Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:29 AM - Re: wing conduit mod (G-IANI)
2. 05:24 AM - Re: Anyone install battery aft of Baggage bay bulkhead (William Daniell)
3. 07:34 AM - Anyone install battery aft of Baggage bay bulkhead (Paul McAllister)
4. 09:44 AM - Re: wing conduit mod (Michael Grass)
5. 09:50 AM - Re: Anyone install battery aft of Baggage bay bulkhead ()
6. 09:55 AM - Re: Anyone install battery aft of Baggage bay bulkhead ()
7. 10:38 AM - Re: wing conduit mod (NevEyre@aol.com)
8. 12:35 PM - Re: wing conduit mod (Fred Klein)
Message 1
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| Subject: | wing conduit mod |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "G-IANI" <g-iani@ntlworld.com>
Rowland
"I just checked the PFA website for the list of "standard" mods, and
don't see anything there about wing conduits."
You are right. Jeremy Davy has a mod (10713) which I started to convert
into a standard mod last year. As the eelier standard mods had
disappeared into a "Francis hole" ( This is a black hole that does not
have an event horizon for the physics buffs) I stopped work on it.
At the meeting I had with Francis on 29 March 2006 it was agreed
(Rowland you have had a copy of the minutes of this meeting) that there
was no need for a standard mod for this as Francis is satisfied that it
is cover by "standard aircraft practice" (otherwise know as a "non
mod"). So carry no, just carry on as long as your inspector is happy.
"I think I'd like to install conduit before I close the wing, not just
for the possibility of wingtip lights or strobes"
Yes and also remember that you will need the conduit if your pitot and
static pipes become brittle and need replacing.
"also because the conduit can provide a very handy hole to insert a
support when turning the wing over"
Well not so much the conduit but a hole in the wing tip. I have a
reinforced hole her which is finally used as the nav light mount but it
was very handy (with a piece of curtain pole that happened to be the
correct diameter inserted) for handling and rotating the wing during
finishing and spraying.
If you want to see what others have done I can send you some pictures
off list.
Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
Message 2
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| Subject: | Anyone install battery aft of Baggage bay bulkhead |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "William Daniell" <wdaniell@etb.net.co>
Err another question "maximum time of starter engagement" Whats this?
Will
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fergus Kyle
Sent: 23 September, 2006 21:25
Subject: Europa-List: Anyone install battery aft of Baggage bay bulkhead
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Cheers,
If you want to compare weights, I ordered 20 feet of #4 CCA
(copper-covered alu) wire from Perihelion and Eric Jones. I expect to
install a 17Ah battery under one of five compartments built under the
extended bulkhead 'shelf'
It weighs 48.75 gm/ft. I was going to use #4 welding cable (rubber-covered)
which is 127gm/ft - because of its flexibility and rather innocuous smoke
when heated (archives). I don't know the weight /foot of #4aircraft cable
but it may be determined I'm sure.
The length involved may be less than 20 feet, but that too I
leave to you. The advantages beyond the weight are (1) more flexible than
a/c cable; (2) better insulation than welding cable (a/c standard); (3)
yellow colour makes it more readily obvious; (4) fits neatly in 12mm/half
inch copper tubing for nearby ground - watch the chafing..; (5) Eric is
great to deal with and has excellent installation advice.
Minor disadvantages :
(1) More expensive - stop smoking, nothing much on a big ship;
(2) slightly larger - see 4 above.
I feel better about shifting the battery with this material, but of course
you are the final judge. Nevertheless, maximum time of starter engagement
must be calculated when using aft battery........
Regards
Ferg Kyle
Europa A064 914 Classic
Message 3
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| Subject: | Anyone install battery aft of Baggage bay bulkhead |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
I seem to recall putting in 22' of welding cable. If I use Ferg's numbers
that gives a weight difference of 1741 gram / 3.7 pounds over #4 welding
cable. Seems like a worth while saving.
