Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:23 AM - Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (nigel charles)
2. 02:34 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Richard Holder)
3. 02:54 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Alan Burrows)
4. 04:28 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (nigel charles)
5. 04:30 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (ivor.phillips)
6. 06:02 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Alan Burrows)
7. 06:05 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Mike Baker)
8. 06:33 AM - Re: First flight LN-SKJ (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
9. 06:48 AM - Nyeogel 744VH (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com)
10. 07:06 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (David Watts)
11. 07:22 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Trevpond@aol.com)
12. 07:23 AM - Re: Nyeogel 744VH (Jack Hilditch)
13. 07:51 AM - Re: Nyeogel 744VH (Rman)
14. 07:51 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Rman)
15. 08:11 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk)
16. 09:55 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Rob Housman)
17. 09:55 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (nwcmc@tiscali.co.uk)
18. 10:04 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Gilles Thesee)
19. 10:43 AM - Re: First flight LN-SKJ (Rowland Carson)
20. 10:44 AM - Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Richard Holder)
21. 11:03 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Jos Okhuijsen)
22. 11:19 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (europa flugzeug fabrik)
23. 11:24 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (danbish)
24. 11:27 AM - Re: First flight LN-SKJ (Jos Okhuijsen)
25. 11:31 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Richard Churchill-Coleman)
26. 11:52 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Graham Singleton)
27. 11:55 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Graham Singleton)
28. 12:00 PM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Graham Singleton)
29. 12:04 PM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Gilles Thesee)
30. 12:27 PM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Mike Parkin)
31. 12:28 PM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (karelvranken)
32. 12:38 PM - Re: First flight LN-SKJ (karelvranken)
33. 01:02 PM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Peter Rees)
34. 01:31 PM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (R.C.Harrison)
35. 02:18 PM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Rob Housman)
36. 02:47 PM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Rob Housman)
37. 11:24 PM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown interest in producing
a heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version of the aircraft.
Before they move forward and design the product they want to find out
how much of a market there is for such a device. Obviously it is only
worth their while if enough owners would buy one. Any one who is
interested should email me so I can give the manufacturer an idea of the
numbers involved.
Regards
Nigel Charles
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
nigel charles wrote:
> The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown
> interest in producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted
> to the XS version of the aircraft. Before they move
> forward and design the product they want to find out
> how much of a market there is for such a device.
> Obviously it is only worth their while if enough owners
> would buy one. Any one who is interested should email
> me so I can give the manufacturer an idea of the
> numbers involved.
Hi Nigel
I would certainly be interested. I assume that there is
(or will be) a standard mod to allow heating to be
provided into the cockpit.
See what possibilities have opened up because you went for
the XS FWF option :-D
Richard
G-OWWW High Cross
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows" <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
Hi Nigel
Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a heat exchanger for? I am
just in the process of fitting an intercooler that is used by several U.S.
owners in hot climates to keep engine temps down. Is your idea similar, if
so I have one already that was designed for the XS and could be used to
copy if required.
All the Best
Alan Burrows
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
>
> nigel charles wrote:
>
>> The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown
>> interest in producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted
>> to the XS version of the aircraft. Before they move
>> forward and design the product they want to find out
>> how much of a market there is for such a device.
>> Obviously it is only worth their while if enough owners
>> would buy one. Any one who is interested should email
>> me so I can give the manufacturer an idea of the
>> numbers involved.
>
> Hi Nigel
>
> I would certainly be interested. I assume that there is
> (or will be) a standard mod to allow heating to be
> provided into the cockpit.
>
> See what possibilities have opened up because you went for
> the XS FWF option :-D
>
> Richard
> G-OWWW High Cross
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" <nwcmc@tiscali.co.uk>
The heat exchanger is for cabin heat.
Nigel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan
Burrows
Sent: 15 September 2006 10:54
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows"
<alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
Hi Nigel
Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a heat exchanger for? I
am
just in the process of fitting an intercooler that is used by several
U.S.
owners in hot climates to keep engine temps down. Is your idea similar,
if
so I have one already that was designed for the XS and could be used to
copy if required.
