---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/02/06: 35 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:18 AM - Re: stalls & spins (Mark Burton) 2. 06:53 AM - engine failure due to filters (kevin pownall) 3. 07:15 AM - Re: Re: stalls & spins (Andrew Sarangan) 4. 08:27 AM - Stalls & spins (Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com) 5. 08:27 AM - Re: engine failure due to filters (JEFF ROBERTS) 6. 08:58 AM - Re: Re: stalls & spins (BEBERRY@aol.com) 7. 09:33 AM - Re: Re: stalls & spins (willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk) 8. 11:01 AM - Re: Re: stalls & spins (Paddy Clarke) 9. 11:04 AM - Re: engine failure due to filters (Kenneth Whiteley) 10. 11:23 AM - Re: stalls and spins (Vaughn & Gaye Teegarden) 11. 11:45 AM - Re: engine failure due to filters (Jos Okhuijsen) 12. 11:48 AM - Stall Spin (irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu) 13. 12:02 PM - Re: engine failure due to filters (Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com) 14. 12:02 PM - Re: engine failure due to filters (Rman) 15. 12:18 PM - Re: Re: stalls and spins (Jos Okhuijsen) 16. 12:18 PM - Re: stalls & spins (Mark Burton) 17. 12:54 PM - Re: engine failure due to filters (Karl Heindl) 18. 01:30 PM - Re: engine failure due to filters (Duncan McFadyean) 19. 01:53 PM - Re: engine failure due to filters (Graeme Smith) 20. 01:53 PM - Re: Upside down Europa (Belinda Glover) 21. 02:46 PM - Misaligned turn and slip (Carl Pattinson) 22. 03:29 PM - Re: Re: stalls & spins (Carl Pattinson) 23. 03:33 PM - Re: Re: stalls & spins (Trevpond@aol.com) 24. 03:40 PM - NSI Subaru owners please read. (Belinda Glover) 25. 05:38 PM - Re: Stall Spin (Chris Beck) 26. 05:55 PM - Fly In (Jim Butcher) 27. 07:14 PM - Re: Anyone have fuel lines inside cockpit by pilot? (Steve Hagar) 28. 07:18 PM - Re: Cliff and Betty Shaw remembrance (John & Amy Eckel) 29. 07:25 PM - Re: engine failure due to filters (Steve Hagar) 30. 07:59 PM - Oshkosh by air - return by Avis (Richard Schultz) 31. 08:45 PM - Re: Re: stalls & spins (Andrew Sarangan) 32. 10:10 PM - Re: Oshkosh by air - return by Avis () 33. 10:52 PM - Re: Re: stalls & spin (David Glauser) 34. 11:00 PM - Re: Oshkosh by air - return by Avis (R.C.Harrison) 35. 11:00 PM - Re: NSI Subaru owners please read. (R.C.Harrison) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:18:21 AM PST US From: "Mark Burton" Subject: Europa-List: Re: stalls & spins --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mark Burton" Folks, graham(at)gflight.f9.co.u wrote: > > Mike will have a much more valid opinion than me but I believe the > sensible way to monitor airspeed is by angle of attack, the instrument > tells that that your airspeed is going to change, you can correct the > changed AoA instantly and speed won't change The ASI tells you at least > 20 seconds after it's changed which means you then have to regain > momentum which will take another 20 seconds or more. Another advantage > that correct AoA is not dependant on weight, so the figure for stall, > cruise max range etc all remain constant. > my 2 cents > Graham > There is much good information in Graham's message but I feel that this last paragraph is misleading. Unless your ASI is particularly sluggish, it will indicate changes in airspeed almost instantly (i.e. not 20 seconds later). What takes the time is actually changing the speed of the aircraft relative to the surrounding air. Fitting an AoA gauge does not make your aircraft accelerate any quicker! Let's imagine the situation where you are on approach and your airspeed is a little below the optimum speed (the AoA is higher than desired). Assuming you are not too low, you lower the nose to increase the speed (and reduce the AoA). As soon as the nose is lowered, the AoA will decrease and if you have an AoA gauge that will be indicated immediately. The airspeed, however, does not change straightaway (the ASI lag!!!) After a while, your airspeed will settle at the new increased value. (perhaps a kind aerodynamics person can provide us with a succinct description of what causes the airspeed to increase when the AoA is reduced). Moving the stick forward to reduce the AoA is the crucial action. Having moved the stick, the pilot then has to wait until the speed stabilises before sampling the ASI again (all gliding instructors will remember giving this demo). If the speed doesn't have to change by very much (say, < 5 kts) then the pilot doesn't have to wait very long (certainly less than 20S). The rational behind the talking ASI is that if the airspeed on approach is not far from the desired speed, then the pitch/throttle adjustments required to return to that speed are small and the time lag between making an adjustment and achieving the desired speed is small. The pilot is "nagged" into maintaining the correct airspeed through small changes in pitch/power. By nagging the pilot to maintain a sensible speed, the talking ASI not only protects against stalling, it helps you obtain the stabilised approach that Mike Parkin enthused about and is so important when operating out of small fields. I understand the benefits of flying by AoA and if someone produced a low cost, reliable, easy to fit and calibrate, AoA instrument that didn't require you to have your eyes in the cockpit on approach, I would be tempted to have one. Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51717#51717 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:00 AM PST US From: "kevin pownall" Subject: Europa-List: engine failure due to filters I was interested but not surprised to read about an early flight engine failure in the last few days. Except that I ended in a field on the second flight it mirrors my experience exactly. I put lots of fuel through before first flight ,cleaned the filters etc. When after the engine failure I inspected the filters there was nothing obviously visible to block both the filters. When I posted the problem there were lots with a similar experience. It seems to be only in the early hours of flight that the blockages happen. I put a concertina filter in and have had no more problems. My view , without proof , is that some form of fine film comes off the interior of the tank in the first few flights. The problem seems to be specific to the Europa style tank not just to fibre glass aeroplanes. No one has been killed yet . Is it possible to warn all builders now of this possibility and ban the small Europa supplied filters before someone is hurt. Kevin Pownall kevpow@iinet.net.au ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:29 AM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: stalls & spins --> Europa-List message posted by: Andrew Sarangan I don't see the ASI and the AOA as entirely different things, especialy in a small GA cockpit. The ASI can be calibrated to read angles instead of speed based on aircraft weight, like the movable outer ring that is used for calibrating TAS based on temperature. A true AOA independent of weight is useful only in large transport aircraft where the weight could vary significantly. --- Mark Burton wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mark Burton" > > Folks, > > > graham(at)gflight.f9.co.u wrote: > > > > Mike will have a much more valid opinion than me but I believe the > > sensible way to monitor airspeed is by angle of attack, the > instrument > > tells that that your airspeed is going to change, you can correct > the > > changed AoA instantly and speed won't change The ASI tells you at > least > > 20 seconds after it's changed which means you then have to regain > > momentum which will take another 20 seconds or more. Another > advantage > > that correct AoA is not dependant on weight, so the figure for > stall, > > cruise max range etc all remain constant. > > my 2 cents > > Graham > > > > > There is much good information in Graham's message but I feel that > this last paragraph is misleading. Unless your ASI is particularly > sluggish, it will indicate changes in airspeed almost instantly (i.e. > not 20 seconds later). What takes the time is actually changing the > speed of the aircraft relative to the surrounding air. Fitting an > AoA gauge does not make your aircraft accelerate any quicker! > > Let's imagine the situation where you are on approach and your > airspeed is a little below the optimum speed (the AoA is higher than > desired). Assuming you are not too low, you lower the nose to > increase the speed (and reduce the AoA). As soon as the nose is > lowered, the AoA will decrease and if you have an AoA gauge that will > be indicated immediately. The airspeed, however, does not change > straightaway (the ASI lag!!!) After a while, your airspeed will > settle at the new increased value. (perhaps a kind aerodynamics > person can provide us with a succinct description of what causes the > airspeed to increase when the AoA is reduced). > > Moving the stick forward to reduce the AoA is the crucial action. > Having moved the stick, the pilot then has to wait until the speed > stabilises before sampling the ASI again (all gliding instructors > will remember giving this demo). If the speed doesn't have to change > by very much (say, < 5 kts) then the pilot doesn't have to wait very > long (certainly less than 20S). > > The rational behind the talking ASI is that if the airspeed on > approach is not far from the desired speed, then the pitch/throttle > adjustments required to return to that speed are small and the time > lag between making an adjustment