---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 09/23/06: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:43 AM - Re: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead? (nigel charles) 2. 05:02 AM - Re: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead? (William Daniell) 3. 05:41 AM - Re: PROBABLE SPAM> Re: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead? (Paul McAllister) 4. 05:50 AM - Re: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead? (Paul McAllister) 5. 06:16 AM - Re: CCA Wire (rlborger) 6. 07:01 AM - Re: CCA Wire (rlborger) 7. 07:02 AM - Re: PROBABLE SPAM> Re: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead? (William Daniell) 8. 09:39 AM - Re: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead? (nigel charles) 9. 09:56 AM - Re: Re: CCA Wire () 10. 02:45 PM - wing conduit mod (Rowland Carson) 11. 03:45 PM - Re: wing conduit mod (Fred Klein) 12. 07:25 PM - Anyone install battery aft of Baggage bay bulkhead (Fergus Kyle) 13. 11:34 PM - Re: wing conduit mod (Steven Pitt) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:43:51 AM PST US From: "nigel charles" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead? --> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" No for the following reasons: 1. I already had some a/c quality #4 cable, as used with C130 a/c generators. 2. The oval plastic ducting available for domestic house electrics in the UK provides a perfect fit to enable end feeding the cable from the battery to the engine bay. 3. As the total weight penalty was about 1.5lb then the difference between types of cable wasn't going to be significant. Thanks for the info. I will bear it in mind for any future projects. Nigel -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister Sent: 23 September 2006 00:48 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Hi Nigel Did you consider using CCA wire ? See: http://www.periheliondesign.com/fatwires.htm Paul ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:16 AM PST US From: "William Daniell" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead? --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Daniell" Displaying my ignorance...err what is CCA wire? -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister Sent: 22 September, 2006 18:48 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" --> Hi Nigel Did you consider using CCA wire ? See: http://www.periheliondesign.com/fatwires.htm Paul ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:13 AM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: PROBABLE SPAM> RE: Europa-List: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" William, CCA is "Copper Clad Aluminum" The aluminum strands of wire are clad with copper using a cold fusion process, similar to friction welding. This stuff has all of the wieght advantages of aluminum, but none of the disadvantages when it comes to terminating it. I am told you can even solder this stuff with regular lead/tim solder. I have a short piece so I must try this to see if its true. It weights almost half as much as the copper equivalent. The down side is that #4 costs about US $3.25 per foot. Paul >--> Europa-List message posted by: "William Daniell" >Displaying my ignorance...err what is CCA wire? ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:48 AM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Nigel, I used #4 welding cable which was nice and flexible and not very expensive, but I remember when I was bringing the 25' roll home thinking "darn this stuff weighs a lot" I suspect that the thick flame proof rubber insulation added a weight penalty over the cable you used. I really wished I weighed it at the time..... maybe I'll buy a short section and do a rough calculation. I tried to pay attention to weight in my aircraft, it came out at 860lb, about average for a 914 mono, but I often think until you have built an aircraft you really don't have a great appreciation of its importance. Some people have built 914 monowheels that have come in at 790 lbs..... I sure wish mine weighed that. I look forward to seeing your calculations of the "battery in the back" weight trade off. Regards, Paul --> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" >No for the following reasons: >1. I already had some a/c quality #4 cable, as used with C130 a/c >generators. >2. The oval plastic ducting available for domestic house electrics in >the UK provides a perfect fit to enable end feeding the cable from the >battery to the engine bay. >3. As the total weight penalty was about 1.5lb then the difference >between types of cable wasn't going to be significant. >Thanks for the info. I will bear it in mind for any future projects. >Nigel ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:16:26 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: CCA Wire From: rlborger William, Copper Coated Aluminum. Conductivity of copper with the weight of aluminum. Great stuff, but it requires some special care on connections. If I can find my link, I'll add it to the posting later. Good building and great flying, Bob Borger Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL (85%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in, outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in, Mod 70 done. Baggage bay in. Flaps & Main Gear complete. Working in - 24 Instrument Panel, 25 Electrical, 30 Fuel System, 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35 Doors, 37 Finishing. Airmaster arrived 29 Sep 05. Seat arrived from Oregon Aero. E04 interior kit has arrived. Preparing for ROTAX 914 installation. 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208 Home: 940-497-2123 Cel: 817-992-1117 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:33 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: CCA Wire From: rlborger Duh... Paul McAllister posted the link to the Copper Clad Wire http://www.periheliondesign.com/fatwires.htm ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:01 AM PST US From: "William Daniell" Subject: RE: PROBABLE SPAM> RE: Europa-List: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead? --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Daniell" Thanks I'm like you...I worry about 3.25 per foot in an aeroplane which will cost eventually in the region of USD60k. Is this ac grade stuff - do you get it from AC Spruce? Will -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister Sent: 23 September, 2006 07:39 Subject: RE: PROBABLE SPAM> RE: Europa-List: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" --> William, CCA is "Copper Clad Aluminum" The aluminum strands of wire are clad with copper using a cold fusion process, similar to friction welding. This stuff has all of the wieght advantages of aluminum, but none of the disadvantages when it comes to terminating it. I am told you can even solder this stuff with regular lead/tim solder. I have a short piece so I must try this to see if its true. It weights almost half as much as the copper equivalent. The down side is that #4 costs about US $3.25 per foot. Paul >--> Europa-List message posted by: "William Daniell" >--> >Displaying my ignorance...err what is CCA wire? ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:39:54 AM PST US From: "nigel charles" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead? --> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" It is too easy to get carried away adding weight to the aircraft. This was especially a problem when the MTOW was only 1300lb. Just how important it is depends a lot on pilot and passenger weights. If you can carry at least 50lb baggage and full fuel with 2 people on board and stay within MTOW the use of the Europa as a cruising has not been compromised. When it comes to allowing for weight of fuel be aware that many of the fuel tanks expand with age. My tank started off with a 69 litre capacity. It now holds 76 litres. This is good for range (about another 25 minutes flying) but it does add about another 5lb to the fuel weight. Regards Nigel Charles -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister Sent: 23 September 2006 13:49 Subject: RE: Europa-List: Anyone install battery aft of baggage bay bulkhead? --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Nigel, I used #4 welding cable which was nice and flexible and not very expensive, but I remember when I was bringing the 25' roll home thinking "darn this stuff weighs a lot" I suspect that the thick flame proof rubber insulation added a weight penalty over the cable you used. I really wished I weighed it at the time..... maybe I'll buy a short section and do a rough calculation. I tried to pay attention to weight in my aircraft, it came out at 860lb, about average for a 914 mono, but I often think until you have built an aircraft you really don't have a great appreciation of its importance. Some people have built 914 monowheels that have come in at 790 lbs..... I sure wish mine weighed that. I look forward to seeing your calculations of the "battery in the back" weight trade off. Regards, Paul --> Europa-List message posted by: "nigel charles" >No for the following reasons: >1. I already had some a/c quality #4 cable, as used with C130 a/c >generators. >2. The oval plastic ducting available for domestic house electrics in >the UK provides a perfect fit to enable end feeding the cable from the >battery to the engine bay. >3. As the total weight penalty was about 1.5lb then the difference >between types of cable wasn't going to be significant. >Thanks for the info. I will bear it in mind for any future projects. >Nigel ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:56:58 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: CCA Wire From: --> Europa-List message posted by: The equivalent #4 CCA is thicker than #4 copper, also a lot stiffer. Attachment to battery better be well thought out to deal with stiffness. I had Eric use his hammer crimp to crimp on a connector on a sample, it hand pulled off, so a better crimp and solder is in order. I calculated weight savings, and will take the mini hit on weight for better flexibility, and more important the smaller diameter. I calculated for aft battery. Ron P. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:45:11 PM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: Europa-List: wing conduit mod --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson I just checked the PFA website for the list of "standard" mods, and don't see anything there about wing conduits. I think I'd like to install conduit before I close the wing, not just for the possibility of wingtip lights or strobes, but also because the conduit can provide a very handy hole to insert a support when turning the wing over. Does anyone know if there is a "standard" mod in the pipeline? Or indeed has anyone in UK got wing conduits as an approved mod? Or is it a "non-mod"? regards Rowland (actually thinking about aeroplane-building again!) -- | Rowland Carson PFA #16532 http://home.clara.net/rowil/aviation/ | 750 hours building Europa #435 G-ROWI e-mail ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:45:12 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: wing conduit mod From: Fred Klein --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein Rowland, w/o regard to PFA issues, I used some feather-light plastic irrigation pipe from a garden shop. My hunch is that it would not be robust enough to serve as a wing rotator support and that function, if desired would be best dealt w/ separately. I'm unaware of any "standard" mod. Fred A194 On Saturday, September 23, 2006, at 01:31 PM, Rowland Carson wrote: > --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson > > I just checked the PFA website for the list of "standard" mods, and > don't see anything there about wing conduits. > > I think I'd like to install conduit before I close the wing, not just > for the possibility of wingtip lights or strobes, but also because the > conduit can provide a very handy hole to insert a support when turning > the wing over. > > Does anyone know if there is a "standard" mod in the pipeline? Or > indeed has anyone in UK got wing conduits as an approved mod? Or is it > a "non-mod"? > > regards > > Rowland ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:55 PM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: Europa-List: Anyone install battery aft of Baggage bay bulkhead --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" Cheers, If you want to compare weights, I ordered 20 feet of #4 CCA (copper-covered alu) wire from Perihelion and Eric Jones. I expect to install a 17Ah battery under one of five compartments built under the extended bulkhead 'shelf' It weighs 48.75 gm/ft. I was going to use #4 welding cable (rubber-covered) which is 127gm/ft - because of its flexibility and rather innocuous smoke when heated (archives). I don't know the weight /foot of #4aircraft cable but it may be determined I'm sure. The length involved may be less than 20 feet, but that too I leave to you. The advantages beyond the weight are (1) more flexible than a/c cable; (2) better insulation than welding cable (a/c standard); (3) yellow colour makes it more readily obvious; (4) fits neatly in 12mm/half inch copper tubing for nearby ground - watch the chafing..; (5) Eric is great to deal with and has excellent installation advice. Minor disadvantages : (1) More expensive - stop smoking, nothing much on a big ship; (2) slightly larger - see 4 above. I feel better about shifting the battery with this material, but of course you are the final judge. Nevertheless, maximum time of starter engagement must be calculated when using aft battery........ Regards Ferg Kyle Europa A064 914 Classic ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:31 PM PST US From: "Steven Pitt" Subject: Re: Europa-List: wing conduit mod --> Europa-List message posted by: "Steven Pitt" Rowland, I believe Ian Rickard has details of a conduit fitting which we have used in our aircraft to our inspectors satisfaction. Regrds Steve Pitt