraft in balanced flight (ie not cross controlled) unless you have
significant excess speed above the stall. When flying in a high workload en
vironment
keep to as standard a pattern as possible. Outside distractions such as man
y
other aircraft at an airshow or landing at a difficult strip or landing in
bad weather must not prevent accurate control of speed and flightpath. We k
now
this has led to landing with gear retracted in monowheels so stalling on bas
e
leg or on finals is just as possible in these situations. As they say Aviat
e
=93 Navigate =93 Communicate. Another adage we use in the airli
ne world is
Plane - Path - People. These help you prioritise your tasks. Do not feel
pressurised to continue an approach if things are not right.
Finally, whilst on the topic of adages, there are two more which come to
mind:
The superior pilot uses his superior knowledge to avoid using his superior
skill.
There are old pilots and bold pilots but no old bold pilots.
We hope this very sad event has helped the rest of us take on board how
suddenly things can change when we are least expecting it.
Fly safely
Mike Gregory
Europa Club Safety Officer
_safety@europaclub.org.uk_ (mailto:safety@europaclub.org.uk)
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: FW: Oshkosh Accident |
In a message dated 01/08/2006 11:53:21 GMT Daylight Time,
nwcmc@tiscali.co.uk writes:
I think the main point is that if you wish to fly cross controlled on the
approach just make sure you have plenty of margin above the wings level stall
speed. This is not just for Europas but for any aircraft. I fly cross
controlled approaches in strong cross winds with the B777 as does the autopilot
when
I let it but in those conditions I would make sure the speed remains well
above the minimum. Having said that excess speed can also be a problem going
into small strips. If the conditions are challenging you probably would not be
attempting that anyway.
Nigel Charles
Thanks for the comments. As always it boils down to having a good speed
margin. I regularly use an 800 yd grass strip and never have trouble in
stopping in half the length even with 10+ knots above min approach speed.
Patrick
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Upside down Europa |
Hi Richard,
I wouldn't mind seeing you demonstrate that one on the next DOTH.
Did the aircraft really sort it self out, or did you have something to
do with it?
Best regards.
Bryan Allsop. G BYSA XS 912s MONO.
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Iddon
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 11:34 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Upside down Europa
I regularly practice stalling but up to now have generally only done
so when fairly straight and level. With all the discussion about
stalling in the turn, I thought I would have a go yesterday. Climbed to
about 5000ft. and tried stalling in various configurations. Flaps down I
couldn't really get the aircraft to drop a wing although I didn't put in
a lot of rudder. However, stalling clean with the aircraft balanced and
about 20/30 degrees of bank, the wing dropped violently and the rotation
continued until I very rapidly found myself completely inverted.
Cushions, maps etc. all over the place. The aircraft pulled out without
any problem (not quite sure which way as I was somewhat disoriented) but
I lost somewhere over 500 foot in the process.
A salutary lesson and will certainly make me think hard about
maintaining airspeed and being careful in turns nearer to the ground.
Richard Iddon G-RIXS
Message 9
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--> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
Hi All
I was greatly saddend to hear about Cliff Shaw's accident. His happened
near the ground on approach; as most of you know I have some experience
of Europa stall/spin, mine happened just after take off. In both cases
spin recovery is impossible this close to the ground, indeed partial
recovery may make things worse. You hit the ground harder.
Pete Clarke tested the spins of the original Classic prototype, G-YURO
extensively. One notable feature he found was that even after a twelve
turn spin he could let go of the controls and the aeroplane would
recover in less than two turns.
There are many GA types that are designed to be almost spin proof, this
is a mixed blessing because if it's hard to spin it will be just as hard
to stop the spin when it occurs. The Yankee was notorious and there were
several fatal accidents until intentional spinning during training was
forbidden. Remember also that very few certified or homebuilt GA types
had anything like the testing the Europa had. I remember Richard Trikle
asking Pete Clarke if he'd test the Kiss. No American pilot was prepared
to do it.
There are quite a few Classics that have a nasty wing drop flaps down.
G-KWIP was one. We had removed the stall strips because we felt we
needed the extra take off performance for farm strip flying. Ours was
around 450 meters at the time. The trouble with the Classic wing is that
it is not easy to finish the leading edge without degrading the very
subtle leading edge shape, which has a slight bump underneath and a
fairly sharp nose radius. Eventually, after much arm twisting, I got
hold of the coordinates of the airfoil and made some templates for the
leading edge. These were used on several Classics, Charlie Laverty's,
Tony Higgins' and Colin Smallwood's, I haven't heard from Tony re flying
qualities but the other two have excellent stall characteristics and so
does Trevor Jackson's, (kit no. 4!)
This illustrates the variability that Mike Parkin mentions.
Ivan did a lot of tuft testing trying to master the stalling
characterisitics and found that as long as the stall starts at the
leading edge it will be relatively progressive. However, sometimes the
stall starts at the trailing edge and then the whole upper surface
"unzips" and will cause a sharp wing drop. The stall strips help to make
the stall start at the front and at the wing root. The sharp LE radius
has a similar effect and I'm sure this is why some Classics are
unpredictable ( too large LE radius) whereas most XSs, which have a jig
moulded LE are relatively benign. (Not that I've flown many btw, so get
a second opinion!) The XS also has more washout which helps keep the
stall away from the tips.
