---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/07/06: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:21 AM - Re: engine failure due to filters (G-IANI) 2. 03:12 AM - DOTH Sherburn-in-Elmet Tue8th (Paddy Clarke) 3. 04:06 AM - Re: DOTH Sherburn-in-Elmet Tue8th (Richard Iddon) 4. 04:42 AM - Re: L.A. to Oshkosh 2006 and back (Kingsley Hurst) 5. 05:20 AM - Re: DOTH Sherburn-in-Elmet Tue8th (Trevpond@aol.com) 6. 05:28 AM - Re: Stalls and spins (nigel charles) 7. 07:14 AM - Re: stalls and spins (Mark Burton) 8. 07:51 AM - Heaven's sake (Fergus Kyle) 9. 07:54 AM - Re: Re: stalls and spins (BEBERRY@aol.com) 10. 09:02 AM - Re: Re: stalls and spins (Karl Heindl) 11. 09:30 AM - Re: Heaven's sake (ivor.phillips) 12. 10:35 AM - Re: Re: stalls and spins (nigel charles) 13. 10:35 AM - Captain's choice (Fergus Kyle) 14. 10:49 AM - Re: Re: stalls and spins (nigel charles) 15. 01:26 PM - Re: 912S engine vibration (Kim Prout) 16. 01:26 PM - Re: Re: stalls and spins (JEFF ROBERTS) 17. 01:33 PM - Re: Heaven's sake (Kim Prout) 18. 02:51 PM - Re: 912S engine vibration (Richard Iddon) 19. 03:56 PM - Re: L.A. to Oshkosh 2006 and back (Fred Klein) 20. 06:28 PM - Re: Cylinder cracks on 914? (SPurpura@aol.com) 21. 10:22 PM - Re: Re: stalls and spins (William Mills) 22. 10:27 PM - Re: DOTH Sherburn-in-Elmet Tue8th (William Mills) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:21:45 AM PST US From: "G-IANI" Subject: RE: Europa-List: engine failure due to filters --> Europa-List message posted by: "G-IANI" Nigel Charles wrote " The bayonet fit version is the most difficult to remove and refit due to the tight tolerances of the parts and the seal. This is made easier with a smear of grease between the parts in the region of the seal before refitting." Just one thing to add to Nigel's excellent summary. The Mini gascolator (bayonet fit) can be a job to remove but this is due to the Viton "O" ring being stretched. So fit a new vitron ring at the (cost of 1.65 GBP each so get some spares) and your troubles are solved. Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear) e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:12:51 AM PST US From: Paddy Clarke Subject: Europa-List: DOTH Sherburn-in-Elmet Tue8th --> Europa-List message posted by: Paddy Clarke Hi Folks, How about Sherburn-in-Elmet, W of Selby,Yorks., for a DOTH tomorrow ( Tue. 8th ). There seems to be lots of runways, and the food is reported to be good. Voucher in Flyer - 1200 ish. Cheers, Paddy Do Not Archive Paddy Clarke Europa XS - 404 G-KIMM ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:06:00 AM PST US From: "Richard Iddon" Subject: RE: Europa-List: DOTH Sherburn-in-Elmet Tue8th --> Europa-List message posted by: "Richard Iddon" Sounds good Paddy. I will do my best to be there. Richard G-RIXS Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paddy Clarke Sent: 07 August 2006 11:11 Subject: Europa-List: DOTH Sherburn-in-Elmet Tue8th --> Europa-List message posted by: Paddy Clarke Hi Folks, How about Sherburn-in-Elmet, W of Selby,Yorks., for a DOTH tomorrow ( Tue. 8th ). There seems to be lots of runways, and the food is reported to be good. Voucher in Flyer - 1200 ish. Cheers, Paddy Do Not Archive Paddy Clarke Europa XS - 404 G-KIMM ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:42:41 AM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: Re: Europa-List: L.A. to Oshkosh 2006 and back --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" > Climb rate was 450 ft/min which I mainly attribute to the newly installed > cold-air feed system. Hello Thomas, Are you saying you are conscious of a better climb rate all round since the installation of the cold air feed ? I know the cold air must be better but just HOW noticeable is my question. You see, I have a plain vanilla 912 as well and if I ever get to fly it, I'm trying to convince myself that with the cold air intake and a constant speed prop, I'll be able to suck all those 912S's and 914's up and spit them out the exhaust !! Well there's no harm in wishful thinking is there ?? Cheers Kingsley in Oz. do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:20:05 AM PST US From: Trevpond@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: DOTH Sherburn-in-Elmet Tue8th Hi Paddy, Should be there, look forward to it. Trev Pond ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:28:17 AM PST US From: "nigel charles" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Stalls and spins --> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" It is important to realise with all stall warning systems whether they are giving you warnings above a nominated speed or whether they are giving you a warning that you are approaching a critical AOA. For example 5kts warning above a critical AOA is better than 15kts warning above a speed which is the wings level one 'g' stall speed. If you bank 45deg in level flight the stall speed increases by about 40 per cent so if your wings level stall speed was 40kts at 45deg bank it becomes about 56kts. Thus in this case a speed warning of 15kts before the stall becomes no warning at all whereas a conventional stall warner or AOA system will still provide the 5kt warning Nigel Charles ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:54 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: stalls and spins From: "Mark Burton" --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mark