---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 09/15/06: 37 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:23 AM - Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (nigel charles) 2. 02:34 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Richard Holder) 3. 02:54 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Alan Burrows) 4. 04:28 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (nigel charles) 5. 04:30 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (ivor.phillips) 6. 06:02 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Alan Burrows) 7. 06:05 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Mike Baker) 8. 06:33 AM - Re: First flight LN-SKJ (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen) 9. 06:48 AM - Nyeogel 744VH (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com) 10. 07:06 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (David Watts) 11. 07:22 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Trevpond@aol.com) 12. 07:23 AM - Re: Nyeogel 744VH (Jack Hilditch) 13. 07:51 AM - Re: Nyeogel 744VH (Rman) 14. 07:51 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Rman) 15. 08:11 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk) 16. 09:55 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Rob Housman) 17. 09:55 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (nwcmc@tiscali.co.uk) 18. 10:04 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Gilles Thesee) 19. 10:43 AM - Re: First flight LN-SKJ (Rowland Carson) 20. 10:44 AM - Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Richard Holder) 21. 11:03 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Jos Okhuijsen) 22. 11:19 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (europa flugzeug fabrik) 23. 11:24 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (danbish) 24. 11:27 AM - Re: First flight LN-SKJ (Jos Okhuijsen) 25. 11:31 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Richard Churchill-Coleman) 26. 11:52 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Graham Singleton) 27. 11:55 AM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Graham Singleton) 28. 12:00 PM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Graham Singleton) 29. 12:04 PM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Gilles Thesee) 30. 12:27 PM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Mike Parkin) 31. 12:28 PM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (karelvranken) 32. 12:38 PM - Re: First flight LN-SKJ (karelvranken) 33. 01:02 PM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Peter Rees) 34. 01:31 PM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (R.C.Harrison) 35. 02:18 PM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Rob Housman) 36. 02:47 PM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Rob Housman) 37. 11:24 PM - Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa (Sidsel & Svein Johnsen) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:23:03 AM PST US From: "nigel charles" Subject: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown interest in producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version of the aircraft. Before they move forward and design the product they want to find out how much of a market there is for such a device. Obviously it is only worth their while if enough owners would buy one. Any one who is interested should email me so I can give the manufacturer an idea of the numbers involved. Regards Nigel Charles ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:34:31 AM PST US From: Richard Holder Subject: Re: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder nigel charles wrote: > The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown > interest in producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted > to the XS version of the aircraft. Before they move > forward and design the product they want to find out > how much of a market there is for such a device. > Obviously it is only worth their while if enough owners > would buy one. Any one who is interested should email > me so I can give the manufacturer an idea of the > numbers involved. Hi Nigel I would certainly be interested. I assume that there is (or will be) a standard mod to allow heating to be provided into the cockpit. See what possibilities have opened up because you went for the XS FWF option :-D Richard G-OWWW High Cross ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:54:17 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa From: "Alan Burrows" --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows" Hi Nigel Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a heat exchanger for? I am just in the process of fitting an intercooler that is used by several U.S. owners in hot climates to keep engine temps down. Is your idea similar, if so I have one already that was designed for the XS and could be used to copy if required. All the Best Alan Burrows > --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder > > nigel charles wrote: > >> The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown >> interest in producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted >> to the XS version of the aircraft. Before they move >> forward and design the product they want to find out >> how much of a market there is for such a device. >> Obviously it is only worth their while if enough owners >> would buy one. Any one who is interested should email >> me so I can give the manufacturer an idea of the >> numbers involved. > > Hi Nigel > > I would certainly be interested. I