All the Best
Alan Burrows
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder
<rholder@avnet.co.uk>
>
> nigel charles wrote:
>
>> The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown
>> interest in producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted
>> to the XS version of the aircraft. Before they move
>> forward and design the product they want to find out
>> how much of a market there is for such a device.
>> Obviously it is only worth their while if enough owners
>> would buy one. Any one who is interested should email
>> me so I can give the manufacturer an idea of the
>> numbers involved.
>
> Hi Nigel
>
> I would certainly be interested. I assume that there is
> (or will be) a standard mod to allow heating to be
> provided into the cockpit.
>
> See what possibilities have opened up because you went for
> the XS FWF option :-D
>
> Richard
> G-OWWW High Cross
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "ivor.phillips" <ivor.phillips@ntlworld.com>
Hi ALAN
I Believe Nigel is talking about a Cabin heat exchanger, To use the hot air
from the exhaust for cockpit warming,
Regards
Ivor
Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a heat exchanger for?
Message 6
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| Subject: | Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows" <alan@kestrel-insurance.com>
Thanks Ivor
Ah now I see... whats wrong with a good pair of socks that what I want to
know?? :-)
Alan
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "ivor.phillips"
> <ivor.phillips@ntlworld.com>
>
> Hi ALAN
> I Believe Nigel is talking about a Cabin heat exchanger, To use the hot
> air
> from the exhaust for cockpit warming,
>
> Regards
> Ivor
>
>
> Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a heat exchanger for?
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Mike Baker <galahav@yahoo.com>
that's been a problem for me and the rotax. no
manufactured source of cabin heat and windshield
demister. i am very interested in that item. specs
please.
mike baker
--- nigel charles <nwcmc@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown
> interest in producing
> a heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version
> of the aircraft.
> Before they move forward and design the product they
> want to find out
> how much of a market there is for such a device.
> Obviously it is only
> worth their while if enough owners would buy one.
> Any one who is
> interested should email me so I can give the
> manufacturer an idea of the
> numbers involved.
>
> Regards
>
> Nigel Charles
>
__________________________________________________
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: First flight LN-SKJ |
Hi, Nev,
Last time I checked, the price per ounce on the London market was USD
577.80. Balancing the scale for your weight would therefore be a heap
worth USD 1,987,632.
Yeah, I would say that's about right, but one does not always get paid
what one is worth, you know - - - -
All the best,
Svein
----- Thanks for your kind comment '' worth my weight in Gold '' , how
much is an ounce worth ?.......... I weigh 3440 ounces !
Cheers,
Nev.
Message 9
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Greetings all,
Anybody found a source on this side of the pond for Nyogel 744VH?
I've done several Google searches and came up empty.
Regards,
John Lawton
Dunlap, TN
N245E - Flying - 27.5 hours and lovin' every minute!
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
I know Peter Kember is interested.
The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown interest in
producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version of the
aircraft. Before they move forward and design the product they want to
find out how much of a market there is for such a device. Obviously it
is only worth their while if enough owners would buy one. Any one who is
interested should email me so I can give the manufacturer an idea of the
numbers involved.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
Hi Guys,
Do you think he would make one for the 914 engined aircraft?
Trev Pond
G-LINN
Message 12
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Try HYPERLINK "http://www.nyelubricants.com/"http://www.nyelubricants.com/
Jack Hilditch
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
TELEDYNMCS@aol.com
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 9:48 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Nyeogel 744VH
Greetings all,
Anybody found a source on this side of the pond for Nyogel 744VH?
I've done several Google searches and came up empty.
Regards,
John Lawton
Dunlap, TN
N245E - Flying - 27.5 hours and lovin' every minute!
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/Nav
igator?Europa-List
"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Nyeogel 744VH |
John,
Why spend the $40+. Send me your shipping address and I'll send you
enough to do the job a few times over...