Burton" [quote="nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk"]It is important to realise with all stall warning systems whether they are giving you warnings above a nominated speed or whether they are giving you a warning that you are approaching a critical AOA. For example 5kts warning above a critical AOA is better than 15kts warning above a speed which is the wings level one 'g' stall speed. If you bank 45deg in level flight the stall speed increases by about 40 per cent so if your wings level stall speed was 40kts at 45deg bank it becomes about 56kts. Thus in this case a speed warning of 15kts before the stall becomes no warning at all whereas a conventional stall warner or AOA system will still provide the 5kt warning Nigel Charles[/quote] I think you will find that the stall speed increase is proportional to the square root of the G loading and so in your example above the stall speed increases by 20% to 48kts rather than by 40% to 56kts. Nonetheless, the point you are making is a good one and I have already started developing the next generation of SmartASS that will take into account the G loading so as to provide the pilot with more warning margin. Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53048#53048 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:51:51 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Europa-List: Heaven's sake --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" Please, where does one find the required torque for the banjo fitting under the sump of a two-year-old 941UL? I HAVE looked, but somehow cannot find the reference - Lockwood or Rotax........... Ferg Kyle Europa A064 914 Classic ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:54:28 AM PST US From: BEBERRY@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: stalls and spins I really like the idea of the 'Smartass' and agree with the concept of AOA being a better indication than IAS. The actual stall speed is easily calculated by a simple triangle of forces i.e. the amount of 'lift' which is keeping the aircraft in the air as opposed to that which is inducing a turn. Incidentally 'when I were a lad!', being rash enough to fly in Sea Vixens, we commonly practised spoken IAS by the observer on the approach, which was also transmitted to Flyco at the same time. The approach speed was 128 knots with normal landing all up weight . Being within 1 knot of that speed was essential. 2 knots too slow and you likely hit the stern of the carrier and you were dead. 2 knots too fast and you would 'float ' over the wires and have to get power on quickly to go around again. Not amusing at night on a pitching deck! Patrick ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:02 AM PST US From: "Karl Heindl" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: stalls and spins --> Europa-List message posted by: "Karl Heindl" Okay, but how does all this relate to the standard stall warner as supplied by Europa. An adjustable low-pressure switch which goes ON when pressure changes to vacuum at the bottom of the leading edge. Very simple, cheap, and should work at all speeds and attitudes, except maybe when inverted. Am I wrong here ? Karl >From: BEBERRY@aol.com >To: europa-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: stalls and spins >Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 10:52:56 EDT > >I really like the idea of the 'Smartass' and agree with the concept of AOA >being a better indication than IAS. The actual stall speed is easily >calculated by a simple triangle of forces i.e. the amount of 'lift' which >is keeping >the aircraft in the air as opposed to that which is inducing a turn. > >Incidentally 'when I were a lad!', being rash enough to fly in Sea Vixens, >we commonly practised spoken IAS by the observer on the approach, which was >also transmitted to Flyco at the same time. The approach speed was 128 >knots >with normal landing all up weight . Being within 1 knot of that speed was >essential. 2 knots too slow and you likely hit the stern of the carrier >and you >were dead. 2 knots too fast and you would 'float ' over the wires and >have >to get power on quickly to go around again. > >Not amusing at night on a pitching deck! > >Patrick ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:35 AM PST US From: "ivor.phillips" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Heaven's sake Ferg This should be the relevant document! I have also sent it direct in case it gets stripped of Matt's forum, Please, where does one find the required torque for the banjo fitting under the sump of a two-year-old 941UL? I HAVE looked, but somehow cannot find the reference - Lockwood or Rotax........... ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:45 AM PST US From: "nigel charles" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: stalls and spins --> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" You are quite right. A 40 per cent increase should be for a 60deg bank turn. My mistake. Nigel -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Burton Sent: 07 August 2006 15:13 Subject: Europa-List: Re: stalls and spins --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mark Burton" [quote="nwcmc(at)tiscali.co.uk"]It is important to realise with all stall warning systems whether they are giving you warnings above a nominated speed or whether they are giving you a warning that you are approaching a critical AOA. For example 5kts warning above a critical AOA is better than 15kts warning above a speed which is the wings level one 'g' stall speed. If you bank 45deg in level flight the stall speed increases by about 40 per cent so if your wings level stall speed was 40kts at 45deg bank it becomes about 56kts. Thus in this case a speed warning of 15kts before the stall becomes no warning at all whereas a conventional stall warner or AOA system will still provide the 5kt warning Nigel Charles[/quote] I think you will find that the stall speed increase is proportional to the square root of the G loading and so in your example above the stall speed increases by 20% to 48kts rather than by 40% to 56kts. Nonetheless, the point you are making is a good one and I have already started developing the next generation of SmartASS that will take into account the G loading so as to provide the pilot with more warning margin. Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=53048#53048 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:45 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Europa-List: Captain's choice --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" Cheers, In one daily release of the EAA newspaper at Oshkosh a photogragh shows two traffic controllers overseeing the close-in final approach of a Cessna. The caption reads, "high-wing, rock your wings......" - and there it shows the aircraft with some bank on. in response. The caption then goes out to point out the technical aspects of supervising traffic in the busiest circuit that day. All very fine, since choked traffic needs close control. However, if that low-time aviator has some rudder on (for whatever reason), and he banks the wrong way at a critical moment in enthusiasm, we have the makings of a drastic result. That's what one net correspondent last week meant by controlling the aircraft first and communicating after. It's always wise to know you control the aircraft, ATC control the traffic. As one wag said, "I'll close now. I hear Matron in the hall." Ferg Kyle Europa A064 914 Classic do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:49:54 AM PST US From: "nigel charles" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: stalls and spins --> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" The simple standard stall warner, like the small vane type that some of us have, works on AOA so should always give a timely warning before the stall whatever the bank or 'g' loading provided they are set up accurately in the first place. However they are just like a switch either on or off. A calibrated AOA gauge with audio as well gives several stages of warnings both audio and visual. Monitoring an AOA gauge during less critical flight situations helps to educate the pilot what the margin is from the stall for different loadings. Which you choose is up to you. Either way I think it is a wise precaution to have at least the simple version as an extra layer of safety protection. Nigel Charles -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl Sent: 07 August 2006 17:00 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: stalls and spins --> Europa-List message posted by: "Karl Heindl" Okay, but how does all this relate to the standard stall warner as supplied by Europa. An adjustable low-pressure switch which goes ON when pressure changes to vacuum at the bottom of the leading edge. Very simple, cheap, and should work at all speeds and attitudes, except maybe when inverted. Am I wrong here ? Karl >From: BEBERRY@aol.com >To: europa-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: stalls and spins >Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 10:52:56 EDT > >I really like the idea of the 'Smartass' and agree with the concept of AOA >being a better indication than IAS. The actual stall speed is easily >calculated by a simple triangle of forces i.e. the amount of 'lift' which >is keeping >the aircraft in the air as opposed to that which is inducing a turn. > >Incidentally 'when I were a lad!', being rash enough to fly in Sea Vixens, >we commonly practised spoken IAS by the observer on the approach, which was >also transmitted to Flyco at the same time. The approach speed was 128 >knots >with normal landing all up weight . Being within 1 knot of that speed was >essential. 2 knots too slow and you likely hit the stern of the carrier >and you >were dead. 2 knots too fast and you would 'float ' over the wires and >have >to get power on quickly to go around again. > >Not amusing at night on a pitching deck! > >Patrick ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:26:59 PM PST US From: Kim Prout Subject: Re: Europa-List: 912S engine vibration The gearbox should be serviced by qualified personnel with proper equipment .. Having said that, the equipment needed is a hydraulic press with the correc t mandrel to compress the disc springs that are used to =B3pre-load=B2 the assembly against the driving dog hub. You can check the pre-load as part of the normal inspection process. Lock the crankshaft in place and use a sprin g scale to pull the propeller back and forth to determine the sliding force needed. The newest bulletin regarding this states the friction pre-load to be higher than before. I can=B9t remember the bulletin numbers but check out the Rotax list for that. If you have a slipper clutch, the check is similar but I believe the pre-load values are different. You can get the exploded views for the parts on line or