and achieving the desired speed is > small. The pilot is "nagged" into maintaining the correct airspeed > through small changes in pitch/power. > > By nagging the pilot to maintain a sensible speed, the talking ASI > not only protects against stalling, it helps you obtain the > stabilised approach that Mike Parkin enthused about and is so > important when operating out of small fields. > > I understand the benefits of flying by AoA and if someone produced a > low cost, reliable, easy to fit and calibrate, AoA instrument that > didn't require you to have your eyes in the cockpit on approach, I > would be tempted to have one. > > Mark > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51717#51717 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:27:07 AM PST US From: Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com Subject: Europa-List: Stalls & spins One useful thing about learning to fly in giders, was the constant yelling from the back seat; Keep the speed up Keep the string straight. I still miss the yaw string, the cheapest and most useful instrument made. I'm indebted to Carl for his comments on the ball. In what feels like straight and level flight, mine sits a bit to the left. My feeling was that the instrument was wrong, or that the view from the left seat was distorting my perspective, or that I'd just lost the touch for what is straight and level. Also to Mike for comments regarding the ailerons, mine are level on the ground, but seem to adopt a slight droop in cruise. Some things to look at and fix on C-FBZI Dave A061 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:27:07 AM PST US From: JEFF ROBERTS Subject: Re: Europa-List: engine failure due to filters Kevin, I have flown 27 hours off of N128LJ without a problem. I noticed a little debris collecting in the left filter so I have switched to the right side. I mounted the filters under a door in an arm rest between the seats. I can view them in flight if I want to. I will be changing them out soon but I don't think anything is wrong with the tanks. I believe their may be a fuel issue in some cases or area's. After the tanks were drilled we washed them out with a high pressure hose. No problems have been encountered yet.... as I'm Knocking on wood. Regards Jeff RMMM On Aug 2, 2006, at 8:45 AM, kevin pownall wrote: > I was interested but not surprised to read about an early flight > engine failure in the last few days. > - > Except that I ended in a field on the second flight it mirrors my > experience exactly. > - > I put lots of fuel through before first flight ,cleaned the filters > etc.- When after the engine failure I inspected the filters there was > nothing obviously visible to block both the filters. > - > When I posted the problem there were lots with a similar experience.- > It seems to be only in the early hours of flight that the blockages > happen.-- I put a concertina filter in and have had no more problems. > - > My view , without proof , is that some form of fine film comes off the > interior of the tank in the first few flights. > - > The problem seems to be specific to the Europa style tank not just to > fibre glass aeroplanes. > - > No one has been killed yet .- Is it possible to warn all builders now > of this possibility and ban the small Europa supplied filters before > someone is hurt. > - > Kevin Pownall-- kevpow@iinet.net.au ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:58:31 AM PST US From: BEBERRY@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: stalls & spins The usual cause of stall on the approach - or anywhere I suppose, is the application of up elevator when pilot perception is that of being too low. The correct action should surely be emphasised again and again - elevator for change of speed and throttle for height. Patrick ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:33:50 AM PST US From: willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: stalls & spins --> Europa-List message posted by: willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk Surely it depends on how much G you are pulling (or not)?? Willie Harrison G-BZNY >-- Original Message -- >To: europa-list@matronics.com >From: Andrew Sarangan >Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 07:13:54 -0700 (PDT) >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: stalls & spins > > >--> Europa-List message posted by: Andrew Sarangan > > >I don't see the ASI and the AOA as entirely different things, especialy >in a small GA cockpit. The ASI can be calibrated to read angles instead >of speed based on aircraft weight, like the movable outer ring that is >used for calibrating TAS based on temperature. A true AOA independent >of weight is useful only in large transport aircraft where the weight >could vary significantly. > > >--- Mark Burton wrote: > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mark Burton" >> >> Folks, >> >> >> graham(at)gflight.f9.co.u wrote: >> > >> > Mike will have a much more valid opinion than me but I believe the >> > sensible way to monitor airspeed is by angle of attack, the >> instrument >> > tells that that your airspeed is going to change, you can correct >> the >> > changed AoA instantly and speed won't change The ASI tells you at >> least >> > 20 seconds after it's changed which means you then have to regain >> > momentum which will take another 20 seconds or more. Another >> advantage >> > that correct AoA is not dependant on weight, so the figure for >> stall, >> > cruise max range etc all remain constant. >> > my 2 cents >> > Graham >> > >> >> >> There is much good information in Graham's message but I feel that >> this last paragraph is misleading. Unless your ASI is particularly >> sluggish, it will indicate changes in airspeed almost instantly (i.e. >> not 20 seconds later). What takes the time is actually changing the >> speed of the aircraft relative to the surrounding air. Fitting an >> AoA gauge does not make your aircraft accelerate any quicker! >> >> Let's imagine the situation where you are on approach and your >> airspeed is a little below the optimum speed (the AoA is higher than >> desired). Assuming you are not too low, you lower the nose to >> increase the speed (and reduce the AoA). As soon as the nose is >> lowered, the AoA will decrease and if you have an AoA gauge that will >> be indicated immediately. The airspeed, however, does not change >> straightaway (the ASI lag!!!) After a while, your airspeed will >> settle at the new increased value. (perhaps a kind aerodynamics >> person can provide us with a succinct description of what causes the >> airspeed to increase when the AoA is reduced). >> >> Moving the stick forward to reduce the AoA is the crucial action. >> Having moved the stick, the pilot then has to wait until the speed >> stabilises before sampling the ASI again (all gliding instructors >> will remember giving this demo). If the speed doesn't have to change >> by very much (say, < 5 kts) then the pilot doesn't have to wait very >> long (certainly less than 20S). >> >> The rational behind the talking ASI is that if the airspeed on >> approach is not far from the desired speed, then the pitch/throttle >> adjustments required to return to that speed are small and the time >> lag between making an adjustment and achieving the desired speed is >> small. The pilot is "nagged" into maintaining the correct airspeed >> through small changes in pitch/power. >> >> By nagging the pilot to maintain a sensible speed, the talking ASI >> not only protects against stalling, it helps you obtain the >> stabilised approach that Mike Parkin enthused about and is so >> important when operating out of small fields. >> >> I understand the benefits of flying by AoA and if someone produced a >> low cost, reliable, easy to fit and calibrate, AoA instrument that >> didn't require you to have your eyes in the cockpit on approach, I >> would be tempted to have one. >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51717#51717 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ___________________________________________________________ Tiscali Broadband from 14.99 with free setup! http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband/ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:01:07 AM PST US From: Paddy Clarke Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: stalls & spins --> Europa-List message posted by: Paddy Clarke Hi All, I have to that I'm with Graham here. Not only does the AoA system solve the problem of the increased stall speed with bank, it also indicates instantly if an accelerated pitch input is made - not so the ASI. I have the Proprietary Systems AoA. I was recently asked to demonstrate it to another Europa builder. Having investigated the low speed handling solo, and with approx half fuel, the day before, I was surprised by how much faster the IAS was for the same AoAs, with 2 up and near full fuel. The system is relatively easy to fit if it is put in as original equipment and, to answer Marks point, has a good aural warning. Just remember to ignore the American lady when she says 'Angle, Angle, PUSH !' and you're in the flare !! Cheers, Paddy > Do Not Archive > > Paddy Clarke Europa XS - 404 G-KIMM ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:04:35 AM PST US From: Kenneth Whiteley Subject: Re: Europa-List: engine failure due to filters --> Europa-List message posted by: Kenneth Whiteley In message <001a01c6b639$f55ef530$e0513bcb@HomeWS1>, kevin pownall writes >I was