Jeff
Baby Blue
do not archive
TELEDYNMCS@aol.com wrote:
> Greetings all,
>
> Anybody found a source on this side of the pond for Nyogel 744VH?
>
> I've done several Google searches and came up empty.
>
> Regards,
>
> John Lawton
> Dunlap, TN
> N245E - Flying - 27.5 hours and lovin' every minute!
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
Nigel,
Depending on cost, I'd certainly be interested.
Jeff
Baby Blue
nigel charles wrote:
> The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown interest in
> producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version of the
> aircraft. Before they move forward and design the product they want to
> find out how much of a market there is for such a device. Obviously it
> is only worth their while if enough owners would buy one. Any one who
> is interested should email me so I can give the manufacturer an idea
> of the numbers involved.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Nigel Charles
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk" <danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk>
Hi Nigel,
As I do most of my flying in winter, due to having a
seasonal business I guess you better put me down for one.
Danny G-c.e.r.i
Nigel charles wrote:
> The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown interest in
> producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version of the
> aircraft. Before they move forward and design the product they want to
> find out how much of a market there is for such a device. Obviously it
> is only worth their while if enough owners would buy one. Any one who
> is interested should email me so I can give the manufacturer an idea
> of the numbers involved.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Nigel Charles
>
>*
>
>
>*
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
Perhaps I misunderstand what is being offered, but the word "exhaust"
suggests to me that this device would be a heater muff added to the Rotax
exhaust plumbing. If so, why add the weight and risk of a carbon monoxide
sucking muff when there is already ample warm (hot?) air available aft of
the water and oil coolers?
What the Europa factory forgot was the necessary ducting to get warmed air
into the cockpit. Anyone interested can contact me off list for the details
of how I ducted warm air from aft of the two coolers, unheated air from the
914 turbo air inlet, and mixed (or not, as desired) the two prior to being
ducted into the cockpit.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
Airframe complete
Irvine, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of nigel charles
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 2:21 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa
The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown interest in producing a
heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version of the aircraft. Before
they move forward and design the product they want to find out how much of a
market there is for such a device. Obviously it is only worth their while if
enough owners would buy one. Any one who is interested should email me so I
can give the manufacturer an idea of the numbers involved.
Regards
Nigel Charles
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: nwcmc@tiscali.co.uk
I am not familiar on how different the 914 exhaust system is from the 912/912S.
If a heat exchanger can be designed to suite both engine variants then there
isn't a problem. However if it needs to be different I suspect that CKT will
work on the 912/912S version first.
Nigel Charles
>-- Original Message --
>From: Trevpond@aol.com
>Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 10:22:10 EDT
>Subject: Re: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa
>To: europa-list@matronics.com
>
>
>Hi Guys,
>
>Do you think he would make one for the 914 engined aircraft?
>
>Trev Pond
>G-LINN
___________________________________________________________
Tiscali Broadband from 14.99 with free setup!
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband/
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Rob and all,
> why add the weight and risk of a carbon monoxide sucking muff when
> there is already ample warm (hot?) air available aft of the water and
> oil coolers?
>
Right on the money.
>
>
>
> What the Europa factory forgot was the necessary ducting to get warmed
> air into the cockpit. Anyone interested can contact me off list for
> the details of how I ducted warm air from aft of the two coolers,
> unheated air from the 914 turbo air inlet, and mixed (or not, as
> desired) the two prior to being ducted into the cockpit.
>
In our 914 project, I took advantage of the warm air behind the
radiators to warm the cockpit. Simple, litght and efficient, and since
the radiator duct is separate from the engine compartment, zero CO ppm
were found during flight tests.
You need a properly designed radiator duct, though.
FWIW,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: First flight LN-SKJ |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson <rowil@clara.net>
At 2006-09-12 18:32 +0200 Sidsel & Svein Johnsen wrote:
>I took my Europa XS trigear on its first flight
Svein - congratulations, somewhat belated.