check out the parts manual. The overhaul manual provides details also. When the gearbox is removed, you can easily check the condition of the primary gear set. Be sure to use the approved engine oil(s) that contain a gearing additive. Rotax does not allow you to add your own gear oil to the motor oil. Hope this helps! kp ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:26:59 PM PST US From: JEFF ROBERTS Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: stalls and spins --> Europa-List message posted by: JEFF ROBERTS I agree! The issue is warning. My standard Europa stall warning sounds two radio shack buzzers and light front & center up top of the wind screen. It works great! Set it for what ever speed above stall you want and it blows you out of the cabin when you get slow. Jeff A258 Flying. Do Not Archive. On Aug 7, 2006, at 10:59 AM, Karl Heindl wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Karl Heindl" > > > Okay, but how does all this relate to the standard stall warner as > supplied by Europa. An adjustable low-pressure switch which goes ON > when pressure changes to vacuum at the bottom of the leading edge. > Very simple, cheap, and should work at all speeds and attitudes, > except maybe when inverted. Am I wrong here ? > > Karl > > >> From: BEBERRY@aol.com >> To: europa-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: stalls and spins >> Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 10:52:56 EDT >> >> I really like the idea of the 'Smartass' and agree with the concept >> of AOA >> being a better indication than IAS. The actual stall speed is easily >> calculated by a simple triangle of forces i.e. the amount of 'lift' >> which is keeping >> the aircraft in the air as opposed to that which is inducing a turn. >> >> Incidentally 'when I were a lad!', being rash enough to fly in Sea >> Vixens, >> we commonly practised spoken IAS by the observer on the approach, >> which was >> also transmitted to Flyco at the same time. The approach speed was >> 128 knots >> with normal landing all up weight . Being within 1 knot of that >> speed was >> essential. 2 knots too slow and you likely hit the stern of the >> carrier and you >> were dead. 2 knots too fast and you would 'float ' over the wires >> and have >> to get power on quickly to go around again. >> >> Not amusing at night on a pitching deck! >> >> Patrick > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:33:37 PM PST US From: Kim Prout Subject: Re: Europa-List: Heaven's sake --> Europa-List message posted by: Kim Prout Typically, all the torque specifications are included in the Rotax Spare Parts Manual along with the part numbers associated with the exploded views. kp ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:51:14 PM PST US From: "Richard Iddon" Subject: RE: Europa-List: 912S engine vibration Thanks Kim. I did check the friction torque at 200 hours as per Rotax manual and I also have a 'tame' Rotax engineer who lives close to me so I have checked with him. I am intending to re check the friction torque next time I have the lid off the engine. I use Shell VSX4 engine oil which is a motorbike oil as recommended by Rotax which is suitable for engine and gearbox lube.. Thanks for the feedback. Regards, Richard. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kim Prout Sent: 07 August 2006 21:28 Subject: Re: Europa-List: 912S engine vibration The gearbox should be serviced by qualified personnel with proper equipment. Having said that, the equipment needed is a hydraulic press with the correct mandrel to compress the disc springs that are used to "pre-load" the assembly against the driving dog hub. You can check the pre-load as part of the normal inspection process. Lock the crankshaft in place and use a spring scale to pull the propeller back and forth to determine the sliding force needed. The newest bulletin regarding this states the friction pre-load to be higher than before. I can't remember the bulletin numbers but check out the Rotax list for that. If you have a slipper clutch, the check is similar but I believe the pre-load values are different. You can get the exploded views for the parts on line or check out the parts manual. The overhaul manual provides details also. When the gearbox is removed, you can easily check the condition of the primary gear set. Be sure to use the approved engine oil(s) that contain a gearing additive. Rotax does not allow you to add your own gear oil to the motor oil. Hope this helps! kp ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:56:33 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: L.A. to Oshkosh 2006 and back From: Fred Klein --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein Thomas...see indented comments and questions below: On Sunday, August 6, 2006, at 09:32 PM, Thomas Scherer wrote: > My eMail was actually written with the intent to re-concentrate on the > joys of building and flying the Europa. Thank you for accentuating the positive! >> Lots of cracked Rotax cores and stalls lately. Without doubt, the stall discussions are a consequence of our group's attempts to get our arms around Cliff & Betty Shaw's tragic accident, and as this occurs I trust that posts on "stalls and spins" will taper off. As to "cracked Rotax cores", I'm only aware of a single isolated case. > I bought my Rotax 912 in 1995 and it has been in my Europa Classic > Trigear since. > > I have in the entire time changed spark plugs