---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 08/05/06: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:45 AM - 912S engine vibration (Richard Iddon) 2. 03:17 AM - Re: 912S engine vibration (Duncan McFadyean) 3. 04:13 AM - Re: 912S engine vibration (Richard Iddon) 4. 07:31 AM - Engine failure due to filters (Fergus Kyle) 5. 07:31 AM - Re: Stalls and spins (David Joyce) 6. 10:33 AM - Re: Fuel Filters (rlborger) 7. 12:04 PM - Re: 912S engine vibration () 8. 12:04 PM - Re: 912S engine vibration () 9. 12:04 PM - Re: engine failure due to filters (Belinda Glover) 10. 02:50 PM - Europa for Sale (Sven den Boer) 11. 03:01 PM - Re: Re: Fuel Filters (BEBERRY@aol.com) 12. 04:53 PM - Re: 912S engine vibration (Kim Prout) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:45:59 AM PST US From: "Richard Iddon" Subject: Europa-List: 912S engine vibration I am experiencing a slight vibration whilst at cruise speed / rev's. I have tried a number of things to rectify it including balancing the prop (thanks to Mark Burton), checking the carb mounting rubbers for splits, balancing the carb's and changing the spark plugs. All to no avail. It is not a major vibration and, having got a little paranoid about it, it is maybe mostly in my head now but I am still slightly concerned about it. Seems to be worst at around 110 knots with the prop at 'cruise' setting, i.e. 5000 rpm and a manifold pressure around 23in. Engine is 912S with an Airmaster prop. Any idea's? Incidentally when checking the carb mounting rubbers I did discover a split starting in one. It hadn't gone right through but was significant so I have changed them for the latest mounting rubbers. This has probably been discussed before but If you are not sure whether yours are the latest, look at the jubilee type clip which holds them to the carb. The latest have a spacer inserted to stop you overtightening them. Another check is the number on the flange. My old one's were numbered 267787 and the new one's 267788 Richard Iddon G-RIXS ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:17:41 AM PST US From: "Duncan McFadyean" Subject: Re: Europa-List: 912S engine vibration << I did discover a split starting in one>> Richard, Have you always had the airbox fitted? It is unusual to find the rubbers splitting in the presence of an airbox. Can't comment on the vibration, other than to check that any LE prop protection is secure. Rgds., Duncan. ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Iddon To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 10:37 AM Subject: Europa-List: 912S engine vibration I am experiencing a slight vibration whilst at cruise speed / rev's. I have tried a number of things to rectify it including balancing the prop (thanks to Mark Burton), checking the carb mounting rubbers for splits, balancing the carb's and changing the spark plugs. All to no avail. It is not a major vibration and, having got a little paranoid about it, it is maybe mostly in my head now but I am still slightly concerned about it. Seems to be worst at around 110 knots with the prop at 'cruise' setting, i.e. 5000 rpm and a manifold pressure around 23in. Engine is 912S with an Airmaster prop. Any idea's? Incidentally when checking the carb mounting rubbers I did discover a split starting in one. It hadn't gone right through but was significant so I have changed them for the latest mounting rubbers. This has probably been discussed before but If you are not sure whether yours are the latest, look at the jubilee type clip which holds them to the carb. The latest have a spacer inserted to stop you overtightening them. Another check is the number on the flange. My old one's were numbered 267787 and the new one's 267788 Richard Iddon G-RIXS ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:13:57 AM PST US From: "Richard Iddon" Subject: RE: Europa-List: 912S engine vibration Duncan. I always have had the airbox fitted. It was my local Rotax man who urged me to have a closer look at the rubbers. He tells me that he has come across splits in the sockets on engines with only a few hours although these are probably on microlights with unsupported carbs. I couldn't see the crack with the rubbers in place, I had to remove them completely and bend them around to find it. Cheers. Richard. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Duncan McFadyean Sent: 05 August 2006 11:16 << I did discover a split starting in one>> Richard, Have you always had the airbox fitted? It is unusual to find the rubbers splitting in the presence of an airbox. Can't comment on the vibration, other than to check that any LE prop protection is secure. Rgds., Duncan. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 10:37 AM I am experiencing a slight vibration whilst at cruise speed / rev's. I have tried a number of things to rectify it including balancing the prop (thanks to Mark Burton), checking the carb mounting rubbers for splits, balancing the carb's and changing the spark plugs. All to no avail. It is not a major vibration and, having got a little paranoid about it, it is maybe mostly in my head now but I am still slightly concerned about it. Seems to be worst at around 110 knots with the prop at 'cruise' setting, i.e. 5000 rpm and a manifold pressure around 23in. Engine is 912S with an Airmaster prop. Any idea's? Incidentally when checking the carb mounting rubbers I did discover a split starting in one. It hadn't gone right through but was significant so I have changed them for the latest mounting rubbers. This has probably been discussed before but If you are not sure whether yours are the latest, look at the jubilee type clip which holds them to the carb. The latest have a spacer inserted to stop you overtightening them. Another check is the number on the flange. My old one's were numbered 267787 and the new one's 267788 Richard Iddon G-RIXS ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:31:11 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Europa-List: Engine failure due to filters --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" Nigel, Thanks for the timely and interesting run-down on the aspects of tank and filter. This will not apply to 912 readesr but for us 914ers: Would you think a continuous running of series/parallel fuel pumps (with short circuits from output to return line) would forestall some of this plugging before flight? Since we here have a mandatory engine-run minimum perhaps we could do the above during that period and allay some of the suggested gumming/swarf concern. I have combined my 3/8inch alu tubing with a concentrated plumbing compartment (in the second of 56 compartments below the extended baggage section) where the filters are hinged above all so that they are (a) easily and quickly inspected, and (b) by draining the Andair below, emptied for dis-assembly and cleaning as required. I'm not sure it would meet with anyone else's needs but my inspector has OK'd it. If I can master the technique, will try to reduce photo size and send to anyone interested. Cheers, and thanks again, Ferg Kyle Europa A064 914 Classic PS: Superb set-up there and hugs for Kathy. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:31:11 AM PST US From: "David Joyce" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Stalls and spins --> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" Willie, This for me underlines the benefit of Mark's Smartass system, as opposed to a stall warner. The Europa good weather approach speed of 60 kts is some 20kts over the normal stall speed for my plane, and Mark's system will consequently give you 20 kts worth of warning if you are slowing, whereas the stall warner clicks in only 5kts or so ahead of trouble. Losing 5 or 10 kts due to windshear is commonplace in reasonable weather conditions, and although in ideal circumstances we are monitoring speed like hawks and will compensate before things have got too much out of line, it can be an entirely different kettle of fish if the workload is excessive - perhaps a very busy circuit with someone appearing to cut in front of you (typical rally scenario you might think!). In those sort of circumstances you may already have let things get a bit slow and low, and might without giving it full thought be still trying to make the nose point at the numbers, while mostly concentrating on the guy to starboard who is threatening to cut in. With the Smartass Mark's lovely wife will have already told you several times that you are too slow or much too slow, but without it, the windshear, the stall warner and the spin may all happen more or less simultaneously. That system incidentally lets you set the chosen approach speed very simply in the circuit, so that you can for instance set a higher speed if conditions are boisterous, 'fickle' or whatever. I should say that I don't have shares, nor yet a Smartass, but I have flown with one and plan to put one in when I redesign my panel. Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 11:22 AM > --> Europa-List message posted by: willie.harrison@tinyonline.co.uk > > It seems to me that everyone is right - it doesn't matter how you stay alert > to the possibility of one or both wings stalling, if you let them, so long > as you really do stay alert and maintain a safe margin at all times. Alert > is the operative word. I'm sure we have all been reminded by this tragedy > that stall/spin is a common killer and it could happen to any of us if we > let it. > > The one specific thing I'd like to share was an incident ages ago when I > stalled a Jodel from 30 feet due to windshear at Audley End (which can be > very fickle if the wind is coming straight over the top of the hill). One > moment I had an approach airspeed of 50kts, and the next it was 30 and I > was falling not flying. Fortunately that aircraft had loads of washout on > the wing so at least I came down the right way up. > > Willie Harrison > G-BZNY - about to get a dose of Mod 66 following breakage of gas strut attachment > lug... > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > Tiscali Broadband from 14.99 with free setup! > http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband/ > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Doctors.net.uk education: totally independent, totally free. > http://www.doctors.net.uk/education > _______________________________________________________________________ > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:33:38 AM PST US From: rlborger Subject: Europa-List: Re: Fuel Filters Ferg, I'd sure like to see pics of your setup. I still have the old, original, parallel pump setup with the glass filters in line between the fuel selector and the pumps. I'm not crazy about the