interested but not surprised to read about an early flight engine >failure in the last few days. > >Except that I ended in a field on the second flight it mirrors my experience >exactly. > >I put lots of fuel through before first flight ,cleaned the filters etc. When >after the engine failure I inspected the filters there was nothing obviously >visible to block both the filters. > >When I posted the problem there were lots with a similar experience. It >seems to be only in the early hours of flight that the blockages happen. I >put a concertina filter in and have had no more problems. > >My view , without proof , is that some form of fine film comes off the >interior of the tank in the first few flights. > >The problem seems to be specific to the Europa style tank not just to fibre >glass aeroplanes. > >No one has been killed yet . Is it possible to warn all builders now of this >possibility and ban the small Europa supplied filters before someone is >hurt. > >Kevin Pownall kevpow@iinet.net.au I believe you are right. I think the problem is related to the polyethylene fuel tank. It is possible that the fuel can extract waxy material from the polyethylene tank and more particularly any remaining polyethylene swarf from the cutting of the access holes. The waxy material could then coat the nylon filter elements. This series of events is more likely to occur when the aircraft experiences temperature cycles, hot testing and then cooling down in the hangar overnight. I have mentioned this to Europa, but the reply has been that following the Europa procedures this does not normally occur. All later tanks are fluorine treated and this should reduce the extraction tendency. However, there is not an easy solution. The present filters are easy to inspect and relatively easy to clean. There is nowhere to put a more conventional filter where it is realistically easy to clean and inspect. The Andair mini-gascolator has very little more area than the Promax. The larger gascolator is very difficult to dismantle and re-assemble. I am no longer building a Europa, but if I were, I had been persuaded to stay with the existing design, but I would clean the filters frequently in the early stages. I would also fit a fuel pressure gauge and be prepared to act quickly to change to the other tank outlet if the fuel pressure dropped. Ken Whiteley Polyethylene Consultancy ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:23:02 AM PST US From: "Vaughn & Gaye Teegarden" Subject: Europa-List: Re: stalls and spins This does not really need to be said because we all know it, but I am > going to say it anyway. > > I am now involved in my bi-annual review. As in all my bi-annuals and > pilot training, my CFI and I go out and do slooow flight, asi just over > stall speed. The CFI watches closely that I do not bank at more than 10 > or 15 degrees and that I keep the ball centered. Those are the > crucial factors at that speed. While landing the aircraft, the CFI > demands a stabilized approach flown at the air speeds recommended for > the aircraft. If you are diving at the field or dragging the airplane in > on final, you have not flown a stabilized approach. Your speed should > not near stall speed until you are in the flare and very close to the > ground. Most low wing airplanes will float quite a ways in ground effect > if your approach is too fast, but better that then being too slow at > altitude, ( I consider that to be over 10' AGL). If I can't make a > stabilized approach, I will go around and try it again and have done so > on many occasions when dealing with gusty cross winds. I consider a > "GO-Around" to be a successful missed landing, whereas a missed landing > is not in any way successful. I enjoy practicing emergency landings and > usually try to come in high and slip to the field with crossed controls, > but am very careful to maintain airspeed in this attitude. But a > stabilized approach is even more of a difficult skill to perform every > time and I practice a lot. > > Vaughn Teegarden > N914VA not finished, but backing up steadily > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:59 AM PST US From: "Jos Okhuijsen" Subject: Re: Europa-List: engine failure due to filters --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jos Okhuijsen" > The Andair mini-gascolator has very little more area than the Promax. > The larger gascolator is very difficult to dismantle and re-assemble. I Simple question then: Has anybody experienced similar fuel problems without those automotive filters and a mounted gascolator? -- Kind Regards, Jos Okhuijsen workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane http:www.europaowners.org/kit600 mono xs, top on, gear in, tail wheel in, wings set, flapdrive in, tail closed, tailwheel in, tail top in, blue stuff filled, sanded and primed, fuel system in, doors done, windows in, sanding and filling the fuse and wings. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:32 AM PST US From: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu Subject: Europa-List: Stall Spin Chris Beck writes: >>All the recent correspondence following the tragedy at Oshkosh seems to point to >>a basic instability with the Europa. Is this inherent in the design or due to >>building errors?Trimming ailerons to achieve smooth integration with the wing Sorry Chris, Your comments are unfortunately uninformed. Keeping aside our personal feelings of loss for an active member of this online community, the subject aircraft was observed by many to be slow in the pattern and to have overshot the base to final turn. This is a classic scenario for a cross controlled spin entry, which is exactly what happened, according to multiple pilot witnesses. I can not say I saw it happen at the approach end of 27, since I was having breakfast midfield along 36 when it happened, but word travels fast. By no means is this phenomena exclusive to Europas as you imply. I guarantee you that a quick scan of the NTSB database will reveal dozens of C140/150/152 accidents of identical origin. If Europas were the only a/c to drop a wing in a cross controlled stall, why then does every text on flying devote considerable space to this scenario? --------- Ron, why redesign the wing, adding a cuff when the factory makes a clear simple solution in adding a stall strip? Ivan was not at Osh this year, but was according to the Liberty guys, in Africa ferry an a/c. Other Osh tidbit: John Hurst is now working for Phil Lockwood in Sebring Ira N224XS ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:32 PM PST US From: Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: engine failure due to filters After close to 500 hours Chris Staines recently had to make a precautionary landing, when his fuel pressure gauge reading dropped. He has an Andair, but no fuel filters on his 914 mono. The andair filter was covered in something that he described as a green slime, perhaps from a bad batch of mogas. I'd used some of the same fuel but found no contamination in my Andair. Dave do not archive "Jos Okhuijsen" Sent by: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com 08/02/2006 02:44 PM Please respond to europa-list To: europa-list@matronics.com cc: Subject: Re: Europa-List: engine failure due to filters --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jos Okhuijsen" > The Andair mini-gascolator has very little more area than the Promax. > The larger gascolator is very difficult to dismantle and re-assemble. I Simple question then: Has anybody experienced similar fuel problems without those automotive filters and a mounted gascolator? -- Kind Regards, Jos Okhuijsen workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane http:www.europaowners.org/kit600 mono xs, top on, gear in, tail wheel in, wings set, flapdrive in, tail closed, tailwheel in, tail top in, blue stuff filled, sanded and primed, fuel system in, doors done, windows in, sanding and filling the fuse and wings. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:32 PM PST US From: Rman Subject: Re: Europa-List: engine failure due to filters My own experience is much like Jeff's. I Used 1.5" metal filters, from the auto parts store for first flight, and pitched them at one hour. Replaced them with same type and pitched them at 25 hours, replacing with same and tossing at 50 hours. At 150 hours, I installed the Europa filters. Checked them at recent annual (200 hours) and they were fine. Cleaned them out and reinstalled. No problems at all. I did note some restriction in the first two sets of auto filters, though not enough to cause any problems. After that, they are pretty much clean, upon regular 50 hour inspections... Jeff - Baby Blue 200 hours JEFF ROBERTS wrote: > Kevin, > I have flown 27 hours off of N128LJ without a problem. I noticed a > little debris collecting in the left filter so I have switched to the > right side. I mounted the filters under a door in an arm rest between > the seats. I can view them in flight if I want to. I will be changing > them out soon but I don't think anything is wrong with the tanks. I > believe their may be a fuel issue in some cases or area's. After the > tanks were drilled we washed them out with a high pressure hose. No > problems have been encountered yet.... as I'm Knocking on wood. > Regards > Jeff > RMMM > > > On Aug 2, 2006, at 8:45 AM, kevin pownall wrote: > > I was interested but not surprised to read about an early flight > engine failure in the last few days. > > Except that I ended in a