assume that there is > (or will be) a standard mod to allow heating to be > provided into the cockpit. > > See what possibilities have opened up because you went for > the XS FWF option :-D > > Richard > G-OWWW High Cross > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:28:03 AM PST US From: "nigel charles" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa --> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" The heat exchanger is for cabin heat. Nigel -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan Burrows Sent: 15 September 2006 10:54 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows" Hi Nigel Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a heat exchanger for? I am just in the process of fitting an intercooler that is used by several U.S. owners in hot climates to keep engine temps down. Is your idea similar, if so I have one already that was designed for the XS and could be used to copy if required. All the Best Alan Burrows > --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder > > nigel charles wrote: > >> The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown >> interest in producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted >> to the XS version of the aircraft. Before they move >> forward and design the product they want to find out >> how much of a market there is for such a device. >> Obviously it is only worth their while if enough owners >> would buy one. Any one who is interested should email >> me so I can give the manufacturer an idea of the >> numbers involved. > > Hi Nigel > > I would certainly be interested. I assume that there is > (or will be) a standard mod to allow heating to be > provided into the cockpit. > > See what possibilities have opened up because you went for > the XS FWF option :-D > > Richard > G-OWWW High Cross > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:30:04 AM PST US From: "ivor.phillips" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa --> Europa-List message posted by: "ivor.phillips" Hi ALAN I Believe Nigel is talking about a Cabin heat exchanger, To use the hot air from the exhaust for cockpit warming, Regards Ivor Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a heat exchanger for? ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:15 AM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa From: "Alan Burrows" --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Burrows" Thanks Ivor Ah now I see... whats wrong with a good pair of socks that what I want to know?? :-) Alan > --> Europa-List message posted by: "ivor.phillips" > > > Hi ALAN > I Believe Nigel is talking about a Cabin heat exchanger, To use the hot > air > from the exhaust for cockpit warming, > > Regards > Ivor > > > Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a heat exchanger for? > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:05:10 AM PST US From: Mike Baker Subject: Re: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa --> Europa-List message posted by: Mike Baker that's been a problem for me and the rotax. no manufactured source of cabin heat and windshield demister. i am very interested in that item. specs please. mike baker --- nigel charles wrote: > The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown > interest in producing > a heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version > of the aircraft. > Before they move forward and design the product they > want to find out > how much of a market there is for such a device. > Obviously it is only > worth their while if enough owners would buy one. > Any one who is > interested should email me so I can give the > manufacturer an idea of the > numbers involved. > > Regards > > Nigel Charles > __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:33:53 AM PST US From: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" Subject: Re: Europa-List: First flight LN-SKJ Hi, Nev, Last time I checked, the price per ounce on the London market was USD 577.80. Balancing the scale for your weight would therefore be a heap worth USD 1,987,632. Yeah, I would say that's about right, but one does not always get paid what one is worth, you know - - - - All the best, Svein ----- Thanks for your kind comment '' worth my weight in Gold '' , how much is an ounce worth ?.......... I weigh 3440 ounces ! Cheers, Nev. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:56 AM PST US From: TELEDYNMCS@aol.com Subject: Europa-List: Nyeogel 744VH Greetings all, Anybody found a source on this side of the pond for Nyogel 744VH? I've done several Google searches and came up empty. Regards, John Lawton Dunlap, TN N245E - Flying - 27.5 hours and lovin' every minute! ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:00 AM PST US From: "David Watts" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa I know Peter Kember is interested. The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown interest in producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version of the aircraft. Before they move forward and design the product they want to find out how much of a market there is for such a device. Obviously it is only worth their while if enough owners would buy one. Any one who is interested should email me so I can give the manufacturer an idea of the numbers involved. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:22:44 AM PST US From: Trevpond@aol.