Mike will have a much more valid opinion than me but I believe the
sensible way to monitor airspeed is by angle of attack, the instrument
tells that that your airspeed is going to change, you can correct the
changed AoA instantly and speed won't change The ASI tells you at least
20 seconds after it's changed which means you then have to regain
momentum which will take another 20 seconds or more. Another advantage
that correct AoA is not dependant on weight, so the figure for stall,
cruise max range etc all remain constant.
my 2 cents
Graham
>From: "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
>Subject: Europa-List: Re Wing Drop in the Stall
>
>
> Jos,
>
>I think that the original foam built wings are likely to vary slightly
>more
>in performance than the factory made wings purely because of the nature
>of
>construction. Profiling the wing is a laborious process and the end
>result
>is very much an 'eyeball dependent' operation. I think it would be fair
>to
>say that the jig made factory wings are likely to produce a more
>consistent
>result.
> The very nature of the
>wing
>seems to provide a useable amount of lift until the stall, at which
>point
>the loss of lift from the wing seems to be almost total. Now if one
>wing
>stalls before the other it is conceivable that the aircraft might roll
>on
>its back.
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Upside down Europa |
Bryan.
Yep. I just centred the stick and waited for something to happen that I
could recognise; i.e. nose down, speed increasing. Then I think I just
blinked a couple of times levelled the wings and pulled out. The
aircraft did most of the sorting. I guess I am just happy that it
didn't start to spin inverted as I haven't learned how to get out of
that one. Don't really want to try either.
Cheers.
Richard.
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan
Allsop
Sent: 01 August 2006 20:43
Hi Richard,
I wouldn't mind seeing you demonstrate that one on the next DOTH.
Did the aircraft really sort it self out, or did you have something to
do with it?
Best regards.
Bryan Allsop. G BYSA XS 912s MONO.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Anyone have fuel lines inside cockpit by pilot? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
I have a Monowheel with Airbrake lever installed. Both makes for less
options when running fuel lines to the engine.
My plan is to run fuel lines through some PVC plastic conduit on the port
side of the tunnel, punch into the cockpit through the pilot right side
thigh support on the fuse floor, sneak under the airbrake torque tube /
horn.
I will transition just about under the Airbrake torque tube from supplied
fuel hose to aeroquip stainless steel braided fuel hose the same diameter.
The transition will happen at 2 flowscan transducers.
Now punch through the left cockpit module flange bout 4 inches below the
roof into the engine compartment, between the footwell side and the
vertical undercarriage mounting frame tube.
Anyone done similar? Are you flying?
How did you mount hoses?
Did you cover hoses with anything?
What are the details of how you made firewall penetration?
Any pictures?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
Message 12
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| Subject: | Official Europa-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
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*****************************************************
When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message
is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the
email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor.
If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it
is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that
gets posted to the Lists.
Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important
with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook
or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be
functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM
test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List:
smith@machine.domain.com
smith@domain.com
Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure
your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to
the List.
**************************************
*** Enclosure Support on the Lists ***
**************************************
Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets
is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these
are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the
content of enclosures.
These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics
Lists:
1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists.
2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists.
3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site.
4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives.
5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature.
6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed:
bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls
All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to
sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from
a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk.
7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting
to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down
the process of posting the message !!
Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists.
1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files
you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there
are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post
30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these
folks and the rest of us, for that matter.
2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just
unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even
questionable. !!
4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members
subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting
to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and
BE COURTEOUS!
Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where
you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
for long time viewing and availability.
*******************
*** Digest Mode ***
*******************
Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started.
This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended
to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:"
and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting
of a line of underscores.
Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be
combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list.
To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form
described above, and just select the Digest version of the List.
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions
of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable.
Now some caveats:
* Messages sent to "europa-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard
email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the
digest List.
* If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you
will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of
the day.
* If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the
normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change
the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please
*do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*.
****************************
*** List Digest Browser ***
****************************
An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text
or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to
the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found
at the following location:
http://www.matronics.com/digest
*****************************************
*** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag ***
*****************************************
At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very
small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive
it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the
message:
do not archive
Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List
email distribution as normal.
**********************************************
***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes *****
**********************************************
Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced
email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly
removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving
messages from the Europa-List, go to the following Web page, and look
for your email address and a possible reason for your removal.
The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the
Lists you will find record of it at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed
If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel
free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice.
*******************************
*** List Member Information ***
*******************************
If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
smith@somehost.com
Joe Smith
123 Airport Lane
Tower, CA 91234-1234
098-765-1234 w
123-456-7890 h
Please forward this information to the following email address:
requests@matronics.com
I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
****************************************
*** Realtime Web Email List Browsing ***
****************************************
Recent messages posted to the Europa-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/europa-list
*******************************************
*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
*******************************************
A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Europa-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Europa-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* Europa-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the Europa-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* Europa-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* Europa-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* Europa-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the Europa-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* Europa-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the Europa-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the Europa-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Europa
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Europa-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Europa-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Europa-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Europa-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Official Europa-List Usage Guidelines |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Europa-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Europa-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Europa-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Europa-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Europa-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Europa-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Europa-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
Other Matronics Email List Services
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-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
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