>So the stats, Rowland
Thanks very much, very efficient. From now on, everyone will have to
get used to directing status updates to the new Membership Secretary,
Brian Davies. His internet connexion is wonky at present, but I'm
sure he'll catch up with this soon.
regards
Rowland
--
| Rowland Carson (former Europa Club Membership Secretary)
| e-mail <rowil@clara.net>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
Rob Housman wrote:
> Perhaps I misunderstand what is being offered, but the
> word exhaust suggests to me that this device would be
> a heater muff added to the Rotax exhaust plumbing. If
> so, why add the weight and risk of a carbon monoxide
> sucking muff when there is already ample warm (hot?)
> air available aft of the water and oil coolers?
> What the Europa factory forgot was the necessary
> ducting to get warmed air into the cockpit. Anyone
> interested can contact me off list for the details of
> how I ducted warm air from aft of the two coolers,
> unheated air from the 914 turbo air inlet, and mixed
> (or not, as desired) the two prior to being ducted into
> the cockpit.
Here in the UK any cabin air must be sourced from outside
the cowling. Without any chance of under-cowling air
getting in there.
The rationale is that if there is an engine fire then any
under-cowling air pick-up will pick up smoke and flames
and these are undesirable inside the cockpit.
Any heater/demist using an exhaust muff must have the muff
fed from outside the cowling and then led through the
firewall. And then the CAA/PFA will want some type of
integrity test or a solid blanking off plate on the
firewall also.
The "warm air aft of the water & oil coolers" route would
also have a problem if either radiator split and hot oil
or water was streamed up your duct into the cockpit.
A long shot but that's the way the CAA looks at things and
it costs us dear :-(
In the Land of the Free you are free to risk whatever you
like as YOU have to sit in it. The CAA would like anyone
who sits in the plane to be guaranteed safety :-) Ha ha !
Just my two-penny worth.
Richard
G-OWWW
High Cross
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jos Okhuijsen" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
Hi Rob,
Why off list? My guess is that many are interested. Please post your
solution here?
I was told by a usual reliable source, that the factory tried an exhaust
muffler once. The heat was more then enough, and before Andy was able to
land, his shoes were melted to the pedals. It was really sweaty situation.
This was given as the reason why the heating option, although announced,
was never introduced. So yes, for me it will be the cooling duct if
possible :-)
Kind Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane
http:www.europaowners.org/kit600
mono xs, top on, gear in, tail wheel in, wings set, flapdrive in, tail
closed, tailwheel in, tail top in, blue stuff filled, sanded and primed,
fuel system in, doors done, windows in, sanding and filling the fuse and
wings.
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "europa flugzeug fabrik" <n3eu@comcast.net>
robh(at)hyperion-ef.us wrote:
> If so, why add the weight and risk of a carbon monoxide sucking muff when there
is already ample warm (hot?) air available aft of the water and oil coolers?
According to NTSB accident data, such accidents are very rare. One fatality in
the last 5 years, meaning one in 150 million hours, and avg age of the fleet
is now 30 years. A heater shroud arrangement is a simple inspection item annually,
if easy to remove, and exhaust can enter the cabin from other more common
leak sources like gaskets and slip joints.
Id be interested too, provided its for the 914. Theres little room around the muffler
area, and if around the exhaust pipe, those pipes are kinda small. I curious
also if anyone using the air aft of the coolers can report it works when
outside temps aloft are down near 0-deg F.
Fred F.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=61829#61829
Message 23
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| Subject: | RE: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "danbish" <n914rb@earthlink.net>
Nigel,
Depending on cost, I'd be interested as long as it is for the 914. Possible interest
in 2 kits, again depending on cost.
Dan
----------------
Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: First flight LN-SKJ |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jos Okhuijsen" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
Hi Rowland,
> Davies. His internet connexion is wonky at present, but I'm sure he'll
> catch up with this soon.
But he can allready write and read eh?
Sorry, but this does not really sound good, hope it is not typical. Can't
imagine how a secretary can do his job without pen, paper, a computer and
internet.