setup, but haven't been able to come up with what I believe is a suitable alternative. Right now, I'm thinking about adding a single large Anadir gascolator in-line before the Tee to the glass filters and pumps. But I need to mount it such that it's easily accessible for maintenance. Good building and great flying, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL (85%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in, outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in, Mod 70 done. Baggage bay in. Working in - 24 Instrument Panel, 25 Electrical, 28 Flaps, 29 Main Gear, 30 Fuel System, 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35 Doors, 37 Finishing. Airmaster arrived 29 Sep 05. Seat arrived from Oregon Aero. Waiting for E04 interior kit. Preparing for ROTAX 914 installation. 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:04:23 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Europa-List: 912S engine vibration --> Europa-List message posted by: Hello Richard "I am experiencing a slight vibration whilst at cruise speed / rev's." "Any idea's?" Have a look at: http://www.rotaxservice.com/rotax_tips/rotax_vibration.htm Have a look at causes of vibration and troubleshooting. You will need to install Microsoft PowerPoint Viewer, free on that link if Powerpoint will not open as was the case with my version. You need to download the ppt, then open the viewer, and open the ppt through the viewer. Does operating on 1 igniton then the other change things? You said you adjusted your carb sync. Did you make absolute certain that the routing of your cables is not creating lost motion due to flexing of the cables? How about the bug nuts perhaps being overtightened (bug nuts are the cylinder in the carb linkage arm that you thread the cable through and tighten the screw to hold the cable) if the cylinder is not able to rotate free it can cause carbs to become out of sync, just like the hysteriousis caused by flexing of cables. You check careful no cable too close to heat and got damaged? Did you replace the float pins as per the bulletin? If you think carbs are perhaps a bit rich, turn off your fuel selector in cruise, when bowls go low mixture will get leaner, best do it only for an instant, turn off fuel, if it gets better, pull power and turn on selector, go land and trouble shoot rich. If it has no change, the split second it begins to get rough, or if you have a EGT and you see going high, pull power, and turn on selector. I have no first hand experience with a Europa, but the BD5 used to adjust mixture (leaner) by having a needle valve control flow into the 3 carbs of a Zenoah! It is possable that if you are good with fiddly things you could actual restrict flow enough with selector to prolong the good running to be sure. Did you check to make absolute sure the prop blades are in good shape, that they are tracking precise and that the angles are exact? The spinner is tracking true, tight and no severe cracks? Did you check to see if your undercarriage mounting frame is cracked> Inspect motor mounts, tight and the motor mount and mounting ring OK. Are your both your carb float bowl vents in good shape, no kinks and run to ambient air? Fly at vibration speed for a while, land and check plugs for color? Best to pull power quit engine and deadstick but if not wanting to do that, lose altitude with power setting left alone and lose altitude with steep turns, and land and shut down as quick as practicable. Check very careful your exhaust for cracks, your carbs are not covered in exhaust grunge by chance, are they? Let us know resolve. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:04:23 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Europa-List: 912S engine vibration --> Europa-List message posted by: Hello Richard "I am experiencing a slight vibration whilst at cruise speed / rev's." "Any idea's?" Have a look at: http://www.rotaxservice.com/rotax_tips/rotax_vibration.htm Have a look at causes of vibration and troubleshooting. You will need to install Microsoft PowerPoint Viewer, free on that link if Powerpoint will not open as was the case with my version. You need to download the ppt, then open the viewer, and open the ppt through the viewer. Does operating on 1 igniton then the other change things? You said you adjusted your carb sync. Did you make absolute certain that the routing of your cables is not creating lost motion due to flexing of the cables? How about the bug nuts perhaps being overtightened (bug nuts are the cylinder in the carb linkage arm that you thread the cable through and tighten the screw to hold the cable) if the cylinder is not able to rotate free it can cause carbs to become out of sync, just like the hysteriousis caused by flexing of cables. You check careful no cable too close to heat and got damaged? Did you replace the float pins as per the bulletin? If you think carbs are perhaps a bit rich, turn off your fuel selector in cruise, when bowls go low mixture will get leaner, best do it only for an instant, turn off fuel, if it gets better, pull power and turn on selector, go land and trouble shoot rich. If it has no change, the split second it begins to get rough, or if you have a EGT and you see going high, pull power, and turn on selector. I have no first hand experience with a Europa, but the BD5 used to adjust mixture (leaner) by having a needle valve control flow into the 3 carbs of a Zenoah! It is possable that if you are good with fiddly things you could actual restrict flow enough with selector to prolong the good running to be sure. Did you check to make absolute sure the prop blades are in good shape, that they are tracking precise and that the angles are exact? The spinner is tracking true, tight and no severe cracks? Did you check to see if your undercarriage mounting frame is cracked> Inspect motor mounts, tight and the motor mount and mounting ring OK. Are your both your carb float bowl vents in good shape, no kinks and run to ambient air? Fly at vibration speed for a while, land and check plugs for color? Best to pull power quit engine and deadstick but if not wanting to do that, lose altitude with power setting left alone and lose altitude with steep turns, and land and shut down as quick as practicable. Check very careful your exhaust for cracks, your carbs are not covered in exhaust grunge by chance, are they? Let us know resolve. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:04:23 PM PST US From: "Belinda Glover" Subject: Re: Europa-List: engine failure due to filters --> Europa-List message posted by: "Belinda Glover" Peter, I had the replacement Yellow date stamped black fuel pipe supplied F.O.C. by Europa go exactly the same way as the non date stamped first one. The aircraft had been filled with fuel (since there is no water trap)and left standing for some weeks waiting on PFA paperwork and the fuel ate its way through a full fuel pipe! I sent the original back to Europa for them to examine but never got any feedback. When the second pipe did the same thing and the fuel was again found on opening the cockpit, sat in the starboard baggage bay, I decided that I would have to source my own pipe. In both cases the pipe had embrittled and cracked right though where the fuel sat in the lowest part of the pipe. On removal and cutting the pipe, the inner fuel proof lining was loose and disintegrated. There were lots of small rubber particles which forced me to flush the tank. It sounds like you might have a similar problem. Regards Gary McKirdy NSI Subaru 75hrs TT Crashed by previous owner @50hrs Re-built by me, just Re-crashed by me, deciding on second re-build!+- 4000 build and rebuild hrs! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 10:11 PM > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Rees" > > Nigel - Thanks for your words on engine failures - in the early days of us > flying it G-MFHI suffered a partial engine failure - the trouble was > isolated to the filter being clogged with fibers. I presume that these were > latent from when the AC was built - I guess at the time of the failure, the > filters were the original ones and the logbook had about 30 hours or so (we > didn't build the AC so can't say for sure but the logbooks show no record of > them being changed). > > Some 150 hours later, we're still forced to change the filters very > regularly (we clean them about ever 5 flight hours!) - we're getting small > brown particles coming though and being trapped by the filters. We're at > something of a loss as to what these particles are - we've changed all of > the fuel pipes from the filters backwards. The only hose that hasn't been > touched since new is the filler hose. > > Have you heard any instances of this hose breaking down and edpositing bits > into the fuel? Do you think that as a matter of course, given that this hose > is some 10 years old now, replace it. If so, any suggestions of the best > solution - Europa are unable to supply one and have no interest in doing so. > > Any comments / suggestions would be most welcome. > > Peter > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:50:44 PM PST US From: "Sven den Boer" Subject: Europa-List: Europa for Sale All, Putting my Bird up for Sale, I am moving to a 4 seater. http://www.planecheck.com/?ent=da&id=6058 Sven den Boer A168 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:01:54 PM PST US From: BEBERRY@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Fuel Filters Bob, I have the same ste up and it seems to work very well. The filters are easily accessible and take only minutes to check. I see no reason to add any complications. The a/c has 140 hours and no problems. Patrick ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:53:06 PM PST US From: Kim Prout Subject: Re: Europa-List: 912S engine vibration Hello Richard! I noticed that the replies to your vibration inquiry included everything external. My 912, at about 400 hours started developing a significant vibration that drove me nuts until I sent in the propeller speed reduction assembly in for service. Upon disassembly, I noticed that the primary gear set from the crankshaft to the driving dog was worn. Whatever frequency was associated with that apparently translated to low frequency vibration outpu t to the gearbox and engine. I replaced the gear set in addition to the usual servicing of the gearbox and this made the engine smooth again. An internal problem, not external. I don=B9t know how many hours you have on your Rotax and if you have serviced the gearbox at the recommended 200 hour intervals but this can make a significant difference and has proven out in other Europas with same complaint. Good Luck and ... Happy Skies! kp