twice and the rubber in > the carburators once. I truly belive it is a very solid, tried and > honest design. The same core is used on the 912, 912S and 914. I > figure the 912 does have the most safety margin and least wear. It is > imperative to keep it cool (I have a dual cooler setup). Aha...perhaps (based on forum postings) the secret to your success may lie in part in your engine being the 912, thus avoiding the component stress and sensitivity to the higher compression 912S and the complexity of the 914T? > I always remind people of the Dykins design wing which is made for 120 > kn and does perform poorly at 160 kn and higher. Not having the Dykins book, but recalling the Europa literature stating "200 mph top speed", could you elaborate on your statement that the Europa wing performs poorly at 160kn and higher? Thanks, Fred A194 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:28:41 PM PST US From: SPurpura@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Cylinder cracks on 914? About 2 weeks ago when the OAT was over 100=B0F I had an over temp alarm on my EFIS for about 1 minute before the temps dropped back into normal range, the next flight was 21 days later for 1.2 hrs. & the engine seemed a little rou gh. I pulled the plugs for a check & the lower sparkplug on the # 2 cylinder was full of coolant,although no noticeable loss of coolant. Got to be a crack in the head right? ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:52 PM PST US From: "William Mills" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: stalls and spins --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills" I have the Europa stall-warner as well as Mark's Smartass and I believe they both provide a different service. The stall-warner provides me with an alarm at about 5 kts above the stall, so I can instantly unload the wing and apply more power if necessary, whereas the Smartass helps me to monitor my speed in critical situations and /or fly accurately at a selected speed without looking at the panel. Hope that helps, William ----- Original Message ----- From: "nigel charles" Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 6:48 PM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: stalls and spins > --> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" > > The simple standard stall warner, like the small vane type that some of > us have, works on AOA so should always give a timely warning before the > stall whatever the bank or 'g' loading provided they are set up > accurately in the first place. However they are just like a switch > either on or off. A calibrated AOA gauge with audio as well gives > several stages of warnings both audio and visual. Monitoring an AOA > gauge during less critical flight situations helps to educate the pilot > what the margin is from the stall for different loadings. Which you > choose is up to you. Either way I think it is a wise precaution to have > at least the simple version as an extra layer of safety protection. > > Nigel Charles > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl > Sent: 07 August 2006 17:00 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: stalls and spins > > --> Europa-List message posted by: "Karl Heindl" > > > Okay, but how does all this relate to the standard stall warner as > supplied > by Europa. An adjustable low-pressure switch which goes ON when pressure > > changes to vacuum at the bottom of the leading edge. Very simple, cheap, > and > should work at all speeds and attitudes, except maybe when inverted. Am > I > wrong here ? > > Karl > > >>From: BEBERRY@aol.com >>To: europa-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: stalls and spins >>Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 10:52:56 EDT >> >>I really like the idea of the 'Smartass' and agree with the concept of > AOA >>being a better indication than IAS. The actual stall speed is easily >>calculated by a simple triangle of forces i.e. the amount of 'lift' > which >>is keeping >>the aircraft in the air as opposed to that which is inducing a turn. >> >>Incidentally 'when I were a lad!', being rash enough to fly in Sea > Vixens, >>we commonly practised spoken IAS by the observer on the approach, which > was >>also transmitted to Flyco at the same time. The approach speed was 128 > >>knots >>with normal landing all up weight . Being within 1 knot of that speed > was >>essential. 2 knots too slow and you likely hit the stern of the > carrier >>and you >>were dead. 2 knots too fast and you would 'float ' over the wires and > >>have >>to get power on quickly to go around again. >> >>Not amusing at night on a pitching deck! >> >>Patrick > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:27:19 PM PST US From: "William Mills" Subject: Re: Europa-List: DOTH Sherburn-in-Elmet Tue8th --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills" See you there, Paddy. Best wishes, William Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paddy Clarke" Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 11:10 AM Subject: Europa-List: DOTH Sherburn-in-Elmet Tue8th > --> Europa-List message posted by: Paddy Clarke > > Hi Folks, > How about Sherburn-in-Elmet, W of Selby,Yorks., for a DOTH tomorrow > ( Tue. 8th ). There seems to be lots of runways, and the food is > reported to be good. Voucher in Flyer - 1200 ish. > Cheers, Paddy > Do Not Archive > > Paddy Clarke > > Europa XS - 404 G-KIMM > > > > > > > > > > > > >