--
Kind Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane
http:www.europaowners.org/kit600
mono xs, top on, gear in, tail wheel in, wings set, flapdrive in, tail
closed, tailwheel in, tail top in, blue stuff filled, sanded and primed,
fuel system in, doors done, windows in, sanding and filling the fuse and
wings.
Message 25
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| Subject: | Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
Hi Nigel,
My first posting - haven't started construction yet as I have a set of MG
wings ordered for UK use and I'm awaiting certification - but I would
definitely be interested in a heat exchanger (and a cabin heat mod - Europa
please note).
regards
Richard C-Coleman
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nigel charles
Sent: 15 September 2006 10:21
Subject: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa
The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown interest in producing a
heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version of the aircraft. Before
they move forward and design the product they want to find out how much of a
market there is for such a device. Obviously it is only worth their while if
enough owners would buy one. Any one who is interested should email me so I
can give the manufacturer an idea of the numbers involved.
Regards
Nigel Charles
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Rob
imho that's the sensible, elegant way to do it. They do it this way on
the MCR Banbis too/ AFAIK it works.
Graham
Rob Housman wrote:
> What the Europa factory forgot was the necessary ducting to get warmed
> air into the cockpit. Anyone interested can contact me off list for
> the details of how I ducted warm air from aft of the two coolers,
> unheated air from the 914 turbo air inlet, and mixed (or not, as
> desired) the two prior to being ducted into the cockpit.
>
> Rob Housman
>
> A070
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Gilles
the duct needs to be properly designed for efficient, low drag cooling
too. Several XS builders did redesign the duct with noteworthy results.
Bob Berube might enlighten us if he's still listening?
Graham
Gilles Thesee wrote:
> In our 914 project, I took advantage of the warm air behind the
> radiators to warm the cockpit. Simple, litght and efficient, and since
> the radiator duct is separate from the engine compartment, zero CO ppm
> were found during flight tests.
> You need a properly designed radiator duct, though.
>
> Regards,
> Gilles Thesee
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton <grahamsingleton@btinternet.com>
Richard
The CAA is mainly interested in avoiding any possibility of being blamed
themselves. That's why they are so reluctant to be positive about so
many things
Graham
Richard Holder wrote:
> In the Land of the Free you are free to risk whatever you
> like as YOU have to sit in it. The CAA would like anyone
> who sits in the plane to be guaranteed safety :-) Ha ha !
>
> Richard
> G-OWWW
> High Cross
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Graham,
>
> the duct needs to be properly designed for efficient, low drag cooling
> too.
I sure do agree.
You'll find some details on how I designed our radiator duct :
http://contrails.free.fr/tunnel_en.php
No cooling air leaks whatsoever. In flight we can adjust the temps
within 5 C of the target temperature we choose.
Having an efficient inlet diffuser gives us plenty of high pressure 70C
air behind the radiators.
> Several XS builders did redesign the duct with noteworthy results. Bob
> Berube might enlighten us if he's still listening?
> Graham
>
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Parkin" <mikenjulie.parkin@btopenworld.com>
Not entirely true. G-JULZ has a cockpit heater based on the hot air behind
the radiators being ducted, via bulkhead shutoff valves, into the cockpit.
All PFA approved.
regards,
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Holder" <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 6:44 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
>
> Rob Housman wrote:
>
>> Perhaps I misunderstand what is being offered, but the
>> word exhaust suggests to me that this device would be
>> a heater muff added to the Rotax exhaust plumbing. If
>> so, why add the weight and risk of a carbon monoxide
>> sucking muff when there is already ample warm (hot?)
>> air available aft of the water and oil coolers?
>
>> What the Europa factory forgot was the necessary
>> ducting to get warmed air into the cockpit. Anyone
>> interested can contact me off list for the details of
>> how I ducted warm air from aft of the two coolers,
>> unheated air from the 914 turbo air inlet, and mixed
>> (or not, as desired) the two prior to being ducted into
>> the cockpit.
>
> Here in the UK any cabin air must be sourced from outside
> the cowling. Without any chance of under-cowling air
> getting in there.