Paul
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
>Cheers,
> If you want to compare weights, I ordered 20 feet of #4 CCA
>(copper-covered alu) wire from Perihelion and Eric Jones. I expect to
>install a 17Ah battery under one of five compartments built under the
>extended bulkhead 'shelf'
>It weighs 48.75 gm/ft. I was going to use #4 welding cable (rubber-covered)
>which is 127gm/ft - because of its flexibility and rather innocuous smoke
>when heated (archives). I don't know the weight /foot of #4aircraft cable
>but it may be determined I'm sure.
>Ferg
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: wing conduit mod |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Michael Grass" <M.Grass@comcast.net>
To our friends on the east side of the pond.
What is the typical opinion of the PFA inspectors on the wing conduit and
pitot/static/stall warner lines. Do you have to reinforce where holes are
made in the ribs? I question this because I believe (and not know) that the
middle portion of the rib is only caring negligible loads. This is where our
friends in the flying aluminum cans cut there holes to make the structure
more lightweight. My intension is to run 2 1/4 inch aluminum lines for pitot
etc and an about 1/2 inch conduit for electrical supply.
Best regards
Michael Grass
A266 Trigear / 914/ Woodcomp VP
Detroit, Mi
----- Original Message -----
From: "G-IANI" <g-iani@ntlworld.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 5:28 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: wing conduit mod
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "G-IANI" <g-iani@ntlworld.com>
>
>
> Rowland
>
> "I just checked the PFA website for the list of "standard" mods, and
> don't see anything there about wing conduits."
>
> You are right. Jeremy Davy has a mod (10713) which I started to convert
> into a standard mod last year. As the eelier standard mods had
> disappeared into a "Francis hole" ( This is a black hole that does not
> have an event horizon for the physics buffs) I stopped work on it.
>
> At the meeting I had with Francis on 29 March 2006 it was agreed
> (Rowland you have had a copy of the minutes of this meeting) that there
> was no need for a standard mod for this as Francis is satisfied that it
> is cover by "standard aircraft practice" (otherwise know as a "non
> mod"). So carry no, just carry on as long as your inspector is happy.
>
> "I think I'd like to install conduit before I close the wing, not just
> for the possibility of wingtip lights or strobes"
>
> Yes and also remember that you will need the conduit if your pitot and
> static pipes become brittle and need replacing.
>
> "also because the conduit can provide a very handy hole to insert a
> support when turning the wing over"
>
> Well not so much the conduit but a hole in the wing tip. I have a
> reinforced hole her which is finally used as the nav light mount but it
> was very handy (with a piece of curtain pole that happened to be the
> correct diameter inserted) for handling and rotating the wing during
> finishing and spraying.
>
> If you want to see what others have done I can send you some pictures
> off list.
>
>
> Ian Rickard #505 G-IANI XS Trigear
> Europa Club Mods Rep (Trigear)
> e-mail mods@europaclub.org.uk
> or direct g-iani@ntlworld.com
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Anyone install battery aft of Baggage bay bulkhead |
--> Europa-List message posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Wire weight in pounds per hundred feet:
Eric #4 Yellow Poly Vinyl TPE Property 105C
10.75
McMaster Vu-Tron#4weld1045strand Orange chlorinated polyethylene 90C
21.00
McMaster Standard#4weld406strand Black EPDM rubber105C
20.00
Spruce #4 MIL-W-22759/16 approx 133strand 25gauge 150C
16.00
McMaster Vu-Tron#6weld660strand Orange chlorinated polyethylene 90C
15.00
McMaster Standard#6weld259strand Black EPDM rubber105C
14.00
Spruce #6 MIL-W-22759/16 approx 133strand 27gauge 150C
10.50
Weight savings of Erics #4 for 25 feet:
Vu-Tron#4 2.56
Standard#4 2.31
Spruce #4 1.31
Vu-Tron#6 1.06
Standard#6 0.81
Spruce #6 (.06)
Ohms/1000@20C Voltage drop 20amps 25feet Volatge drop
60/25
Eric#4 ~.25 .125 .375
Vu-Tron ~.26 .130 .390
Standard ~.25 .125 .375
Spruce #4 ~.27 .135 .405
Vu-Tron#6 ~.44 .220 .660
Standard#6 ~.45 .225 .665
Spruce #6 ~.44 .220 .660
#6 would drop a little over a volt for 10 amps.