field on the second flight it mirrors my > experience exactly. > > I put lots of fuel through before first flight ,cleaned the > filters etc. When after the engine failure I inspected the > filters there was nothing obviously visible to block both the > filters. > > When I posted the problem there were lots with a similar > experience. It seems to be only in the early hours of flight that > the blockages happen. I put a concertina filter in and have had > no more problems. > > My view , without proof , is that some form of fine film comes off > the interior of the tank in the first few flights. > > The problem seems to be specific to the Europa style tank not just > to fibre glass aeroplanes. > > No one has been killed yet . Is it possible to warn all builders > now of this possibility and ban the small Europa supplied filters > before someone is hurt. > > Kevin Pownall kevpow@iinet.net.au > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >No virus found in this incoming message. > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:18:53 PM PST US From: "Jos Okhuijsen" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: stalls and spins --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jos Okhuijsen" > This does not really need to be said because we all know it, but I am >> going to say it anyway. We all know it yes, and still it can't be said too many times. Maybe we then remember when everything possible at once tries to distract us from flying the plane. -- Kind Regards, Jos Okhuijsen workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane http:www.europaowners.org/kit600 mono xs, top on, gear in, tail wheel in, wings set, flapdrive in, tail closed, tailwheel in, tail top in, blue stuff filled, sanded and primed, fuel system in, doors done, windows in, sanding and filling the fuse and wings. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:18:53 PM PST US From: "Mark Burton" Subject: Europa-List: Re: stalls & spins --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mark Burton" paddyclarke(at)lineone.ne wrote: > Hi All, > and, to answer Marks point, has a good aural warning. Just > remember to ignore the American lady when she says 'Angle, Angle, > PUSH !' and you're in the flare !! > Yes, but it still requires you to look inside the cockpit while flying the approach to see the AoA display. Once you get to the point of flaring you don't need any instruments at all. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51853#51853 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:54:47 PM PST US From: "Karl Heindl" Subject: Re: Europa-List: engine failure due to filters --> Europa-List message posted by: "Karl Heindl" Can't say I have had any problem with the Andair gascolator. It is mounted in the fuselage opening in front and next to the new steel springs. Easy to access and the open position may help to cool the fuel. Have never noticed tank residue. My trigear is no. 392. Karl >From: "Jos Okhuijsen" >To: europa-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Europa-List: engine failure due to filters >Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 21:44:12 +0300 > >--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jos Okhuijsen" > >>The Andair mini-gascolator has very little more area than the Promax. The >>larger gascolator is very difficult to dismantle and re-assemble. I > >Simple question then: Has anybody experienced similar fuel problems >without those automotive filters and a mounted gascolator? > >-- >Kind Regards, > >Jos Okhuijsen > >workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane >http:www.europaowners.org/kit600 >mono xs, top on, gear in, tail wheel in, wings set, flapdrive in, tail >closed, tailwheel in, tail top in, blue stuff filled, sanded and primed, >fuel system in, doors done, windows in, sanding and filling the fuse and >wings. > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >http://wiki.matronics.com > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:30:45 PM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: engine failure due to filters --> Europa-List message posted by: "Duncan McFadyean" Can't say I have had any problem with the Flo-ezy filter (at least I think that's how it's mis-spelt!), which is similar to the automotive type but has a 100 micron screen (although it started with a 25 micron screen) and "proper" AN fuel line fittings, which makes removal easy. The surface area is 20 sq.ins. Occasional minor smudges of 'fuel fungi' are picked up, but nothing else after 300 hours. Duncan McF. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 7:44 PM > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jos Okhuijsen" > Simple question then: Has anybody experienced similar fuel problems > without those automotive filters and a mounted gascolator? ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:53:55 PM PST US From: Graeme Smith Subject: Re: Europa-List: engine failure due to filters --> Europa-List message posted by: Graeme Smith Yes, I have an Andair mini-gascolator and suffered a partial power loss requiring a forced landing (fortunately overhead the airfield) during the 2 hr endurance flight which is part of the PFA flight test program. This was after about 3.5 hrs total flight time. The mesh on the gascolator did not appear to be totally clogged but had a kind of fine gunk covering about half the area. My fuel tank is one of the second design made around 1997. I never found out what the gunk was, whether it came from the lining of the tank or was introduced with the fuel. The hope in replacing the Europa filters with the mini-gascolator was that the gascolator bowl would be easily removable and so the filter could be regularly inspected and cleaned, however this has proved not to be the case due to the fact that the bowl seems to jam on during use, and with the confined mounting space in the Europa, removing the bowl is incredibly difficult, and sometimes impossible. On the day of the engine failure, I was instructed by the test pilot (John Brownlow) to check the fuel filters. Since I was unable to get the bowl off to check the filter, I drained the contents of the gascolator into a sight glass and checked that there was no water or sediment. It was all clear, but I couldn't see that the filter was already clogged. I don't see the gascolator as a improvement, although I don't like the Europa filters either. Fortunately, I have not had the same problem since, I am more rigorous about filtering the fuel during refuelling, and cleaning the gascolator filter at each refuelling despite the incredible hassle in trying to get the ****ing thing off. Graeme Smith No 26 Jos Okhuijsen wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jos Okhuijsen" > >> The Andair mini-gascolator has very little more area than the Promax. >> The larger gascolator is very difficult to dismantle and re-assemble. I > > Simple question then: Has anybody experienced similar fuel problems > without those automotive filters and a mounted gascolator? > > --Kind Regards, > > Jos Okhuijsen > > workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane > http:www.europaowners.org/kit600 > mono xs, top on, gear in, tail wheel in, wings set, flapdrive in, tail > closed, tailwheel in, tail top in, blue stuff filled, sanded and > primed, fuel system in, doors done, windows in, sanding and filling > the fuse and wings. > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > --This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:53:56 PM PST US From: "Belinda Glover" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Upside down Europa Have you seen this AAIB report on the Europa dual fatality Kemble accident now assumed to have been spin entry during climb out? http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/Europa%20XL,%20N8027U%202-06.pdf Regards Gary McKirdy ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Iddon To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 11:34 AM Subject: Europa-List: Upside down Europa I regularly practice stalling but up to now have generally only done so when fairly straight and level. With all the discussion about stalling in the turn, I thought I would have a go yesterday. Climbed to about 5000ft. and tried stalling in various configurations. Flaps down I couldn't really get the aircraft to drop a wing although I didn't put in a lot of rudder. However, stalling clean with the aircraft balanced and about 20/30 degrees of bank, the wing dropped violently and the rotation continued until I very rapidly found myself completely inverted. Cushions, maps etc. all over the place. The aircraft pulled out without any problem (not quite sure which way as I was somewhat disoriented) but I lost somewhere over 500 foot in the process. A salutary lesson and will certainly make me think hard about maintaining airspeed and being careful in turns nearer to the ground. Richard Iddon G-RIXS ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:04 PM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Europa-List: Misaligned turn and slip Re the turn and slip indicator, the fix is relatively simple provided you can access the back of the instrument panel and reposition the instrument. The original Europa panels didnt have a removable front and are nigh on impossible to get at without removing the entire instrument panel - a nightmare of a job. Its a good idea to ensure the panel mounting screw holes for the T&S are elongated so that the instrument can be rotated within the main panel. That way the ball can be centered without too much fuss. We lined our instrument panel squarely (or so we thought) within the cockpit but it was clear once we started flying that the panel didnt line up with the wings. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave_Miller@avivacanada.com To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 4:24 PM Subject: Europa-List: Stalls & spins One useful thing about learning to fly in giders, was the constant yelling from the back seat; Keep the speed up Keep the string straight. I still miss the yaw string, the cheapest and most useful instrument made. I'm indebted to Carl for his comments on the ball. In what feels like straight and level flight, mine sits a bit to the left. My feeling was that the instrument was wrong, or that the view from the left seat was distorting my perspective, or that I'd just lost the touch for what is straight and level. Also to Mike for comments regarding the ailerons, mine are level on the ground, but seem to adopt a slight droop in cruise. Some things to look at and fix on C-FBZI Dave A061 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:29:41 PM PST US From: "Carl Pattinson" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: stalls & spins --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" I would suggest that the ASI should only be part of the equation. You need to know the correct attitude (with reference to the horizon) that gives a safe approach speed. If you fly with reference to the ASI alone you end up chasing the airspeed and worse still have your eyeball inside the cockpit instead of keeping an eye on the attitude and where you are heading. On my first ever solo (in a glider) the ASI failed completely and I had to fly the circuit and land without any speed reference whatsoever. Fortunately I was taught to fly by attitude and coped with what would have otherwise been a nasty situation. If your airspeed indicator were to fail would you know what attitude to fly to land safely. If you dont recognise what attitude gives a safe flying speed (flaps up and flaps down) would you be able to cope with such an emergency. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 3:13 PM > --> Europa-List message posted by: Andrew Sarangan > > > I don't see the ASI and the AOA as entirely different things, especialy > in a small GA cockpit. The ASI can be calibrated to read angles instead > of speed based on aircraft weight, like the movable outer ring that is > used for calibrating TAS based on temperature. A true AOA independent > of weight is useful only in large transport aircraft where the weight > could vary significantly. > > > --- Mark Burton wrote: > >> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mark Burton" >> >> Folks, >> >> >> graham(at)gflight.f9.co.u wrote: >> > >> > Mike will have a much more valid opinion than me but I believe the >> > sensible way to monitor airspeed is by angle of attack, the >> instrument >> > tells that that your airspeed is going to change, you can correct >> the >> > changed AoA instantly and speed won't change The ASI tells you at >> least >> > 20 seconds after it's changed which means you then have to regain >> > momentum which will take another 20 seconds or more. Another >> advantage >> > that correct AoA is not dependant on weight, so the figure for >> stall, >> > cruise max range etc all remain constant. >> > my 2 cents >> > Graham >> > >> >> >> There is much good information in Graham's message but I feel that >> this last paragraph is misleading. Unless your ASI is particularly >> sluggish, it will indicate changes in airspeed almost instantly (i.e. >> not 20 seconds later). What takes the time is actually changing the >> speed of the aircraft relative to the surrounding air. Fitting an >> AoA gauge does not make your aircraft accelerate any quicker! >> >> Let's imagine the situation where you are on approach and your >> airspeed is a little below the optimum speed (the AoA is higher than >> desired). Assuming you are not too low, you lower the nose to >> increase the speed (and reduce the AoA). As soon as the nose is >> lowered, the AoA will decrease and if you have an AoA gauge that will >> be indicated immediately. The airspeed, however, does not change >> straightaway (the ASI lag!!!) After a while, your airspeed will >> settle at the new increased value. (perhaps a kind aerodynamics >> person can provide us with a succinct description of what causes the >> airspeed to increase when the AoA is reduced). >> >> Moving the stick forward to reduce the AoA is the crucial action. >> Having moved the stick, the pilot then has to wait until the speed >> stabilises before sampling the ASI again (all gliding instructors >> will remember giving this demo). If the speed doesn't have to change >> by very much (say, < 5 kts) then the pilot doesn't have to wait very >> long (certainly less than 20S). >> >> The rational behind the talking ASI is that if the airspeed on >> approach is not far from the desired speed, then the pitch/throttle >> adjustments required to return to that speed are small and the time >> lag between making an adjustment and achieving the desired speed is >> small. The pilot is "nagged" into maintaining the correct airspeed >> through small changes in pitch/power. >> >> By nagging the pilot to maintain a sensible speed, the talking ASI >> not only protects against stalling, it helps you obtain the >> stabilised approach that Mike Parkin enthused about and is so >> important when operating out of small fields. >> >> I understand the benefits of flying by AoA and if someone produced a >> low cost, reliable, easy to fit and calibrate, AoA instrument that >> didn't require you to have your eyes in the cockpit on approach, I >> would be tempted to have one. >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=51717#51717 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:33:35 PM PST US From: Trevpond@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: stalls & spins The correct action Patrick is to fly the aircraft to the published numbers! Trev Pond Kit 598 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:40:22 PM PST US From: "Belinda Glover" Subject: Europa-List: NSI Subaru owners please read. Our recently rebuilt Europa G-BWCV is again in pieces after we put only 30 more flying hrs on this engine to add to the 50hrs it had done in the hands of the previous owner. We had just received the new full permit to fly when recently, heading for Lundy Island just South of Bristol Docks , the cockpit filled with smoke as if a smoke bomb had gone off and the engine stopped! I could not discern whether the smoke was electrical in origin but assumed as the engine had stopped it had to be. The cause and subsequent sequence of events has now been established. Alternator bearing seizure initiated dual rubber v-belt slip at the crankshaft pulley. In 2-3 seconds 50 cruise hp turned both rubber belts into smoke and vulcanised them instead of driving the now freewheeling prop (no flywheel effect to snap belts). The alternator was switched off immediately but to no benefit since its load was not the issue. So instead of the crankshaft pulley driving the alternator, the alternator now seized was now driving the engine to a stop! A relatively minor accessory failure had initiated a cascade of events equivalent or even worse than a major engine failure. Ofcourse this should not happen should it? Little did I know I had become an involuntary test pilot!!!!!!!with an observer!!!!! The idea of a re-start attempt was not surprisingly quickly rejected. However, as I now know it would obviously have been a futile exercise, the engine stopped from 50hp running so the starter did not have a chance. Two other aspects of this incident made for an extremely high workload. 1. I had to switch off all electrics to prevent any further risk of smoke (if only to be able to see out for a forced landing) or worse still fire. This meant I lost the electric trim. This may appear a small thing but believe me, this meant the constant use of one hand flying the stick without feel and as a consequence one eye glued to the ASI. A workload I did not need at this time. Mechanical trim would have helped enormously. Try your practice forced landings in cruise trim to see what I mean. "It could be you." 2. The other aspect which is a little more difficult to practice was the free wheeling prop. All practice forced landings to date had been with the engine at idle as is usual. In this condition increasing speed, by diving, increases engine rpm so the sprag clutch is effectively connecting engine and propeller like any other engine. When the engine stopped, I was quickly aware of an abnormally high rate of descent. The prop ran away like a wind generator in hurricane, the feel of the stick was abnormal due to the out of trim load and I think also the braking effect on the airflow over the tail.of the prop now in drag parachute mode. The location was far from ideal for a forced landing and with the high rate of descent meaning short time for descent we could easily have come off far worse especially since the area was well populated with power lines of different sizes forcing a late rejection of the primary field selection. Having taken the diagonal in anticipation of the limited field size We hit the far hedge in a 290 meter 30+ Celcius almost max gross with wind light and variable as the sea breeze was backing up the Severn valley. The near hedge incidentally was a 6 foot steep bank from a wide drainage canal. This, coupled with the unusual deck angle in the glide which only got worse of course when I put the coupled gear and flap down on the Mono, requiring an unusually long duration flare as if landing up hill, put our aiming point considerably before the actual touch down point so we were going to hit the hedge. The last trick I had up my sleeve from my cross country gliding days was to drop the gear in order to minimise the ground roll. This in retrospect, although it did no such thing, probably stopped us flipping upside down. I never considered applying the brake but the wheel just keeps turning judging by our grass marks.Which fortunately I was able to pace out having vacated the aircraft. I am giving a talk to Gloucester strut about the Europa rebuild and now have a new chapter. It is in the Aeros flying club building next Tuesday at 07.30 pm and would welcome anyone especially Subaru owners to come along. I still like the Subaru engine and would be happy to fly it again once this single point failure has been addressed. If the Europa flies again it will be called hedgehog! ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:37 PM PST US From: Chris Beck Subject: Re: Europa-List: Stall Spin --> Europa-List message posted by: Chris Beck Actually, Ira, I didn't make the quoted comment you reference to. That was someone else. I only made reference to the stalling habits of 152's that I've flown. Chris irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu wrote: > > Chris Beck writes: > > >>All the recent correspondence following the tragedy at Oshkosh seems > to point to > >>a basic instability with the Europa. Is this inherent in the design > or due to > >>building errors?Trimming ailerons to achieve smooth integration with > the wing > > > Sorry Chris, > > Your comments are unfortunately uninformed. > > Keeping aside our personal feelings of loss for an active member of > this online community, the subject > aircraft was observed by many to be slow in the pattern and to have > overshot the base to final turn. > This is a classic scenario for a cross controlled spin entry, which is > exactly what happened, according > to multiple pilot witnesses. I can not say I saw it happen at the > approach end of 27, since I was > having breakfast midfield along 36 when it happened, but word travels > fast. > > By no means is this phenomena exclusive to Europas as you imply. I > guarantee you that a quick scan > of the NTSB database will reveal dozens of C140/150/152 accidents of > identical origin. If Europas were > the only a/c to drop a wing in a cross controlled stall, why then does > every text on flying devote > considerable space to this scenario? > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:55:25 PM PST US From: "Jim Butcher" Subject: Europa-List: Fly In EUROPA AIRCRAFT FLY-IN When: Saturday, Aug 26, 2006. Where: Almena Airport (2C5 - Paw Paw, MI - 12 miles SW of Kalamazoo, MI). Coordinates 42deg 15.17'N, 085 deg 51.10'W. Almena is a Day VFR 2100 ft grass strip. Food: Barbecue lunch on Saturday. Other meals available at adjacent golf course or in town. Activities: Experience and talk Europas!! Other possibilities include: Tour Kalamazoo Aviation History Museum (AirZoo) Winery Tours Accommodations: If you'd like to arrive on Friday and/or stay through Sunday, you may pitch a tent at the airport. Showers are available at adjacent golf course. Motels are nearby (5 mi). Weather: Average High 82, Average Low 59 More Information: Jim & Heather Butcher, europa@triton.net, 269-375-5923, Cell - 269-599-0122 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:49 PM PST US From: "Steve Hagar" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Anyone have fuel lines inside cockpit by pilot? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Steve Hagar" My return line runs along the co-pilot's side of the center console. It come straight down from the firewall from a 90 degree bulkhead fitting. It goes straight to the floor and enters the theigh support and goes under the seat where the return flowscan is mounted then goes back to the tank. The line is securely attached at all positions and is flush to the corner interface of the floor and console side. There is 9 hours on the aircraft now. I probably could make a fiberglass fairing to cover it over but it is fairly un-obtrusive as positioned now. Steve A143 (40SH) Mesa , AZ Now flying and tweaking Steve Hagar hagargs@earthlink.net > [Original Message] > From: > To: > Date: 8/1/2006 11:35:21 PM > Subject: Europa-List: Anyone have fuel lines inside cockpit by pilot? > > --> Europa-List message posted by: > > I have a Monowheel with Airbrake lever installed. Both makes for less > options when running fuel lines to the engine. > > My plan is to run fuel lines through some PVC plastic conduit on the port > side of the tunnel, punch into the cockpit through the pilot right side > thigh support on the fuse floor, sneak under the airbrake torque tube / > horn. > > I will transition just about under the Airbrake torque tube from supplied > fuel hose to aeroquip stainless steel braided fuel hose the same diameter. > The transition will happen at 2 flowscan transducers. > > Now punch through the left cockpit module flange bout 4 inches below the > roof into the engine compartment, between the footwell side and the > vertical undercarriage mounting frame tube. > > > Anyone done similar? Are you flying? > > How did you mount hoses? > > Did you cover hoses with anything? > > What are the details of how you made firewall penetration? > > Any pictures? > > Thx. > Ron Parigoris > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:18:41 PM PST US From: "John & Amy Eckel" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cliff and Betty Shaw remembrance Neville this is a great idea. I was fortunate enough to know Cliff and Betty on a personal level through attendance at OSH. I have been staying with the same family in the OSH area for the last several years. When Cliff wrote that he was planning an OSH trip in 2004 I gave him the name of the people I stay with. The family is wonderful and all the guest become part of the family and each year a special part of the trip is seeing all our friends that share the same house. Cliff and Betty became part of the OSH family of friends so it was a great shock to loose them. The folks that live in OSH, Cindy and Mark, invited Cliff and Betty's sons to stay with them for the time they were in OSH making final arrangements. Cindy asked about the idea of a moment of silence and they like the idea. According to the Galaxy Hobby web site http://www.galaxyhobby.com/ there will be a service on August 16th, but the time is not known at this time. If I could add a suggestion. Perhaps at the end of the silence we could send a "Farewell Cliff and Betty" message on the forum. John Eckel ----- ----- From: NevEyre@aol.com To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 5:12 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cliff and Betty Shaw remembrance Hi All, I sent a private email to Bob Jacobsen, for him to run this idea past the Shaw family..... During the Funeral ceremony, at a pre-determined time [ Zulu, so we all are aware of the same moment in time] there is a one minute silence, so we can all stop whatever we are doing, and and think of the passing of Cliff and Betty......... If this is not what the Family want, we could do something on our own, perhaps at the P.F.A. Rally, at the end of the Europa Club AGM, we could have a minutes silence, again, if it was set at a specific time,all the Europa community, wherever in the world they might be, could stop for that same minute...... Nev. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:21 PM PST US From: "Steve Hagar" Subject: Re: Europa-List: engine failure due to filters --> Europa-List message posted by: "Steve Hagar" I went through all the routines and thought I had it licked. Pressure wash, gas flush, soap and water. Inspection through the hole I cut for the fuel level transducer. Then using both pumps to run volumes of gas through the system. I thought I had it pristine. Inspecting the filters had them "looking good" However comparing a "clogged" filter against a new one only revealed only a higher degree of opaquenees? Hence my assumption that what is clogging the filter is the same color as the white element. I would have been better off not being able to see anything getting a false sence of security. So my fix is to get a disposable type filter at least 4 times larger than the supplied units and change them regularly in early flying. Making sure each one is right before each pump rather than at the outlet of each side of the tank. Steve A143 N40SH Flying and fixin' Steve Hagar hagargs@earthlink.net > [Original Message] > From: JEFF ROBERTS > To: > Date: 8/2/2006 8:36:18 AM > Subject: Re: Europa-List: engine failure due to filters > > Kevin, > I have flown 27 hours off of N128LJ without a problem. I noticed a > little debris collecting in the left filter so I have switched to the > right side. I mounted the filters under a door in an arm rest between > the seats. I can view them in flight if I want to. I will be changing > them out soon but I don't think anything is wrong with the tanks. I > believe their may be a fuel issue in some cases or area's. After the > tanks were drilled we washed them out with a high pressure hose. No > problems have been