>
> The rationale is that if there is an engine fire then any
> under-cowling air pick-up will pick up smoke and flames
> and these are undesirable inside the cockpit.
>
> Any heater/demist using an exhaust muff must have the muff
> fed from outside the cowling and then led through the
> firewall. And then the CAA/PFA will want some type of
> integrity test or a solid blanking off plate on the
> firewall also.
>
> The "warm air aft of the water & oil coolers" route would
> also have a problem if either radiator split and hot oil
> or water was streamed up your duct into the cockpit.
>
> A long shot but that's the way the CAA looks at things and
> it costs us dear :-(
>
> In the Land of the Free you are free to risk whatever you
> like as YOU have to sit in it. The CAA would like anyone
> who sits in the plane to be guaranteed safety :-) Ha ha !
>
> Just my two-penny worth.
>
> Richard
> G-OWWW
> High Cross
>
>
> --
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
Nigel,
Every builder, I think, is interested in cabin heating if....if.
Technicaly it has to be simple. Practicaly easy to execute and without
sacrificing other good arrangements. Not to much added weight. Easy in
usage and comfort, and last but not least, not to expensif.
Before placing an order I would like to have more information.
Karel Vranken.
# 447 F-PKRL XS mono 912ULS Airmaster 332 passed last control and
waiting for "Laisser passer" for first flight in Sedan.
----- Original Message -----
From: nigel charles
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 11:21 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa
The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown interest in
producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version of the
aircraft. Before they move forward and design the product they want to
find out how much of a market there is for such a device. Obviously it
is only worth their while if enough owners would buy one. Any one who is
interested should email me so I can give the manufacturer an idea of the
numbers involved.
Regards
Nigel Charles
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: First flight LN-SKJ |
Svein,
Congratulations for your achievement as builder. I wonder how you can
still find the time for scientific explanations as well as for jokes
while flying all day long. Anyway your contributions to the forum are
much appreciated.
Karel Vranken, following you very soon.
----- Original Message -----
From: Sidsel & Svein Johnsen
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: First flight LN-SKJ
Hi, Nev,
Last time I checked, the price per ounce on the London market was USD
577.80. Balancing the scale for your weight would therefore be a heap
worth USD 1,987,632.
Yeah, I would say that's about right, but one does not always get paid
what one is worth, you know - - - -
All the best,
Svein
----- Thanks for your kind comment '' worth my weight in Gold '' ,
how much is an ounce worth ?.......... I weigh 3440 ounces !
Cheers,
Nev.
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
G-MFHI already has a cabin heat - is this standard in the classic? It
consistes of a fibreglass moulding over the stbd rad which ducts air
into a section of scat hose which (via a rather tortuous route) feeds
into a section of the exhaust - this then feeds out via scat hose and a
shut off valve to the P1 footwell.
The heat exchanger muff certainly looks to be part of the original
exhaust.
Peter
Message 34
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| Subject: | Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
Hi! Nigel
Never had a problem with cabin heat with my Jabiru 3300 hot air from oil
cooler manifold.
However now I've Insurance settlement and changing to a 914 Rotax I
guess you'd better register my interest , please,! (Assuming I have any
money left over !) Presuming it will be effective for a 914 ? However
may I suggest it is a heat collector manifold catching heat from the
coolant system or oil cooler system, can't abide by any thought of
Carbon Monoxide poisoning it would be as bad as freezing to death !
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG ( due in the air as soon as an engine is available
like quoted 6-9 months !)
Robt.C.Harrison
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nigel
charles
Sent: 15 September 2006 10:21
Subject: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa
The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown interest in producing
a heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version of the aircraft.
Before they move forward and design the product they want to find out
how much of a market there is for such a device. Obviously it is only
worth their while if enough owners would buy one. Any one who is
interested should email me so I can give the manufacturer an idea of the
numbers involved.