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa Hi Guys, Do you think he would make one for the 914 engined aircraft? Trev Pond G-LINN ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:20 AM PST US From: "Jack Hilditch" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Nyeogel 744VH Try HYPERLINK "http://www.nyelubricants.com/"http://www.nyelubricants.com/ Jack Hilditch _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of TELEDYNMCS@aol.com Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 9:48 AM Subject: Europa-List: Nyeogel 744VH Greetings all, Anybody found a source on this side of the pond for Nyogel 744VH? I've done several Google searches and came up empty. Regards, John Lawton Dunlap, TN N245E - Flying - 27.5 hours and lovin' every minute! "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List"http://www.matronics.com/Nav igator?Europa-List "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:12 AM PST US From: Rman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Nyeogel 744VH John, Why spend the $40+. Send me your shipping address and I'll send you enough to do the job a few times over... Jeff Baby Blue do not archive TELEDYNMCS@aol.com wrote: > Greetings all, > > Anybody found a source on this side of the pond for Nyogel 744VH? > > I've done several Google searches and came up empty. > > Regards, > > John Lawton > Dunlap, TN > N245E - Flying - 27.5 hours and lovin' every minute! > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:54 AM PST US From: Rman Subject: Re: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa Nigel, Depending on cost, I'd certainly be interested. Jeff Baby Blue nigel charles wrote: > The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown interest in > producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version of the > aircraft. Before they move forward and design the product they want to > find out how much of a market there is for such a device. Obviously it > is only worth their while if enough owners would buy one. Any one who > is interested should email me so I can give the manufacturer an idea > of the numbers involved. > > > > Regards > > > > Nigel Charles > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:31 AM PST US From: "danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa --> Europa-List message posted by: "danny@mcwalterscafe.co.uk" Hi Nigel, As I do most of my flying in winter, due to having a seasonal business I guess you better put me down for one. Danny G-c.e.r.i Nigel charles wrote: > The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown interest in > producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version of the > aircraft. Before they move forward and design the product they want to > find out how much of a market there is for such a device. Obviously it > is only worth their while if enough owners would buy one. Any one who > is interested should email me so I can give the manufacturer an idea > of the numbers involved. > > > > Regards > > > > Nigel Charles > >* > > >* > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:55:28 AM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa Perhaps I misunderstand what is being offered, but the word "exhaust" suggests to me that this device would be a heater muff added to the Rotax exhaust plumbing. If so, why add the weight and risk of a carbon monoxide sucking muff when there is already ample warm (hot?) air available aft of the water and oil coolers? What the Europa factory forgot was the necessary ducting to get warmed air into the cockpit. Anyone interested can contact me off list for the details of how I ducted warm air from aft of the two coolers, unheated air from the 914 turbo air inlet, and mixed (or not, as desired) the two prior to being ducted into the cockpit. Best regards, Rob Housman A070 Airframe complete Irvine, CA -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of nigel charles Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 2:21 AM Subject: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown interest in producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version of the aircraft. Before they move forward and design the product they want to find out how much of a market there is for such a device. Obviously it is only worth their while if enough owners would buy one. Any one who is interested should email me so I can give the manufacturer an idea of the numbers involved. Regards Nigel Charles ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:55:28 AM PST US From: nwcmc@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa --> Europa-List message posted by: nwcmc@tiscali.co.uk I am not familiar on how different the 914 exhaust system is from the 912/912S. If a heat exchanger can be designed to suite both engine variants then there isn't a problem. However if it needs to be different I suspect that CKT will work on the 912/912S version first. Nigel Charles >-- Original Message -- >From: Trevpond@aol.com >Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 10:22:10 EDT >Subject: Re: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa >To: europa-list@matronics.com > > >Hi Guys, > >Do you think he would make one for the 914 engined aircraft? > >Trev Pond >G-LINN ___________________________________________________________ Tiscali Broadband from 14.99 with free setup! http://www.tiscali.co.uk/products/broadband/ ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:09 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa --> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee Rob and all, > why add the weight and risk of a carbon monoxide sucking muff when > there is already ample warm (hot?) air available aft of the water and > oil coolers? > Right on the money. > > > > What