encountered yet.... as I'm Knocking on wood. > Regards > Jeff > RMMM > > > On Aug 2, 2006, at 8:45 AM, kevin pownall wrote: > > > I was interested but not surprised to read about an early flight > > engine failure in the last few days. > > > > Except that I ended in a field on the second flight it mirrors my > > experience exactly. > > > > I put lots of fuel through before first flight ,cleaned the filters > > etc. When after the engine failure I inspected the filters there was > > nothing obviously visible to block both the filters. > > > > When I posted the problem there were lots with a similar experience. > > It seems to be only in the early hours of flight that the blockages > > happen. I put a concertina filter in and have had no more problems. > > > > My view , without proof , is that some form of fine film comes off the > > interior of the tank in the first few flights. > > > > The problem seems to be specific to the Europa style tank not just to > > fibre glass aeroplanes. > > > > No one has been killed yet . Is it possible to warn all builders now > > of this possibility and ban the small Europa supplied filters before > > someone is hurt. > > > > Kevin Pownall kevpow@iinet.net.au ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:15 PM PST US From: "Richard Schultz" Subject: Europa-List: Oshkosh by air - return by Avis I am looking for ideas on a recurring engine problem that caused me 3 precautionary landings on the way from Oshkosh last weekend. The typical setting was after an hour to hour and a half of cruise flight time the engine would drop RPM and feel like it was ready to quit. Moving the throttle forward made it worse and pulling it back made it better. The first hint of a problem was on landing at Green Bay after coming up from Texas. The engine ran at reduced power as soon as I came off the throttle to start the decent for landing from 6500 feet. The initial thought was the problem came from the longer idle coming down and fouling the plugs. A change of the plugs and the engine ran on the ground for 20 minutes going in to and out of full turbo power without a hitch. The plane was then flown for an hour to Oshkosh and for an additional hour during the week both at low level (2500') the return trip started out great and at 6500' and about an hour in to the flight again the engine lost power. I tried the throttle settings and again moving up was bad down was good. I tried both fuel pumps on and each alone, I tried both sets of plugs alone and together with no change in the engine response at cruise range. Another landing and calls to Lockwood for advice. They had me inspect the filters with were just replaced prior to the trip and clean, Next I opened the fuel pressure regulator to check for dirt, nothing clean as the day it was built. I next check the carbs to see of they were free floating and they were no lead build up. I then was told to report the needle valve richer to see if that would help. Run up on the ground for 20 minutes showed no signs of problems. Next morning (Sunday) run up on the ground looked good. Climbed up to 6500 over the airport and hung out doing circles for about half an hour using the full range of throttle settings. After the half hour set 5000 RPM and 30 inches and off I went. 30 minutes latter the same old problem was back. I again made a precautionary landing in Iowa. Having had all the fun I cold have and no new ideas the plan was left to think about its behavior and drove home. I am taking my trailer up to embarrass the plane in from of its new friends and pull the wings and bring it back to Houston this weekend. Dose anyone have a thought on why this is happening after a hour or more at cruise power? Flight up was 12 hours with no problems and it just came on very sudden. I have been burning a combination of avgas and mogas with the trip up being all avgas. Fuel pumps were tested the week before the flight @ 20 gallons an hour for each pump. Comments anyone with a 914 having similar problems? Aircraft has 95 hours. 914 with an intercooler, AirMaster prop ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 08:45:03 PM PST US From: Andrew Sarangan Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: stalls & spins --> Europa-List message posted by: Andrew Sarangan I agree entirely. In fact I teach my primary students how to approach and land with all instruments covered, including airspeed and altimeter. If you know the pitch + power combination for every flight configuration, you don't need much else. However, the pitch+power combination depends on aircraft weight and load factor. If you use AOA+power, it would be independent of weight and load factor. This is why some people prefer AOA. My point was that rarely do we have large variations in load factor or weight to make this a highly useful instrument. I would be interested to know if there are any studies that show than an AOA makes that much difference in stall-spin accidents. In my observation flying with many pilots, new and old, by the time someone gets into a dangerously slow airspeed and a screwed up approach, they are rarely able to pay attention to the flight instruments or even hear the stall horn. What saves them is their basic airmanship to recognize the unusual attitude and recover it to a familiar pitch + power configuration. I doubt that yet another instrument on the panel is going to be of much help to those who get that far into the danger zone. --- Carl Pattinson wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Carl Pattinson" > > > I would suggest that the ASI should only be part of the equation. You > need > to know the correct attitude (with reference to the horizon) that > gives a > safe approach speed. If you fly with reference to the ASI alone you > end up > chasing the airspeed and worse still have your eyeball inside the > cockpit > instead of keeping an eye on the attitude and where you are heading. > > On my first ever solo (in a glider) the ASI failed completely and I > had to > fly the circuit and land without any speed reference whatsoever. > Fortunately > I was taught to fly by attitude and coped with what would have > otherwise > been a nasty situation. > > If your airspeed indicator were to fail would you know what attitude > to fly > to land safely. If you dont recognise what attitude gives a safe > flying > speed (flaps up and flaps down) would you be able to cope with such > an > emergency. > > Andrew Sarangan http://www.sarangan.org ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 10:10:46 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Europa-List: Oshkosh by air - return by Avis --> Europa-List message posted by: Hello Richard "Comments anyone with a 914 having similar problems" I am not yet flying my 914, but have a pretty good in site. Do you have a Differential pressure gauge? Was it less than 2 pounds? If you don't have one, why not? Was your EGT high? Running out of gas will create a lean mixture and show high on EGT. What fuel schematic you using? Parallel or series with bypass? What type of filters you using and where are they placed? If Parallel do you have a filter at the inlet of each pump? If series with bypass is 1 filter on inlet of pump 1 and the other at the inlet of checkvalve where it can only supply pump 2. It sounds like you are running out of gas. The very first think to check is make sure the vent on your fuel tank is allowing air to get into tank. If air can't get into tank, after a while fuel will not be able to get out. See: http://www.sarangan.org/europa_forum/2005-10/index.html Search: Rob Neils Ron Do you have any gasculators? If so is it a Mini Andair? Did you clean the gasculator filters? Have you ever run for any reason with no filter going to the fuel pumps? There are filter socks in the inlet of the pumps that could be clogged. Very careful inspect all the vacuum/pressure hoses on the 914, especial to one supplying the diaphragm of the fuel pressure regulator, and the hoses going from airbox to solenoid valve, and from the solenoid valve to the float bowls of the carbs. A crack, leak or restriction will do no good for proper running. These are critical on a 914. Check for kinked or restricting hoses from outlet of tank all the way to engine. Did you try reserve? I heard that 1 guy in England had animal hair sneak past the snake catcher filter on tank outlet, and became a sort of spider web that collected debris and clogged outlet, so could be outlet of tank clogged. You mention you saw 20GPH on each pump. I suspect the test you did was useless. Read on Rotax service manual how to test flow of pumps. You want to make sure not only the pump has an OK flow rate, but bottom line is you need to be able to persuade the fuel pressure regulator to overcome 115% airbox pressure, that takes flow and pressure. Worst case is at altitude where pumps need to make more pressure over ambient to net 2 to 5 pounds over airbox pressure. I recent posted how to obtain manuals and how to update them. Good Luck. Let us know resolve. Sincerely Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 10:52:31 PM PST US From: "David Glauser" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: stalls & spin --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Glauser" When I was being examined for my PPL, the examiner decided I had my head in the cockpit too much. He covered the entire panel with the largest handkerchief I'd ever seen, and I flew the remaining hour with no instruments at all. Certainly makes you look outside! dg On 8/2/06, Andrew Sarangan wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: Andrew Sarangan > > I agree entirely. In fact I teach my primary students how to approach > and land with all instruments covered, including airspeed and > altimeter. If you know the pitch + power combination for every flight > configuration, you don't need much else. However, the pitch+power > combination depends on aircraft weight and load factor. If you use > AOA+power, it would be independent of weight and load factor. This is > why some people prefer AOA. My point was that rarely do we have large > variations in load factor or weight to make this a highly useful > instrument. I would be interested to know if there are any studies that > show than an AOA makes that much difference in stall-spin accidents. In > my observation flying with many pilots, new and old, by the time > someone gets into a dangerously slow airspeed and a screwed up > approach, they are rarely able to pay attention to the flight > instruments or even hear the stall horn. What saves them is their basic > airmanship to recognize the unusual attitude and recover it to a > familiar pitch + power configuration. I doubt that yet another > instrument on the panel is going to be of much help to those who get > that far into the danger zone. ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 11:00:37 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Oshkosh by air - return by Avis Hi! Richard I don't know about 914's.yet but have you thought about Ice possibility ? You didn't mention about use of carb heat on decent? Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Schultz Sent: 03 August 2006 03:54 I am looking for ideas on a recurring engine problem that caused me 3 precautionary landings on the way from Oshkosh last weekend. The typical setting was after an hour to hour and a half of cruise flight time the engine would drop RPM and feel like it was ready to quit. Moving the throttle forward made it worse and pulling it back made it better. The first hint of a problem was on landing at Green Bay after coming up from Texas. The engine ran at reduced power as soon as I came off the throttle to start the decent for landing from 6500 feet. The initial thought was the problem came from the longer idle coming down and fouling the plugs. A change of the plugs and the engine ran on the ground for 20 minutes going in to and out of full turbo power without a hitch. The plane was then flown for an hour to Oshkosh and for an additional hour during the week both at low level (2500') the return trip started out great and at 6500' and about an hour in to the flight again the engine lost power. I tried the throttle settings and again moving up was bad down was good. I tried both fuel pumps on and each alone, I tried both sets of plugs alone and together with no change in the engine response at cruise range. Another landing and calls to Lockwood for advice. They had me inspect the filters with were just replaced prior to the trip and clean, Next I opened the fuel pressure regulator to check for dirt, nothing clean as the day it was built. I next check the carbs to see of they were free floating and they were no lead build up. I then was told to report the needle valve richer to see if that would help. Run up on the ground for 20 minutes showed no signs of problems. Next morning (Sunday) run up on the ground looked good. Climbed up to 6500 over the airport and hung out doing circles for about half an hour using the full range of throttle settings. After the half hour set 5000 RPM and 30 inches and off I went. 30 minutes latter the same old problem was back. I again made a precautionary landing in Iowa. Having had all the fun I cold have and no new ideas the plan was left to think about its behavior and drove home. I am taking my trailer up to embarrass the plane in from of its new friends and pull the wings and bring it back to Houston this weekend. Dose anyone have a thought on why this is happening after a hour or more at cruise power? Flight up was 12 hours with no problems and it just came on very sudden. I have been burning a combination of avgas and mogas with the trip up being all avgas. Fuel pumps were tested the week before the flight @ 20 gallons an hour for each pump. Comments anyone with a 914 having similar problems? Aircraft has 95 hours. 914 with an intercooler, AirMaster prop ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 11:00:38 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: NSI Subaru owners please read. Hi! If I recall correctly the trim is supposed to be wired direct and so a separate circuit to the main electrical system for just such an event as you describe? Mine is as also is the electric clock since I remove the fuse whenever parked up for a long period to conserve battery power. Don't know if a Subaru installation is different but can't see why it needs to be? Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG (Grounded for repair too!) Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Belinda Glover Sent: 02 August 2006 23:41 Our recently rebuilt Europa G-BWCV is again in pieces after we put only 30 more flying hrs on this engine to add to the 50hrs it had done in the hands of the previous owner. We had just received the new full permit to fly when recently, heading for Lundy Island just South of Bristol Docks , the cockpit filled with smoke as if a smoke bomb had gone off and the engine stopped! I could not discern whether the smoke was electrical in origin but assumed as the engine had stopped it had to be. The cause and subsequent sequence of events has now been established. Alternator bearing seizure initiated dual rubber v-belt slip at the crankshaft pulley. In 2-3 seconds 50 cruise hp turned both rubber belts into smoke and vulcanised them instead of driving the now freewheeling prop (no flywheel effect to snap belts). The alternator was switched off immediately but to no benefit since its load was not the issue. So instead of the crankshaft pulley driving the alternator, the alternator now seized was now driving the engine to a stop! A relatively minor accessory failure had initiated a cascade of events equivalent or even worse than a major engine failure. Ofcourse this should not happen should it? Little did I know I had become an involuntary test pilot!!!!!!!with an observer!!!!! The idea of a re-start attempt was not surprisingly quickly rejected. However, as I now know it would obviously have been a futile exercise, the engine stopped from 50hp running so the starter did not have a chance. Two other aspects of this incident made for an extremely high workload. 1. I had to switch off all electrics to prevent any further risk of smoke (if only to be able to see out for a forced landing) or worse still fire. This meant I lost the electric trim. This may appear a small thing but believe me, this meant the constant use of one hand flying the stick without feel and as a consequence one eye glued to the ASI. A workload I did not need at this time. Mechanical trim would have helped enormously. Try your practice forced landings in cruise trim to see what I mean. "It could be you." 2. The other aspect which is a little more difficult to practice was the free wheeling prop. All practice forced landings to date had been with the engine at idle as is usual. In this condition increasing speed, by diving, increases engine rpm so the sprag clutch is effectively connecting engine and propeller like any other engine. When the engine stopped, I was quickly aware of an abnormally high rate of descent. The prop ran away like a wind generator in hurricane, the feel of the stick was abnormal due to the out of trim load and I think also the braking effect on the airflow over the tail.of the prop now in drag parachute mode. The location was far from ideal for a forced landing and with the high rate of descent meaning short time for descent we could easily have come off far worse especially since the area was well populated with power lines of different sizes forcing a late rejection of the primary field selection. Having taken the diagonal in anticipation of the limited field size We hit the far hedge in a 290 meter 30+ Celcius almost max gross with wind light and variable as the sea breeze was backing up the Severn valley. The near hedge incidentally was a 6 foot steep bank from a wide drainage canal. This, coupled with the unusual deck angle in the glide which only got worse of course when I put the coupled gear and flap down on the Mono, requiring an unusually long duration flare as if landing up hill, put our aiming point considerably before the actual touch down point so we were going to hit the hedge. The last trick I had up my sleeve from my cross country gliding days was to drop the gear in order to minimise the ground roll. This in retrospect, although it did no such thing, probably stopped us flipping upside down. I never considered applying the brake but the wheel just keeps turning judging by our grass marks.Which fortunately I was able to pace out having vacated the aircraft. I am giving a talk to Gloucester strut about the Europa rebuild and now have a new chapter. It is in the Aeros flying club building next Tuesday at 07.30 pm and would welcome anyone especially Subaru owners to come along. I still like the Subaru engine and would be happy to fly it again once this single point failure has been addressed. If the Europa flies again it will be called hedgehog!