Regards
Nigel Charles
Message 35
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| Subject: | Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Rob Housman" <robh@hyperion-ef.us>
While my scheme is not literally using air from outside of the cowling, the
duct created by CD1, CD2, CD3, and the rubber seals against the fiberglass
cowling isolates the cooling air flow from everything else within the
cowling. More importantly, and not apparent unless you see the actual
design, there is a stainless steel "fire door" that will shut off the air
flow to the cockpit (at the firewall) if there is a fire within the
cowling - the "fire door" closes automatically because it is spring loaded
and held open by a fusible link that will melt at 100 deg C.
Unfortunately I can't overcome the objection to a burst heat exchanger
allowing hot liquid into the cabin air stream. However, the way that I have
designed the intake to the SCAT tube would minimize ingestion of liquids
into the cabin air, and unless the occupants were incapacitated it would be
easy enough to shut off the flow of heated air.
I've attached the details of my scheme to another message posted with this
one.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
Airframe complete
Irvine, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Richard Holder
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 10:44 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa
--> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
Rob Housman wrote:
> Perhaps I misunderstand what is being offered, but the
> word "exhaust" suggests to me that this device would be
> a heater muff added to the Rotax exhaust plumbing. If
> so, why add the weight and risk of a carbon monoxide
> sucking muff when there is already ample warm (hot?)
> air available aft of the water and oil coolers?
> What the Europa factory forgot was the necessary
> ducting to get warmed air into the cockpit. Anyone
> interested can contact me off list for the details of
> how I ducted warm air from aft of the two coolers,
> unheated air from the 914 turbo air inlet, and mixed
> (or not, as desired) the two prior to being ducted into
> the cockpit.
Here in the UK any cabin air must be sourced from outside
the cowling. Without any chance of under-cowling air
getting in there.
The rationale is that if there is an engine fire then any
under-cowling air pick-up will pick up smoke and flames
and these are undesirable inside the cockpit.
Any heater/demist using an exhaust muff must have the muff
fed from outside the cowling and then led through the
firewall. And then the CAA/PFA will want some type of
integrity test or a solid blanking off plate on the
firewall also.
The "warm air aft of the water & oil coolers" route would
also have a problem if either radiator split and hot oil
or water was streamed up your duct into the cockpit.
A long shot but that's the way the CAA looks at things and
it costs us dear :-(
In the Land of the Free you are free to risk whatever you
like as YOU have to sit in it. The CAA would like anyone
who sits in the plane to be guaranteed safety :-) Ha ha !
Just my two-penny worth.
Richard
G-OWWW
High Cross
Message 36
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| Subject: | Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Rob Housman" <robh@hyperion-ef.us>
My first attempt to post the details as an attachment got bounced because
the attachment (at 1725 Kb) is too large (1000 Kb max. allowed). I have
submitted it to Matt for inclusion in the file and photo sharing at
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
Airframe complete
Irvine, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jos Okhuijsen
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 11:04 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Jos Okhuijsen" <josok-e@ukolo.fi>
Hi Rob,
Why off list? My guess is that many are interested. Please post your
solution here?
I was told by a usual reliable source, that the factory tried an exhaust
muffler once. The heat was more then enough, and before Andy was able to
land, his shoes were melted to the pedals. It was really sweaty situation.
This was given as the reason why the heating option, although announced,
was never introduced. So yes, for me it will be the cooling duct if
possible :-)
Kind Regards,
Jos Okhuijsen
workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane
http:www.europaowners.org/kit600
mono xs, top on, gear in, tail wheel in, wings set, flapdrive in, tail
closed, tailwheel in, tail top in, blue stuff filled, sanded and primed,
fuel system in, doors done, windows in, sanding and filling the fuse and
wings.
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa |
Nigel,
Great - yes, please.
Bets regards,
Svein
LN-SKJ
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: nigel charles
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 11:21 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa
The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown interest in
producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version of the
aircraft. Before they move forward and design the product they want to
find out how much of a market there is for such a device. Obviously it
is only worth their while if enough owners would buy one. Any one who is
interested should email me so I can give the manufacturer an idea of the
numbers involved.
Regards
Nigel Charles
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