the Europa factory forgot was the necessary ducting to get warmed > air into the cockpit. Anyone interested can contact me off list for > the details of how I ducted warm air from aft of the two coolers, > unheated air from the 914 turbo air inlet, and mixed (or not, as > desired) the two prior to being ducted into the cockpit. > In our 914 project, I took advantage of the warm air behind the radiators to warm the cockpit. Simple, litght and efficient, and since the radiator duct is separate from the engine compartment, zero CO ppm were found during flight tests. You need a properly designed radiator duct, though. FWIW, Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:29 AM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: Re: Europa-List: First flight LN-SKJ --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson At 2006-09-12 18:32 +0200 Sidsel & Svein Johnsen wrote: >I took my Europa XS trigear on its first flight Svein - congratulations, somewhat belated. >So the stats, Rowland Thanks very much, very efficient. From now on, everyone will have to get used to directing status updates to the new Membership Secretary, Brian Davies. His internet connexion is wonky at present, but I'm sure he'll catch up with this soon. regards Rowland -- | Rowland Carson (former Europa Club Membership Secretary) | e-mail ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:44:46 AM PST US From: Richard Holder Subject: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder Rob Housman wrote: > Perhaps I misunderstand what is being offered, but the > word exhaust suggests to me that this device would be > a heater muff added to the Rotax exhaust plumbing. If > so, why add the weight and risk of a carbon monoxide > sucking muff when there is already ample warm (hot?) > air available aft of the water and oil coolers? > What the Europa factory forgot was the necessary > ducting to get warmed air into the cockpit. Anyone > interested can contact me off list for the details of > how I ducted warm air from aft of the two coolers, > unheated air from the 914 turbo air inlet, and mixed > (or not, as desired) the two prior to being ducted into > the cockpit. Here in the UK any cabin air must be sourced from outside the cowling. Without any chance of under-cowling air getting in there. The rationale is that if there is an engine fire then any under-cowling air pick-up will pick up smoke and flames and these are undesirable inside the cockpit. Any heater/demist using an exhaust muff must have the muff fed from outside the cowling and then led through the firewall. And then the CAA/PFA will want some type of integrity test or a solid blanking off plate on the firewall also. The "warm air aft of the water & oil coolers" route would also have a problem if either radiator split and hot oil or water was streamed up your duct into the cockpit. A long shot but that's the way the CAA looks at things and it costs us dear :-( In the Land of the Free you are free to risk whatever you like as YOU have to sit in it. The CAA would like anyone who sits in the plane to be guaranteed safety :-) Ha ha ! Just my two-penny worth. Richard G-OWWW High Cross ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:03:30 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa From: "Jos Okhuijsen" --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jos Okhuijsen" Hi Rob, Why off list? My guess is that many are interested. Please post your solution here? I was told by a usual reliable source, that the factory tried an exhaust muffler once. The heat was more then enough, and before Andy was able to land, his shoes were melted to the pedals. It was really sweaty situation. This was given as the reason why the heating option, although announced, was never introduced. So yes, for me it will be the cooling duct if possible :-) Kind Regards, Jos Okhuijsen workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane http:www.europaowners.org/kit600 mono xs, top on, gear in, tail wheel in, wings set, flapdrive in, tail closed, tailwheel in, tail top in, blue stuff filled, sanded and primed, fuel system in, doors done, windows in, sanding and filling the fuse and wings. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:19:30 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa From: "europa flugzeug fabrik" --> Europa-List message posted by: "europa flugzeug fabrik" robh(at)hyperion-ef.us wrote: > If so, why add the weight and risk of a carbon monoxide sucking muff when there is already ample warm (hot?) air available aft of the water and oil coolers? According to NTSB accident data, such accidents are very rare. One fatality in the last 5 years, meaning one in 150 million hours, and avg age of the fleet is now 30 years. A heater shroud arrangement is a simple inspection item annually, if easy to remove, and exhaust can enter the cabin from other more common leak sources like gaskets and slip joints. Id be interested too, provided its for the 914. Theres little room around the muffler area, and if around the exhaust pipe, those pipes are kinda small. I curious also if anyone using the air aft of the coolers can report it works when outside temps aloft are down near 0-deg F. Fred F. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=61829#61829 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:24:47 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: RE: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa From: "danbish" --> Europa-List message posted by: "danbish" Nigel, Depending on cost, I'd be interested as long as it is for the 914. Possible interest in 2 kits, again depending on cost. Dan ---------------- Visit EuropaOwnersForum http://www.europaowners.org/ ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:27:30 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: First flight LN-SKJ From: "Jos Okhuijsen" --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jos Okhuijsen" Hi Rowland, > Davies. His internet connexion is wonky at present, but I'm sure he'll > catch up with this soon. But he can allready write and read eh? Sorry, but this does not really sound good, hope it is not typical. Can't imagine how a secretary can do his job without pen, paper, a computer and internet. -- Kind Regards, Jos Okhuijsen workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane http:www.europaowners.org/kit600 mono xs, top on, gear in, tail wheel in, wings set, flapdrive in, tail closed, tailwheel in, tail top in, blue stuff filled, sanded and primed, fuel system in, doors done, windows in, sanding and filling the fuse and wings. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:23 AM PST US From: "Richard Churchill-Coleman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa Hi Nigel, My first posting - haven't started construction yet as I have a set of MG wings ordered for UK use and I'm awaiting certification - but I would definitely be interested in a heat exchanger (and a cabin heat mod - Europa please note). regards Richard C-Coleman _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nigel charles Sent: 15 September 2006 10:21 Subject: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown interest in producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version of the aircraft. Before they move forward and design the product they want to find out how much of a market there is for such a device. Obviously it is only worth their while if enough owners would buy one. Any one who is interested should email me so I can give the manufacturer an idea of the numbers involved. Regards Nigel Charles ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:07 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton Rob imho that's the sensible, elegant way to do it. They do it this way on the MCR Banbis too/ AFAIK it works. Graham Rob Housman wrote: > What the Europa factory forgot was the necessary ducting to get warmed > air into the cockpit. Anyone interested can contact me off list for > the details of how I ducted warm air from aft of the two coolers, > unheated air from the 914 turbo air inlet, and mixed (or not, as > desired) the two prior to being ducted into the cockpit. > > Rob Housman > > A070 > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:55:44 AM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton Gilles the duct needs to be properly designed for efficient, low drag cooling too. Several XS builders did redesign the duct with noteworthy results. Bob Berube might enlighten us if he's still listening? Graham Gilles Thesee wrote: > In our 914 project, I took advantage of the warm air behind the > radiators to warm the cockpit. Simple, litght and efficient, and since > the radiator duct is separate from the engine compartment, zero CO ppm > were found during flight tests. > You need a properly designed radiator duct, though. > > Regards, > Gilles Thesee ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 12:00:59 PM PST US From: Graham Singleton Subject: Re: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa --> Europa-List message posted by: Graham Singleton Richard The CAA is mainly interested in avoiding any possibility of being blamed themselves. That's why they are so reluctant to be positive about so many things Graham Richard Holder wrote: > In the Land of the Free you are free to risk whatever you > like as YOU have to sit in it. The CAA would like anyone > who sits in the plane to be guaranteed safety :-) Ha ha ! > > Richard > G-OWWW > High Cross ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:41 PM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa --> Europa-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee Graham, > > the duct needs to be properly designed for efficient, low drag cooling > too. I sure do agree. You'll find some details on how I designed our radiator duct : http://contrails.free.fr/tunnel_en.php No cooling air leaks whatsoever. In flight we can adjust the temps within 5 C of the target temperature we choose. Having an efficient inlet diffuser gives us plenty of high pressure 70C air behind the radiators. > Several XS builders did redesign the duct with noteworthy results. Bob > Berube might enlighten us if he's still listening? > Graham > Best regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 12:27:21 PM PST US From: "Mike Parkin" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa --> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike Parkin" Not entirely true. G-JULZ has a cockpit heater based on the hot air behind the radiators being ducted, via bulkhead shutoff valves, into the cockpit. All PFA approved. regards, Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Holder" Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 6:44 PM Subject: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa > --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder > > Rob Housman wrote: > >> Perhaps I misunderstand what is being offered, but the >> word exhaust suggests to me that this device would be >> a heater muff added to the Rotax exhaust plumbing. If >> so, why add the weight and risk of a carbon monoxide >> sucking muff when there is