Ron Parigoris
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Anyone install battery aft of Baggage bay bulkhead |
--> Europa-List message posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
OOOOOOOPS thats a little over .1volts for 10 amps and #6
Ron Parigoris
On Sun, Sep 24, 2006, rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us said:
> Wire weight in pounds per hundred feet:
>
> Eric #4 Yellow Poly Vinyl TPE Property 105C
> 10.75
> McMaster Vu-Tron#4weld1045strand Orange chlorinated polyethylene 90C
> 21.00
> McMaster Standard#4weld406strand Black EPDM rubber105C
> 20.00
> Spruce #4 MIL-W-22759/16 approx 133strand 25gauge 150C
> 16.00
> McMaster Vu-Tron#6weld660strand Orange chlorinated polyethylene 90C
> 15.00
> McMaster Standard#6weld259strand Black EPDM rubber105C
> 14.00
> Spruce #6 MIL-W-22759/16 approx 133strand 27gauge 150C
> 10.50
>
>
> Weight savings of Erics #4 for 25 feet:
>
> Vu-Tron#4 2.56
> Standard#4 2.31
> Spruce #4 1.31
> Vu-Tron#6 1.06
> Standard#6 0.81
> Spruce #6 (.06)
>
> Ohms/1000@20C Voltage drop 20amps 25feet Volatge drop 60/25
> Eric#4 ~.25 .125 .375
> Vu-Tron ~.26 .130 .390
> Standard ~.25 .125 .375
> Spruce #4 ~.27 .135 .405
> Vu-Tron#6 ~.44 .220 .660
> Standard#6 ~.45 .225 .665
> Spruce #6 ~.44 .220 .660
>
> #6 would drop a little over a volt for 10 amps.
>
> Ron Parigoris
>
>
>
>
>
--
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: wing conduit mod |
Hi,
The solution worked out by Andy Draper / Barry Mellors was a 2 ply Bid
''donut ring'' around the hole on each rib, [ one side only ], Make the diameter
2'' bigger than the hole.
Get the orientation of each ply 45 degrees apart.
Easy way is wet the two plies on plastic, cut out the discs,stick it on the
smooth side of the rib [ scuff it first ? ! ], when it has cured, drill the
hole.
Main objective was to prevent the rib from '' tearing''.
Start at the root rib half way between the spar and drag pin, at half chord
position, as you work outboard, get lower in the ribs, so the conduit will
pass under the aileron pushrod, then sweep it forward as it goes thru' the last
rib, and Bid the conduit to the end of the spar.
Where it passes thru the double rib, it will be close to the lower skin, the
''donut'' will lap onto the skin itself.
The last two bays are far enough apart that it helps to support the conduit
with a piece of foam, and put a Bid lay up over it ,onto the skin, half way
along.
Scuff and flox the conduit at each rib, I tend to put a Bid tape on the
inside of the root rib, to keep it in place.
Cheers,
Nev.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: wing conduit mod |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>
Michael,
The alum. acft. ribs w/ which I am familiar have flanged lightening
holes...the pre-formed flange functioning as a web stiffener. You are
of course correct w/ regard to loads being "negligible" in this area.
Fred
A194
On Sunday, September 24, 2006, at 09:37 AM, Michael Grass wrote:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Michael Grass"
> <M.Grass@comcast.net>
>
> I question this because I believe (and not know) that the middle
> portion of the rib is only caring negligible loads. This is where our
> friends in the flying aluminum cans cut there holes to make the
> structure more lightweight.
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