already ample warm (hot?) >> air available aft of the water and oil coolers? > >> What the Europa factory forgot was the necessary >> ducting to get warmed air into the cockpit. Anyone >> interested can contact me off list for the details of >> how I ducted warm air from aft of the two coolers, >> unheated air from the 914 turbo air inlet, and mixed >> (or not, as desired) the two prior to being ducted into >> the cockpit. > > Here in the UK any cabin air must be sourced from outside > the cowling. Without any chance of under-cowling air > getting in there. > > The rationale is that if there is an engine fire then any > under-cowling air pick-up will pick up smoke and flames > and these are undesirable inside the cockpit. > > Any heater/demist using an exhaust muff must have the muff > fed from outside the cowling and then led through the > firewall. And then the CAA/PFA will want some type of > integrity test or a solid blanking off plate on the > firewall also. > > The "warm air aft of the water & oil coolers" route would > also have a problem if either radiator split and hot oil > or water was streamed up your duct into the cockpit. > > A long shot but that's the way the CAA looks at things and > it costs us dear :-( > > In the Land of the Free you are free to risk whatever you > like as YOU have to sit in it. The CAA would like anyone > who sits in the plane to be guaranteed safety :-) Ha ha ! > > Just my two-penny worth. > > Richard > G-OWWW > High Cross > > > -- > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 12:28:56 PM PST US From: "karelvranken" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa Nigel, Every builder, I think, is interested in cabin heating if....if. Technicaly it has to be simple. Practicaly easy to execute and without sacrificing other good arrangements. Not to much added weight. Easy in usage and comfort, and last but not least, not to expensif. Before placing an order I would like to have more information. Karel Vranken. # 447 F-PKRL XS mono 912ULS Airmaster 332 passed last control and waiting for "Laisser passer" for first flight in Sedan. ----- Original Message ----- From: nigel charles To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 11:21 AM Subject: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown interest in producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version of the aircraft. Before they move forward and design the product they want to find out how much of a market there is for such a device. Obviously it is only worth their while if enough owners would buy one. Any one who is interested should email me so I can give the manufacturer an idea of the numbers involved. Regards Nigel Charles ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 12:38:45 PM PST US From: "karelvranken" Subject: Re: Europa-List: First flight LN-SKJ Svein, Congratulations for your achievement as builder. I wonder how you can still find the time for scientific explanations as well as for jokes while flying all day long. Anyway your contributions to the forum are much appreciated. Karel Vranken, following you very soon. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sidsel & Svein Johnsen To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 3:33 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: First flight LN-SKJ Hi, Nev, Last time I checked, the price per ounce on the London market was USD 577.80. Balancing the scale for your weight would therefore be a heap worth USD 1,987,632. Yeah, I would say that's about right, but one does not always get paid what one is worth, you know - - - - All the best, Svein ----- Thanks for your kind comment '' worth my weight in Gold '' , how much is an ounce worth ?.......... I weigh 3440 ounces ! Cheers, Nev. ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 01:02:29 PM PST US From: "Peter Rees" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa G-MFHI already has a cabin heat - is this standard in the classic? It consistes of a fibreglass moulding over the stbd rad which ducts air into a section of scat hose which (via a rather tortuous route) feeds into a section of the exhaust - this then feeds out via scat hose and a shut off valve to the P1 footwell. The heat exchanger muff certainly looks to be part of the original exhaust. Peter ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 01:31:08 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa Hi! Nigel Never had a problem with cabin heat with my Jabiru 3300 hot air from oil cooler manifold. However now I've Insurance settlement and changing to a 914 Rotax I guess you'd better register my interest , please,! (Assuming I have any money left over !) Presuming it will be effective for a 914 ? However may I suggest it is a heat collector manifold catching heat from the coolant system or oil cooler system, can't abide by any thought of Carbon Monoxide poisoning it would be as bad as freezing to death ! Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG ( due in the air as soon as an engine is available like quoted 6-9 months !) Robt.C.Harrison -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nigel charles Sent: 15 September 2006 10:21 Subject: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown interest in producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version of the aircraft. Before they move forward and design the product they want to find out how much of a market there is for such a device. Obviously it is only worth their while if enough owners would buy one. Any one who is interested should email me so I can give the manufacturer an idea of the numbers involved. Regards Nigel Charles ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 02:18:08 PM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa --> Europa-List message posted by: "Rob Housman" While my scheme is not literally using air from outside of the cowling, the duct created by CD1, CD2, CD3, and the rubber seals against the fiberglass cowling isolates the cooling air flow from everything else within the cowling. More importantly, and not apparent unless you see the actual design, there is a stainless steel "fire door" that will shut off the air flow to the cockpit (at the firewall) if there is a fire within the cowling - the "fire door" closes automatically because it is spring loaded and held open by a fusible link that will melt at 100 deg C. Unfortunately I can't overcome the objection to a burst heat exchanger allowing hot liquid into the cabin air stream. However, the way that I have designed the intake to the SCAT tube would minimize ingestion of liquids into the cabin air, and unless the occupants were incapacitated it would be easy enough to shut off the flow of heated air. I've attached the details of my scheme to another message posted with this one. Best regards, Rob Housman A070 Airframe complete Irvine, CA -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Richard Holder Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 10:44 AM Subject: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa --> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder Rob Housman wrote: > Perhaps I misunderstand what is being offered, but the > word "exhaust" suggests to me that this device would be > a heater muff added to the Rotax exhaust plumbing. If > so, why add the weight and risk of a carbon monoxide > sucking muff when there is already ample warm (hot?) > air available aft of the water and oil coolers? > What the Europa factory forgot was the necessary > ducting to get warmed air into the cockpit. Anyone > interested can contact me off list for the details of > how I ducted warm air from aft of the two coolers, > unheated air from the 914 turbo air inlet, and mixed > (or not, as desired) the two prior to being ducted into > the cockpit. Here in the UK any cabin air must be sourced from outside the cowling. Without any chance of under-cowling air getting in there. The rationale is that if there is an engine fire then any under-cowling air pick-up will pick up smoke and flames and these are undesirable inside the cockpit. Any heater/demist using an exhaust muff must have the muff fed from outside the cowling and then led through the firewall. And then the CAA/PFA will want some type of integrity test or a solid blanking off plate on the firewall also. The "warm air aft of the water & oil coolers" route would also have a problem if either radiator split and hot oil or water was streamed up your duct into the cockpit. A long shot but that's the way the CAA looks at things and it costs us dear :-( In the Land of the Free you are free to risk whatever you like as YOU have to sit in it. The CAA would like anyone who sits in the plane to be guaranteed safety :-) Ha ha ! Just my two-penny worth. Richard G-OWWW High Cross ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 02:47:20 PM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa --> Europa-List message posted by: "Rob Housman" My first attempt to post the details as an attachment got bounced because the attachment (at 1725 Kb) is too large (1000 Kb max. allowed). I have submitted it to Matt for inclusion in the file and photo sharing at http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Best regards, Rob Housman A070 Airframe complete Irvine, CA -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jos Okhuijsen Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 11:04 AM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa --> Europa-List message posted by: "Jos Okhuijsen" Hi Rob, Why off list? My guess is that many are interested. Please post your solution here? I was told by a usual reliable source, that the factory tried an exhaust muffler once. The heat was more then enough, and before Andy was able to land, his shoes were melted to the pedals. It was really sweaty situation. This was given as the reason why the heating option, although announced, was never introduced. So yes, for me it will be the cooling duct if possible :-) Kind Regards, Jos Okhuijsen workshopcam http://www.okhuijsen.org/plane http:www.europaowners.org/kit600 mono xs, top on, gear in, tail wheel in, wings set, flapdrive in, tail closed, tailwheel in, tail top in, blue stuff filled, sanded and primed, fuel system in, doors done, windows in, sanding and filling the fuse and wings. ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 11:24:37 PM PST US From: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa Nigel, Great - yes, please. Bets regards, Svein LN-SKJ do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: nigel charles To: europa-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 11:21 AM Subject: Europa-List: Heat exchanger for the XS Europa The manufacturer for the Europa exhaust has shown interest in producing a heat exchanger box to be fitted to the XS version of the aircraft. Before they move forward and design the product they want to find out how much of a market there is for such a device. Obviously it is only worth their while if enough owners would buy one. Any one who is interested should email me so I can give the manufacturer an idea of the numbers involved. Regards Nigel Charles